THE biggest online debate ever?

[Rob WS6]

Ok, so this is going around the 'net. HUGE threads of people arguing back and forth...

A plane is standing on a runway that can move (some sort of band conveyer). The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction. This conveyer has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyer to be exactly the same (but in opposite direction).

The question is:

Will the plane take off or not? Will it be able to run up and take off?

The plane WILL take off. The wheels do not affect the thrust of the airplane, they just support it. People cant seem to grasp the concept that they are free rotating wheels and this is not a wind tunnel we are talking about.

[oh one ls1 SS]

im probally going to sound like a stupid POS but is the plane going to be moving??

[Ian]

I would think the opposite. Yes there is thrust being generated, but there is no air moving over and under the wings. Its like saying the plane is bolted directly to the ground and it tried to take off.


Now see what you've done! we're gonna start debating about it here!

[oh one ls1 SS]

haha thats what i was thinking the plane needs to be moving if it has thrust but its not moving then its like it has the brakes on

[Teds89IROC]

I say no for the reasons Ian said. The airplane isn't actually moving through the air.

~Ted

[GP99GT]

the plane will move, the wheels will be going a million miles an hour though. keep in mind, the plane isnt driven by the wheels, it just rolls on them...the thrust will still push the plane

[oh one ls1 SS]

but the "runway" will be moving in the opposit direction so the plane isnt moving its sitting in the same spot creating thrust hense.. plane isnt moving

[Teds89IROC]

idiot! It will move, just that the wheels will be moving in the opposite direction :doh:

~Ted

[Ian]

the plane will move, the wheels will be going a million miles an hour though. keep in mind, the plane isnt driven by the wheels, it just rolls on them...the thrust will still push the plane

but the plane will not move through the air. It NEEDS air under the wings to take off. I can run 15 mph on a treadmill, but after an hour of doing so, I'm still on the treadmill, not 15 miles away. you see what I'm saying? the thrust is only half of what makes the plane take off, the other half is air flow across the wings creating a hig pressure area under the wing and a low pressure area above it....or vice versa, I dont really remember.

[ar0ck]

I think that the plane will not generate lift. The plane has to be going in a forward motion at a high rate of speed to generate it. But if the track is moving at the same speed the jet will not move anywhere. Yes it is just rolling on the wheels but it has to go somewhere but it wont!

[oh one ls1 SS]

i think we found out why this is the biggest debate

[Ian]

i think we found out why this is the biggest debate

It's not even an issue. I'm right. 8)

[Teds89IROC]

the actual jet has nothing to do with the wheels. The plane will move forward and accelerate moving through the air but the wheels will be moving in the opposite direction

~Ted

[oh one ls1 SS]

correction... WE are right

[Ian]

the actual jet has nothing to do with the wheels. The plane will move forward and accelerate moving through the air but the wheels will be moving in the opposite direction

~Ted

are you saying it will take off? because if you are, you're wrong.

[Ian]

correction... WE are right

:werd:

[Teds89IROC]

yes, it will take off. the speed of the conveyer/wheels has nothing to do with the speed/thrust/acceleration of the plane. They are free rotating wheels, they will just be moving in the opposite direction that the plane is moving. YOU are wrong

~Ted

[oh one ls1 SS]

how is it moving?? its ike Ian said its like its on a tredmill its not moving just the wheels and convayer are plane is stationary

[Ian]

The plane will not move even an inch forward from where it was resting before it tried to take off. because it started from a standstill, all the planes weight is supported by the wheels. therefore, when it goes to take off, all the weight will stay on the wheels. it is not moving through the air! If you took a crane and dropped a string with a weight from it to meet the very tip of the nose of the plane, it will not move the entire time because there is no airflow under the wings. Airflow is the key to lift off. Push all you want, but if there isnt any air flowing across the wings, the plane is staying on the ground.

[Ian]

so you're saying if I'm running 15 mph on a treadmill, creating thrust and all that good stuff, that I'll have 15 mph worth of wind in my face?

[oh one ls1 SS]

:stupid:

[Teds89IROC]

so you're saying if I'm running 15 mph on a treadmill, creating thrust and all that good stuff, that I'll have 15 mph worth of wind in my face?

If your feet are detached from your body and you can move without friction, yes.

~Ted

[Ian]

Okay, I got another one. Try running on a treadmill with a kite and try to make it fly. yeah, you're running, but there sure as hell isnt any airflow. same thing as what the plane is doing

[Teds89IROC]

how is it moving?? its ike Ian said its like its on a tredmill its not moving just the wheels and convayer are plane is stationary

who said the plane is stationary?

~Ted

[Ian]

unless I'm missing the part where they said it was a harrier jet doing all this, it wont take off, you need two things to make a plane take off and one directly affects the other. you need thrust to generate airflow. if you are thrusting, but not moving anywhere, there is no air flow and there is no flight.

[Ian]

the statement says the plane is "standing" on a runway. my interperetation of standing is not moving.

[oh one ls1 SS]

This conveyer has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyer to be exactly the same (but in opposite direction).

the convayer moving one way and the wheels moving the other way cancel eachother out so the plane just sits there as the wheels and convayer are the only things moving which goes back to the tredmill concept

[GP99GT]

ok, heres one for you. take a model car, with wheels that roll, put it on a treadmill. theres no real engine in it to drive the WHEELS, so you have to push it with your hand to make it move forward on the treadmill. same concept as jet engines on a plane, they will push the plane forward, because the wheels are rolling free underneath the plane.

[Teds89IROC]

you're right, you need thrust and airflow. If the wheels of the plane were what was moving the plane across the ground in the first place, you would be correct, it would not take off. Being that the wheels only assist in moving the plane and are free rolling with no emphasis on direction, they have nothing to do with the thrust of the plane, they are negligable. Their only purpose is to fight friction and allow the plane to be moved, they don't push the plane.

~Ted

[oh one ls1 SS]

but once again it says that the convayer match's the speed of the plane's engins so how does it move?

[Ian]

ok, heres one for you. take a model car, with wheels that roll, put it on a treadmill. theres no real engine in it to drive the WHEELS, so you have to push it with your hand to make it move forward on the treadmill. same concept as jet engines on a plane, they will push the plane forward, because the wheels are rolling free underneath the plane.

but in the statement it says that the tredmill will be going the exact speed of the plane, as soon as the plane creeps forward a centimeter, the tredmill starts and the plane stops moving forward.

[oh one ls1 SS]

:popcorn: i think Rob WS6 is just sittng back laughing at this

[Ian]

you're right, you need thrust and airflow. If the wheels of the plane were what was moving the plane across the ground in the first place, you would be correct, it would not take off. Being that the wheels only assist in moving the plane and are free rolling with no emphasis on direction, they have nothing to do with the thrust of the plane, they are negligable. Their only purpose is to fight friction and allow the plane to be moved, they don't push the plane.

~Ted

please explain to me how the plane will move forward and get air to move across the wings. I'm dying to see this from your point of view.

[oh one ls1 SS]

DUDE!! because the wheels are moving DUHH!! haha

[Teds89IROC]

I think anyone with a brain is laughing at you and Ian :razz: :lol:

~Ted

[GP99GT]

no matter how fast the conveyor moves, there will still be the same minimal friction to stop the plane from moving, because it has wheels. thats the point of the wheels, so it can move freely using engine power.

[Teds89IROC]

I don't know how else to explain it, if you don;t understand it now, I guess you never will. THE WHEELS MOVE FREELY AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SPEED OF THE ACTUAL PLANE ON A CONVEYER MOVING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION!!!!!

~Ted

[Ian]

I think anyone with a brain is laughing at you and Ian :razz: :lol:

~Ted

Hey hey, no low shots. keep this focused on the question.

[oh one ls1 SS]

yes but it has to move foward on solid ground (or water) in orfer to get the airflow damn it!!

[Ian]

okay, so you're saying that the plane will move forward. You also say that the wheels dont matter at all. I understand that the wheels are designed to reduce friction for takeoff, but at the same time, they support the entire weight of the plane. I dont understand how it will remove the entire weight of the plane off the wheels while on a treadmill.

[oh one ls1 SS]

the wheels are just letting the plane sit there because there the only things moving in the wheels were locked up the plane will move backwards but since there free to spin there just letting the plane sit there... put rollerblades on a tredmill and turn it on whats going to happen if you do what the plane does... therotically speaking if you push foward on the rollerblade then the speed of the tredmill increases so your right back to where you started from

[GP99GT]

It will move forward, it will still be on the conveyor. theres no friction to move the plane backwards as the plane thrusts forward, because the jet engines are pushing the plane, not the wheels

[Ian]

OH!!!!! I understand what you mean now ted, but it still doesnt work because there is no airflow.

[oh one ls1 SS]

true but how does the air flow get factored in?? the plane needs to be moving

[GP99GT]

the plane will be moving, because the conveyor wont affect the thrust of hte plane, because theres no friction, because its rolling on wheels. end of discussion

[Ian]

If it was in a wind tunnel with air flowing over the wings, it would take off, but the question says its not in a wind tunnel so its not gonna take off.

[Ian]

there is ALWAYS friction! unless you're in a vacuum, there will always be friction. It takes lift to get the wheels off the ground, to get lift you need airflow. If you're starting from a dead standstill, the plane wont take off unless its in a wind tunnel.

[Ian]

I'll be back in a little bit, I have to go out to the ATM. keep up the debate, this is fun. :)

[GP99GT]

there is ALWAYS friction! unless you're in a vacuum, there will always be friction. It takes lift to get the wheels off the ground, to get lift you need airflow. If you're starting from a dead standstill, the plane wont take off unless its in a wind tunnel.

ok theres a LITTLE friction, but minimal. the plane WILL be moving, there WILL be airflow. because it can roll, the conveyors speed will not change its ability to move forward using thrust.

[oh one ls1 SS]

im done with the debate 4 now i got Need 4 Speed to play i need to rice out my supra a little more!! hopefully we get some more people in on this

[ar0ck]

I think this is more of a Debacle then a debate.

[Savage_Messiah]

http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums/images/smilies/gives.gif

[oh one ls1 SS]

call it what you want.. the plane wount take off :D

[Teds89IROC]

I have an R/C plane, lets go get a treadmill and try it in the spring lol

~Ted

[Rob WS6]

LOL damn this exploded fast. The plane WILL take off, and here is why:

The wheels are neutral. They have no affect on the plane aside from physically keeping it off the ground, they are free rotating. They offer no resistance besides frictional aspects. The thrusters will push the plane foreward; the wheels will be doing twice the speed of the acual plane. The plane will move foreward fast enough to generate enough lift for take off.

[V]

It will take off, think about it, thrust is gonna move the plane regarless of the surface below. it could be treadmill, ice, or magnetic levitaion. With the free rolling wheels of the plane, the speend will increase exponentialy as the thrust increases. and the treadmill will increase just as fast, but within a short time the thrust of the engine will get the airplane airborne. To better explain this, think of a prop driven plane, the propellors actually move the plane forward by pulling the plane through the air as the props turn so no matter how fast the wheels roll in any direction, the plane will still be pulled forward in the air by the propellors. A very similar thing would happen with the concept of a jet engine, a turbine engine use thrust to "push" on the air behind the plane, therefore moving the plane. so here also the plane would move forward cause it is "pushing off" of the air behind it and the free-rolling wheels would just spin up at an incrediable rate along with the treadmill until lift off, so my final conclusiion is that the plane would take off.

[Ian]

okay, now someone explain to me why the plane wont just stay in one spot.

*edit*

my thinking was: the weight of the plane is on the wheels. if the groung below the plane moves in the opposite direction, the plane has to work against it. I thought that if the treadmill matched the speed of the plane, it would never move forward and therefore never get any air under the wings and never take off.

[GP99GT]

For a more down to earth example...

Take a toy car, no motors, 4 wheels that just roll. hold it on a moving treadmill with your hand - speeds are matched at that point. No matter how fast that treadmill is moving, it still takes the same amount of power from your hand to move that car forward on the treadmill - apply that concept to the plane.

im going to sleep.

[qwikz28]

the plane cannot take off. the plane needs a certain amount of airflow to LIFT the plane which it will not get from standing still

[oh one ls1 SS]

:scratch: i understand both sides and right now i wish the plane would just blow up (with no passangers and crewmembers ofcourse)

[Ian]

For a more down to earth example...

Take a toy car, no motors, 4 wheels that just roll. hold it on a moving treadmill with your hand - speeds are matched at that point. No matter how fast that treadmill is moving, it still takes the same amount of power from your hand to move that car forward on the treadmill - apply that concept to the plane.

im going to sleep.

see there ya go. should have just said that from the begining! I got it now. I feel like a moron, but i got it. :lol:

[oh one ls1 SS]

[QUOTE=GP99GT]For a more down to earth example...

Take a toy car, no motors, 4 wheels that just roll. hold it on a moving treadmill with your hand - speeds are matched at that point. No matter how fast that treadmill is moving, it still takes the same amount of power from your hand to move that car forward on the treadmill - apply that concept to the plane.QUOTE]


but its different the plane has a motor to push it under its own power

[GP99GT]

the plane cannot take off. the plane needs a certain amount of airflow to LIFT the plane which it will not get from standing still

read my above post....it can still move forward, because it will take the same amount of thrust no matter how fast the conveyor underneath is moving.

this time im really going to bed

[qwikz28]

read my above post....it can still move forward, because it will take the same amount of thrust no matter how fast the conveyor underneath is moving.

this time im really going to bed
moving forward is not lift off. and it already used all its thrust on moving it to the same speed as the belt. and the belt will accelerate with it. no take off.

[GP99GT]

but its different the plane has a motor to push it under its own power

yes, that planes motor = your hand in my example. it can move forward because it has a force pushing it, just liek your hand pushes the car forward, not the wheels.

let me go to sleep, please?

[oh one ls1 SS]

and whats wrong with the way they take off now?? seems to be working fine

[GP99GT]

moving forward is not lift off.

moving forward would create lift which = liftoff

[Rob WS6]

I just came to a realization... this is in a way, a trick question. The only way to measure the speed of a plane is its movement from one physical point to another. If the conveyor is moving 10mph backwards, then the plane HAS to be moving 10mph forward. If the conveyor is moving to match the speed of the plane, then the plane MUST be in equal opposing motion. The plane can never be stationary and the conveyor be moving, or this quesion is null and void all together.

[qwikz28]

but it wont move forward still cause the belt will accelerate as well

conclusion: the original statement is too vague and damn the man who created it

[GP99GT]

I just came to a realization... this is in a way, a trick question. The only way to measure the speed of a plane is its movement from one physical point to another. If the conveyor is moving 10mph backwards, then the plane HAS to be moving 10mph forward. If the conveyor is moving to match the speed of the plane, then the plane MUST be in equal opposing motion. The plane can never be stationary and the conveyor be moving, or this quesion is null and void all together.

no...the plane can be stationary, but the wheels underneath it cannot be. the plane doesnt have to move for the wheels to move

[GP99GT]

but it wont move forward still cause the belt will accelerate as well

conclusion: the original statement is too vague and damn the man who created it


yes it will, if you read my example, it takes the same amount of thrust to move the plane, no matter how fast the surface underneath is moving in the opposite direction

[Ian]

but its different the plane has a motor to push it under its own power

It would be a better example to use a toy plane rather than a toy car. say the toy plane is held on the treadmill and the treadmill is accellerated. you holding the plane there is acting as thrust, all you have to do is push it forward with a little more thrust and it will move forward on the treadmill. at that point the treadmill will go faster, but because the thrust isnt coming from the wheels of the plane, it doesnt really matter. the wheels are just along for the ride. If the wheels were the ones driving the plane, it would matter becuase then there would be a ton of friction and it would never out run the treadmill. eventually the plane will get going fast enough to get air under the wings and take off.


very tricky question for a dumb person like me. Obviously it was cake walk for you edjumacated people. :wink:

[oh one ls1 SS]

i was thinking of it was a car with the motor powering the wheels.. not of a plane where the engin has nothing to do with the wheels i see what u guy's are talkinga bout but im still confused

[Rob WS6]

no...the plane can be stationary, but the wheels underneath it cannot be. the plane doesnt have to move for the wheels to move

The question states that it tracks the planes speed and applies equal reverse speed to the conveyor, and you DO NOT measure the speed of an airplane by the wheels.

[qwikz28]

It would be a better example to use a toy plane rather than a toy car. say the toy plane is held on the treadmill and the treadmill is accellerated. you holding the plane there is acting as thrust, all you have to do is push it forward with a little more thrust and it will move forward on the treadmill. at that point the treadmill will go faster, but because the thrust isnt coming from the wheels of the plane, it doesnt really matter. the wheels are just along for the ride. If the wheels were the ones driving the plane, it would matter becuase then there would be a ton of friction and it would never out run the treadmill. eventually the plane will get going fast enough to get air under the wings and take off.


very tricky question for a dumb person like me. Obviously it was cake walk for you edjumacated people. :wink:
ooooo i get it now. i read it as, no matter what speed the plane goes, the belt will accelerate for it and not allow it to move. i still read it as that but i at least understand what you guys mean now.

[oh one ls1 SS]

thanks for posting a min. before me ian make me look like a jackass by saying what u said

[Ian]

The question states that it tracks the planes speed and applies equal reverse speed to the conveyor, and you DO NOT measure the speed of an airplane by the wheels.


AHHH, very good point.

so if it really did operate off the planes speed, the belt would start and when the plane stopped moving, the belt would stop, but then the plane would start moving again so it would start up again. I knew there was a reason I went to school for cars and not planes. :lol:

[Ian]

thanks for posting a min. before me ian make me look like a jackass by saying what u said

no problem buddy :wink:

[oh one ls1 SS]

i did to much thinking for one night back to need 4 speed!!

[Tsar]

Nahh it wont take off. There will be no lift. The air has to be moving beneath the wings of the airplane to generate lift and for an airplane to take flight. There's also that whole drag thing that i think people forgot to mention. Lift has to overcome drag for the airplane to take off. There wont be either of those because the airplane is stationary on the belt however. Later induced drag doesnt matter as much, and you should be more converned with parasite drag. So plane on a conveyer belt = no lift = airplane just sits there. Even if you increase the angle of attack (up to a certain point) on the airplane that is sitting on a conveyer belt which techincally requires less speed for it to take off it still wont, because the greater the angle of attack the more induced drag you have.

[JL8Jeff]

It won't take off. You need the wings moving through the air to create lift and the wings are sitting still on the treadmill. And if it did work, the military would be using it already!

[Tsar]

It won't take off. You need the wings moving through the air to create lift and the wings are sitting still on the treadmill. And if it did work, the military would be using it already!
:werd: i guess thats why they came up with a vertical take off airplanes and not conveyer driven type take off.

[trashman01]

:scratch: i understand both sides and right now i wish the plane would just blow up (with no passangers and crewmembers ofcourse)

QFT

[its Jeanne-Marie]

At JM's place

Once the plane has some force pushing it forward, the wheels will just spin with the conveyer. If they measure the speed of the plane and apply that to the conveyer, the wheels will just be moving at an incredibl speed in the opposite direction. The only force the plane needs to overcome is the friction between the tires and the conveyer. If the wheels were directly linked to the planes jets/motor, then it would not work, but since they are not, the plane can still move forward.

~Ted

[badzracing]

Just turn the goddamn plane around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GP99GT]

the plane will take off, the end. everyone is thinking of it as if it were a car where the WHEELS are what drives it, which would mean it would stay stationary. but thats not the case here, the plane will move forward, create lift, take off. and the wheels will probably be going 1000mph by the time it gets to takeoff speed but that doesnt matter

[GP99GT]

The only way the plane could move forward would be if you turned off the conveyer. As long as the plane is sitting on the conveyer not moving, there is no airflow across the wings and therefore no lift, no takeoff.

thats where youre all wrong.

the plane WILL move, because the wheels arent whats holding it back - they dont drive the plane. read my example on page 3 and it should make sense, im tired of this debate lol

[12secondv6]

Can you find a conveyer that can handle that weight? ;)

[GP99GT]

You're missing it completely. If the conveyer moves backwards at the same speed the plane is accelerating forward then the plane itself isn't moving. It has nothing to do with wheels or friction. The plane is riding on it's wheels as it tries to move forward but the conveyer is counteracting the forward roll. So the plane stays in the same place. It's the same as me getting on my bike and riding it on a treadmill(which I do, we have a bike roller setup). I'm sitting in my living room doing 25 mph on the treadmill but there's no breeze blowing on me. So the plane would be in the same situation, no air across the wings, no lift. I know you'll get it eventually!:rolleyes:

youre the one thats missing it.

You can ride your bike like that on a treadmill, because the wheels on your bike are what move it, they drive it forward, they push off the surface in order to move. thats why you stay stationary. With a plane, it pushes off the air by using jet engines/a propellor, so the wheels underneath have no effect on the speed of the plane.

Say the plane is going 300mph at takeoff, that would mean the conveyor is moving 300mph int he opposite direction, making the effective speed of the wheels 600mph. this is because the plane isnt driven by the wheels! youll get it eventually. :)

[GP99GT]

here, this is what a guy on anti-rice posted. He gets it.

Agreed, the plane would take off. The airspeed of the plane has no relation on the speed of the wheels, who cares how fast they are moving. The speed of the wheels and the thrust coming from the turbines is independent. There is no relation to how fast the plane is moving through the air and how fast the wheels are moving. Here is how it would happen...

At first when the engines were starting to spool up and the plane was just crawling the conveyor would keep it in place. The natural friction of the wheels against the ground and moving parts/bearings would be enough to make it keep pace with the system. Very soon though the thrust from the engines would overtake the friction against the wheels, no matter how fast they were spinning, and the plane would begin to move forward. Its very simple.

If a plane were flying in air and the wheels were spinning 100,000 rpm in the opposite direction do you think it would have any effect on the airspeed? This is effectively the same thing. Imagine if the belt wasn't even there, because the speed of the wheels is irrelevant to the speed of the plane...

[Savage_Messiah]

once again I say...http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums/images/smilies/gives.gif

now this **** in on FTV6 too

[its Jeanne-Marie]

hi, i'm gonna cut the wheels off. bye.

[jims69camaro]

it will not take off. using the example from the other board, he is saying the engine will eventually move the plane forward, but this is an impossibility. it goes against physics.

if all the conveyor did was keep pace with the wheels, then it could be true, but it doesn't say that - it says the conveyor will move at a speed equal to the plane's speed, which will keep the plane stationary. if the plane is stationary, then it cannot take off.

good thing some of you went to college. but i think some of you need to ask for a refund...

[GP99GT]

If the plane is stationary...then the conveyor wouldnt be moving.

[NJSPEEDER]

but the plane will not move through the air. It NEEDS air under the wings to take off. I can run 15 mph on a treadmill, but after an hour of doing so, I'm still on the treadmill, not 15 miles away. you see what I'm saying? the thrust is only half of what makes the plane take off, the other half is air flow across the wings creating a hig pressure area under the wing and a low pressure area above it....or vice versa, I dont really remember.

it is a very simple concept. if you are running on a treadmill it is your feet that is keeping pace with the treadmill.
in teh case of an airplane the wheels just sit and spin freely at whatever pace the ground under them dictates.
the thrust force of the jet engines works independantly of the wheels. it will push the plane forward regardless fo what the ground beneath the plane is doing and whatever effect that ground has on the wheels.
the plane would move forward and take off as if the conveyor system wasn't there. the only effect you would see is if you tracked the wheel speeds they woudl actually be spinning at twice teh speed of the air plane during acceleration, which doesn't matter since the wheels are jsut free spinning like roller skate wheels anyway.
and as a side note, it is actually the low pressure area above a wing that creates lift, not the force under teh wing.

[95firebirdconvertible]

I am going to try it. I will give ya'll the results.

[enRo]

Who gives a ****? Does this plane have a hover engine? If so, its gonna take off :-D

[ryanfx]

Well that pissed me off - I typed this huge thing and then it got erased when an error occured trying to post it... so i'll type it again.


This answer all lays within one factor - how much thrust the plane is capable of generating.

Think of a conventional spaceship, if you will.

There is zero air flow, however it is able to propel itself off of the ground.

How? you ask?

Because the über ammount of thrust it is capable of generating is more than its weight in pounds on the earth.

This is however untrue with conventional airplanes. They require a magical element called lift, which allows it to 'cheat' physics and transfer current horizontal energy into vertical energy.

So theoretically - if an airplane were capable of carrying a payload great enough to propel itself into the air, without the use of lift then yes =D it will fly

in real life terms, an airplane is not capable of this. Simply because of weight and monetary issues - who would not want to use lift when you had it available to you?

If you put a SAM missile on wheels, and put it in the same scenario, I would highly doubt any of you would question one another - do you catch my drift?

[Koll]

There isnt any lift being generated so no

[/thread]

[Koll]

the plane will move, the wheels will be going a million miles an hour though. keep in mind, the plane isnt driven by the wheels, it just rolls on them...the thrust will still push the plane

Thrust doesnt lift the plane :tard:

[Ian]

it is a very simple concept. if you are running on a treadmill it is your feet that is keeping pace with the treadmill.
in teh case of an airplane the wheels just sit and spin freely at whatever pace the ground under them dictates.
the thrust force of the jet engines works independantly of the wheels. it will push the plane forward regardless fo what the ground beneath the plane is doing and whatever effect that ground has on the wheels.
the plane would move forward and take off as if the conveyor system wasn't there. the only effect you would see is if you tracked the wheel speeds they woudl actually be spinning at twice teh speed of the air plane during acceleration, which doesn't matter since the wheels are jsut free spinning like roller skate wheels anyway.
and as a side note, it is actually the low pressure area above a wing that creates lift, not the force under teh wing.

thanks tim, but matt already explained it to me.

[Firebird67dude]

I didnt bother reading the whole thread but did anybody think that the plane engines suck the air in and thrust it out??? the conveyer belt would need to be mad big, like mmmmmm, onec the boost from the plane's engine reachesland that isnt the belt it would move. how bout this.....hahahhahaha.... move the is it a jet plane or a prop driven plane? The prop driven plane would fly away, but the jet plane would not. bIf it was a jet plane itd be traveling at -100 mph not matter wat speed if the conveyer belt was goin the same exact speed but in the opposite direction.

[95firebirdconvertible]

Did anyone else realize that this is a trick thread?

[Teds89IROC]

The plane's speed has nothing to do with the speed of the wheels. The plane can be traveling at 500 mph ground speed and the wheels can be moving 2 mph, they are not dependent upon each other.

~Ted

[oh one ls1 SS]

if the plane will take off using the convayer system..whats the point? i dont know if the plane will take off or not but it will move now that i think about it the wheels have nothing to do with the speed because thats now what powers the plane to move.. like everyone else said like i said yesterday... if it aint broke dont fix it

[V]

lol i think its funny that this "debate" has gotten this far. The plane will move forward, it will take off. propellor or jet driven planes move upon the principal of a force acting upon the surrounding air, the status of the wheels does not matter.

say they are measuring air speed of the plane, we'll say 50mph just as an example, ok so now the belt is going 50 mph in the opposite direction, the planes wheels will now be going 50mph+50mph(or 2x the speed of the belt) so therefore 100mph forward. However the plane is still moving 50mph forward. True even at lower speeds which would allow for the acceleration to the speed needed for lift off.
Plane=1mph, belt=1mph, wheels=2mph .... overall movement +1mph
Plane=2mph, Belt=2mph, Wheels=4mph .... overall movement +2mph
...etc...
xP(plane)=xB(belt)=2xW(wheels) x=mph

just keep in mind that this "treadmill" will need to be the length of a runway at least to keep the idea of the belt vs wheels going, otherwise the plane will move right off it.

yeah i know no one will understand this...but oh well, keep thinking the plane will sit in one place. its like saying a jet engine car will have traction problems. lol

[Koll]

lol i think its funny that this "debate" has gotten this far. The plane will move forward, it will take off. propellor or jet driven planes move upon the principal of a force acting upon the surrounding air, the status of the wheels does not matter.

say they are measuring air speed of the plane, we'll say 50mph just as an example, ok so now the belt is going 50 mph in the opposite direction, the planes wheels will now be going 50mph+50mph(or 2x the speed of the belt) so therefore 100mph forward. However the plane is still moving 50mph forward. True even at lower speeds which would allow for the acceleration to the speed needed for lift off.
Plane=1mph, belt=1mph, wheels=2mph .... overall movement +1mph
Plane=2mph, Belt=2mph, Wheels=4mph .... overall movement +2mph
...etc...
xP(plane)=xB(belt)=2xW(wheels) x=mph

just keep in mind that this "treadmill" will need to be the length of a runway at least to keep the idea of the belt vs wheels going, otherwise the plane will move right off it.

yeah i know no one will understand this...but oh well, keep thinking the plane will sit in one place. its like saying a jet engine car will have traction problems. lol


...........no

[jims69camaro]

forget the wheels, already. they have nothing to do with the plane's speed.

[qwikz28]

i'm not gonna lie. the only thing i dont understand is why the belt cant continue to accelerate even though its not the wheels propelling it? i understand that the wheels dont involve the motion but the belt does and that can move at any speed so wouldnt that counteract the thrust reguardless?

[Tsar]

i'm not gonna lie. the only thing i dont understand is why the belt cant continue to accelerate even though its not the wheels propelling it? i understand that the wheels dont involve the motion but the belt does and that can move at any speed so wouldnt that counteract the thrust reguardless?
i was thinking the same. i know wheels dont measure the airplanes speed. Thats what ram air and pitot tube are for. So how can an airplane take off at 0 airspeed? If conveyer belt has an X speed that means it will counteract ANY speed produced by the thrusters or props. That will result at 0 airspeed and from my experiences while flying airplanes they simply dont take off at 0 airspeed, ever. Maybe someone can show it to me?

[Tru2Chevy]

I didn't hear the full explanation that he gave, however Scott's (96ImpSS) brother is an Aeronautical (sp?) Engineer for NASA, and we asked him this question last night. According to him, the plane would not take off, as long as the conveyor was measuring the speed of plane and matching it in the opposite direction.

- Justin

[Tsar]

I didn't hear the full explanation that he gave, however Scott's (96ImpSS) brother is an Aeronautical (sp?) Engineer for NASA, and we asked him this question last night. According to him, the plane would not take off, as long as the conveyor was measuring the speed of plane and matching it in the opposite direction.

- Justin
Thanks, we win!

[qwikz28]

I didn't hear the full explanation that he gave, however Scott's (96ImpSS) brother is an Aeronautical (sp?) Engineer for NASA, and we asked him this question last night. According to him, the plane would not take off, as long as the conveyor was measuring the speed of plane and matching it in the opposite direction.

- Justin
cause even if the thrust moves the plane not the wheels, the wheels still continue to move. now if the wheels/belt are held at a constant speed and then you ask if the plane can still take off, thats a different question.

i still say damn the man who made this trick question!

[Firebird67dude]

I say we just call myth busters and myb if they do this one of them will die... and i will LAUGH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[jims69camaro]

the conveyor was measuring the speed of plane and matching it in the opposite direction.

- Justin

my point exactly. i didn't have years of school and then years of work experience to determine that, either...

[Rob WS6]

I didn't hear the full explanation that he gave, however Scott's (96ImpSS) brother is an Aeronautical (sp?) Engineer for NASA, and we asked him this question last night. According to him, the plane would not take off, as long as the conveyor was measuring the speed of plane and matching it in the opposite direction.

- Justin

And now I have just about lost all faith in NASA. Your kidding me, right? I mean really, you ARE joking?

[Savage_Messiah]

:threadsu:

[Firebird67dude]

Sorry for the double post but here..... The plane would be moving backwards at 100mph bcuz: the conveyer belt is moving north at 300mph, plane speed is south at 300mph plane is not moving. the speed would balance themselves out. The plane needs lift under the wings which is air speed. It is not getting it with a jet engine, a prop driven plane would get lift bcuz the prop causes wind speed over the wing causing lift.





BIOTCH

[Tsar]

Sorry for the double post but here..... The plane would be moving backwards at 100mph bcuz: the conveyer belt is moving north at 300mph, plane speed is south at 300mph plane is not moving. the speed would balance themselves out. The plane needs lift under the wings which is air speed. It is not getting it with a jet engine, a prop driven plane would get lift bcuz the prop causes wind speed over the wing causing lift.





BIOTCH
it still wont take off. I can sit on the ramp and redline the engine all day long and if my airspeed indicator reads zero the plane will be on the ground. And you that do as a part of "before take off" checklist.

[Kojak]

Wow I cant believe I read it all... and I am a bit confused, I understand why the guys who think it will take off think that it will take off, and it seems like they could be right but,

No matter how much I want to see it take off I don’t think it will because the wheels are relevant to the plane on take off. As long as the treadmill is balancing out the speed of the tires of the plane, which have nothing to do with airspeed, it will stay grounded. In order for flight you need thrust and lift, in this situation their will be tons and tons of thrust but no lift because the plane will not be moving foreword...

And yeah F The Plane..!

[Kojak]

The only way i could see it taking off is if the treadmill wasn't attached to the ground, so it could move with the plane.

[Kojak]

You know Chuck Norris once took out a plane by pointing to the sky and saying bang...

[Ian]

the belt does not counteract the thrust because it does not act directly upon the thrust. If the plane were tied down, yes, there would be no thrust, but its free to move. the thrust is pushing the BODY of the plane, not the wheels. Think of it like water skiing. the boat is pulling you (thrust) and the skis go along for the ride. same thing.

Funny at the beginning of the thread I thought it wouldnt take off. :lol:

[Savage_Messiah]

F THE PLANE!!!!!!

[Ian]

F THE PLANE!!!!!!

word son, just like my sig says! :lol:

[Savage_Messiah]

:werd: :lol:

[qwikz28]

the belt does not counteract the thrust because it does not act directly upon the thrust. If the plane were tied down, yes, there would be no thrust, but its free to move. the thrust is pushing the BODY of the plane, not the wheels. Think of it like water skiing. the boat is pulling you (thrust) and the skis go along for the ride. same thing.

Funny at the beginning of the thread I thought it wouldnt take off. :lol:
but its not free to move cause the belt can still accelerate once the thrust kicks in. thats how it got up to speed in the first place

[Savage_Messiah]

ok right now im thinkin that the thrust will attempt to move the plane forward but it will roll on the wheels until it gains enough speed to create the high and lwo pressure, then will attain lift... and if the conveyer moves the same speed as the plane but backwards that initial roll will not be possible... and therefore no liftoff.

[Tsar]

the belt does not counteract the thrust because it does not act directly upon the thrust. If the plane were tied down, yes, there would be no thrust, but its free to move. the thrust is pushing the BODY of the plane, not the wheels. Think of it like water skiing. the boat is pulling you (thrust) and the skis go along for the ride. same thing.

Funny at the beginning of the thread I thought it wouldnt take off. :lol:
until the plane reaches rotate speed it doesn't matter, there wouldn't be enough thrust to produce enough lift for it to take off. And rotate speed wont be reached because one force would be counteracted with the other one.

[Ian]

but its not free to move cause the belt can still accelerate once the thrust kicks in. thats how it got up to speed in the first place

the thrust acts on the body of the plane. the belt acts on the wheels. two forces working on two different objects.

You're thinking of it like its a car. a car would need to out accelerate the belt to move because the wheels are what drives it. since the wheels are what is providing the thrust, the thrust can be controlled by another force acting DIRECTLY upon it (the belt) The plane is driven by the turbines which are NOT dependent on wheel speed. For the plane to be held stationary, it will need to be restrained. The belt does not act directly upon the thrust generated by the turbines, so the plane will still move forward.

[Savage_Messiah]

ok elaborating on my post nwo im thinking that the wheels are regardless and the turbines could overcome that obstacle of the treadmill... but now im thinkign soemthing else... F thsi my head hurts!!

F THE PLANE

[Ian]

until the plane reaches rotate speed it doesn't matter, there wouldn't be enough thrust to produce enough lift for it to take off. And rotate speed wont be reached because one force would be counteracted with the other one.

the belt CAN NOT affect the thrust of the turbines. they do not interact with eachother at all, not even indirectly.

the best possible example I could give you would be waterskiing from a helicopter. you can go against the flow of water and guess what, you're moving forward. the thrust of the helicopter is not affected by the direction of the water. the skis are like the wheels on the plane, they merely ride along the surface.

[qwikz28]

f the plane

[Tsar]

the belt CAN NOT affect the thrust of the turbines. they do not interact with eachother at all, not even indirectly.

the best possible example I could give you would be waterskiing from a helicopter. you can go against the flow of water and guess what, you're moving forward. the thrust of the helicopter is not affected by the direction of the water. the skis are like the wheels on the plane, they merely ride along the surface.
i know what turbines do. I think you fail to realize that a plane must reach a certain speed to take off. if the airplane is in a belt and is moving forward and turbines are pushing it UNTIL it reaches the rotate speed it's connected to the ground! If it remains on the belt and it counteracts its advances forward that means that INDICATED, CALIBRATE, TRUE, and GROUND speed will be ZERO! a convetional airplain WILL NOT take off with a ZERO airspeed.

[Ian]

does the belt act directly on the body of the plane? no. does the belt act drectly on the wheels? yes. do the wheels act directly on the body of the plane? NO. Does the body of the plane act directly on the wheels? yes.

the thrust is coming from the body of the plane. the wheels begin to roll, and the belt starts to roll the opposite direction. If the wheels were driving the plane (like a car) that would be direct opposition to thrust. the only way to directly oppose the thrust of the plane would be to put the nose of it up against a wall or find some other way to restrain it.

[Tsar]

does the belt act directly on the body of the plane? no. does the belt act drectly on the wheels? yes. do the wheels act directly on the body of the plane? NO. Does the body of the plane act directly on the wheels? yes.

the thrust is coming from the body of the plane. the wheels begin to roll, and the belt starts to roll the opposite direction. If the wheels were driving the plane (like a car) that would be direct opposition to thrust. the only way to directly oppose the thrust of the plane would be to put the nose of it up against a wall or find some other way to restrain it.
you are still failing to tell me how the airplane will gain enough speed, it MUST roll forward to gain speed, and it will not.

[Ian]

The belt is not holding the plane back, the wheels are free to spin. the body of the plane will be moved forward due to the thrust generated by the turbines. the wheels will just speed up, thats all. the thrust is completely independent from the belt's input on the wheels. the belt could be going twice the speed in the opposidte direction and the plane would still take off.

[Tsar]

The belt is not holding the plane back, the wheels are free to spin. the body of the plane will be moved forward due to the thrust generated by the turbines. the wheels will just speed up, thats all. the thrust is completely independent from the belt's input on the wheels. the belt could be going twice the speed in the opposidte direction and the plane would still take off.
to me this doesnt even make sence. before the plane takes off it is a CAR. Sure the wheels arent driven by the turbines but you need them to roll and gain speed. maybe you should go fly a plane then you'll change your mind.


**** this airplane problem

[Savage_Messiah]

for once what iw as thinkign before.. agrees with tsar....

[JL8Jeff]

F the plane! And he agrees!

http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/jeffhansbury@comcast.net/Reunion/HerveVillechaize.jpg

[Savage_Messiah]

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[GP99GT]

to me this doesnt even make sence. before the plane takes off it is a CAR. Sure the wheels arent driven by the turbines but you need them to roll and gain speed. maybe you should go fly a plane then you'll change your mind.


**** this airplane problem

thats the problem, it isnt a car. if it were driven by the wheels, youd be right. it doesnt directly use the wheels to increase forward speed.

[Savage_Messiah]

Here's how I look at it.

A planes gotta have a runway for a reason. I've watched em take off, the roll aroudn at first till theyre in the lane and then the accellerate... and stay ont eh ground, rolling on the wheels until the forward motion has built up the high and low pressure areas above/below the wings that suffice for liftoff.

If a plane could just up and go like you guys are saying, wtf is the point of a runway?

[trashman01]

the wheels on the plane are like the ones on a shopping cart, they act as rollers and nothing more. the plane is PULLED thru the air with the engines, the plane needs air speed. not ground speed to take off.

[96ImpSS]

This is how I understand it: The discrepancy is the difference from the thrust of the engine and the wheels. I guess the problem arises when you have to imagine an enormous treadmill that can move hundreds of mph.

Imagine
The pilot applies thrust to the enigines (say 50%thrust - enough to get the plane to move @200mph not sure of the exact amount just a ballpark guess) the engines spool and the thrust kicks in which moves the wings then the body (collectively several dozen tons) and finally the wheels (supporting the entire weight of the plane) which rotate at 200mph as a result of the thrust applied. THe treadmill then moves 200mph in the opposite direction to compensate. 200mph plane forward - 200 mph treadmill backward=0mph which results in no lift. Without the treadmill the plane moves the 200mmph forwad. Without the thrust the plane moves backwards @ 200mph

Remember the weight of the plane is the connection between the the engines' thrust and the wheels.

[GP99GT]

Here's how I look at it.

A planes gotta have a runway for a reason. I've watched em take off, the roll aroudn at first till theyre in the lane and then the accellerate... and stay ont eh ground, rolling on the wheels until the forward motion has built up the high and low pressure areas above/below the wings that suffice for liftoff.

If a plane could just up and go like you guys are saying, wtf is the point of a runway?

thats not what we're saying, did you read this thread?

the plane does move forward and does create lift...it isnt just taking off from a standstill (like a harrier or helicopter or something)

everyone on anti-rice understood it

[Savage_Messiah]

f the plane

[Tsar]

the wheels on the plane are like the ones on a shopping cart, they act as rollers and nothing more. the plane is PULLED thru the air with the engines, the plane needs air speed. not ground speed to take off.
FYI airspeed and ground speed are essentially the same. Ground speed is airspeed + or - the wind speed.

[Tsar]

for once what iw as thinkign before.. agrees with tsar....
:werd:

[Firebird67dude]

The het plane will NOT take off....... and the prop plane would take off.... no more of this thread.

[Tsar]

none will take off...


how about we agree to disagree and f this plane thread!

[Ian]

The het plane will NOT take off....... and the prop plane would take off.... no more of this thread.

explain why the jet plane would not take off and the prop plane would.

[Savage_Messiah]

my friedns at embry riddle for aeronautical somethinorother... just explained to me how it will take off

[Tsar]

explain why the jet plane would not take off and the prop plane would.
His reasoning is: Prop is located before the wing therefor when it turns, air goes over the wing and if there's enough of it it should create lift. Turbines are located after the wing and they dont move air over and under the wing as the Prop would do so therefor it will not make a sufficient lif and not take off. I think thats where he's going with it.

[Tsar]

my friedns at embry riddle for aeronautical somethinorother... just explained to me how it will take off
ERAU (last letter is university)....u better ask them why airline companies dont wanna hire them after they are done with their training. And why its so expensive to go there (1000 bucks a credit) to go there when you can cross the road and get the same thing for 1/3 :p
ohh and so we clear and u dont get your panties in a wad i know plenty of people from ERAU.

[Ian]

a prop plane does not take off by using the air flow from the propellers. the propellers pull the plane along the runway until there is enough speed to take flight.

[Savage_Messiah]

and if the runway is moving same speed opposite direction... it cant gain enough speed to take flight?!?!?!?


**** PLANES

[Ian]

Okay, I'm going to explain it the same way Matt did for me.

put a toy car on a treadmill and hold it in one position. Now turn the treadmill on and keep holding it there. next, accelerate the treadmill. notice anything? it takes the same amount of energy (thrust) for you to hold the car there at 2 mph and 20 mph. push the car forward and you will notice that no matter how fast the treadmill goes, the car will move forward. you are acting as the jets on the plane and the cars wheels are acting as the planes wheels. the thrust pushed the car forward even though the treadmill accelerated.

[Tsar]

Okay, I'm going to explain it the same way Matt did for me.

put a toy car on a treadmill and hold it in one position. Now turn the treadmill on and keep holding it there. next, accelerate the treadmill. notice anything? it takes the same amount of energy (thrust) for you to hold the car there at 2 mph and 20 mph. push the car forward and you will notice that no matter how fast the treadmill goes, the car will move forward. you are acting as the jets on the plane and the cars wheels are acting as the planes wheels. the thrust pushed the car forward even though the treadmill accelerated.
you are holding the car, its the same as airplain being tied down or me standing on the breaks as i give it throttle.

[Ian]

and then I push it forward (thrust) and it moves forward even though the wheels are spining like crazy

[Savage_Messiah]

this needs to DIE

[Ian]

this needs to DIE

I'm trying to bury it, but tsar wont let me! :lol:

[Tsar]

and then I push it forward (thrust) and it moves forward even though the wheels are spining like crazy
why dont u get a remote control airplane with a prop and try it out on a treadmill and if you theory proves right ill give you a 100 bucks? use the controls and not your hands and it will fail.

[Tsar]

I'm trying to bury it, but tsar wont let me! :lol:
i told you before we should agree to disagree, but you wont. you wont change my mind becuase i know its wrong and the aircraft wont take off but you keep saying it will. :)

[Tsar]

im getting sick of the airplane disscussion

[Ian]

why dont u get a remote control airplane with a prop and try it out on a treadmill and if you theory proves right ill give you a 100 bucks? use the controls and not your hands and it will fail.


If I had ready access to one or both, I would and I'd be $100 richer.

I'm going to give up on this topic because its like pissing into the wind....pointless.

[Tsar]

i got a treadmill all u need is a remote control airplane

[trashman01]

tsar, not to keep this alive or anything but how come the airplane wont take off? cuz im trying to think how it wouldnt take off? the runway cant hold it back, the wheels are like shopping carts. heres an example
Kid in a shopping car, his hands are the turbines, and theres string across his head(air in this case) the cart is on a treadmill, the kid grabs the string(air) with his hands(turbines) and pulls him forward. now that he is moving forward, he is disturbing the air and making it move around him, if there were wings ont eh cart, the air would go over/under the wings. like driving a car on a day with no wind, the car displaces the air and wind is made. like when u run thru a bunch of leaves with a car. same concept is applied witht eh air plane, the plane is pushed forward thru the air, the wheels just spin freely and the air plane makes its own wind to force over/under the wing to creat lift


if ur not confused with that ill consider it a victory

[Jersey_TA]

The wheels have absolutely nothing to do with the forward movement of the airplane other than fascilitating forward movement on the stationary runway. The thrust from the engines will push the plane forward and take off. Trust me, I'm in the airforce and work on planes.

When we run engines with the brakes set the plane will not move since the ground underneath is stationary and "holds" the plane in one spot. If the ground freely moves the wheels in the oposite direction, you take all the resistance away that holds the plane in place. It makes the original post very hard to understand. You have to think outside of traditional reasoning.

Just think about how a hovercraft works, no wheels. lol.

[Koll]

JersetTA. Correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt the thrust move the plane foward and a byproduct of that is the air moving over the wings creating the lift?

[Dark_Knight7096]

Ok, so this is going around the 'net. HUGE threads of people arguing back and forth...



The plane WILL take off. The wheels do not affect the thrust of the airplane, they just support it. People cant seem to grasp the concept that they are free rotating wheels and this is not a wind tunnel we are talking about.


The plane WON'T take off. It has nothing to do with thrust being generated, it is LIFT being generated. The lift under the wings has to overcome the forces of drag being excerted (sp) on the rest of the plane. Planes have to be MOVING at a certain speed to do this, while it is true the plane will have reached the proper speed to allow the air to flow over it's wings properly in order to do this, the plane is actually NOT MOVING. Since the plane is not moving there is no airflow over it's wings, therefore no lift is being generated and the plane won't take off. You can debate it all you want but it's symple laws of physics. If anyone wants to continue the debate i have one friend who has a degree as a mechanical engineer and one friend who has a degree in physics and i'll be more than happy to get them over here and post their views.

There now we can all let it die, cause those guys are just confusing with all their technobabble and i'm sure nobody wants that. LOL

[Jersey_TA]

JersetTA. Correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt the thrust move the plane foward and a byproduct of that is the air moving over the wings creating the lift?

Yes, why do you ask?

[GP99GT]

The plane WON'T take off. It has nothing to do with thrust being generated, it is LIFT being generated. The lift under the wings has to overcome the forces of drag being excerted (sp) on the rest of the plane. Planes have to be MOVING at a certain speed to do this, while it is true the plane will have reached the proper speed to allow the air to flow over it's wings properly in order to do this, the plane is actually NOT MOVING. Since the plane is not moving there is no airflow over it's wings, therefore no lift is being generated and the plane won't take off. You can debate it all you want but it's symple laws of physics. If anyone wants to continue the debate i have one friend who has a degree as a mechanical engineer and one friend who has a degree in physics and i'll be more than happy to get them over here and post their views.

There now we can all let it die, cause those guys are just confusing with all their technobabble and i'm sure nobody wants that. LOL


everyone in this thread has said that same thing and been showed they're wrong every time...give up.

the plane does move. the plane creates lift. the plane takes off. end

[Tsar]

The plane WON'T take off. It has nothing to do with thrust being generated, it is LIFT being generated. The lift under the wings has to overcome the forces of drag being excerted (sp) on the rest of the plane. Planes have to be MOVING at a certain speed to do this, while it is true the plane will have reached the proper speed to allow the air to flow over it's wings properly in order to do this, the plane is actually NOT MOVING. Since the plane is not moving there is no airflow over it's wings, therefore no lift is being generated and the plane won't take off. You can debate it all you want but it's symple laws of physics. If anyone wants to continue the debate i have one friend who has a degree as a mechanical engineer and one friend who has a degree in physics and i'll be more than happy to get them over here and post their views.

There now we can all let it die, cause those guys are just confusing with all their technobabble and i'm sure nobody wants that. LOL:werd: make them post on here. i dont think we will ever agree on the matter but whatever. Get them in here man. :D

[Tsar]

everyone in this thread has said that same thing and been showed they're wrong every time...give up.

the plane does move. the plane creates lift. the plane takes off. endit does not create lift, it in the same spot. doesnt matter how fast its going while its still stationary.

[GP99GT]

it does not create lift, it in the same spot. doesnt matter how fast its going while its still stationary.

read what you just said..."it doesnt matter how fast its going while it is stationary"

it cant be stationary. if it is stationary, then technically the treadmill isnt moving either, because the treadmill tracks the plane's speed. so yes, it can move. stop thinking of it as the wheels drive the plane.

[Tsar]

read what you just said..."it doesnt matter how fast its going while it is stationary"

it cant be stationary. if it is stationary, then technically the treadmill isnt moving either, because the treadmill tracks the plane's speed. so yes, it can move. stop thinking of it as the wheels drive the plane.
its stationary because the conveyeer belt is counteracting the force of the wheels. if the plane is going 500mph forward, and belt is going 500mph back it wont move. get on a tread mill and start running toward new york and tell me when u get there...assuming you're running the same speed as the treadmill spins u'll never move a foot eventho you'll be running 10mph.

[trashman01]

tsar is right bout the new york then, cuz the tread mill is acting upon the legs which are driving u forward. the wheels do not drive the plane forward, they are rollers. get it yet?

[Firebird67dude]

I still say we just call myth busters and let then find out that the JET plane will not move.

[GP99GT]

Well, everyone can eat my ass now. This thread is now over.

http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?fileid=35E964D9-38DB-4EFD-BE8D-D6BA1A43A06B

Watch it and weep


:)

[Tsar]

what about EQUAL speeds? u know there's absolutely no chance that those were equal.

[Tsar]

actually prolly tomorrow, or sat. ill take my treadmill a fan and a skateboard and do the same. but how do i post it here?

[GP99GT]

you can upload it to streetfire. just make sure its a strong enough fan to move the skateboard on even flat ground

oh, and notice it didnt gain speed after getting off the paper...stayed constant the whole time. and i think the speeds were pretty close to being the same...if i had a skateboard i'd do it too....but im straight so i dont

[Tsar]

you can upload it to streetfire. just make sure its a strong enough fan to move the skateboard on even flat ground

oh, and notice it didnt gain speed after getting off the paper...stayed constant the whole time. and i think the speeds were pretty close to being the same...if i had a skateboard i'd do it too....but im straight so i dont
dont worry about the fan. i have a couple and one of them is pretty powerful if that needs to be used. I just have to figure out how to mount it on the skateboard :lol:

[GP99GT]

duct tape my friend..duct tape. im gonna see if i can find anything in my house that rolls freely and try it out as well

[V]

i just want to clarify somehting that i think a few people arent understanding..

When some of us say the plane will take off, we do not mean it will go from a dead stop all of a sudden to being airborne. that is impossible, we all agree you need speed to be able to achieve lift. what we mean is that it will eventually take off. It will begin to move forward and accelerate, and once the speed needed for lift is reached it will then take off. Additionaly, if the plane will be on the treadmill up until the time of liftoff, the treadmill MUST be as long as a normal runway, not just the length of the plane, if that was the case, the plane would roll forward and off of it. i just wanted to say that since i think people are thinking of it as IF the plane will lift off right in the same spot where it started from. which it wont, but like i said eventually it will though.

[Savage_Messiah]

:stupid:

[Ian]

POST NUMBER 2500!!! :w00t:

Great find matt, that video proves its will take off. I love what the guy says at the very end. "suck it". :lol:

[Dark_Knight7096]

That doesn't prove anything!!!!!!! It's a fan on top of a skateboard of course it's gonna move as soon as the rearward force (moron with paper) stops acting on it. If the conveyor belt acting on the plane stopped, the plane would move forward but wouldn't be able to take off. They are two totally different things. Granted the plane would be able to take off much, MUCH sooner because it would take longer to acheive necissary lift (not speed) but still it couldn't take off on the runway.

[Teds89IROC]

look at the video again, the plane is clearly moving forward at the same time the guy is pulling the paper

~Ted

[GP99GT]

That doesn't prove anything!!!!!!! It's a fan on top of a skateboard of course it's gonna move as soon as the rearward force (moron with paper) stops acting on it. If the conveyor belt acting on the plane stopped, the plane would move forward but wouldn't be able to take off. They are two totally different things. Granted the plane would be able to take off much, MUCH sooner because it would take longer to acheive necissary lift (not speed) but still it couldn't take off on the runway.


did you even watch the video?

[Tsar]

look at the video again, the plane is clearly moving forward at the same time the guy is pulling the paper

~Ted
the speed of both must be matched exactly, u cant do it with your hands.

[Teds89IROC]

who cares if the speed is matched- just by looking at that video, you could pull the paper EVEN faster than the skateboard is moving and it will still move forward.

~Ted

[Tsar]

who cares if the speed is matched- just by looking at that video, you could pull the paper EVEN faster than the skateboard is moving and it will still move forward.

~Ted
um...who cares? go re-read the problem problem it clearly states that the speed must be the same. and i doubt paper was moving faster, and if you think that if i put a piece of paper under a skateboard and yank it as hard as i can and it will still move forward you must me smoking funny cigs.

[GP99GT]

actually it probably will still move forward, as long as you pull straight back and not up + back

ooh this gives me an idea. anyone got that type of paper? we tape it to the bumper of someones car, start the fan going...and start the car going at idle speed. that should be able the same speed as the fan+skateboard, this way the speed will stay the same, or we can make it faster, and if we have a lot of the paper we can make it really long

[Tsar]

actually it probably will still move forward, as long as you pull straight back and not up + back

ooh this gives me an idea. anyone got that type of paper? we tape it to the bumper of someones car, start the fan going...and start the car going at idle speed. that should be able the same speed as the fan+skateboard
it would be hard for me to yank straight back so im thinking it will hit the wall behind me. its ok ill try it with my treadmill if i need a faster one ill go to my friends house :lol:

damn i missed the second paragraph u typed...wouldnt the skateboard and the car be going in the same direction then?

[GP99GT]

it would be hard for me to yank straight back so im thinking it will hit the wall behind me. its ok ill try it with my treadmill if i need a faster one ill go to my friends house :lol:

damn i missed the second paragraph u typed...wouldnt the skateboard and the car be going in the same direction then?

ummm...not if you turn the skateboard/fan the opposite way? lol not sure what youre trying to say there

any treadmill should be fast enough for that fan/skateboard thing, it wasnt going very fast at all. walking speed

[Dark_Knight7096]

This argument would make sense if this experiment were being done in a wind tunnel, otherwise it does not. It is the force of the air acting upon the wings of the plane that causes it to fly. Without air actively moving over the wings it won't lift off. Typically the plane is moving across the ground at 100mph (using a number just for arguments sake, it's purely arbitrary), the air is not moving therefore when the plane moves it is going through the air, the air passing over the wings causes it to take off. You could do this inversely, the plane could be totally stationary and not moving but there would have to be a 100mph wind in order to get it to lift off. The plane could lift off the ground and fly not moving, not generating any thrust provided that the air was moving fast enough around it to generate lift. When you are moving the plane forward and at the same time counteracting that forward motion with rearward motion you are cancelling out any motion of the plane, and since the air will not be moving over the surface of the wing fast enough to create the sufficent amount of lift it will not take off. Another example: I'm sure everyone here has seen a car at high speed catch a little too much air underneath it and go airborne. It's creating lift under the car. Now take that same car and strap it on a dyno, or rollers or whatever you want. Take that car up to 180, 200mph, and then introduce air to the bottom of the car. Will it lift up off the dyno or the rollers? No because it is not moving FORWARD through the air, if the air was blown at the car at that 180 or 200mph wile it was stationary it would though. Seriously, i'm not just blowing smoke at you guys, i used to be really, REALLY into planes when i was younger.

[GP99GT]

well youre still not getting it though. the plane is going to be moving forward at a normal speed for takeoff, regardless of how fast the conveyor is moving underneath. we all understand how planes use lift to take off.

The motion would only be counteracted if the plane were driven by the wheels, this has been said numerous times, other people have realized its true, i dunno why some of you are still so stubborn. your car example does not work because the car is driven by the wheels.

[Teds89IROC]

um...who cares? go re-read the problem problem it clearly states that the speed must be the same. and i doubt paper was moving faster, and if you think that if i put a piece of paper under a skateboard and yank it as hard as i can and it will still move forward you must me smoking funny cigs.


what I'm saying is who cares for the simple reason that this video clearly shows it will work and based upon a lot of peoples thinking, if you moved the treadmill or pulled the paper faster than the plane was moving, that should ensure that your theory is correct and the plane/object will not move forward. So try it tomorrow with your treadmill, after you try to match speeds do another trial and let the treadmill move faster than the plane/object is moving and you should yield the same results as if the speeds were matched.

and as far as this " and if you think that if i put a piece of paper under a skateboard and yank it as hard as i can and it will still move forward you must me smoking funny cigs" If its just a skateboard and no source of power, of course the skateboard will not move forward, but that is not what this "debate" is about nor the experiment in the video. We're testing it based on the thrust of the plane/object, not an object sitting still with no momentum.

~Ted