any carpenters here? i have a roof/ceiling question...

[V]

Ok, i am getting closer to instal my lift in my garage, but i first need to figure out what i'm doing with the ceiling. If you know carpentry and framing, your advice would be appreciated....

Right now, the ceiling height is 9'. that is high enough to fit the lift and for me to lift a car enough to do a considerable amount of work on it. But if i want the car to go higher. i need to open up the roof to acess the attic/crawl space above the garage. My garage is about 15' wide x 30' deep. The roof line runs paralell to the garage door (so basically the garagedoor/front wall and the back wall support the roof where the gutters are) anyways. i went up in the attic above to see how the ceiling joists are attached to the rafters. however, all i saw was that the ceiling joists have no real connection to the roof. The ceiling joists run paralell to the roof line as well and go from side wall to side wall with no connection even in the middle to connect up to the rafters. the crawl space is about 4-5' high at the roofline. Now i know ceilign joists usually run perpendicular to the roof line in order to support the roof from bowing out away from the house, but thats not how it is in this case. I am thinking of removing 2/3 of the ceiling and only leaving the first 10feet or so(to support the garage door opener) and then make that 10' a storage "loft" area. I would put insulation and ventilation channel pieces in the rafters and finish them with sheetrock. By doing all that, i would give myself more than enough room in the middle/back of the garage for the lift(garage is only about 2' less than 2 camaros deep). I can provide pictures if anyone needs to see what i'm talking about. Tomorrow or sunday i'm going to try to get a contractor to come look at it(gf's good family friend). I need to remove all the sheetrock/drywall currently on the flat ceiling anyway since it is all dropping from being installed with nails and not screws 24 years ago.

[Untamed]

however, all i saw was that the ceiling joists have no real connection to the roof.

Yeah pictures would be good, because the joists and stringers not only hold up the ceiling of the garage, but the roof itself. I'm having a hard time imagining how the joists are in place and not holding anything up. :scratches head:

Since you are planning to put the lift in anyway, removing the sheetrock for the pics would be great.

[V]

heres one picture. the main joists have the insulation packed around them. the peices of wood on top are just plain 2x4s nailed down and they really dont seem structural.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d50/SmokingSS/ceiling.jpg

[Rich189]

i know a little bit bout it and sounds and looks like it might work but im def no carpenter... just did some work with my uncle who is

[Tsar]

um...triangle is the strongest structure thing there is. if you wanna cut a whole in the middle of it and cut those fat support "i-beams" you would have to reinforce the roof in some other way.

[Untamed]

Ah ok, yeah. You -can- remove a few of the joists without any real structural damage or threat to the roof, however... the joists really are there for a reason. What you do to reinforce the missing sections is build a box out of 2x10's around the opening, T-ing the joists to the box with a combination of mending plates (metal plates with holes in them for nails) and metal joints (metal plates with spikes or cletes that you hammer into the wood). Don't just toe-in nails to joint the joists with the box. Remember that joists aren't compressing, so they wont push against the box, they run the width/length of the house, with other 2x10's attached to run the entire length.

Before you begin remember to check the joists for attached junction boxes or electrical wires. They will have to be relocated if necessary. Secondly, make sure there isn't any ducting beneath the insulation. If so... moving that is a pain and will definately take more time. The more bends in the ducting, the more disruption to airflow / chance for condensation, espcially if the attic will have a hole in it, exposing it to more outside air. Lastly, consider what is being stored up there (if anything) and what a hole in the ceiling in the garage will do to the items up there. While attics have venting on at least one side, if not two, the added humidity and generally cooler temperatures may affect the stuff up there. There aren't large holes in ceilings for a reason - not the least of which is exposed insulation which may fall down from time to time, spreading the fiberglass around. Not a good thing to have in the air when working on engine block internals.

Ok, here's the last thing - selling your house. When it comes time to sell your house, any home inspector with half a brain will stick his head up into the attic over the garage and look for roof warpage, leakage, mold / humidity signs and so on. If he sees the box, or if you;ve repaired it and have a few mending boards across the spot where the board was, it'll send up all kinds of red flags, and prompt all kinds of questions. Seriously consider the re-sale of your house before you start changing the structural integrity of the house. Removing the sophet over a load bearing, internal doorway is one thing - removing joists is a whole other thing.

Remember - these are ideas. I have never done this before but have seen it done on a smaller scale, for a second attic entrance. I would not recommend you do anything of what I posted above, however it's an idea for you to consider if you are hell-bent on doing it. Just consider the consequences, short and long term, before you decide.

[Tru2Chevy]

I'll get my brother to check this tonight. He's a union carpenter - really knows his stuff.

- Justin

[Malibu79]

First off i have never seen any building in which the joists run opposite the rafters it throws off the whole purpose of the joists. It looks like it was an add on with either a retarted contractor or a previous owner who thought they knew what they were doing. Reguarding the project in mind it is usually possible depending on the hole desired compared to the overall garage size it is not a quick project or a simple one at that. It requires carefull planing about supporting the roof and keeping the walls from pulling out due to weight of the roof. Not to mention that u would have to get a permit due to resale and safety
if someone comes to look at ur house and sees major modifications they are not going to want to hear that "yea a couple of my friends and i did it and we are almost positive that it is structurly sound" as apposed to having a written document saying that the work was checked and perfectly sound

so i am not saying that it is not impossibe but it not something to be taken lightly alot has to be done to pull it off