305 TPI, looking to go 350

[band77one]

First off, DO NOT post with opinions, im not looking for opinions im looking for help.

i have a crap 305 TPI motor in my iroc, GM has no 350 replacements for an injection motor and apparently Jasper doesnt either, but they wanna build me a 300 HP motor for 3600. haha what a joke. i was wondering if anyone can tell me where i stand on putting in a 350 with this car while staying fuel injected but STILL being able to pass inspection, and im looking for a 350+hp motor.

[JerzLT1]

jegs for the motor summit for the injection? why do you want to stay fuel injected? just out of curiosity?

[band77one]

i have to pass emissions

[Tru2Chevy]

I would suggest something like this: GM Performance Parts 350ci / 290hp Engine (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/category_10001_10002_26025_-1_10763), but I would assume your TPI setup is for centerbolt heads....and that wouldn't work with the heads on this motor without drilling out your lower intake a bit.

This should go through inspection with no issues though, regardless of what it says about pollution controlled vehicles.

- Justin

[Fast92RS]

Check out TPIparts.net under tech articles. There is an article on 305 to 350 TPI. That article should answer most of your TPI fuel injuection realted questions. I am in the process of doing the same thing. I have a 92 with a 305 TPI, I will be putting in a 350 ZZ4 and staying with TPI. Feel free to email me anytime.

[NJSPEEDER]

realistically you can put in any mild 350 with TPI on it and pass emissions as long as you retain all the emissions equipment and have a properly tuned chip in it.
you do not need to shop specifically for an engine that says it is for fuel injection.
if you are looking to purchase a crate motor my suggestion would be to check out www.SDPC2000.com scoggins-dickey has competitive prices and their tech line is usually pretty helpful.
jsut avoid the edelbrock crate motors, they are good pieces, but a large portion of the price is merely to pay for the name on the valve covers. GMPP are a more economical choice and most come with a 3yr/36k warranty

[Batman]

You can buy a 350 TBI truck engine from Pace and just swap on the TPI fuel injection. Throw in a cam and you may be able to hit 350.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Stay away from crate engines all together.. You can have an engine custom built for your needs with better parts for the same investment of cash. That is unless you like crap parts and pieces made in mexico or china... Just ask IROCDAN330 hes is a great example.. I have seen way too many crate engines go to **** prematurely and when I took them apart I found junk parts and elementary mistakes on many occaisions..

[johnjzjz]

Stay away from crate engines all together.. You can have an engine custom built for your needs with better parts for the same investment of cash. That is unless you like crap parts and pieces made in mexico or china... Just ask IROCDAN330 hes is a great example.. I have seen way too many crate engines go to **** prematurely and when I took them apart I found junk parts and elementary mistakes on many occaisions..

not to mention the GM motor group has no problem with a returned motor from their pre install dept that failed testing making it your crate -- bean counters are involved with all of it JS is correct -- of the ones we have seen only a small percentage have actually worked for any real length of time -- with out some strange issue involving removing it and getting into a major inspection to fix it -- but i do know some guys will swear buy them -- not me --jz

[WildBillyT]

not to mention the GM motor group has no problem with a returned motor from their pre install dept that failed testing making it your crate -- bean counters are involved with all of it JS is correct -- of the ones we have seen only a small percentage have actually worked for any real length of time -- with out some strange issue involving removing it and getting into a major inspection to fix it -- but i do know some guys will swear buy them -- not me --jz

To both of you guys- I am genuinely curious.

Have you ever heard of anyone actually collecting on the GM Crate warranty? How does it work? I read the paperwork a while back and remember being surprised at how it was written. It seemed to imply that it did NOT work the way most people think it does... but that was a while ago.

[Ian]

I think I remember melissa tried to get her ZZ4 warrantied, but they wouldnt. maybe I'm mistaken but I thought I heard something like that.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Any time you are involved in high performance and racing you arent going to have a warranty.. There is always the loophole of "abuse" and most companys will hide behind it as much as they can.. Even if you were to have one warrantied it is for parts only so if it ****s out a head gasket you get a gasket not the $800 to reimburse you for the bill.. The way I see it since you arent going to get a warraniy with it anyways you might as well have the best you can afford..

[johnjzjz]

To both of you guys- I am genuinely curious.

Have you ever heard of anyone actually collecting on the GM Crate warranty? How does it work? I read the paperwork a while back and remember being surprised at how it was written. It seemed to imply that it did NOT work the way most people think it does... but that was a while ago.



i have a guy i grew up with and family between them they own 10 GM dealer ships -- if a warr could be had a would not posted what i wrote -- my 03 D-Max is at Chevy 3 weeks right now under Warr for injectors, and had to fight the service dept to even check it -- its all the same stuff -- all the auto company's have bought into the CHINA crap -- cheap slave labor built -- remember this to be the only truth ( U GET WHAT U PAY FOR ) sometimes it seams THO ---- in my shop this Christmas we have received 700 dollars Worth of gift cards from customers so far as Christmas presents --- its really nice to know the guys & gals we do work for appreciate what we provide for them -- most have been customers as well as now friends and some 25 years --- seen it all been their done that -- comes to mind --- i just love what i do and it reflects on the product we as a shop provide -- the crate motor deal is junk ( JUNK ) that for the most part if it works SWELL -- but their is no fixing it like the pre 80s stuff --- jz

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Yeah remember the GM "target" engines?? :lol:

[johnjzjz]

hahahahahahhahahahahah put one in a 60s car back maybe 1978 / 79 and the mirrors fell off the car a month later from the vibrations the crank was so bad we through the whole thing in the dumpster --- 1200 bucks i think hahahahhahaah valve covers to pan no manifolds --- jz

[HardcoreZ28]

Going from a 305 to a 350 TPI is no problem with emissions as long as all of your sensors and pollution devices are still in tact. I am running a 383 in my original 305 car with extensive modifications and the car runs cleaner than the day it was new.
I understand everyones argument about crate motors but I'd had good luck so far with my GM ones. If you want an easy way to make 350-400 horsepower I say get the GM ZZ383 Long block, a Holley Stealth Ram setup, and a custom PROM. Swap all of your sensors and accessories over to it and that's about all there is to that. You should have no problem passing emissions and the car will be a great street performer.
Any other questions feel free to PM me....I did my swap about 5 years ago but still remember most of the info. I believe the only things you have to change between the two motors are the knock sensor and the knock sensor module. Oh and the injectors of course....need to flow enough fuel for your power level.

[The Fixer]

Paul, did you notice any difference going to the 350 knock module (that's the EST module, right)? I have also done the 305/350 TPI conversion. So far, mine has behaved very nicely with just swapping in the 350 chip and knock sensor in the block, and putting in the LT1 22lb injectors.

[IROCdan330]

Josh is correct in his statement.

Crate engines are not the way to go. My first one had less than 10k on it when it started to consume oil in a very bad way. If I were you, I would talk to him about building you a similar engine with better internals. For the money spent on a crate engine, you could have the same thing built for half the cost.

And with regard to warranty...it took me damn near 1.5 years just to get my second engine. And it was a parts only warranty which blew, and I'm glad scoggin-dickey could help me out with it (in reality they shouldnt have but they f-ed up too). 1 year warranty on the first one, 90 day on the second one.

If you do get setup with a decent engine builder (JS Performance for one is great to work with), I might be able to help you out as far as a chip goes. My car just spanked emissions.

[NJSPEEDER]

i have heard about a few people using the GM and other crate motor warranties though. it is like any other warranty, they make you jump through hoops because the first thing they are gonna assume is that it was abused.

[HardcoreZ28]

Paul, did you notice any difference going to the 350 knock module (that's the EST module, right)? I have also done the 305/350 TPI conversion. So far, mine has behaved very nicely with just swapping in the 350 chip and knock sensor in the block, and putting in the LT1 22lb injectors.

I actually put it in with the new engine so I can't tell you if there's any difference. I just heard it was necessary so I did it.

[The Fixer]

I actually put it in with the new engine so I can't tell you if there's any difference. I just heard it was necessary so I did it.

Ah, gotcha. I need to get the Monte on the dyno now and see what this thing is capable of. It sure is a lot of fun on the road!

[Fast92RS]

It seems everyone knows a person who had a crate motor go bad, But what about the 100's or even 1000's of people that buy them. Its just like any other product. One person will have a problem and thinks it sh*** and the next person will never have a problem and thinks its the best thing ever.

[HardcoreZ28]

It seems everyone knows a person who had a crate motor go bad, But what about the 100's or even 1000's of people that buy them. Its just like any other product. One person will have a problem and thinks it sh*** and the next person will never have a problem and thinks its the best thing ever.

True. I've never had a problem with my GM crate motors or transmissions. I'm sure others have, but it's one of the largest companies in the world...they aren't going to put out complete junk.

[johnjzjz]

If GM had done the right thing when they owned the crate buzz -- owned it -- today you would not have 30 other crate choices at the least --- BEAN counters killed it for GM in quality -- blocks are Mexico ( balsa wood ) cranks rods cam lifers ( Bangladesh) rockers pusrods springs ( Guadeloupe ) bolts covers ( The Congo ) HELLO HELLO -- GARBAGE ---at least the edelbrock stuff i have seen at the trade shows ( PRI ) were done real nice and good parts for the most part -- low on power compared to most but they last -- and most thats all they are looking for -- shure you will have a 9 to 13 percent loss ratio and thats probly what we are talking about -- but on my end seeing lots of resto rods and muscle cars with all kinds of combos i will see a much higher ratio of failier --than a one time guy put it in and drove it himself --sorry if i made it sound as if they were all junk BUT i have seen a lot of junk from crate motor program over 30 years -- jz

[JSPERFORMANCE]

but it's one of the largest companies in the world...they aren't going to put out complete junk.

sure about that? this is the company that put a rear end made out of glass in a sports car behind a 400 hp engine...

[JSPERFORMANCE]

I have pulled apart GM crate 502's with exactly a year's run time on them.. Wiped out cams, rods installed backwards, crazy valve spring shims.
Edelbrock engines arent much better, I saw the "show" engines amazingly, they dont look much like the one you would receive in the crate....go figure
Another example, Shaifroff, 434 for I think $6000 sounds like a great deal right... Maybe for a street rod, this is not a race engine as you would expect from Scott. Point is that they attract you with a low price and then to deliver they will use the cheapest parts and labor they can find.. Sounds familiar? where have I heard of this before.. oh yeah JASPER!! Stay away from general package deals all together, you will ALWAYS be more satisfied when you have something custom tailored to your needs rather than when you buy "off the rack".

[BonzoHansen]

I've heard a couple of stories on problems with 572s. But I have heards lots of good comments on crates in general too. You get what you pay for, I suppose.

[band77one]

ok so pretty much, when i get a 350, all i have to do is put the TPI on there, then change the knock sensor and the computer chip and thats it ?

[IROCdan330]

ok so pretty much, when i get a 350, all i have to do is put the TPI on there, then change the knock sensor and the computer chip and thats it ?

well...no...technically, you can put your TPI setup from a 305 on there and have it run like that. run to its fullest potential is a different story.

in all reality you need the right size injectors, and a decent chip...and youll be happy. yes the 305 and 350 knock sensors and ESCs have different part numbers...but when you get into a modded engine there is almost no difference...

[BonzoHansen]

If you aren't changing the electronics (ecm, harness, etc.) why would you need to change the knock sensor? I would think injectors, tune & probably fuel pressure.

[The Fixer]

If you aren't changing the electronics (ecm, harness, etc.) why would you need to change the knock sensor? I would think injectors, tune & probably fuel pressure.

I think the knock sensor should be changed, only because the 305 and 350 blocks probably resonate at different frequencies - that .25" on each cylinder hole is a lot. Not sure if that would give false knock readings, or not. But, it's a cheap part compared to the EST module.

[V]

when i did my conversion, 305-350 parts, i was told a 350 knock sensor is needed, different part numbers as well. I didnt need to do a ESC since i went speed density. I just installed the knock sensor, custom chip, and LT1 injectors.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

but when you factor in different piston materials and over boreand higher compression either knock sensor becomes just as innacurate as the other.. Stock for stock though you would be correct.

[Batman]

I know we did the 305-350 swap in my fathers car and if you go with a stock style 350 you NEED the 350 knock sensor to make it run correctly. Like said above though, if you go custom both will be f'ed up.

[johnjzjz]

I have pulled apart GM crate 502's with exactly a year's run time on them.. Wiped out cams, rods installed backwards, crazy valve spring shims.
Edelbrock engines arent much better, I saw the "show" engines amazingly, they dont look much like the one you would receive in the crate....go figure
Another example, Shaifroff, 434 for I think $6000 sounds like a great deal right... Maybe for a street rod, this is not a race engine as you would expect from Scott. Point is that they attract you with a low price and then to deliver they will use the cheapest parts and labor they can find.. Sounds familiar? where have I heard of this before.. oh yeah JASPER!! Stay away from general package deals all together, you will ALWAYS be more satisfied when you have something custom tailored to your needs rather than when you buy "off the rack".


Edelbrock engines arent much better, I saw the "show" engines amazingly, they dont look much like the one you would receive in the crate....go figure

I am going to call VIC today -- i have on a number of occations played golf with that group in Fla -- he as i am talking to you will be pissed that is being said about his stuff -- if their has been some funny buzz going on in his assembly dept or he has caught it he will tell me -- to talk to the man for an afternoon all about nothing and everything you get a feel -- this is not him --yet i have not seen any of his motors come in my shop for re do but i am one small guy with a little shop in no place jersey ---- SO??????? -- will let you know -- jz

[JSPERFORMANCE]

I have heard the Vic is a real stand up guy.. Great products but when you add the human element i guess thats when problems arise.

[BonzoHansen]

I think the knock sensor should be changed, only because the 305 and 350 blocks probably resonate at different frequencies - that .25" on each cylinder hole is a lot. Not sure if that would give false knock readings, or not. But, it's a cheap part compared to the EST module.

Interesting. I wonder if that is why mine seemed sensitive when I went to a350 in my 82. I just figured it was the compression.

[johnjzjz]

I have heard the Vic is a real stand up guy.. Great products but when you add the human element i guess thats when problems arise.

Hey for a time one of the crews were lets say not real americans and were bringing lunch pails to work -- no one thought anything about till one broke open and almost broke the guys foot -- fillled with swapout stuff -- been fixed he said he sent at least a dozen complete new ones to people and payed labor to swap them when it was brought to his attension -- He said its a while ago and was embarrased when it happened -- jz

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Yet another reason to have a engine custom built... personal accountability.

[WayFast84]

js.

How much does it usually cost for a motor with out heads, but has pulleys, to install pistons?

[JSPERFORMANCE]

wayfast, there is no set cost to install pistons. there is machine work that needs to be done, balancing, hardware etc. Every engine is a little different in the amount of damage that is done, wear, previous hacking, etc... There is no way to give you a quote until the engine has been dissasembled, cleaned, checked for cracks, and measured..