Hmm Dodge...

[nj85z28]

Im just wondering what everyone's opinion is on buying american. the point is to not only buy things made here, but buy things from companies american owned. recently i bought this book- How Americans can Buy American (The Power of consumer patriotism) and flipping through real quick i came to realization, even though its not by any means new to me, that Dodge and Chrysler are owned by foreign countries. Im just wondering why this hasnt effected "Real Americans" from buying these products.

[WayFast84]

GM>all

[nj85z28]

obviously. but im looking for serious input here. intellectual discussion......

[Mike]

you wont get that from a middle schooler

[BigAls87Z28]

They arent owned by foriegn countries, but by foriegn corperations.
There is always the talk of where the money goes.
Do you buy a Toyota Camry, whichis built in the US but is a car made by a Japanese car company, or do you buy an Impala, built in Canada, but made for an American car company?
What about cross-company cars? Pontiac Vibe is built in the US, and is made for GM, but is a Toyota?
How about the Ford Fusion, Merc Milan, and the Linc Zepher, all are American car companies made here, but the chassis is from the Mazda 6? Same for the Ford 500 and Merc Montego, who has a Volvo chassis.
Or how about different car companies using different engines and transmissiosn such as BMW using GM's 5spd autos for several years?

[Ian]

Jake's old Isuzu was a mutt. GM parts, toyota parts, I cant remember the rest, but there were a few others.

If what you're talking about is supporting americans, I would imagine buying something made in the US would be the most beneficial. The executives dont have to worry about money but the factory workers do. When you buy a car that was made in the states, you're helping to keep that factory open and in turn keep americans working. At the same time though, if you buy a foreign car that was built in the US, you're sending you're money to another country. Its not exactly a cut and dry subject, there are a lot of different angles to think about.

[nj85z28]

I like where this is going....any more>?

[MilehighBird]

This is going to be an issue that is not going away anytime soon and will probably get harder to figure out in our new supposed "global" economy. I have always bought GM cars and wanted to support our country. But now they are closing American plants and laying off people from the parts division Delphi but leaving their Mexico plant open. It pisses me off that half the parts on my Grand Am are from mexico and it might have been assembled in Mexico. I finnally bought a Honda last year. My Element was made in Ohio. I am torn because why should I buy from an American company that is fireing Americans but their executives get richer? I didn't feel great about buying a Honda but I did like that is was made here.

Our government needs to help us more. All these free trade programs like Nafta really hurt the average american. It allows manufacturing jobs and now high tech jobs to flow out of this country. Other countries tax and tarriff our products coming into there country but we don't do the same all in the name of free trade. Is this because its good for our country or because highly paid lobbyist influence our officials so big corporations can make more $? Do you know when you call Dell or American Express or some other companies customer service you are sometimes speaking with someone in India making $15 bucks a day? My friend is a corporate accountant and tells me some companies now farm out their returns to India? I am a sales rep for a sporting goods company based in California. Our components are now all from China and assembled in California. I feel its only a matter of time before they are assembled over there too so they don't have to pay more labor here.

Sorry about the long rant but this topic really pisses me off and I am more worried about our younger members and my kids if I decide to have some since it will affect you guys more than us old farts.

[qwikz28]

Im just wondering what everyone's opinion is on buying american. the point is to not only buy things made here, but buy things from companies american owned. recently i bought this book- How Americans can Buy American (The Power of consumer patriotism) and flipping through real quick i came to realization, even though its not by any means new to me, that Dodge and Chrysler are owned by foreign countries. Im just wondering why this hasnt effected "Real Americans" from buying these products.
there is nothing we can do anymore. our economy is headed down a one way street down the toilet. the completely incompetent bush administration had the brilliant idea today to loosen up the boarders. WTF?????? as if there aren't enough jobs out there we need more people (*cough* willing to accept lower wages *cough*) that are gonna take our jobs. GM needs to ditch the union workers and hire normal salary payed workers. thats what saturn did and thats why they sell their cars at the prices they do. and with new technologies reducing the friction of distance, outsourcing has become a MUCH cheaper alternative to statewide work.

Al or Koll can back me up on this one, but there is a chinese automaker coming over to ther USA making mid-size sedans starting at 10k. thats almost half the price of a kia or a hyundai. now any idiot can tell you that the average american doesnt give a **** and will save the money by buying a 10k car.

ok now to wrap up, you ask which company would benefit the country most? the car would have to be american made by an american company so that the labor is payed to american working class citizens and the profit goes to american executives.

ps- notice how i said citizens in my last paragraph :rollseye:

[WayFast84]

:werd: :stupid: He hit the head on the nail :nod: I heard the chineese company couldnt comply with us fuel standards!...We have hummers that get 12 mpg and a car from asia cant pass fuel standards??? OMG! :shock:

[Mike]

:werd: :stupid: He hit the head on the nail :nod: I heard the chineese company couldnt comply with us fuel standards!...We have hummers that get 12 mpg and a car from asia cant pass fuel standards??? OMG! :shock:

govt standards arent just about mpg.....

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, there are protecting American workers, and then there is the issue with the unions.
And Milehigh, you bring up a good point that many import guys bring up, and that is that American companies are firing Americans, and import companies are employing them.
Let me take you back to a time when GM held a damn near monopoly over the US Car market. A time when Chevy alone had more market share then GM does today. GM made many promises to workers when they built many cars in many plants, that GM would cover everything, medical, financial, whatever it was, GM had your back.

Well, its 2006, GM is on the brink of losing #1 spot in the world, and because its so large and has so much weight, it cannot adapt to the auto world around it.
While Toyota can bring a new car out in less then 2 years, it takes GM 3 to 4 years if they work hard at it. Toyota can produce a car much faster then GM can, and the factories are much more flexable as are the chassis and engineering.
GM in recent years has been VASTLY improving its production time. Where it used to take 36 hrs to make a car, it only takes 25. Thats a huge jump, but it takes Toyota 19.
Now, lets put this into perspective. There are 2 plants, plant 1 and plant 2. Both plants make 150k a year, for a total of 300k. Plant 1 improves productivity, and increases its ability to make cars faster. "Lean Manufacturing" is being implimented, and now plant 1 makes 300k cars a year. Problem is, Plant 2 also was upgraded and makes 300k cars a year. Now there is vast overcapacity. What do you do with this other plant?
Well, that gets me to point #2, GM promised these people that they would be coverd for life. Well, that was a great promise back in 1965, but in 2006, GM cant do that. All thoes people who are now getting pension off GM, are sucking a large part of the cash flow away from GM. Health Care is also a big thing. All this amount to about 2,500 added to every car GM makes, right to the bottom line.
Now, union workers wont give up that awesome coverage, and GM suffers. Any profit they make goes right back into paying pension, and hurting GM. GM cannot put money into upcoming cars, which hurts the car itself, coming in below expectation and loosing sales, which takes away more profit, and its a friggin domino effect.
GM has a lot of excess capacity at plants, and thats what kilsl them. They are paying union workesr 95% pay, and full benifits to sit on there asses at home, not building cars.
Toyota and othe Asian car makers, do not have the UAW to deal with. There factories are UAW-Free, and they dont have to deal with healthcare.

People can yell that the US needs a National Healthcare system, like every other major power in the western world, but that aint gunna happen. That could take a lot of stress off GM's back.
GM is making fantastic cars now, and they are gettign better every model. Just look at the new Buick Enclave. I thought Id never say this, but this is one sweet looking Buick.
GM has very few choices, and must make sure that they do what they can to gain as much profit, which is why they are pushing the 900 trucks and SUV's out, and trying to recapture some of that, so that they can infuse it into new models. GM has a lot loaded into the clip, they just need cash, and they need it now. UAW does not seem to be cooperating, and it could be the cause of major battles for a long time.
GM does not have problems like this with the CAW since they have a Nationalized Healthcare system, and Mexico, labor is cheap.
As I was getting too, GM has a lot of excess capacity. Willmington, wehre they make the Kappa cars (Solstice, Sky, and soon the Opel GT) will only take 50k units, but Willmington was deisgned to make the Saturn L series, which was predicted to sell over 250k units. So there is capacity for 200k more cars!!
The idea is for GM to be running on full capcity, and that needs to be done with more flexable chassis designes, and possible dual production lines in the same plant. What if you could make a RWD Impala and a FWD Malibu int he same plant, side by side. If demand for Impala went up, and Malibu down, you could adjust produciton as needed, and vise versa. They need to be adaptable to market changes. They also need to get people to stop thinking that GM is Rebate Central. GM needs to beat expectations, and come in below the price mark. But this is all easier said then done. Only way for GM to start to become more profitable is to decrease overcapacity, slash health care costs, and be more adaptable int he US and world wide with global chassis, but thast another story for another day.

My rant is over. If you want ot help, buy GM. After all the adjustments and retooling of plants, and GM starts making super great cars and great prices, there will still be the problem of image, an image set in peoples minds of crappy cars from the 80's to the 90's. Its that image that will take the longest to get rid of. You can show them all the quality reports, and JD power scores, crash tests, EPA fuel economy, the ability to have people give GM a 2nd chance, thats what will be GM's biggest mountain to climb.

[MilehighBird]

Big Al I do agree with every thing that you are saying. The UAW did get greedy. I am not anti union per se but they have to take blame as well. The car industry is starting to look like the steel industry when it went in the crapper in the 80's because of high union labor and cheap imports. I do believe that our elected officials have to step up to the plate too. Of course China could come in here with a $10k car. They had to spend $0 on R&D because they pirate all our technology and do not honor any trademark or patent law. They pay their labor 25 cents a day and don't have osha standards or any type of labor laws to deal with like we do here. Our government has to set some sort of import regulations to make it a somewhat level playing field. I do feel it is unfair to single out the Bush administration. There is plenty of blame and politicians taking money from lobbyist and PAC groups on both sides of congress. If my memory serves correctly it was Al Gore and they Clinton admin that was investigated for taking campaign money from the Chinese gov't and Hilary Clinton used to be on the board of directors for WalMArt and we all know they pay great and never hire illegals:). All our elected officials need to be held accountable and represent our best interest.

Off my soap box now:).

[BigAls87Z28]

Bush has come out himself and said that the Goverment will not help out the automakers. GM and Ford are pretty much on there own.
And with the reports of more dirty money on the Republican side, I dont want to get into that. There is already a thread for that mess.
Either way, Goverment wont do anything.
As for the Chinese cars, yes they still have to go through a lot of US regulations, but they are easily reaching them.

[nj85z28]

this may come off as a super-biased statement from me, but understand i am a Union worker myself, being out of work. in my opinion, the unions should not have to give up the healthcare coverage they were given by GM in their contracts unless they get something in return.
for us IBEW members, we are paying 25 percent for our healthcare. seems like alot right> well, the coverage sucks. terribly. in fact, i had to call the financial group that handles it in order to get a card for the "new plan" they switched to without notice about a year and a half beforehand.
if union busting tactics continue to work in the same manner they are now, with Mr. Bush and his union hating lackeys, dont expect to make much more than those mexicans getting paid 25 cents an hour.
like it or hate it, most unions are big business now, funnelling millions and millions of dollars back into the economy every day.
in my biased opinion, the united states could not function without trained union workers, because we are paid more because we are trained more.
for us electricians, work is very bad now because of non union, unskilled workers. we have to take 5 years of school, and complete 1900 on the job hours a year in order to advance in pay, when your average non union electrician gets hired out of the newspaper with little or no training, resulting in poor quality of work, on the job accidents.

im not turning my thread into a union discussion, im simply giving my opinion on the thought that union workers are being asked to cut healthcare. i guess its easier being on the outside looking in, than on the recieving end of losing your benefits and pensions after so long. the simple fact is, we need a national healthcare program, IMO.

[BigAls87Z28]

Not to take anything away from unions, but the non-union import plants put together better cars and faster then the UAW does. IMO, UAW needs a major adjustment. They need to understand that they must adjust so that GM can retain some profits.

[nj85z28]

theres always ways to make things run smoother and faster. GM needs to find one

[BigAls87Z28]

How about filling for Chapt 11?
I honestly thought that with the Delphi deal, that the UAW might just lighten up a bit, but nope.
Paying people 85 dollars and hour to put in spark plugs is uncalled for. Not when I can get Pablo to do it for a dollar, or Chin-Yang Song to do it for a nickle.

[nj85z28]

and thats the exact attitude that caused the USA to import everything, creating a global economy, and probably 99.9% of **** available to buy is from china or japan. the US is serioiusly ****ed right now, because of that attitude. i have SERIOUS doubts that you would even think that if it was your job we were talking about.

[BigAls87Z28]

There are certain jobs I can understand and I would want to be rewarded. But the UAW puts together a very poor car, and gets paid very high for it. On top of that, they dont budge on its benifits, even if it means biting the hand that feeds them. I can see if they were negotiable or flexable, but they are not only stedfast, but they want MORE!! The UAW is hurting more then helping at this point. And it will take either GM or Ford to file Chapter 11 for them maaaaaybe to snap out of it.
Enough about the union thing. UAW is hurting more then helping. UAW is not allowed and is not wanted in the Toyota, Nissan and Honda American plants. UAW needs to realize the crunch that the big 3 are in, and they need to be more flexable.

[Untamed]

Buying American is an ideal way of ensuring the money you spend, stays in the local, state or federal economy. But as was mentioned, "buying American" isn't always buying the parts, services or intellectual property from actual American companies, investors or owners.

I think the problem with buying American, is in the expectations of what is American, what is quality and what is affordable. Companies today are trying to make more, with less, as quickly and as widely distributed as possible. The American people have a certain lifestyle they expect, so the cost to do all this is higher than other countries. Short of changing American's expectation of what is a good lifestyle, nothing else will positively affect American's buying decisions. Quality for the price, will always be the selling point.

Having said all that, and taking into account the discussions about unions, or at least the average laborer who lives and works in the USA, I think the best thing a consumer can do (when talking about cars) is buy a vehicle that is assembled in the USA, made from parts that are in part at least, made in the USA, then sold by a company that has a majority of its holdings in the USA. Todays economy requires outsourcing of everything from parts, to labor to intellectual property. So anything that is designed, assembled, manufactured and sold as "American Made", where the majority of it comes from the USA, is your best bet - when trying to "buy American".

GM fits that viewpoint with some of its vehicles. But so does Toyota, Honda and any other car whose company has built assembly plants in the USA, has contracts with parts makers in the USA, and has set up a separate USA sales division to sell and service cars and parts in the USA. The intellectual property might be Japanese (or other non-USA), allowing money to eventually flow back into a foreign balance sheet. But real money is being paid to USA employees, feeding their families, and allowing them to build quality products that they can be proud of.

Does that viewpoint conjure images of the phrase "sell-out"? In this day and age, I honestly think that phrase is outdated. I bought my Toyota Camry for various reasons - some of which I now regret. But the car was made here in the USA, sold to me by a US citizen, serviced by some very New Jersey grease monkeys, under the company name of North American Toyota Sales Division.

If I had to do it all over again I would have listened to the voice screaming in my head and bought the Grand Prix. Not because its American, or assembled by an American company, but because I like it. No more, no less.

[Jersey_TA]

im not turning my thread into a union discussion, im simply giving my opinion on the thought that union workers are being asked to cut healthcare. i guess its easier being on the outside looking in, than on the recieving end of losing your benefits and pensions after so long. the simple fact is, we need a national healthcare program, IMO.

I personally hate union workers where I'm from simply because of the situations I have been exposed to. My good friend back home in IL has had multiple job sites vandalized by a union that thinks ALL electrical work HAS to be done through them. My friend is in a family business that has gone through school and is very well qualified. A hotel in the process of being built in my hometown has had multiple problems with union vandalization/sabotage of non union work. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but that kind of **** is ****ing worthless

[nj85z28]

im going to agree, only because i see alot of things being on the inside. some guys take it over above and beyond what is necessary, but at the same time i feel for them because they are trying to protect their livelyhood(SP??).

[NJSPEEDER]

i woudl rather buy from a company that is based in the US than jsut buying a product that is made here by a company that is owned abroad.
when you buy from a company that is american at it's core the greatest amount of the money stays here. i am not a particular fan of paying foreign labor, but at least i know that the profits are staying at home in the US.

unions are a different story and a completely different rant for me, so i will leave that alone.

[Jersey_TA]

im going to agree, only because i see alot of things being on the inside. some guys take it over above and beyond what is necessary, but at the same time i feel for them because they are trying to protect their livelyhood(SP??).

I do understand where you are coming from. I just don't think that you absolutely have to have work done by a union. If they get outbid on a job they should accept it and move on istead of getting all pissy. My friend/his dad have been doing their job for over 20 years.

I know there are good union workers too though. Just a kinda sore subject.