327 Need some opinions

[r0nin89]

Basically I am seeking the opinion of people on here about my 327 build. The reason I come here is because back on TGO they bash anything thats not a 350,383, or 400. So I'll tell you why I decided to go with a 327. Besides the fact that I got my block for free my uncle pursuaded me to do a 327 rather than a 355 when i was talking ti him about swapping it in. He said he felt the engine was more proven and a better platform than a 350 and that being my car was gonna be a daily driver it would yeild better streetability and gas mileage.

Now I went to TGO and asked some opinions on the build and had included that I ordered a 468hp 327 build up guide ect ect. The first response I got was pretty good about a 327 being a great motor and than everyone on TGO will give you ****, and like he said I got 8 more replys of why start with the same engine but with less cubes, 350's were designed to replace them, and your uncle is living in the past when 327 was king sbc but it isnt anymore. So I am coming here because I know we have guys here with knowledge and open mindedness that have spanned work from 307's-LS1's. So I know I can make good power with a 327 but the question is whats the downside to the 327 and the upside to a 350?

[V]

well, i think its good you want to be a little different, but what do you want out tof the motor? your uncle said it was more proven and a better platform than the 350...that i really dont agree with. However i am not bashing you lol. Then you mentioned better mileage, along with 468hp build up... well, 468hp, and "good mileage" dotn go together. at that hp level a 327 or 355 will still drink gas and the possible slight difference will not be noticeable. I believe theres just a better aftermarket for the 350 based parts and in turn thye are perhaps cheaper. I know what you are talking about on TGO, we do the same here with 305s, and there are some members who love them and run respectable times. so that proves even the smaller motors can be built good. IMO it comes down to cost, ie it cost more(not always much) to get a smaller displacement motor the the same hp level as a larger one.

[bad64chevelle]

I have a 327 in the Chevelle and cannot complain at all. It makes great power and revs very quickly. The only problem I can think of is that I swapped from a canister type oil filter to a screw on type and I cannot get it to stop leaking. I know others have successfully done this swap and it doesnt leak, so I think it is just my application. I dont know how much power I am making, or anything like that but I can tell you once I get rid of the bum transmission the car should really move. I like going to shows and people always asking if its a 350 and they are always amazed that theres a 327 in the car, even though they originaly came with them. I say go with what you have since it came at a good price, you will make similar power as a 350. In response to paul I dont think the cost will be too much different between building a 327 or a 350. I know my buddy has a 350 built very very similar to mine and both vehicles perform very similarly, but he always tells me how my engine revs alot faster than his does through the gears. Its your choice, they are very similar engines, I say be different and use that 327!

[r0nin89]

Yeah my goal is to make around 400hp to carry me in mid to low 13's. I'm thinking even with that power gasmileage wont be too bad around 15mpg driving like an old lady. If anyone has a link to a good 400-450hp build please post it. I already ordered a book on how to build a HiPo 460hp and 5xx horsepower 327 so I know I can go that high but just wanna look at some other options and good performance combos.

PS: I heard 327's like less cam than 350's and still make a better more powerful curve is that true?

o btw the goal is to beat the snot out of ricer burners... Think theres a honda doing high 12's in my town but that might be an exaggeration...

[bad64chevelle]

yeah I wish I had gone with a smaller cam on my 327, They tend to like smaller cam. As for gas mileage I am using the built 327 (331 .030 over) with a TH350 and 4:10 gears I get 10 MPG. I think with a more streetable gear, a trans thats not about to blow up and some small changes with the motor I could keep the power and raise the mileage to 15. I will let you know how my mileage changes when I swap out to the 4speed this fall. If you have any questions, or want to check out my setup let me know. The engine is very strong but the trans is holding it back. The way it sits with the bad trans its quicker than my Z28 is, and my guess is the camaro would run 13.4ish area. Depending on what youre puting the motor into I dont see why you couldnt have a similar setup go a bit faster than your goal.

[V]

400 flywheel hp should put you in the 12's, If i'm correct, about 300rwhp will get you to low 13's. 15 mpg would be nice, but thats what my truck gets and its a stock 350 fuel injected.

but yea, a mild built 327, with aftermarkets heads, intake, and cam should meet your needs.

[bad64chevelle]

Once I get a 4speed and some slicks I will be taking the car to the track, my goal is a 12.9. Its a punched over 327 cammed, Dart II heads, RPM intake, and quite a bit more. I dont think I will have a problem meeting that goal, but only time will tell.

[Ian]

the reason everyone tells you to go with a bigger motor is because its easier to make power if you have more displacement. not saying you cant make a lot of power with a 327 (you sure as hell can), but its easier to make the same power with a larger motor. the bigger motor will not have to be as high strung to make that power either.

If there is one thing I learned, its to do what makes you happy. if you want a 327, build up a 327. I personally have always wanted to build up a nasty little 302 with a solid roller cam, 4.56 gears and a T-56...now that would be a hell of a lot of fun!

[WildBillyT]

Everybody loves to bash the 327 when it's compared to the 350 because of less cubes, but then mention a 302 and they damn near drop a nut. :scratch:

The highest rated Gen I smallblock was a 327/375.

I think you can totally do it. The only thing I would be concerned about is cam and gear selection since you will be sacrificing torque compared to a 350.

[WayFast84]

I say do what makes you happy.

I would have been happy with my lg4 and full exhuast, but no everyone on tgo, and other sites bashed me about being slow. Now Im loosing my mind with my car..so do what you want and makes you happy!

[BonzoHansen]

I like your move to be different! Kudos! Most people on the internet are idiots anyway. :)

Go to http://www.camaros.net/forums/index.php and search 327, especially look for posts by pdq67. Paul knows thse old engines. I'll bet you can spend all afternoon just searching & reading over there. Also try http://www.chevelles.com/forums/index.php too. And maybe http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/ Those sites offer so much info that can be used across makes/models, it's nuts, especally Team Chevelle & Hotrodders.

Ian, build a high winding 302!!!!!!!!! Love that sound of 8k SBC. Just bring your wallet. :laugh:

[r0nin89]

Well thanks. It seems that people on TGO under estimate HP. I've been told that I'd need 450hp wheels to make a 13 flat. Whats the real figure in a car around 3500lb's with how our cars hookup? Im definatly building the 327 now though...

[V]

well ls1 cars with around 3500 and stock suspension are getting into low 13s bone stock and most dyno right around 300rwhp. qwikz28 dynoed around 330 rwhp with a lid and exhaust only and he should be around high 12's. Another friend of mine dynoed 427rwhp and turned a 11.7 in a close-to-full weight 98 Z28.

[r0nin89]

Thanks that sounds good for me

[Tru2Chevy]

I say go for the 327, cost won't be much different than a 350 build, and it will be unique. As far as power levels go, 400 hp would put you deep into the 12s as long as the rest of the car was setup properly.

- Justin

Edit...I just threw together a quick 327 combo on Desktop Dyno 2000. This should just give you an idea of what you can do with it.

Heads: AFR 190s w/ 2.02/1.60 valves
Comp. Ratio: 10.0:1
Carb: 750cfm
Intake: std. single plane
Cam: Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 268 H-10 (.477/.480, 224/230 @ .050, 110 LSA)

Peak HP: 414 @ 6,000 RPM
Peak TQ: 403 @ 4,500 RPM

Also made at least 315 lb-ft of tq from 2,000 RPM to 6,000 RPM.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Basically I am seeking the opinion of people on here about my 327 build. The reason I come here is because back on TGO they bash anything thats not a 350,383, or 400. So I'll tell you why I decided to go with a 327. Besides the fact that I got my block for free my uncle pursuaded me to do a 327 rather than a 355 when i was talking ti him about swapping it in. He said he felt the engine was more proven and a better platform than a 350 and that being my car was gonna be a daily driver it would yeild better streetability and gas mileage.

Now I went to TGO and asked some opinions on the build and had included that I ordered a 468hp 327 build up guide ect ect. The first response I got was pretty good about a 327 being a great motor and than everyone on TGO will give you ****, and like he said I got 8 more replys of why start with the same engine but with less cubes, 350's were designed to replace them, and your uncle is living in the past when 327 was king sbc but it isnt anymore. So I am coming here because I know we have guys here with knowledge and open mindedness that have spanned work from 307's-LS1's. So I know I can make good power with a 327 but the question is whats the downside to the 327 and the upside to a 350?

Like everything in life, there is a tradeoff. Cubes=torque Less cubes=less torque. HP = (torque * RPM) / 5250. That said if you want a given HP level, then a smaller motor will need more RPM to generate the same HP. So if you are willing to spin the 327 a bit and run more gear, then go for it....You can make the same power as a 355, but you will need to spin it a bit more. That begs the next question? Are you willing to spend $$$$$$ to accomodate the upgrades to spin the motor to a higher RPM??? If so build the 327.

A 327 that makes 468 hp at the flywheel is doing pretty good, that's 1.43 hp per cube, I'd image that's a motor that's spinning 6000-6500rpm regularly (a sorta peaky motor to drive everyday), has good aftermarket heads, single plane intake, 750DP, stout valve train (full roller rockers, studs, guidplates, goods springs, TI keepers, good valves), studded bottom end (2-bolt?), maybe a cast crank, but probably a forged one, good aftermarket rods or at least reworked stockers with good bolts, good machine work and assembly. That's not a cheap motor, nor would it get 15mpg and I'd bet that to really make it work you'd need 4.10's, maybe 3.73's.

If you are after low 13's and reasonable street manners the bigger motors will get you there easier and for the same, maybe less cash. If different is what you are after, then the 327 is hands down the winner. You have to decide what you want. Do you have a crank? Is it small journal or large journal? How heavy is the car you are putting it in? Look at the total package and go from there. I personally wouldn't build a 355 unless I had a crank lying around. If I had the 327 crank, then I'd build the 327, nostalgia is a good thing. If I had to buy the crank I'd do the 383.....just easier to make the power, that's all.

Look at the BB crowd, few people build 396/427's anymore even though there is something about a 427 that makes people go oohhh aahhhh. If you are starting from scratch guys don't build less then 500 cubes, or with a 454 block they go to a 468 or 489 or 496......cubes equal power

Look at the LS1 crowd, when the stocker goes bye, bye.....the next evolutionary step is either a stroker kit or the upgrade to a 408? Nobody downsizes to the 5.3 (327 approx.) and spins the wee of them...why? cubes=torque and thus more hp....

I am not trashing ya, just make sure you have clear goals of what you are after, then the decision will be easy. A nicely built 327 (375-400hp), 3.73 gears and a manual tranny with OD or an AOD would be a nice ride and probably get you low 13's in a 3400lb car and be easy to drive on a daily basis.....that's a guess

Good Luck
Chris

[chrisfrom nj]

i say go for it 327 are good motors good luck with the engine build

[r0nin89]

Yeah I'm 99% sure I am going to do the 327 punch it 30 and build it for 6000rpm's. I know that the 327 forged crank is somewhat cheap being its a stock replacment part. As for good heads I plan on sinking a good amount of my money into them which i was gonna do 327 or 355. I'm not even sure if the free block is going to be the one I build just because it probably sitting out in the guys driveway in ernesto ...

[unstable bob gable]

Nuttin' wrong w/ a good running 327. Especially if it is already paid for. :)

[r0nin89]

My goal is $2000 w/o heads.

[r0nin89]

Thinking I may add a remote turbo to this project... Just thinking out loud :D

[WildBillyT]

I may be the only one thinking this way, but if this will be a street driven car a single plane manifold and a 750 double pumper may make the engine a real dog down low.

[bad64chevelle]

I was thinking the same thing billy, I am running mine 99% on the street, I run a dual planewith a 650 dp and have found it to be a great combo for the street. Mine lacks low end power because I have a bad trans with a stock converter (not by choice). One thing about the 327 is they love to rev, and keep those RPMs!

[r0nin89]

What exactly do you mean? Turbo is a 3000rpm up range. I was thinking it would just enhance what the engine already wants to do. I have no doubts in my mind that its gonna be one of those cars thats not so quick off the line but when it starts going it takes off.

[1QWIKBIRD]

What exactly do you mean? Turbo is a 3000rpm up range. I was thinking it would just enhance what the engine already wants to do. I have no doubts in my mind that its gonna be one of those cars thats not so quick off the line but when it starts going it takes off.

Here's what you do......build an old school 327/350hp like the L-79 in the 66-67 Nova's, except get a more modern cam profile and modern heads and a tad less compression (10.0 to 1 maybe 10.5 to 1)....should be an easy 400hp on sunoco 93.....Run an RPM Air Gap intake, a 750DP or maybe a 650DP (as others have suggested), MSD Ign, Good headers 1-3/4 primaries, 3" collectors and a full 3" exhaust. Run the 4.10's out back with an overdrive tranny and hold on for the ride.....Done Deal........In the right car (no land barge impala's or monte carlos) that's got to be good for solid 12's with a good tune and suspension. Forget about the turbo thing.....When in doubt, keep it simple...

a master rebuild kit from Northern Auto is $470 (Federal mogul Seal power flattop pistons) with comp cam 2500-6500 hyd. bumpstick
a new forged LJ crank off ebay is $350
a set of new eagle rods off ebay is $330
SFI Balancer ATI $300
SFI flexplate $80? Flywheel $200?
ARP bolts for mains $100?
Moroso Pan/Pickup $200

$2000 for the shortblock is reasonable not including machine work and assuming you get the block for cheap/free....

Do the 327, its what you want and that's what matters.


Chris

[WildBillyT]

Here's what you do......build an old school 327/350hp like the L-79 in the 66-67 Nova's, except get a more modern cam profile and modern heads and a tad less compression (10.0 to 1 maybe 10.5 to 1)....should be an easy 400hp on sunoco 93.....Run an RPM Air Gap intake, a 750DP or maybe a 650DP (as others have suggested), MSD Ign, Good headers 1-3/4 primaries, 3" collectors and a full 3" exhaust. Run the 4.10's out back with an overdrive tranny and hold on for the ride.....Done Deal........In the right car (no land barge impala's or monte carlos) that's got to be good for solid 12's with a good tune and suspension. Forget about the turbo thing.....When in doubt, keep it simple...

a master rebuild kit from Northern Auto is $470 (Federal mogul Seal power flattop pistons) with comp cam 2500-6500 hyd. bumpstick
a new forged LJ crank off ebay is $350
a set of new eagle rods off ebay is $330
SFI Balancer ATI $300
SFI flexplate $80? Flywheel $200?
ARP bolts for mains $100?
Moroso Pan/Pickup $200

$2000 for the shortblock is reasonable not including machine work and assuming you get the block for cheap/free....

Do the 327, its what you want and that's what matters.


Chris


And there it is. The only thing I would do different is go with a solid lifter cam.

Using a single plane manifold with a big carb on a smaller displacement motor is not generally recommended for street use. It can cause bogging and chugging, and will be tough to tune. Not to mention you won't have a ton of torque so you can't afford to lose that much.

The Air Gap is a great manifold. That should work very well.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Tuned port 327 would be cool. You could even use stock ported components!!

[NJSPEEDER]

i love when i hear about people ripping on anything smaller than a 350. yes, there is some trade off of power when you go with a lower displacement, but it certainly isn't a 1:1 ratio either.

[BonzoHansen]

i love when i hear about people ripping on anything smaller than a 350. yes, there is some trade off of power when you go with a lower displacement, but it certainly isn't a 1:1 ratio either.
Guys with 302s don't lose any ground to 350 cars.

[BonzoHansen]

I may be the only one thinking this way, but if this will be a street driven car a single plane manifold and a 750 double pumper may make the engine a real dog down low.
I might guess a 750 is too large.

A nice set of affordable vortec heads might really make it hum.

Build it. If you don't like it, a solid running 327 is always marketableto a guy with a old car.

[r0nin89]

Thanks for the support everyone and especially for the build sheet Chris. Gonna be running 3.43's in the rear though because its gonna be a daily driver. And definatly opting for roller for the same reason. How do you think it will be on gas if I drive like Im 95? As far as the gears go what am I gonna loose as far as times with the higher ratio?

Hmm what heads should I put ontop of that build chris?

No stall converter on that setup btw?

[1QWIKBIRD]

Thanks for the support everyone and especially for the build sheet Chris. Gonna be running 3.43's in the rear though because its gonna be a daily driver. And definatly opting for roller for the same reason. How do you think it will be on gas if I drive like Im 95? As far as the gears go what am I gonna loose as far as times with the higher ratio?

Hmm what heads should I put ontop of that build chris?

No stall converter on that setup btw?

You need to decide if its gonna be auto or manual, that's gonna effect your cam selection and converter. If its auto, will it have OD? Lock up converter? When you say roller, do you mean roller cam? That's a pretty serious upgrade for a daily driven 12-13 second ride. Money that could probably be put to better use else where.

Heads is kinda tough, maybe someone else could chime in, but if you want the thing to spin to what 6500rpm?? you will need a head that can support that? Off the top of my head I'm thinking AFR 180's or 195's (68cc chamber, angle plug) or something similiar, decent port size, good mid range numbers that shouldn't kill you down low, especially with 3.42 gears (kinda on the weak side) and a pump gas friendly 68cc chamber. Zero deck the block, run a flattop piston (as small a valve relief as you can find/need to acheive desired Valve to pistion clearance) and a felpro 0.039 gasket and you should end up right at 10 to 1 for your compression.

Attached are the flow numbers for an AFR 180 and 195 street head. Notice these numbers are based on a bore size of 4.060 which is cheating a bit, because the larger bore unshrouds the vavle better and helps flow, but you will be at 4.030 so the numbers would be close. The 195 will have more room to grow in the future, but the 180 head might be the better choice for you current demands??? Either way both of these heads are light years ahead any "camel hump" or fuelie head from back in the day.

I'd rather see ya take the roller cam money and go with an overdrive tranny with more gear out back. Maybe a nicely built 700r4 with 3.73's and a converter to match the cam (25-2800??).....I doubt a hyd. roller would spin to 6500 and make power anyway without some really trick hardware, hyd. rollers are heavy.

Good luck, call the cam companies, the head manufactures and converter shops....they'll have the answers once you know EXACTLY what you want.

Chris

[NJSPEEDER]

Guys with 302s don't lose any ground to 350 cars.

3inch stroke = add gear for fun. 302's were know to be a bit weak off the line because they were cammed to come on at 5K+ rpm.
with the short stroke you could throw a large duration cam at them and just add gear until the motor came on. torque multiplication works jsut as well as actual horse power in the scenario :)

[Ian]

high revving motor + a ton of gear out back = :D

[r0nin89]

Well I am going to run this in a 3rd gen its a brand new freshly rebuilt 700r4 got like 3000miles on it. I dont wanna go anything steeper on gears than the 3.43's only because I will be driving this car everyday. As far as roller goes I was aiming for a roller cam and lifters because it saves gas. I didnt wanna upgrade the block to completly roller just the cam and lifters for a little less friction.


Price is a little steep for my budget... I'll keep em on the back burner but they are pretty steep after doing this all forged bottom.

[bad64chevelle]

high revving motor + a ton of gear out back = :D
Is that why you wanted to ride with me that day to cops and rodders? Just wait for the 4speed Ian...then its time for some fun!

[bad64chevelle]

Well I am going to run this in a 3rd gen its a brand new freshly rebuilt 700r4 got like 3000miles on it. I dont wanna go anything steeper on gears than the 3.43's only because I will be driving this car everyday. As far as roller goes I was aiming for a roller cam and lifters because it saves gas. I didnt wanna upgrade the block to completly roller just the cam and lifters for a little less friction.
Wheres a price for those heads?
Youre going to want to run a converter behing that motor, otherwise it will most likely be a dog...take it from experience...Mine runs like crap until about 3000 RPMs then takes off like a raped ape. Like I said before if you want other specs or want to check out how it runs let me know, I would be more than happy to show you before you get into the project. It may help your decision making on a few aspects.

[WildBillyT]

Well I am going to run this in a 3rd gen its a brand new freshly rebuilt 700r4 got like 3000miles on it. I dont wanna go anything steeper on gears than the 3.43's only because I will be driving this car everyday. As far as roller goes I was aiming for a roller cam and lifters because it saves gas. I didnt wanna upgrade the block to completly roller just the cam and lifters for a little less friction.


Price is a little steep for my budget... I'll keep em on the back burner but they are pretty steep after doing this all forged bottom.

If this is an original non roller block you are going to pay out your ass for a hydraulic roller and lifters. And if you are building to rev then the lifters are a bit heavy for you, as stated by 1QWIKBIRD.

[r0nin89]

Alright so a few things. No roller only because I keep reading/getting told it creates a problem at high rpms. I was thinking about running a 2500rpm converter on my trans just so it will pick up and go without heavy gears, sound good?

PS: Does flat tappet really strain mpg that much? I've had people I know tell me a roller engine gets much better gas mileage.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

sounds to me like there are too many chefs in the kitchen.. There are already conflicting opinions, guesses, and false statements.. You are going to be better off finding a person or shop that has experience with this engine and also some third gen knowledge to go along with it. Other wise you are going to go with this guys combo because its cheaper and this guys heads because he says you need them and in the end you are just going to have a pile of mismatched crap with 327 badges on it..

[JSPERFORMANCE]

and if that happens then yes... a stock 350 WILL beat you!!

[r0nin89]

Yeah which is why I ordered a book on 327 builds... I came here for opinions and suggestions. Thanks for the advice.

[1QWIKBIRD]

sounds to me like there are too many chefs in the kitchen.. There are already conflicting opinions, guesses, and false statements.. You are going to be better off finding a person or shop that has experience with this engine and also some third gen knowledge to go along with it. Other wise you are going to go with this guys combo because its cheaper and this guys heads because he says you need them and in the end you are just going to have a pile of mismatched crap with 327 badges on it..


best advice so far.......by far.....

chris

[vegaken]

I hope that you sort out that whole combination before spending any cash. There are a ton of variables left. What size tire are you going to run out back. I can tell you that if you buy an off the shelf converter it is not going to perform the way you think it should. The torque that motor is going to put out is not going to be enough to get the stall to were you think it should be. What parts do you have for that motor? If you don't have anything but the block build some cubes and lie to everyone and tell them it is a 327, no one is going to know but you and the guy building it for you. Figure out what you really want out of the car otherwise you will do nothing but chuck money at it and be unhappy. I understand about wanting to do stuff on the cheap but take your time and be happy with the end result, don't comprimise on the build up. And don't worry about the thing revving, guys out at Bamman's shop are building 412 inch motors and revving them 9000+. The revs will come with lighter stuff and you should not really notice the difference in the revs in a stock style bottom end with a 327 and 383 or 355. Besides most parts cost the same these days and more cubes equal free power for the price.
Just have some fun but take your time.
Ken

[r0nin89]

I havent gotten anything yet. Dont even have the block in my posession. As far as cubes go I'm not gonna lie and say my 355 is a 327. Everything is getting done the way I want to and thats building a 327. Its all going forged and that the only thing set in stone right now. Like the original post says dont try to convince me to go more cubes. Ford 302's kick 350's ass 5times daily so when you say cubes are free power its obviously not THAT important.

[NJSPEEDER]

how do you wanna use this engine?
i am bored and playing with DD2000 and some oether software i have. all i need to know is your budget and how far you wanna rev the thing and i can come up with some pballpark power figures. :)

[r0nin89]

From the looks of things I'm gonna be going 355 due to money issues with building the 327. Everything is just more expensives... I just have my fingers crossed its a large journal block so I can bore it drop a 350 crank and have a 355 w/o looking for another block...

[bad64chevelle]

before you do that could you find out what year the block is? Thanks!

[r0nin89]

Yeah looking for a numbers matching block?

[bad64chevelle]

no i just wanted to know what year it was and what it was out of if possible

[r0nin89]

Yeah I'm gonna look it up. BTW if its a small journal block what does it take price wise in machine work to make it large journal?

[amargari]

Here is an article from 2002 on a 327 buildup (408hp) :
http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=1961698029

If it is a small journal block, do not modify it. It would be cheaper to keep it a 327.

[r0nin89]

Yeah I am hoping it will be a LJ. If its a small joural I'll probably look for another block.

[MapleRed]

No problem w/ the 327. They're great engines and make good power. I'd love to have a 67 - 68 Camaro RS w/ a 327 and a 4 speed but damn, they are expensive.

[bad64chevelle]

they make great power and pull very hard to the upper RPMs. I burried the tach in my chevelle (stock 6200 RPM tach and it kept pulling) with NO problems.

[r0nin89]

No problem w/ the 327. They're great engines and make good power. I'd love to have a 67 - 68 Camaro RS w/ a 327 and a 4 speed but damn, they are expensive.


Yeah that wound up being the problem with that idea...