?? about Eibach drag launch kit

[98tadriver]

a few ??'s about the drag launch kit

how crappy does it make our cars handle around turns?

Has anyone purchased those springs? and if so, do you like them?

I have 8 way adjustable shocks and struts, so i figure if i set em on 8 (firm) it wont float too bad.

[NJSPEEDER]

your car will handle worse and launch like ****, avoid that crap like the plague.
the springs are seperate rates for each side, that is the worst thing in the world you can do to a street/strip car.
if you want to launch harder and keep your street manners look into some adjustable rear shocks, stock V6 rears, and the biggest sway bar you can find. ridse the shocks firm on the street to counteract and control the lower spring rate, softer when drag racing to promote weight transfer.
the sway bar will keep the car level on hard launches and help teh car rotate through the twisties.

[98tadriver]

thanks for the tips tim!! greatly appreciated. you just saved me some money!

i do have the adjustable shocks.. Ill get the rear V6 springs.and a bigger sway. but how about front springs??

[Rich189]

ive been reading quite a bit on this over ls1tech.... the consensus over there for what its worth is the kit sucks.... and another thing i was looking at is if you go much over a 21-22mm sway itll be to much bar for the back and your car will have a tendancy to oversteer.... im no suspension expert by any means but after talking to sam strano over there and a few other people that seems to be the general idea

[Batman]

You need to balance your sway bar and suspension set up, if you put a huge drag set up on the back you're car is going to oversteer big time. Personally I don't like using lower spring rates then the car is supposed to have if it is a driver. It just adds wear and tear to your shocks and can put you in a hairy situation in a panic stop or wet weather. Shocks/struts are made to dampen the spring, not support the weight of the car. Eventually with a soft spring and high shock pressure you could risk blowing out a shock which can cause a very nasty accident, especially without a good supporting spring to hold the car up. From the performance side I cut some 1.5XX 60's yanking the front wheels with slicks, skinnies and stock WS6 shocks struts and springs and just solid WS6 size swaybars. I don't think at your power level you will gain enough to warrant a drag race rear suspension. Do you really want your car to drive worse for .01 at the track? IF it were me I would get some nice slicks/drag radials and put air bags in the back of the car to keep it level. The bigger sway bar is a good idea but talk to the seller and make sure it won't upset your car as a driver before you buy a bar meant for straight line driving and if it will see if they have a complimenting front bar. Since you already have the adjustable shocks that should be plenty for your car until you hit higher power levels. Don't look at what that 9 second car has and think because he has it it will work the same for you, if you know what I mean.

[mtg6486]

which companys make a good sway bar set i was thinking of hotchkis unless you guys suggest another one

[WildBillyT]

Global West:

http://www.globalwest.net/camaro93.htm

[Batman]

Spohn makes a nice set also

[98tadriver]

thank you for all of your help guys i appreciate it!

[ins0mnia24]

I upgraded my suspension with 1LE 32mm Front and 21 mm Rear sway bars i got them for $200 this past summer.
Along with 98-02 SS/WS.6 Basically 1LE Front and rear springs because i liked how the SS & WS.6's sat a little lower to the ground it ended up being about a 1/2 inch lower than my stock Z28 height and the spring rates are different
Higher rate Front 360 lbs/in, Variable Rate Rear springs 130-180 lbs/in.
For a 11's Daily driver i couldnt be happier on and off the track.
Probably be alot better once i get rid of the stock shocks.

[NJSPEEDER]

the best rear sway around is still teh stock thirdgen ws6 bar. it is a 24mm hollow piece that will bolt right into any 82-02 car. great for handling and drag launches and much lighter than most of the aftermarket pieces.

[BMF]

My 1.48 60ft launch picture (http://www.davemilcarek.com/111906/pages/11-19%207D%20018.htm)

[Ian]

The shocks arent doing anything to support the weight of the car, unless they're bottomed out or on the bump stops.

A "Stiff rate" spring is popular for those that are looking for handling ability, but i believe suspension tuning in nascar revolves around using the lightest possible spring for the job.

The Job of the shock is to control the action of the spring! You need shocks up to the task.

My camaro with its 1960's front end technology has NO PROBLEM handling on the street, with no sway bar and moroso springs....why? becuase i have Afco front shocks with the compression turned up to control the bounce on the landing from the launch, what this also does it prevent the car from diving when driving around.

Most light springs are accompanied by cheapo "drag shocks" and they're the real problem behind the handling issues.

My 1.48 60ft launch picture (http://www.davemilcarek.com/111906/pages/11-19%207D%20018.htm)

I just had to get this out. It's true nascar uses the softest spring possible. Hell, every form of motorsports basically tries to run the softest spring they can. the stiffer the spring, the rougher the ride and the more parts you're gonna break.

but its also important to know that the shocks nascar tunes with costs over $1,000 each! they are definitely not street items.

I do agree that shocks are important and you get what you pay for. But there are some people, like jake for example, who put a lot of miles on their car just driving it around on the street. These types of people would wear their shocks out a lot faster, especially if they were running a soft spring/ tight shock combo all the time. It doesnt make as much sense for them to buy the top of the line shock unless its for a dedicated track car.

[BMF]

...

[NJSPEEDER]

it si about compromise dude. the car is driven on the street everyday and he is looking for an improvement in the launch abilities of it.
under street conditions too soft a spring will cause the weight of a heavy factory equiped car to bounce more. those extra cycles and the resulting extra heat will reduce the life span of the shock. a very soft spring also increases the odds of getting all the way to the bottom end of the travel on a shock, which we all know is very bad if you want them to keep working.

[BMF]

...

[NJSPEEDER]

relying on the bump stops to keep the suspension under control is never a good plan. an aburpt stop to the suspension movement can easily bounce the tires or cause a skid.
a lower rate, taller spring is a good thing to look at, jsut be careful how the coil is wound. a lot of the longer springs that are available use a thinner metal with more rounds in it to create teh desired height. this can lead to spring bind which woudl have the same effect as hitting the bump stops.

[BMF]

...

[NJSPEEDER]

i have looked at the use of bumps stops as a part of a suspension system before, including reading what herb adams put in his books. fact is that a bump stop is a very inconsistant way to control suspension movement. the idea behind using them was valid 25 years ago when shock technology wasn't there, but things have advanced a bit since then.
i have had the pleasure of bottoming out on bump stops of various compounds and even breaking shocks by bottoming them out. same result both ways, instant loss of grip.
btw, i am stating what i know and have seen work before in cars, nothing to do with your personal view of the situation.

[BMF]

figure it out on your own

[NJSPEEDER]

the inconsistancy in a bump stop starts the first time you hit it. it starts to distort, once distorted it doesn't ever react the same way again. i atuocrossed my old car for years and went through many sets of bump stops in different configurations, none of them made for a pleasant result. the extra inch or two of travel did seem to help the suspension a bit as i only bottomed out shocks a few times and each time it was under a more extreme circumstance than what caused the contact and resulting loss of grip with the bump stops in place.

the use of bump stops as a primary control on suspension is an old idea, thus my 25 year old technology comment. modern shock design with split and variable velocity valvings are a much better route to rely upon than slamming into a piece of rubber.

a stock V6 spring set plus the adjustable shocks he already has is a perfectly reasonable solution to the needs described. if you prefer going to an extremely soft spring and skipping the suspension off the bump stops, good for you.

[BMF]

Quality information is obviously not appreciated.

[Ian]

while both you and tim both brought up very good points and served up a lot of valuable information, in the end the car in question is NOT a drag car.

With that out of the way, the car should not be set up for just drag racing. Driving a pure drag car on the street is not very safe. They simply wanted to know a cheap, easy way to make their car hook a little better. they're not out to set any records or break the bank buying top shelf shocks.

Brian, I already know that you're gonna think I'm singling you out and trying to disprove everything that you've said. This is not the case. Obviously you're setup works and you know your way around a race car. However, if the car in question is gonna see a lot of street use, they're better off going with parts that will work well on the street.

[Batman]

Where's my soapbox....ahhh there it is! :soapbox:
Keep in mind, STREET CAR that sees track duty not TRACK CAR that sees the street. All of us are right and all of us are wrong. I think the point is he is looking for better launch traction and still be able to drive the car safely and without too much discomfort on the street. Using bump stops to control suspension travel over the road is a terrible idea. They will start to deflect and on bumpy roads and wear out in a hurry. Not to mention they will knock your teeth out ride wise and make all kinds of noise. Also in respone to BMF I did word that wrong. If there is a spring in there the shocks don't support the weight of the car per say, that is my mistake, but they will be suffering more weight transfer then with the correct springs because the spring isn't doing the work it is supposed to. That is when you can run into porposing, shock deflection, shock bottom and top out and all kinds of other problems you wouldn't face on a drag launch. There is no reason to risk bad weight transfer on the road and the safety hazards it causes for a tenth on you 60 foot time. THAT is why I suggested better tires or a dedicated set of track tires. I may not be able to cut a 1.3 go foot time in my car but I am still hitting 1.5's and don't have to panic every time I hit a bump going around a corner. :soapbox:

[Batman]

BTW :popcorn:

[BMF]

first off porposing is rocking back and forth, a car setup incorrect will do that, Shock deflection can be seen on the return to earth (FROM THE WHEELIE!), Bottom out and top out also.

[Batman]

Not saying it doesn't, but it doesn't happen 100 times an hour like driving over the road, unless you are at a really crappy track with pot holes, washboards and other imperfections. I'm not saying you CAN'T make it work with stiff shocks so why don't YOU read what WE are trying to say and not interpret it in a drag race application but in terms of a street car. You are going to create more heat and shock wear with high pressures to compensate for a softer spring. The shock is going to work harder to keep those issues from happening then it would with a regular spring rate and will cause the shock to wear out faster then a car with a street style suspension. I'm not trying to tell you it can't be done, I'm saying it isn't a cost effective, reliable way to set-up a daily driver for people on a budget who race 5 times a year. So don't sit there and get nasty with us because we don't like your idea, obviously you have a great set-up under your car that you like but the rest of us aren't neanderthals, there are other people here with alot of experience in setting up suuspensions and probably as much or more trial and error time as you so I for one, woulkd appreciate it if you would knock off the downtalking because we don't agree with you. If you want to discuss things discuss them, but there is no need to be all pissed off and defensive about. I'm not dismissing any of your ideas but just offering up MY opinion from MY research and MY experience and if anything you are dismissing the rest of us. Tim has valid points, I have valid points, Ian does and so do you. That is the whole point of putting up questions here is to get as much info from people who have had the experience and while I may not have "disected how a bump stops works" and may not know everything there is to know about suspension I certainly know the ins and outs for setting up an LS1 car for street/strip duty because I've been doing it for years and it is a little different then your lightweight 1st Gen race car. Noone is trying to undermine what you have accomplished or know but don't talk to me (or anyone else) like we are incompetent.


You dont suppose you might see " That is when you can run into porposing, shock deflection, shock bottom and top out" On a drag launch???

I got news for ya, first off porposing is rocking back and forth, a car setup incorrect will do that, Shock deflection can be seen on the return to earth, Bottom out and top out also.

I don't need the word porpoise defined for me, And I am not talking, for the last time, about a drag launch. I am talking when he hits a bump in the rain and the weight comes off his front tires and crashes him into a tree. I also don't think unless he straps his car to a Saturn 5 rocket he will have to worry too much about his "Return to Earth" just yet, maybe after a few more mods.

[Batman]

the best rear sway around is still teh stock thirdgen ws6 bar.

I forgot about those Tim, those are nice bars, cheap,and easy to live with also. Just be careful if you buy them that they haven't been worn down by lack of bushing replacement.

[BMF]

TRue to the form a message board, any good information shared is rarely appreciated and oftened argued with by those with much less knowledge in the area.

I'm done arguing, i've been there and done that with not only my own ride, but i had the experience of working with one of the only teams in stock eliminator racing, campaining 3 late model F-bodies on a stock legal suspension, who did nothing but set national records. I didnt specifically set up those cars (that was another guys work), however i did spend quite a bit of time adjusting weight bias and shock settings in the cars.

A suspension is a suspension, they can be related from one to another, especially when talking about street/strip rear wheel drive, heavy cars.

My personal car, which i've done extensive testing with, including $2500 in different sets of shocks, 4 sets of coil springs, 3 sets of leaf springs, and 3 types of bushings, and 2 styles of rear suspension traction systems

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/blaunch.jpg

Adjusted the ballast, and front shocks numerous times, as we changed drivers and classes multiple times, along with going over the suspension setup with the guy who set it up.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/P4164802.jpg

Solved the wild bounce problem in this car, along with adjusting the wheelie to the current height. It now does 3' wheelies and lands with 1 solo, even bounce, and settles.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stories/photos_go_here_06/0624-00283.JPG

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/Chevellestockergif.gif

I designed all aspects and built all aspects of this frame from a completely clean sheet of paper.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/P1011419.jpg

Built this car from the ground up, i'm currently in the sheetmetal fab stage of it.

http://www.iwantthatmusclecar.com/images/78mal40.jpg

Your right....i dont know ANYTHING about suspensions ;)

[Ian]

Your right....i dont know ANYTHING about suspensions ;)

:scratch:

do you have a reading comprehension problem? never once did anyone say you didnt know what you were talking about. never once did we discredit you of your accomplishments. We only stated that for this persons application, it would be wise to stay away from such a drastic setup.

[Batman]

Let's see...race car, race car, race car, race car......No one is questioning you can build an awesome race suspension and have alot of knowledge, we just don't agree it is applicable in this case. You gave alot of very good information on race suspensions and it IS appreciated to have input like that. But setting up a 60/70's car for drag racing isn't the same as setting up a modern street strip car. The basic principles are the same yes but there are alot of other considerations you need for a daily driver then wheels up drag racing action. That's all we are trying to say. Don't be so quick to Dismiss US because all I did at our shop is work on modern day F-bodies. I took a 3800# car into the 11's (1.53 was my best 60 foot BTW, although my best run cam with a 1.6 something), and I am not the best shifter in the world either, with only 367RWH so maybe I know a little something about putting power to the ground in a 4th Gen F-body.

[NJSPEEDER]

bmf, extremely childish way to try to respond. editing out the useful information in your other posts, putting up a bunch of pics of race cars and claiming that no one other than you could possibly know anything, then saying you are leaving. that is an absolutely pathetic way to try to make or defend a point.

[BMF]

Everyones telling me i'm wrong, why keep in the info up there?

[bad64chevelle]

:popcorn:

:horse: So, Ron have you decided what you want to do yet?

[NJSPEEDER]

Everyones telling me i'm wrong, why keep in the info up there?

information is always useful, even if the application is in question. i can't tell you the number of times i have gone back and reread information in threads, even if it was information that was slightly off topic. hell, that is how we found the 4spd for jon's chevelle.
if you have tech information to share, do it. if not everyone agrees or sees your view of the application in question, so what. no one is persoanlly attacking you, the work you do, or your car.

[NJSPEEDER]

hey gang, lets get everyone back on topic and help ron out. there is no need to drag personal information and outside situations into this.

ron, my suggestion stands at getting V6 springs. teh rate is compliant enough to help you launch and have your adjustable shocks be a good control of movement, and will still be firm enough to give you pretty good handling and keep the car safe under daily road conditions.

[Mike]

ooops :)

[98tadriver]

i adjusted my rear shocks to 4 instead of 8 so this way it wont bounce like it did in my latest atco videos. and its hooking 10x better on the street after that adjustment.

right now, my suspension is weird, its a 3 link, like a really short ladder bar setup. (figured i'd try it out) i dont rely on weight transfer- However, when the time comes to change it back to a normal person, torque arm suspension.
After some thought, and seeing that i cant have the best of both worlds, im gonna ditch the eibach idea and go with the V6 spring idea. My adjustable shocks and struts are working pretty darn good. between my 8way adjustables, and the V6 springs, it should be good enough for daily driving and track time.

if i can get my transmission in my car before the end of the season, i think i will cut 1.7 60's with my weird suspension and DR's. i adjusted my shocks and my 4 degrees of knock retard is gone.

To give you an idea on why i think i can cut 1.7's- i cut a 1.83 with this suspension, on street tires. now i have my intake and drag radials.

[98tadriver]

Lock the thread before it gets even uglier!!!!

[IROCdan330]

11s :w00t:

[Tru2Chevy]

If you could cut a 1.83 before, you should have no problem getting low 1.7s and *maybe* 1.6s out of the car now (as long as you can get decent track conditions).

- Justin