Turbo vs. Supercharger

[PureSpeed]

I own a 2002 ls1 z28 m6 and im looking for more power :grampsch: I've been reading up on the pros and cons of both a supercharger and a turbo. I used to have a twin turbo import before i came over to the domestic side of the family so i kinda know what its like. but ive never ridden in a supercharged car before or driven in a supercharged or turbo'd ls1. ive been looking at centrifugal and twin screw superchargers and the STS remote turbo system. If anyone has a supercharged or sts turbo'd Ls1 in North Jersey reply here or send me pm, id like to go for a ride to see what its like so i can make a further decision.

Thanks

[qwikz28]

twin screw superchargers wont fit on our cars...

the main difference between the two is where you will see the power. superchargers offer awesome bottom end and keep pulling to the top. turbos offer great mid range and top end punch but dont have it down low cause of turbo lag. the new "thing" seems to be turbo for an ls1. some people are making awesome numbers on the dyno and at the track with them and the more i float around on ls1tech the more i see people switching over from superchargers/nitrous/HC over to turbo. if i had the money i would do a turbo after doing my research especially since my car is mostly a street car and i dont wish to have too much power down low which would just be dangerous at times.

there is a fellow in North Jersey with an STS setup but i think his car is broke if im not mistaken. but my recomendation to you is if you have the coin to step up to a front mount turbo setup. if not, go for the STS and be happy

[rgaynor85]

ive never been in a fi ls1 but i have had a turbo car before and my gf has a supercharged car, its tuff they r both fun to drive, the supercharger is just always there but then again if its a daily car the turbo will have better gas milage sense you dont have a belt turning the supercharer.pn the same note the turbo on a v8 probably will have like 0 spool time and might be similar to the supercharger except its easy to up and down boost with a EBC in the car for how your useing the car instead of changing pulleys, personally i like the vortech vq-9 kit with the aftercooler it looks nice to me but a twin turbo setup would be awsome

[Tru2Chevy]

A properly sized turbo shouldn't lag. It will spool right up with the motor. The only time you would have to worry about lag is if you want to use a huge turbo for lots of high RPM boost (I'm talking 20+ lbs at 7,000-8,000 RPM).

A nice street turbo setup should develop lots of torque...

- Justin

[qwikz28]

not quite guys...

a larger turbo will lag alot and bring peak power higher up in the rpm range which is better for racing.

a smaller turbo will not lag and will provide consistant power throughout the powerband but thats no fun ;)

what sucks about a small turbo is that there is no room for upgrade

what sucks about a big turbo is the price

[V]

ATI Procharger FTW...

ive been in turbo imports and they can be nasty fast with a large turbo, on a higher hp V8, i really dont see turbo lag ebing an issue sine the motor alone will probably smoke the tires and loose traction first.

In my SS build, im using an ATI supercharger just out of personal preference. Ive always loved the blower whine over the turbo sound anyday.

[Pampered-Z]

Actually on a street car either one will be fairly close. Normally a SC kit cost less then a turbo, the STS kit brings the price closer, but I think a small SC like a P1SC or S-trim is still the better bang for the buck on a street car and stock bottom end. Now a turbo vrs a S.C. both at 6lbs of boost the turbo will yield more top end HP because boost if free where a SC takes HP to turn so some of the power it makes goes right back into turning it.

If your going with 15+ lbs of boost or all out racing then the turbo has more advantages, but then again at that boost level you need a motor strong enough to support the HP so your already digging way deep into your pockets!

As far as low end power, don't confuse a roots style with a centrifugal S.C.
A roots style SC moves far more air at low RPMS, which is why they are spun at much lower RPMS, and will make boost/power from idle.

The centrifugal SC like the P1SC or S-trim will start making boost around 2,500-3,000 RPMs, a turbo ( based on it's size ) again, I'm using a Small Sc and Small turbo for 6lbs of boost max., the turbo won't make the same boost until you get closer to 4,000 RPMs. So you feel the added power quicker on a SC, but turbo lag is not that much of an issue as it was years ago. The technology applied over the last decade has improved them, and the new motors rev pretty good already.

[IROCdan330]

if you do go turbo...id say stay away from the remote mount one...i think thats the one that mounts at the rear of the vehicle?

yea, we have an 04 gto at school and (this is before i went there, i only saw the after effects) they installed a rear mount turbo system. its pretty cool how the boost controller was right under the rear bumper...but anyways...from the baseline on the gto to the turbo installed...they made less horsepower with the turbo on there. then they figured it wasnt enough boost, so they began turning that up, and melted a ring to a cylinder wall.

granted, some computer tuning and what not probably wouldve helped, but after i saw all this, saw the location of the turbo and all that...i dont like it.

id agree that an ATI procharger is the way to go.

[Tsar]

if you do go turbo...id say stay away from the remote mount one...i think thats the one that mounts at the rear of the vehicle?

yea, we have an 04 gto at school and (this is before i went there, i only saw the after effects) they installed a rear mount turbo system. its pretty cool how the boost controller was right under the rear bumper...but anyways...from the baseline on the gto to the turbo installed...they made less horsepower with the turbo on there. then they figured it wasnt enough boost, so they began turning that up, and melted a ring to a cylinder wall.

unless you provide me with a dyno sheet ill call BS. unless the guys who installed it didnt know what the hell they were doing? maybe it was like when that kit tryed to install nitrous and pluged it into the valve cover? :lol: maybe they just attached the turbo without any piping? :rofl:

how the hell to your turbo a car and get less horsepower, if it was properly set up?

[IROCdan330]

unless you provide me with a dyno sheet ill call BS. unless the guys who installed it didnt know what the hell they were doing? maybe it was like when that kit tryed to install nitrous and pluged it into the valve cover? :lol: maybe they just attached the turbo without any piping? :rofl:

how the hell to your turbo a car and get less horsepower, if it was properly set up?

hell if i know...i stated it was like that before i got there.
mind you when i say at school...i mean my tech school...in one of the "hot rod" classes...i guess thats why they tried the rear mount system.

[Tsar]

hell if i know...i stated it was like that before i got there.
mind you when i say at school...i mean my tech school...in one of the "hot rod" classes...i guess thats why they tried the rear mount system.
there's a guy on here with a rear mount LS1 and im pretty sure he pumps out more then stock numbers.

[IROCdan330]

there's a guy on here with a rear mount LS1 and im pretty sure he pumps out more then stock numbers.

ok...i didnt say every time a rear turbo is used your numbers go down and that will always happen no matter what you do theres no way around it. i gave one horror story.

back on topic.

i'm not sure if any guys on here are, but on some other forums there are quite a few ATI dealers that can get you a good price.

[JL8Jeff]

It depends on how much boost/power you want to make and how much you want to spend. I believe the Magnacharger is a roots style supercharger that fits the LS1 engine. I'm not sure what the limit is on an LS1 engine regarding boost on the stock internals but the LT1 is around 6-8 lbs of boost before the piston ringlands will let go. The turbo should have the better top end potential but might sacrifice bottom end. The supercharger whine is something you love or hate. I ran the Powerdyne 4.5 lb supercharger on my old 93 for almost 5 years and never had any problems and it was a blast to drive. And that only added 80-100 hp. So are you looking to add 150-300 hp and were you planning on building the engine specifically for boost? As for the STS rear mount turbo, the Two Guys Garage show installed one on an LS1 Camaro and dyno'd before and after and picked up some solid numbers at the rear wheels. No melted pistons either.

[rgaynor85]

not quite guys...

a larger turbo will lag alot and bring peak power higher up in the rpm range which is better for racing.

a smaller turbo will not lag and will provide consistant power throughout the powerband but thats no fun ;)

OK heres where i think your off at least IMHO. you say better for racing but what kinda of racing maybe high speed road course or highway street racing yes, and you say consistant more hp through the powerband maybe no fun cause you dont get the hit of boost all of a sudden maybe but HP under the curve is where good track times come from peak numbers really dont mean anything its about making good numbers thru ur rpm range. thats how we get our 350-400hp cars to run deep 11's when most people cant. its just like the supras dont get me wrong there fast and make rediculous numbers but they are for the most part highway monsters and blow for drag alot of times. i would think a smaller or medium size turbo to keep boost in more rpms and a good suspension tire setup to hook would be better. if im wrong tell me but thats why i beleieve.

[qwikz28]

OK heres where i think your off at least IMHO. you say better for racing but what kinda of racing maybe high speed road course or highway street racing yes, and you say consistant more hp through the powerband maybe no fun cause you dont get the hit of boost all of a sudden maybe but HP under the curve is where good track times come from peak numbers really dont mean anything its about making good numbers thru ur rpm range. thats how we get our 350-400hp cars to run deep 11's when most people cant. its just like the supras dont get me wrong there fast and make rediculous numbers but they are for the most part highway monsters and blow for drag alot of times. i would think a smaller or medium size turbo to keep boost in more rpms and a good suspension tire setup to hook would be better. if im wrong tell me but thats why i beleieve.
well i was speaking in terms of huge turbo single digit drag cars but i see what your saying

[rgaynor85]

ok i am not sure how it would be in that case but i figured we were talkin about a street/strip car

[95firebirdconvertible]

I don't know too much about either of them, but from what I do know, I would go with the Supercharger.

[PureSpeed]

Im looking for about a 100+ HP gain. I know im gonna have to upgrade my internals, thats a given. So from the sounds of it, the superchargers are more preffered for our cars but are all the things im hearing true? such as the SC belts breaking and various other problems? Should i worry about this with the proper tune and installation? And since im looking into superchargers now, what brands do you prefer that are reasonably priced?

Thanks everyone, really appreciating the help

[rgaynor85]

well the d1-sc prochargers are popular, the vortechs are nice and the powerdynes are cheap. for a 100hp gain from boost you dont need to upgrade your internals i wouldnt think just a good tune, 100hp probably will come from like 4-6psi people make like 470rwhp from around 9-10psi on stock internals. u just gotto tune it. the tuning doctors in trenton is who u wanna talk to for that. but you are gonna say goodbye to that rear probably and a stock clutch

[qwikz28]

well the d1-sc prochargers are popular, the vortechs are nice and the powerdynes are cheap. for a 100hp gain from boost you dont need to upgrade your internals i wouldnt think just a good tune, 100hp probably will come from like 4-6psi people make like 470rwhp from around 9-10psi on stock internals. u just gotto tune it. the tuning doctors in trenton is who u wanna talk to for that. but you are gonna say goodbye to that rear probably and a stock clutch
with a turbo or supercharger you will need:

a new rear
a new clutch
new pushrods and possibly pistons and rings
new spark plugs and wires
new injectors
new fuel pump and related accessories
a good tune

that is the bare minimum. the general rule of thumb for FI is add up all the parts and accessories you know you will need and all the upgraded parts i listed above installed and stuff and then double it. thats generally how much it will cost in the end

[NJSPEEDER]

a turbo is the more efficiant and power root to go, even at equal peak boost levels you will see a turbo far out perform a crank driven supercharger.
the reason is simple, the engine has to rev up to spool the blower. with a turbo the exhaust gases are already spooling it at idle.
most superchargers are rated for boost at 5500-6000 rpm, which means that is where you have to spin it to see and maintain that boost level. a turbo on the other hand, if sized properly, can easily reach peak boost by 3000rpm.
there is also the problem of the drag that it takes jsut to spin up a supercharger. i have seen power waste estimates as low as 12% and as high as 20% for centrifugal style superchargers.
turbos also have fewer moving parts to maintain, service, and worry about the failure of.
a single turbo really is the way to go. there are a bunch of companies that make underhood kits and sts has shown great success with rear mount kits for 4th gens. the kits will cost more than most of the standard supercharger kits on the market.
i am not saying superchargers don't make good power, there are enough guys around to prove they are good power adders. jsut trying to point out that a turbo will create more power across a larger portion of the power band.

[redbanditZ28]

I am going with Cartek who seems to know a lot about the STS rear mount turbo. Thats what i am getting done. I am getting a new forged block with heads, throttle bod, qtp headers, and the rear mount turbo. He says i should def run high nines or low 10's with the setup and it would still be very streetable assuming i run low boost on street. As it is, they have lots of 9 second vettes and trans ams and camaros already and i even talked to two owners of them and they had no complaints. But not everyone likes cartek on here and i guess i'll either find out the hard way or i will be completely satisfied. But they said the STS turbo is a really good setup and thats what a lot of the 9 sec vettes and f-bods are using at cartek. So i am going that way. But i am sure superchargers get great results too. I am sure no one would disagree if i said, if you get the right person to build it, then all the probs you may hear about the super ot turbo charger system will be put to rest.

[qwikz28]

you'll always find someone who doesnt like a shop. its all opinion

[Savage_Messiah]

I am going with Cartek who seems to know a lot about the STS rear mount turbo. Thats what i am getting done. I am getting a new forged block with heads, throttle bod, qtp headers, and the rear mount turbo. He says i should def run high nines or low 10's with the setup and it would still be very streetable assuming i run low boost on street. As it is, they have lots of 9 second vettes and trans ams and camaros already and i even talked to two owners of them and they had no complaints. But not everyone likes cartek on here and i guess i'll either find out the hard way or i will be completely satisfied. But they said the STS turbo is a really good setup and thats what a lot of the 9 sec vettes and f-bods are using at cartek. So i am going that way. But i am sure superchargers get great results too. I am sure no one would disagree if i said, if you get the right person to build it, then all the probs you may hear about the super ot turbo charger system will be put to rest.

I've heard a few horror stories from F-body owners about them, enough for me to never want to take my car there.

[BobonaStick]

I'm working on a twin rear mount turbo for my 85 Z/28... supposedly it will create more power in the mid to high rpm range without as much lag... even tho i stole 2 turbos from an international tow truck :lol:

[JL8Jeff]

If he's just looking to pick up 100 hp then a supercharger is the way to go. He could even get away with the Powerdyne setup to keep costs as low as possible. But I would look into the Powerdyne, ATI or Vortech superchargers. They will range anywhere from $3000-$5500 with the ATI and Vortech being more expensive but also giving more room for expansion in the future. If the car won't be driven like a daily driver then the rear mount turbo is still not a bad idea. I just don't like all that extra stuff hanging on the bottom of the car.

[Tru2Chevy]

But not everyone likes cartek on here and i guess i'll either find out the hard way or i will be completely satisfied. But they said the STS turbo is a really good setup and thats what a lot of the 9 sec vettes and f-bods are using at cartek. So i am going that way.

The guys in the shop there do some nice work, I've gotten the chance to inspect one of their TT Z06's up close while they were fabricating the mounts for the intercooler. After past experiences, I just wouldn't let them tune the car....

- Justin

[PureSpeed]

this car is a daily driver for now but i wanna be able to make an even bigger point on the street than i do now. I also wanna be able to take it to either E-town or Island and run some nice numbers :D. im still undecided on which set up i wanna go with :-/

[Brando56894]

if you wanna do that then id say go with a turbo and get an electronic boost controller. you could run 3 psi on the street and 10 at the track (that is obviously if your car/engine is setup for it but u get the point) :twisted:

[Ian]

Jakes list of things you need to replace is a bit on the "cover your ass" side. You dont need everything on that list, but you definitly need the fuel system stuff. more air going into the motor means you'll need more fuel.

If this is just a street car that will see the track every now and then, I'd go with a centrifugal supercharger. There is nothing wrong with either power adder when set up properly, but the supercharger will be a simpler install (dont have to change exhaust setup amongst other things).

Turbos are better overall than superchargers for a ton of reasons....but definitly not cost :lol: . Turbos are more tune-able and will make more power in a max effort motor (ever notice that turbo cars have the most handicaps in bracket racing?), but thats only gonna happen in a race car, not a street car.

either way you decide to go, you're gonna love it! good luck.






i stole 2 turbos from an international tow truck

let me know how those spool up :lol:

[Shrek]

Okay, not like it matters, and I dont read all of the posts, cuz I dont have the patience for that ****, but, my opinion, is, your eventually going to need to build up your bottom end, 100hp, isn't that much when talking boost, this is why I say eventually, the stock bottom end can't handle large amounts of boost for too long. Turbo is always the way to go, they are more efficient. They take exhaust gases, and put them to use, superchargers rob power, in order to make power. I've seen a couple turbo cars turning some serious numbers at the track, that were completly spooled up, at 2500 rpm...This is possible with small to mid size turbos, I've always been a TT kinda guy as well...THis way you dont have to worry about turbo lag, I know i guy that had a twin turbo 93 rx7 when i lived in Japan...he then "upgraded" to a Large 90mm turbo...He actaully saw a drop in his drag times...and no, the fact that i'm talking rotory motor, doen'st have anything to do with it...just my two cents...as usual...

Shrek

[1972LT1]

You might want to check one of the magazines like Car Craft,Hot Rod,or Super Chevy. Iremember reading an article about a new type of supercharger that has the benefits of both without the drawbacks. I believe the company is called Rotrex. Sorry I can't remember which mag but it was published within the last year.

[Tru2Chevy]

You might want to check one of the magazines like Car Craft,Hot Rod,or Super Chevy. Iremember reading an article about a new type of supercharger that has the benefits of both without the drawbacks. I believe the company is called Rotrex. Sorry I can't remember which mag but it was published within the last year.

Basic info on the Rotrex blower: http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/t-techRotrex-2.aspx

- Justin

[BobonaStick]

Basic info on the Rotrex blower: http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/t-techRotrex-2.aspx

- Justin


Bleh... I still like my truck turbos better :lol:

[Savage_Messiah]

let me know if those spool up :lol:

fixed :lol:

[Ian]

he'd be lucky if he could spool up a powerstroke turbo, let alone an international turbo :roll:

[NJLT1SS]

My first choice would be a turbo kit from PTK (mounts under the hood), followed by a centrifical supercharger. I have seen 2 F-Bodys with the rear mount turbo setup, and I think its a horrible setup. The pipes hang really low, pressure tubing runs under the axle, its just really ghetto lookin to me.

[BobonaStick]

he'd be lucky if he could spool up a powerstroke turbo, let alone an international turbo :roll:



Don't doubt the power!!! I already have the specs...

[PureSpeed]

the rotrex is a centrifugal supercharger thats fairly small but will provide sufficient amounts of boost. only downside is that you dont get the traditional supercharger "whine" See i wanna be able to pull up next to a cobra and when they rev at me i wanna rev back and make them cry :twisted:

[NJSPEEDER]

I am going with Cartek who seems to know a lot about the STS rear mount turbo.

TTP has done several STS installs and tuned for them as well. they also happen to be sponsors of the club :)

[Ian]

the rotrex is a centrifugal supercharger thats fairly small but will provide sufficient amounts of boost. only downside is that you dont get the traditional supercharger "whine" See i wanna be able to pull up next to a cobra and when they rev at me i wanna rev back and make them cry :twisted:

OOOOHHHHH! well if thats what you're going for, I think Kenne Bell makes blowers for LSX motors now :wink:

[rgaynor85]

but they dont fit under an fbodys hood that ledge over 1/2 the motor prevents it only the vettes use them magnacharger makes them to

[PureSpeed]

mmmmm kenne bell twin screw..haha yea thats what i origionally wanted but i read in this thread that kenne bell doesnt make one for and ls1 :/ And if they do make a blower for the ls1 and it doesnt fit under the hood...then ill just get a massive hood scoop haha

[rgaynor85]

its not the hood thats the problem its that large ledge than comes out over our engine.

[Tru2Chevy]

its not the hood thats the problem its that large ledge than comes out over our engine.

That's the cowl....

- Justin

[Tru2Chevy]

mmmmm kenne bell twin screw..haha yea thats what i origionally wanted but i read in this thread that kenne bell doesnt make one for and ls1 :/ And if they do make a blower for the ls1 and it doesnt fit under the hood...then ill just get a massive hood scoop haha

They make a blower for the LSx motors, but it won't fit under the F-Body cowl.

http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/gm/Corvette/gmCorvette.htm

- Justin

[Brando56894]

bah who needs a cowl anyway?? :lol:

[Savage_Messiah]

Brando proves himself "slow" once again :rofl:

[rgaynor85]

oh im used to callin a cowl a hood not that thing but ok

[Savage_Messiah]

technically that area is referred to as the cowl... cowl hoods are actually called, IIRC, cowl induction hoods due to the opening being at the cowl...

[Brando56894]

Brando proves himself "slow" once again :rofl:

:confused: