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johnjzjz
07-19-2006, 09:52 AM
The other night thirty five of us had the pleasure of hearing General Jack Keane speak at a
black-tie affair on current events in the Middle East. Gen Keane, a four-star, is the former
(2 years ago) Vice Chief of Staff and Chief of Operations of the U.S. Army. He regularly visits Iraq and briefs our leaders. In the past he has been responsible for joint-force activities in the Middle East , and now as a civilian speaks his mind rather freely. Our group was international in scope, U.S. / British / Irish / Dutch / New Zealand, mostly ex-military from all the services, with a heavy sprinkling from the highest ranks. Despite our similar backgrounds, the whole spectrum of views was present. The point is, Gen. Keane was neither speaking to the
emotional uninformed, nor to a group that needed "kid gloves". His speech was mesmerizing, with the comments below being my recollections:

The vast middle class, in both Iraq and Iran, want no part of violence, but are afraid for their families, so do not often speak out. This is why they love voting at polls, as their views remain individually anonymous. Most fully embrace democracy.

This will be an 8 or 9 year effort, which has always been known. It just takes that long for the citizenry to assimilate change.

Iraqi Shia (Arabic) and Iranian Shia (Persian) are at great odds with each other. As democracy takes hold, Iraq will reject control from Iranian Mullahs.

Each surge in violence is tied to democratic political gains, as insurgents see their position being weakened. As the Chicago Tribune said, "A unified, free, and democratic Iraq is what they fear most."

Other than for "surgical" operations, there is no long term advantage to mass killing insurgents, as they are being born faster than we can find them. Most are from other countries, sent to Iraq by their leader (Osama) on a "god given" mission. They know we value life greatly, while it means little to them. Since they have predominantly collected in one place, we can take the fight to them, or they can bring it to us. They have a passion for their mission that will only change as democracy shows a better way for most. Any withdrawal by us will only energize their efforts, convincing them of our lack of moral fiber.

Osama's master plan is to destroy the United States, not because he dislikes us, but because we are the epitome of western values which are a threat to his followers' way of life. They intend to do this through control of energy, which they believe enables everything we are. They believe we are morally weak and will not respond to our destruction. They cite the bombing of embassies, Kobar Towers, military installations, and the first World Trade Tower incident, about which we have done nothing but protest in the past. The anti-war rallies play right into their hands, as they see we don't have the stomach to stop them.

They know we have the strongest military on earth, so don't intend to provoke us that way.

They think we have the strength and they have the "guts".

Whether we are in Iraq or not will have no affect on their continued attacks on the United States. Our withdrawal would only validate our lack of resolve to respond.

They have a definitive plan to destroy an American city, taking around 300,000 lives with it. Their goal is to crash our economic system by taking the stock market, which finances our lifestyle, down. They also think Europe is easy pickings, as they don't have the moral courage to fight back, but taking us on is more effective in destroying Western lifestyle.

They see socialized countries like France as examples of Western fracture and weakness.

Rumsfeld is a tough man, but generals are supposed to be able to deal with tough men. For the initial invasion, the generals wanted a larger force (as they always do), but Rumsfeld said Iraq had already been severely weakened in the last go-around, so a smaller force would be adequate. In fact the "shock and awe" force worked extremely well. Mistakes were made, as they always are, but overall the military executed superlatively well. What was not anticipated adequately was the lack of consistent support from other departments, like State, which have constantly rotating staffs in Iraq. Their personnel do short-tours to enhance their resume's, but few have the passion to develop relationships and stick with the mission. He feels Rumsfeld is the right man, working tirelessly to look ahead and do the right thing. The dissenting generals for the most part worked for General Keane, and he says he respects their views, but they are trying to fight the "last" war. The more successful generals are looking ahead to the reality that Iraq is not about large numbers and military might. It is about adapting to change.

One of our mistakes has been the "P.R." effort to sugar coat results. Gen. Keane believes we should tell it like it is.

The Iraqi Army has made great strides, but will never be up to our standard. They fight well and have taken over 23 of our bases. The Iraqi Police Force is another matter that must be addressed, as it is infiltrated with insurgents.

26 Universities are functioning well, offering forums for public debate and intellectual scrutiny.

Do not take Iran lightly. They are serious about their goals, and will have nuclear weapons that will enhance their control of petroleum. Europe will not have the courage to do anything about it. The U.N. will do little beyond passing resolutions. Iran is too well fortified for us to have a decent chance of neutralizing their weapons programs. Israel has no chance of doing
so. The hard truth is they will develop nuclear weapons and we will have to live with that. How is not known. This is a dangerous world development without an apparent solution. Iran wants us to invade, knowing that will solidify the region far more effectively than the insurgency.

His main fear is that they see our protests and opinion polls as validating our moral weakness, vulnerability, lack of courage, unity and purpose. They see our response to 911 as a short attention span. They have changed nothing.

I am not sure I got everything exactly as he meant it, but you surely get the flavor of his remarks. No matter how you feel about our efforts, if you heard Gen. Keane speak, you would recognize his extraordinary regional knowledge, passion, and desire to do the right thing. He has devoted his life to understanding this threat, is open minded about solutions, and I for one feel comfortable that we have such a man so close to the helm.

JL8Jeff
07-19-2006, 10:48 AM
That's one of the big problems with people here in the United States, they think if we leave them all alone the problem will go away. It won't. And our dependance on oil is incredible and they know that's the easiest way to hurt us. Just look what the hurricanes did to us. It still think the change in Chinese culture will be more of a problem for the whole planet. They are already grabbing more and more resources and I don't see their demand dropping any time soon. But the hardest thing to deal with is the differences in the Muslim and Islamic sects. They hate each other but seem to have a common belief.:scratch:

johnjzjz
07-19-2006, 06:56 PM
That's one of the big problems with people here in the United States, they think if we leave them all alone the problem will go away. It won't. And our dependance on oil is incredible and they know that's the easiest way to hurt us. Just look what the hurricanes did to us. It still think the change in Chinese culture will be more of a problem for the whole planet. They are already grabbing more and more resources and I don't see their demand dropping any time soon. But the hardest thing to deal with is the differences in the Muslim and Islamic sects. They hate each other but seem to have a common belief.:scratch:


the bunch that thinks we can just ignore it and it will go away well you know, i just hope they can stop them from getting to us again, and those traders at the NY Times are looking to help them, the flip side look at the Chinese is we have opened the door for a 3rd class in China, Something they never had, what will happen when the 3rd class gets rich and powerfull and its happining right now, yes they want more oil and everything else their own houses, cars, freedom yep they will start killing each other in what 10 years or sooner than the **** will hit the fan compaired to whats going on now ya think jz

Untamed
07-20-2006, 09:01 AM
As soon as we find a way to move a significant amount of our oil use to some other form of energy, we'll take the wind right outta their sails. America, the oil addicts - stop taking the drug, and the pushers will move somewhere else.

jims69camaro
07-20-2006, 02:32 PM
As soon as we find a way to move a significant amount of our oil use to some other form of energy, we'll take the wind right outta their sails. America, the oil addicts - stop taking the drug, and the pushers will move somewhere else.

this issue is far greater than our addiction to oil. i, for one, will never give up my hobby cars and therefore, will never give up on gasoline as the primary energy source for them. while my 'daily' might become an alternative fuel vehicle, i will still be dependent on gasoline in some form or another. i understand the carb conversion for E85 is not that difficult.

this is about war. most americans think the war is over, but osama and his lackeys are just getting started. stick your head in the sand while they shoot your ass off. ignoring a problem has never been the solution and it never will be. i like the way that general thinks. i don't think he's a war monger or whatever you want to categorize him as - i think he thinks clearly about this situation and even has some good foresight about what it will take to get through this with the minimum loss of life.

it's easy to say that a war will cost lives, but how many lives were lost before the war was even started? (actually, in looking back at that statement, i guss you can call september 11, 2001, the start of the war - at least on their part) how many lives were lost in the initial attack on the WTC?

i had to take my wife into NY this past monday, so i suggested that we take a walk to the WTC site. i have to say, it's one thing to see it being reported on the news and seeing pictures of it, etc., but seeing it in person is a very emotional, eye-opening experience. the square footage involved in the destruction is huge. i got very emotional and could barely walk around the site.

i have felt very strongly about this subject since sept. 2001, and visiting the site has only strengthened my resolve. the islamic extremists have to be put out of our misery. period. they will not stop. they will keep coming until we are all dead. when will enough life lost be enough for the bleeding hearts to finally realize that there is nothing to be gained by burying their heads in the sand?

i agree that pulling troops out of the region shows them (the extremists) our lack of resolve and our short attention span. maybe we need another bombing here to wake some of these people up... even as much as i dread another american life being lost due to our inability to act and foresee such an action coming down the road, which it is and will be here before you know it.

johnjzjz
07-20-2006, 07:23 PM
this issue is far greater than our addiction to oil. i, for one, will never give up my hobby cars and therefore, will never give up on gasoline as the primary energy source for them. while my 'daily' might become an alternative fuel vehicle, i will still be dependent on gasoline in some form or another. i understand the carb conversion for E85 is not that difficult.

this is about war. most americans think the war is over, but osama and his lackeys are just getting started. stick your head in the sand while they shoot your ass off. ignoring a problem has never been the solution and it never will be. i like the way that general thinks. i don't think he's a war monger or whatever you want to categorize him as - i think he thinks clearly about this situation and even has some good foresight about what it will take to get through this with the minimum loss of life.

it's easy to say that a war will cost lives, but how many lives were lost before the war was even started? (actually, in looking back at that statement, i guss you can call september 11, 2001, the start of the war - at least on their part) how many lives were lost in the initial attack on the WTC?

i had to take my wife into NY this past monday, so i suggested that we take a walk to the WTC site. i have to say, it's one thing to see it being reported on the news and seeing pictures of it, etc., but seeing it in person is a very emotional, eye-opening experience. the square footage involved in the destruction is huge. i got very emotional and could barely walk around the site.

i have felt very strongly about this subject since sept. 2001, and visiting the site has only strengthened my resolve. the islamic extremists have to be put out of our misery. period. they will not stop. they will keep coming until we are all dead. when will enough life lost be enough for the bleeding hearts to finally realize that there is nothing to be gained by burying their heads in the sand?

i agree that pulling troops out of the region shows them (the extremists) our lack of resolve and our short attention span. maybe we need another bombing here to wake some of these people up... even as much as i dread another american life being lost due to our inability to act and foresee such an action coming down the road, which it is and will be here before you know it.


The WTC site has a two way street for me, i grew up in NYC in the village and when my oldest son was around 21 years old, i got him a local 15 operating engineer union book -- its for downtown NYC -- wheir i am from in 2000, than 2001 one came, he was assigned the pit being an oiler to re fuel the standby equiptment, lighting systems, generators, and alike, he was their twice every day to re fuel, from the first day till the FBI closed the job site it being finished, he draged the hoses over the cops, fireman, and the people who had been killed, by this bunch we are talking about, i have many pictures of the fellers who worked the pit as it was known to them, some have come down with awfull stuff ( medically ) and some have died --the 911 commission has been looking into and at all the guys who were their, and he did not escape unscaved, he has a thing his heart stops while hes sleeping scary at 28, some of the 17 doctors he sees think its a PTSD thing, i hope they find out for sure, ( its not over for some ) and to think i have had some people say to me they dont believe 911 was anything to have conserned about, some of the storys from the guys are heart breaking, and yet we have people on this site who said they would rather go to another country rather than defend America, stating blood for oil, or some other ********, look around at who you would want next to you if the day ever comes, and the next election will determin weather the USA will still be around as we knew it - jz

jims69camaro
07-24-2006, 01:46 PM
nicely said.