Gm going downhill even more

[foff667]

found on ls1tech http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336068

footnotes: writer of story says "Toyota reportedly has enough cash on hand to buy GM's entire automotive operations outright -- and is gunning to replace GM as the world's Number One automaker within five years."

[BlueFBird]

screw toyota!

[79dizZy28]

down with toyota, unless they're gonna buy GM and just own it and do a better job :lol:

[kamikaz]

Toyota Blows :evil:

Later,

Santos

[NJSPEEDER]

what they seem to have left out of the article is that toyota would be left nearly pennyless if they even thought about buying gm.
yes, every manufacturer is aiming directly at gm. they are the biggest, and therefore the one you have to out perform. why did no one notice two months ago when an article pointed out that gm had enough cash to buy out their interests in subaru and mazda.
companies that size always have cash around to buy each other. fact is that they won't because it would leave them weak and waiting to be taken over themselves.

later
tim

[enRo]

I can see it now....


Pontiac Trans Am GTS-R

[9secfirebird]

suck it al. haha im just kiddin man.

toyota mother f-ers!!!! :twisted: :D

GM used to be great, but now have gone to hell. and laying people off because of it. thats why nobody wants to work for GM as a tech...no money in it when your doin warentee work all the time

[NJSPEEDER]

you can thank the unions for gm laying people off in the us. there is no reason for any company to pay american labor rates when they can go to a tariff free neighbor and build the same cars for $5-20 cheaper. just depends if you go north or south. unions are weaker in both directions than in the US.

either way, gm fires people and my stock goes up.

later
tim

[foff667]

you can thank the unions for gm laying people off in the us. there is no reason for any company to pay american labor rates when they can go to a tariff free neighbor and build the same cars for $5-20 cheaper. just depends if you go north or south. unions are weaker in both directions than in the US.

either way, gm fires people and my stock goes up.

later
tim

i thought their stock had low value & was now being considered a junk bond er something?

[jims69camaro]

you can thank the unions for gm laying people off in the us. there is no reason for any company to pay american labor rates when they can go to a tariff free neighbor and build the same cars for $5-20 cheaper. just depends if you go north or south. unions are weaker in both directions than in the US.

either way, gm fires people and my stock goes up.

later
tim

i thought their stock had low value & was now being considered a junk bond er something?

i've read that in more than one place, but have no substantiation other than morgan stanley's automotive analyst... ;)

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah yeah yeah...whoppty do. This has been known for soem time, but what do you expect?
Toyota has 3 chassis and 4 engines. They dont have to pay unions in America, and they can get the stupid people to spend 5-10k extra on a Prius because somehow that car is gunna save the planet.
Toyota would NEVER spend the money on GM. GM is 180* of Toyota and how they do things. That would be the dumbest move ever.
And Toyota Quality aint that great ladies and gents....so get it out of your mind.
Here is some reading material.
GM has turned around a lot...but no one has noticed and no one cares to notice. In everyones minds, its still the 1970-1980's.

Some things never change

There's a Toyota ad running currently that brags about the fact that they have eight manufacturing plants in the
U.S. building more than a million vehicles a year. The ad then finishes with some patriotic music and the statement
"Toyota - a company that has created over 200,000 U.S. jobs - a company proud to do its small part to add to the
landscape of America."

Pass the barf bag please.

Take just four or five minutes to read this article. Read some actual facts about the U.S. auto industry, not the
spin put out by those wiley Japanese.

In terms of quality, of Toyota's eight plants, their best quality ranking is 16th. Of the top 10 plants for
quality, GM has eight of the top 10 and four of the top five.

And then there's the myth of the happy, teamwork-oriented worker who labors in a unionless paradise surrounded by
caring Japanese employers who only have his or her best interest at heart.

Fact: Toyota workers work for less money and are five times more likely than a GM worker to sustain an on-the-job
injury and 10 times more likely to be injured seriously enough to lose work days.

Toyota likes to propagate the myth of their commitment to the environment as evidenced by the standard set by the
Prius. What you don't hear about are the scores of Prius owners who are extremely unhappy with the performance and
mileage of their Prius. Ads claim 60 mpg - the reality is that many Prius owners get about half that mileage -
about 36 mpg. GM has five models that get similar mileage to the Prius and carry no price premium like the Prius -
but you never read about that.


If GM had a vehicle that advertised 60 mpg but actually delivered 36 mpg, you can bet that it would be front page
news, plus a nice segment on 60 Minutes.

But I digress. My point is that there is an incredibly unfair double standard in the media these days.
Inexplicably, U.S. bashing has become the fashionable thing to do. There's no better example than the constant warm
fuzzy stories churned out regularly about Toyota's legendary teamwork, safety and quality. And yet, the facts
simply don't bear this out. The fact is that Toyota gets a free ride from our lazy and complicit media.

But it's time to separate fact from fiction. Toyota is, and has been, waging a very successful PR war with way too
much assistance from our media. This results in a skewed viewpoint that dramatically affects how buyers perceive a
new car purchase.

For instance, how many of you know that Chevrolet was the best selling passenger car brand in the U.S. last year?

How many of you know that for three years in a row, Cadillac has sold more luxury cars than anyone else - including
Lexus and BMW?

How many of you are aware that, according to J.D. Power, GM was the number one multi-line manufacturer in Sales
Satisfaction last year? Where was Toyota (including Lexus)? Seventh place.

GM was ranked second in the critical Customer Service Satisfaction index in multi-line manufacturers last year.
Where was Toyota? Fifth place.

GM's lowest quality-rated vehicle is the Pontiac Vibe, assembled in California by - you guessed it - Toyota.

While Toyota is wrapping itself in the American flag with paid advertisements and help from our incompetent media,
GM, Ford and Chrysler manufactured over 75 percent of all vehicles built in the U.S. last year. And their average
domestic content is 82 percent. Toyota's is 40 percent (Lexus is 3 percent).

Every 100 GM, Ford or Chrysler vehicles produced in the U.S. supports the livelihood of 23 full-time workers.
Conversely, every point share gained by Toyota represents 18,000 lost American jobs and countless profit dollars
that are shipped overseas to Japan.

I am not suggesting that GM, Ford or Chrysler needs your charity, but I am suggesting that you should know the
facts before you buy.

In the book "Ghost Soldiers," the author recounts the story of the Bataan Death March. When the Americans arrived
at their destination with over half of them dead due to unspeakable cruelties from their captors, the camp
commander stood on a box and shouted, "You Americans are the enemy, you will always be the enemy, one hundred years
from now we will still be enemies."

What has changed since then?

Think about that the next time you go to buy a Toyota.

[9secfirebird]

haha al where do you dig this crap up haha, man sometimes some of the stuff you manage to find to bash other manufacturers is so funny. all i did was laugh when i read that haha.

[jims69camaro]

Every 100 GM, Ford or Chrysler vehicles produced in the
U.S. supports the livelihood of 23 full-time workers.
Conversely, every point share gained by Toyota represents
18,000 lost American jobs and countless profit dollars
that are shipped overseas to Japan.

exactly.

[nj85z28]

Is anyone here actually a member of some sort of Union? If you are, then you should be just as pissed as I am for some of these comments. Unions were created to keep fair wages and to make sure benefits are paid, without them this country would not be what it was and what it is today. We have an Anti-Union President, and all of his lackeys would love nothing more than to see Unions disapear. It is a fact that since his first term, major construction has almost halted all together in the states with money or brains, including NY and NJ.

Without even realizing it, you deal with Union members everyday. How would you like it if their were no standards when you bought something from the supermarket? Places without unions are proven to have lower saftey and health standards. You be the judge, Blame the Unions, who kept this country together, or blame the real problem, the government trying to shut them down.

[skorpion317]

Is anyone here actually a member of some sort of Union? If you are, then you should be just as pissed as I am for some of these comments. Unions were created to keep fair wages and to make sure benefits are paid, without them this country would not be what it was and what it is today. We have an Anti-Union President, and all of his lackeys would love nothing more than to see Unions disapear. It is a fact that since his first term, major construction has almost halted all together in the states with money or brains, including NY and NJ.

Without even realizing it, you deal with Union members everyday. How would you like it if their were no standards when you bought something from the supermarket? Places without unions are proven to have lower saftey and health standards. You be the judge, Blame the Unions, who kept this country together, or blame the real problem, the government trying to shut them down.

Unions aren't always good things.

I've been in several. Unions do indeed try to make workplaces safer, and can help you out if you get hurt on the job.

as far as wages go, i haven't seen too many unions trying to fight for wage increases. starting at $7/hour, with a 10-cent raise after 6 months is hardly ideal.

a lot of unions today have taken some things over the top. it's no wonder that Americans are losing a ton of jobs everyday. As Tim said, what incentive is there for a comapny to pay a ton of money to workers in the U.S. when they can just go somewhere else where labor is cheaper? sure, it benefits the worker while he's working, but what good is a union when you're unemployed?

the solution to the problem isn't easy. some unions need to seriously cut back on their standards and demands. as far as safety goes, that should be a #1 priority. but certain things, like wide-ranging medical benefits, should be cut down. if you've got a serious medical problem, fine. but if you're guaranteed 12 free visits to a chiropracter every year, if you don't need one, that's an unneeded cost.

my point is, unions do both good and bad. right now, IMO, they're not helping out. the costs of benefits and such have spiraled out of control, and it's hurting companies, who in turn downsize to cut costs. If the unions really want to help out the American worker, they'll have to make some sacrifices.

[jims69camaro]

former union worker and former member of management. wanna know why those statements don't piss me off? because they are true.

unions are not what they once were, and certainly not what they were created to be. it could be said 50 years ago that a union shop was far better than non union for all of the reasons stated, but the reverse is true today. with all of the laws that are in effect that affect the workplace, the unions are little more than highly paid arbitors - in other words, babysitters.

in places where there is skilled labor - notice the oxymoron there - the starting wage is not as tempting as it once was. once you are there a while and the fringes start kicking in, then you add all of that up and it is a higher paying job than non union. it's still not a safer place to work. if it is a requirement to work on a job, then a union is little more than a paycheck siphon. if i cannot choose which is better, to be in the union or not, then it is not a democracy. unions don't find people work anymore, but they sure do attach themselves to your paycheck if you start working for a union shop.

unions are not what they once were.

[BigAls87Z28]

Without even realizing it, you deal with Union members everyday. How would you like it if their were no standards when you bought something from the supermarket? Places without unions are proven to have lower saftey and health standards. You be the judge, Blame the Unions, who kept this country together, or blame the real problem, the government trying to shut them down.

Ever go into a Wegmans? They are non-union and BLOW AWAY any standards at Stop and Shop, Shop Rite or Foodtown.

The UAW's costs tack on an extra $2-3k on to every GM car. Multiply that by how many cars they make, and see how much money GM COULD be making, and what Toyota does make.

And that article I posted, all that info can be found on JD Powers and other websites. That article is all truth, no fluf. Toyota is not the king people think they are, they just play there cards right.

[foff667]

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338176

[foff667]

Without even realizing it, you deal with Union members everyday. How would you like it if their were no standards when you bought something from the supermarket? Places without unions are proven to have lower saftey and health standards. You be the judge, Blame the Unions, who kept this country together, or blame the real problem, the government trying to shut them down.

Ever go into a Wegmans? They are non-union and BLOW AWAY any standards at Stop and Shop, Shop Rite or Foodtown.

The UAW's costs tack on an extra $2-3k on to every GM car. Multiply that by how many cars they make, and see how much money GM COULD be making, and what Toyota does make.

And that article I posted, all that info can be found on JD Powers and other websites. That article is all truth, no fluf. Toyota is not the king people think they are, they just play there cards right.

first off have YOU ever gone to wegmans...sorry but they are uber overpriced...i dont buy food because the salesman has a big smile on their face...its all about the food. If the food tastes like crap or goes bad quick I probably wont go back to a perticular store or just wont buy that specific product there.

[foff667]

and a little comment about unions...i like and dislike them...first off if your a complete dullard you still get raises every year maybe not the same as the guy thats working his ass off right next to you but they will get a raise...that complete dullard will almost never get fired...but then again the guy working his ass off probably wont either. On a good note if your in a decent union they will fight for you & your rights and again its nice to know what your raise is going to be year in and year out...im basically guaranteed 7% for the next 3 years until our contract is up. The only downside to unions is they can overpower a company/organization without the company knowing it for many years & then at the worst possible time can backfire on them...like in gm's case with the healthcare crap...they pay for healthcare for over 1/2 a million people that are retired lol at like $5k per person...thats alot of money considering they only employ 160k currently. As some may know I work for the state & im sure you all know how many days i get off 15 sick, 12 vacation, 3 adm. leave., 13 holidays...add that all up and even in my first year its probably more then anyone in here...im not bragging, personally i think its rediculous that I get this many days off and even my bosses do but if the state doesnt fight the union we'll keep getting it who the hell could use 15 sick days a year...oh and they keep rolling over & when you retire you get to keep a good portion of it...county workers can trade in their left over sick for $ in their check so they have it even better in that respect. I wont even go into my pension :roll: Bottom line is until the companies start catching on and realizing its getting too expensive theres going to be issues.

[LS1Hawk]

I can see it now....


Pontiac Trans Am GTS-R

Oh God, please no ...

[LS1Hawk]

I've also heard that Toyota is notorious for using referbished parts if something breaks or goes wrong on your car.

[foff667]

i think 9secfirebird works as a tech for a toyota dealership maybe he can clear that myth up?

[nj85z28]

If union workers are such pieces of ****, then how come almost every prevailing wage job, union workers are there? Because if they werent there, they would still have to pay someone else the same amount of money. The answer is this- in a real union, such as the IBEW, you are required to have 2000 working hours a year, a 5 year apprennticeship including a thousand school hours a year. So go ahead, support these ******** and their right to work act, allowing scabs to crawl all over the state, because at the end of the day, Im getting my guaranteed raise on June 1, because myself and my brother union men are smarter, better trained and more efficent than the competition.

[NJSPEEDER]

If union workers are such pieces of ****, then how come almost every prevailing wage job, union workers are there?

because the the expenses of operating the union and paying teh employee make jobs expensive

So go ahead, support these ******** and their right to work act, allowing scabs to crawl all over the state, because at the end of the day, Im getting my guaranteed raise on June 1, because myself and my brother union men are smarter, better trained and more efficent than the competition.

training is a good thing. the union in question here has nothing to do with that though.
assembly line work is not a specialized and highly skilled field. there may be some skill required to do a specific job here and there, but for teh most part it is a guy standing there screwing in a seat belt at a time.
why should i pay that guy $20+/hr? why would i have an automatic raise schedule for him without adding to his responsibilities or requiring him to prove anything to learn more? why woudl i let him move up in rank on the line just for not quiting or falling over dead(seniority)?

without any incentive to work better or cheaper most people won't. that is where the union fails in a plant enviroment.
with a skilled type labor like you work in that will obviously be different. you have to take tests and actually learn more to move up in your trade.

later
tim

[9secfirebird]

na they dont use refurbished parts, the only time they do is when you have a high milage warentee of a transmission, which is remanufactured yes, but its also for a high milage car. and we do however offer the replacement option for a customer pay thing. like the customer can tell us if he/she wants a reman unit or a new one when it comes to an item like a starter. but no, everything that is replaced under warentee or other is new. only exceptions really are trans and starter.
there is a certin budget for every dealership thats built in...for warentee work. so like we might have 20K a year that we can use for cash to warentee items, so when it comes to something for a high milage warentee (100K extended warentee) we might use a reman transmission. but they are not remanufactured from individual people, like aftermarket parts,a ll the parts get shipped back to toyota where the same people who build the new transmissions rebuild these.
:) now get back to it guys. haha

[skorpion317]

If union workers are such pieces of ****, then how come almost every prevailing wage job, union workers are there?

who said union workers are pieces of ****?

the workers themselves aren't. it's the union officials who are screwing things up. it's not every union, though. certain unions (like the UAW) are really hurting companies like GM. sooner or later drastic measures are going to have to be taken. If the UAW really wants to protect it's workers, it'll sacrifice some of the benefits that they've jacked up.

[foff667]

If union workers are such pieces of ****, then how come almost every prevailing wage job, union workers are there?

who said union workers are pieces of ****?

the workers themselves aren't. it's the union officials who are screwing things up. it's not every union, though. certain unions (like the UAW) are really hurting companies like GM. sooner or later drastic measures are going to have to be taken. If the UAW really wants to protect it's workers, it'll sacrifice some of the benefits that they've jacked up.

its not just the union...remember the company at some point agreed to whatever they are getting now.