Getting my final plan together.

[WayFast84]

First off, i would just like to say, if you have no technical advice plz stay out of this thread. Im looking for advice from people who know their crap, Jon, JZJZ,bitchin camaro,tim,justin,jr etc.

second.

My goal for the car, Street legal, can pass emisions, run on pump gas. Stock style suspension,stock sized tire. I would like to go as far into the 11's on motor as I can, with out needing a cage, and then when im ready for it I would like to hit 10.999 on nitrous with more safety things..

I would like to use the 400 sbc i allready have. and im on a tight budget.

I have to return my cylnder heads to summit, so If I need to I can return all of my things to get this right.

heads. Since im on a budget this is going to break or make this thing. what is the best head for 11's for the buck, double hump ,vortec, bowtie phase XX heads?

I thats all I can ask for now, and then once we get what heads will best fit my application we can move onto intake etc..

thank you alot, its greatly appreciated.

Matt

[j0n]

After doing my research for my potential project I would say that a carbed lt1 would be the way to go. you can pick up a complete longblock for 2-300 dollars, freshen up the bottom end for another couple hundred(bearings/rings), and spring for either an AI or LE ported head/cam setup(1500-2000 for 400+rwhp), carbed intake manifold for another hundred and change, carburetor, distributor etc and have a VERY strong AND STREETABLE runner for relatively cheap. IMO it's going to take ALOT of high-dollar parts to get a streetable gen1 engine into that sort of power range

[NJSPEEDER]

to get 11's out of your car with the 400 motor i would suggest jsut looking for some good stock castings. on displacement alone the engine will make good power to get the car rolling and the rest of the job can be done with some basic chassis prep.
look around for a set of 882 castings. they are a big valve, big chamber head that will keep your compression pump gas friendly and still flow plenty to get teh job done.
look into a 274 or 284 extreme energy cam kit and a performer rpm/torker2/holley street dominator intake. drop a 750holley on top and you will have a combo that makes nice power, has a broad power band, a cool sounding idle, and certainly have enough to lay the smack down on any jackass ricer from school that gets bold.

just rememebr, most of an ET is in the chassis prep. for a goal like 11's on a street motor you need to think more about chassis and gearing than building a monster engine.

[BonzoHansen]

What heads are you returning, the vortecs? Why not just use those, you already have them? Maybe I missed something. Seems like those heads are pretty good.

Tim is on the $$ with chassis. Those cars flex like wet cardboard. At least you have a hard top (IIRC).

[Fast92RS]

I Agree you can build a 350 as well to get in the 11's but your gonna have to get your chassis set up to hook up to get you there. Which means gearing, SFC, etc. I rebuilt my entire suspension with Spohn and UMI parts and I can get my to hook up pretty well but I will see how well it does when I put my new engine in.

[NJSPEEDER]

for chassis i would look into some SFC's, a good torque arm, some boxed stock control arms, V6 springs all around, lakewood shocks and struts, and some 4.10 gears.
with a proper stall in the car and a smal drag radial that should be plenty to get the low 1.7 to mid 1.6ish short times you need to get the job done.
no need for a bunch of big dollar parts, jsut keep it simple and get it done. 8)

[BonzoHansen]

Im returning vortecs because I payed to much money just for an updated/stronger casting, and a .520 spring..

882 head, how often are those to come by? how much they run?

so subframe connectors, tq arm, LCA's drag radials are good?I have a set, but they won't be available probably until next fall. :lol:

How much did you pay, and was that complete (springs, valves, etc)?

I'm just wondering how much a used set of heads will run you, plus machine work, plus new parts, etc.

[WayFast84]

I have a set, but they won't be available probably until next fall. :lol:

How much did you pay, and was that complete (springs, valves, etc)?

I'm just wondering how much a used set of heads will run you, plus machine work, plus new parts, etc.

$649 for both...ohh and theese heads flow like crap compaired to the gm ones, another major reason..

Im tempted to just put my motor in, get her runing and with the mmoney i saved get a t56.

Id be happy with a 12.5 second car, if it could handle real good. so basically I want a fun car..:cry:

hows umi?

[Mike]

umi = excelent

[bad64chevelle]

I have a set of camel hump heads off my 327, but dont know how far that would help you. I would agree to set the motor up to run decently, and make sufficient power, but worry more about a good trans, rear, and suspension setup.

[Ian]

I have a set of camel hump heads off my 327, but dont know how far that would help you. I would agree to set the motor up to run decently, and make sufficient power, but worry more about a good trans, rear, and suspension setup.

your camel hump heads probably dont have accessory holes drilled in them.

FWIW, I would rather run vortecs than camel hump heads. there is a reason they dont make 'em like they used to :wink:

[Batman]

If you don't mind me asking how much did you pay for the vortec's? Take a look at Pace Performance for the best deals on Vortec's I have seen, and they come machined with steam holes. Tim is right that the 882's would be an excellent match up but beware of machine work. It can run up the cost a ton AND screw up your compression ratio so if you go with used heads don't buy pistons until they are machined and ready to go. The biggest thing for ET is going to be your suspension, HP is what gets you high MPH but ET is almost entirely in the first 60Ft of the track. Ordinarily I would say stay away from adjustable partsand keep it simple but with an 84 the rear is probably going to need some squaring up so get the adjustable panhard bar and LCA's. If you are on a tight budget I would skip the adjustable torque arm, it is an awesome tool but will probably only net you a few hundreths on a mostly street car and costs double then a standard tranny MT non-adjustable. Having had 4 different torque arms I can tell you for a street strip car I love my non-adjustable tranny MT arm and I can still cut 1.6XX's at the track. Just my opinion. Before you buy SFC's decide if you are going to get a roll bar/cage. (FYI you need a bar at 11.99 and a cage at 9.99). If you are putting in a roll bar I wouldn't bother with SFC's. If the bar is installed correctly it will do far more then SFC's and it will just be 20-30 less pounds on the car. If you don't know if you are doing abar then go ahead and get them. And my biggest piece of advice is to not get frustrated when you do start racing. VERY rarely does these things fall into place onthe first try. Once you get a good set-up under your car don't make any big changes and just keep practicing. When iwas gunning for 11's I had a set-up that was running high 12's with good MPH and I knocked off .7 just from practicing and not changing anything. Working on the driver/car relationship is going to be the biggest speed mod you can do and it doesn't cost anything.

[WayFast84]

edit $649 for vortecs, but I cant afford a carb,stall,or tc lock up..I need used vortecs but it just seems no ones selling them right now

do 882's have any special name? what years did they come from, how much they run?

ok i think Im gonna go with all umi suspension parts, one person told me they are good, no negatives, and they are the cheapest LCA's,tq arm.

If you where in my posisition with a rebuilt 700r4, that is probably going to blow up with the power of my engine, should i get the matched stall, and what can i do to make my tranny last on the cheap?

[Fast92RS]

Im returning vortecs because I payed to much money just for an updated/stronger casting, and a .520 spring..

882 head, how often are those to come by? how much they run?

so subframe connectors, tq arm, LCA's drag radials are good?

Becareful wtih drag radials or slicks at first. I would spend some money on the rear first like moser axles, better case, diff. cover and gears. That is the week link. If you make good power with your engine and use slicks with the stock rear you will definetly break the rear. You can spend a little money to beef up the stock rear or just go all out and get a 9" or 12 bolt rear. I would try beefing up the stock rear for the time beaing.

[BonzoHansen]

If I understand correctly, 882s:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_IMG_0175a.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/IMG_0175a.jpg)
No fancy names like vortec or camel humps.

[Batman]

You probably won't be able to beat $649 you paid for those Vortecs. If you get used heads you shouldn't just bolt them on. They are going to at least need to be cleaned up and checked and probably need a valve job, seats, springs, valve locks, retainers maybe valves, milling and you should really get them hot tanked and magnafluxed before you use them to do it correctly. Used heads aren't necessarily the better deal just cause you can get them for $100.00. Nothing would be worse then bolting on a set that isn't re-worked and having them piss coolant everywhere because they aren't flat or worse cracked. I would return your heads and get these

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=67722

....to save yourself some extra money. They outflow the bowtie heads out of the box. You can beat them for the price, just check what springs come on them, I think they are good for .550" lift

[WildBillyT]

My 0.02:

Be careful with 882s. A lot of them were smogger heads that are crack prone with small valves and big 76cc chambers and press in studs. I've thrown away 3 garbage sets of them myself.

You will be hard pressed to hit low 11s with a Gen I 350 NA on your budget while keeping a lot of streetability. I'm not saying it can't be done, but that a 350 combo that will peform like this is can't be just slapped together.

Personally, I'd do a Vortec headed 400. Air Gap manifold, Holley 750, big hydraulic flat tappet cam. If you want to spray it then you should spring for forged pistons. TRW/Speed Pro makes some that are pretty affordable. Yes, you can spray on cast pistons but (to be frank) you really need a safety net on this stuff while you are learning.

If you want to run 11s with no bar then your max is an 11.50. To make your tranny or rear last on the cheap you should just run regular street radials. No slicks, no drag radials, no fat ass radials.

[BonzoHansen]

You probably won't be able to beat $649 you paid for those Vortecs. If you get used heads you shouldn't just bolt them on. They are going to at least need to be cleaned up and checked and probably need a valve job, seats, springs, valve locks, retainers maybe valves, milling and you should really get them hot tanked and magnafluxed before you use them to do it correctly. Used heads aren't necessarily the better deal just cause you can get them for $100.00. Nothing would be worse then bolting on a set that isn't re-worked and having them piss coolant everywhere because they aren't flat or worse cracked. I would return your heads and get these

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=67722

....to save yourself some extra money. They outflow the bowtie heads out of the box. You can beat them for the price, just check what springs come on them, I think they are good for .550" liftWhat is the difference between these & the ones he has, the steam holes? How much does that cost to do, and how much does it cost to return the other ones (shipping, restock fee, etc.)?

[johnjzjz]

i have these 882s they were installed never fired and removed, they have been decked flat, ( SO their not warped ) 3 angle valve job all the valves cut as well - not back cut but i will do that if you want ( back cutting is a roundy trick for more off the corners a low end power thing ) NO steam holes but i will drill them as well 400 motor - trick for heat transfer - the valve guides are perfect and were machined for high lift cam 500/600 lift ( spring seats sized for 1.400 springs i think ) and than converted to PC seals as well, ( top of valve guide cut down to accept a conventional type PC valve seal ) also machined rocker stud base and drilled and taped for 7/16 screw in rocker studs for use with pushrod guide plates, have 15 studs for roller rockers and one for stock rocker assembly, maybe some one has a single 3/8 top 7/16 bottom see picture - i think i have the springs and the light weight racing type retainers / keys as well -- can set the spring height and pressure to your cam or i have cams but mine are all solid flat tappet -- what i would use is a crane for a 406 is a 518 536 - 240 250 on a 106 CL real bumpy makes power 2500 to 5800 in a 400 motor but might not want to go through inspection -- the ports have not been modded ( no extra port work ) no cracks stripped threads or anything else -- this was a sweet set that 800 bucks was spent on them -- i will look for the rest of the parts for them if you think this is the way you want to go ( couple hundred to you for your project charging you only for the additional labor ) Heads are free and the real good used cam is free as well if you choose to go that way -- i can if you send me the info on the motor you have, i will plot it on the shops dyno computer and tell you approx what kind of power to expect -- PLEASE note : your like 14 i think so one of the guys from njfboa will have to pick this stuff up for you when its done -- their are a couple that will help you out i am sure -- i remember being very young and not having any idea and no way to learn, this is my contribution to your project -- any one else have something step up its a club -- i think he could use a performer RPM , 850 carb , HEI dist , alloy tall valve covers , blaster coil , set of good used 3/8 roller rockers --- just let me know ask who ever No hurry on my end i pulled them out today and will look for the other stuff if you will be taking them -- jz

[WayFast84]

john if i what I thought I read was what I read, you are a true gentleman and racer, I dont know anything much about the motor, but If I get one head off and take a picture of the piston would that give you a better idea?

thanks,
Matt

[BonzoHansen]

John = gentleman.

[johnjzjz]

john if i what I thought I read was what I read, you are a true gentlemen and racer, I don't know anything much about the motor, but If I get one head off and take a picture of the piston would that give you a better idea?

thanks,
Matt

i guess your not taking it apart than -- the difference everyone is talking about is compression, the 882s are of the low type 9-to 1 w/ 400 type motor so you can street drive it all the time and not have high engine temps pinging and alike -- 400s run hot they are thin castings, but give up real good power, it is a good choice - but you will need a rev limiter they don't like high engine speeds over 5500 -- ( the connecting rod is too short ) some guys liked it because it snapped off the top of the block and you can grind a special cam but not what you are doing -- it will go faster in the next gear short shifting it at 5000 than reving it higher -- do you get that -- lots of torque = 400 motor - let me know -- photo is of a 400 with a 64cc head and cast stock pistons and too much timing

[WayFast84]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/Wayfast84/Picture002.jpg

thats the motor..

how much do rev limitiers run? msd makes them right?

[johnjzjz]

what is the head # you have ??? msd makes a rev limiter yes -- and block # on the back buy the trans -- those are dished pistons about 1/2 point off our # and what you have looks very clean ???///

[WayFast84]

the blocks a 509. I dont know the head, its a 72 cc though. Thats clean? i thought it looked bad...

[johnjzjz]

does it run ???? # 1 ---- why did u take it apart if it did # 2 ---- and i thought you were puting it together for the spring time ???? what is the plan and how are you going to do it --

[WayFast84]

It soposedly ran strong, in a 50's lead sled. I took it apart cause no matter what heads i go with i will be doing heads/cam. The time to get the car runing is august 8 2007

[Tru2Chevy]

Matt, how much is it going to cost you to return the heads you have?

Also, show us a link to the heads that you have.

- Justin

[Tru2Chevy]

I don't see why you would bother to return them. By the time you sent them back, then bought another set and had them prepped to slap on the 400 you wouldn't be saving much (if any) and you will have put a lot of unnecessary time into them.

What's the story with the bottom end on this motor? Are you just gonna bolt some heads and a cam in and hope for the best, or are you going to rebuild it?

- Justin

[Batman]

What is the difference between these & the ones he has, the steam holes? How much does that cost to do, and how much does it cost to return the other ones (shipping, restock fee, etc.)?

Steam holes for 1, (the going rate up here is $175 to have them drilled and it is an "Oh well" if they crack them), and he got the updated castings from summit, they don't flow as well. The pace heads should be the stock GM one's with steam holes already drilled and higher lift springs added, and they cost less then what he has. even if it costs him $40 to return the other ones (which summit is normally pretty good at working with you) he would still have another money in his pocket and a good head that is up for the job and brand new. Only thing I don't know is his cam lift, I think the springs on this head are good to .550". If you decide to go to the 350 engine Pace also has 2 high flow Vortec heads to choose from, although they cost more. If you are rebuilding the bottom end I, and this is just me, would de-stroke the 400 and make it a 377....but that's me....

[Tru2Chevy]

Steam holes for 1, and he got the updated castings from summit, they don't flow as well. The pace heads should be the stock GM one's with steam holes already drilled and higher lift springs added, and they cost less then what he has. even if it costs him $40 to return the other ones (which summit is normally pretty good at working with you) he would still have another money in his pocket and a good head that is up for the job and brand new. Only thing I don't know is his cam lift, I think the springs on this head are good to .550"

Ahh, I didn't realize that the ones he has don't flow as well.

In that case, then maybe you should return them Matt. Getting the ones that Batman mentioned could be good, and they will handle any nice streetable cam that you choose.

- Justin

[WayFast84]

im going to return my heads, and Im really thinking about Johns offer, i think i might take him up on that. idk yet i dont know about those heads much.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Matt,

What is your budget to get the motor completed? Without knowing your budget, this is all window dressing. You need to clearly define the budget and stay within it. Otherwise it can and will become a slipperly slope to no where land.....I also think you need to have someone with more experience than yourself look over the bottom end. Did you run a leak down test or at least a compression test prior to popping the heads off? Without that info you have no verifiable way to know the general condition of the motor o ther than the previous owners word???. Can you see any cross hatch in the cylinder bores? Is there a carbon ridge at the top of the cylinders? Has the motor ever been rebuilt, meaning is it already 0.030 over?

I am not being difficult, but you need to know the condition of the bottom end, figure out what can be reused, then proceed with the rebuild. If you stab a nice cam in and bolt on a nice set of vortecs only to discover the bottom end has issues after your money is gone, where does that leave you?

The more homework you do know the more rewarding the outcome will be.

Without knowing your alloted budget, its kinda tough to make recommendations on heads, as that is the main expenditure. Everything else is pretty much a fixed cost, but heads can vary big time in $$$$.

At the very least, I would pop off the main caps and check the bearings for any signs of wear, same with a few of the rod caps. If all check out ok, and there was still some sign of cross hatch in the cylinders, then leave the bottom end alone for now. Money saved. Clean, the head mating surfaces thoroughly, but be gentle don't gouge or grind the surface. Use a composite type head gasket as they are more forgiving if the surface is less than perfect. Run the heads that make sense for your budget, if iron vortecs meet your requirements then so be it. Cam (hyd. flat tappet like what has been suggested) to match the heads. Valvetrain (springs, retainers, pushrods, rockers) to match the cam and the intended rpm range. RPM airgap intake with an MSD 6AL to light the fire (has the rev limiter built in, chips are used to adjust) with the 750-800 cfm carb probably a vacuum secondary for use with the 700r4 and maybe a little bit more economy.

Emissions might be a little tough, but with the right timing and carb adjustment you should be ok.

400 are great motors, make great power. The stock 5.565 rods are kinda weak, but in a street motor they should be good to the occasional 6000 blast. If the short block did need attention, I'd immediatley go to a 5.7 rod/piston combo.

But without knowing the budget......its all.....well...just a guess

Chris

[1QWIKBIRD]

im returning everything but the summit distributor..I also now dont care about how low the et is off the bat, because im doing a roll bar instead of sfc..


what do you mean by sfc?

[WayFast84]

my budget is a grand. I got, a cam,intake,distributer,heads for 980 so im sure i could make the budget with used heads or cheaper heads...

i mean sub frame conectors. how do i perform a leak down test and other things?

edit, My budget for the motor is 1 grand, but ill have like 300 extra just incase even though thats more for the chasis/suspension

[BonzoHansen]

Too late for leakdown - heads are off, right?

[WayFast84]

Too late for leakdown - heads are off, right?

1 head is 1 isnt

[1QWIKBIRD]

my budget is a grand. I got, a cam,intake,distributer,heads for 980 so im sure i could make the budget with used heads or cheaper heads...

i mean sub frame conectors. how do i perform a leak down test and other things?

edit, My budget for the motor is 1 grand, but ill have like 300 extra just incase even though thats more for the chasis/suspension

a leak down test is done with the motor still assembled and basically air is pumped into a cylinder and the percentage of that air that leaks out past the rings is used to determine the overall condition of the cylinder bore/ring package. Typical street engines should have 7-8% or so....once you get around 10-12% or above you are looking at new rings or possibly boring the motor oversize $$$$

$1000 for the motor and purchasing heads is really tight. Let me look around and see what's available..at that price level you will have to do all the assembly yourself or get some help for free.....there is no room in that budget to farm out assembly and hopefully you don't need any machine work.

As for the chassis mods, a roll bar without sub frame connectors is kinda silly, they should go hand in hand because the roll bar (assuming a 6 or 8 point bar) is going to have struts that come off the main hoop that should tie into the subframe connectors. Any chassis shop worth their salt would do both connectors and the roll bar, and btw....that **** ain't cheap either. Look at S&W Race cars, the sell pre-bent kits for DIYer, but you need to have a welder and some fabrications skills.

http://www.swracecars.com/roll_bars.asp

Stay focused on your goal Matt, you seem to be wandering a bit.....

Chris

[WayFast84]

Im getting back on track with the help of tim, Tim said the samething about sfc's and a roll bar, some one told me both arent necessary, but W/E I really trust a few people here and sent some pm's out to people on the site who build motors or trans's because this is going to be alot different, Im dead serious this is my project and my phone, I want it done right, and im gonna do it right the first time.

[deadtrend1]

sfc's are worth it. roll bar is unnecessary right now unless you are running with a ET low enough to require one. SFC's were the first thing i put on the 96, and will be the first mod to the 86 as soon as i get it within a few feet of a welder....

[johnjzjz]

Matt,

What is your budget to get the motor completed? Without knowing your budget, this is all window dressing. You need to clearly define the budget and stay within it. Otherwise it can and will become a slipperly slope to no where land.....I also think you need to have someone with more experience than yourself look over the bottom end. Did you run a leak down test or at least a compression test prior to popping the heads off? Without that info you have no verifiable way to know the general condition of the motor o ther than the previous owners word???. Can you see any cross hatch in the cylinder bores? Is there a carbon ridge at the top of the cylinders? Has the motor ever been rebuilt, meaning is it already 0.030 over?

I am not being difficult, but you need to know the condition of the bottom end, figure out what can be reused, then proceed with the rebuild. If you stab a nice cam in and bolt on a nice set of vortecs only to discover the bottom end has issues after your money is gone, where does that leave you?

The more homework you do know the more rewarding the outcome will be.

Without knowing your alloted budget, its kinda tough to make recommendations on heads, as that is the main expenditure. Everything else is pretty much a fixed cost, but heads can vary big time in $$$$.

At the very least, I would pop off the main caps and check the bearings for any signs of wear, same with a few of the rod caps. If all check out ok, and there was still some sign of cross hatch in the cylinders, then leave the bottom end alone for now. Money saved. Clean, the head mating surfaces thoroughly, but be gentle don't gouge or grind the surface. Use a composite type head gasket as they are more forgiving if the surface is less than perfect. Run the heads that make sense for your budget, if iron vortecs meet your requirements then so be it. Cam (hyd. flat tappet like what has been suggested) to match the heads. Valvetrain (springs, retainers, pushrods, rockers) to match the cam and the intended rpm range. RPM airgap intake with an MSD 6AL to light the fire (has the rev limiter built in, chips are used to adjust) with the 750-800 cfm carb probably a vacuum secondary for use with the 700r4 and maybe a little bit more economy.

Emissions might be a little tough, but with the right timing and carb adjustment you should be ok.

400 are great motors, make great power. The stock 5.565 rods are kinda weak, but in a street motor they should be good to the occasional 6000 blast. If the short block did need attention, I'd immediatley go to a 5.7 rod/piston combo.

But without knowing the budget......its all.....well...just a guess

Chris

Hi he being very young and not knowing little more than the BUZZ words he is not going to be able to understand exactly what you are talking about or do the kind of checking you corectly talked about, ( and they have him confused ) , its all well to have all these things heads cams what ever - but he has no idea what he is getting into and the more he reads the comic books ( super chevy ) and alike posts on sites who we all know are full of it -- the deaper into believing he needs all this stuff -- what happened to your first car HZHHZHHAHAH in a first car still two years away from getting to drive it -- if i and others were able to explain he first should only listen to one or 2 guys, who do this and follow the directions that make what he is trying to do -- smart choices -- the very first thing is to as has been said check the rotating assembly, it has dish pistons so compression w/ a 72 cc head is around 8 to 1 not going to be peppy with out smaller chamber or a flat piston top -- one of the better places to get stuff from is the place i use --- www.competitionproducts.com --- or -- www.DougHerbert.com --
both will send paper catalogs and have very good pricing, jegs and summit are the K marts of the performance buzz and some of the cheap stuff they sell is seconds and thirds if you can believe their is a third --( JUNK ) sent back same set of heads 4 times till i got a set that dident have blems and still had to re do the valve job, and cut them flat -- but they were a good deal customer said -- jz

[hardline_42]

Hey Matt, I'm glad your getting psyched about your project again, but a word of warning: If you keep changing your plans, you'll never finish. If you're looking for a good street machine, do the compression test and leak-down test like they told you (I did a compression test on it when I first bought it and it was tight). If there aren't any issues, then stay with the bottom end as-is and throw the Vortecs you bought on them and go to town. Enjoy your car and gain some driving experience first. IMHO, I wouldn't recommend a radical build as your first engine project. Believe it or not, even if you are successful in building a car that can get you in the low 11's, it might not be the best choice for a first car. I wanted a big-block Chevelle as my first car and i got stuck with a Honda Accord. In hindsight, I probably would have killed myself or someone else if I had a 400 HP car back then. Anyway, my point is, it's great that you're serious about this build but IMO I would save the dedicated track car for later. Even from a mechanical standpoint, if you wanna build reliable power at that level, you need to start from scratch with a good internally-balanced roatating assembly, longer rods and forged pistons, and depending on your intended HP goal, splayed mains, a short-fill or other add-ons for strength. All of this equals LOTS of MONEY. Ask me how I know. I've had my 406 short block in the shop for months cuz I can't afford to pay it off all at once. This is your car after all, but my advice is to be a little more conservative with your build. I guarantee that even if you don't make it out of the 12's you'll still have a smile on your face every time you hit the gas.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Im getting back on track with the help of tim, Tim said the samething about sfc's and a roll bar, some one told me both arent necessary, but W/E I really trust a few people here and sent some pm's out to people on the site who build motors or trans's because this is going to be alot different, Im dead serious this is my project and my phone, I want it done right, and im gonna do it right the first time.

That's a good thing. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. So after looking around and spending your $1000 (its always fun when its someone else's money) I can't come up with a combo that includes new heads (with enough valvespring to run mild performance cams), matched valvetrain (cam, lifters, pushrods, timing set, rocker arms), intake, carb, gaskets, bolts, distributor and stays on budget. It would be tough to assemble a matched and reliable heads with valve train for $1000 and still meet your performance goals. At that point you would still need an intake, distributor, carb, fuel pump, gaskets, bolts etc....lots of things pop up when doing a motor.

What heads were on the motor? Were they serviceable or did they have known problems? Why not reuse them? I'm just probing for info, cause the more info the better a decision can be made.

Chris

[1QWIKBIRD]

Im getting back on track with the help of tim, Tim said the samething about sfc's and a roll bar, some one told me both arent necessary, but W/E I really trust a few people here and sent some pm's out to people on the site who build motors or trans's because this is going to be alot different, Im dead serious this is my project and my phone, I want it done right, and im gonna do it right the first time.

You can do connectors without the roll bar and see results, but if you do the rollbar you should also do the connectors.

Chris

[NJSPEEDER]

a few reasons i suggested both as an alternative.
1. he would like to put the car into the low 11's someday requiring the roll bar
2. along with additional chassis stiffness a good set of subframes can provide mounting or an easy cross member install to get the torque arm off the transmission and get the transmission off the flimsy stamped factory mount.
3. a stiffer chassis is easier to tune the suspension for a consistant launch.
4. the stiffer chassis will reduce the wallow often associated with lower rate springs + race shocks(especially 90/10's in front) on the street.

the biggest thing is that i see as a benefit for someone in matt's position is that the stiffer the chassis, teh longer it will last under street/strip use. anyone who has been around racing a while can tell you how a chassis gets used up over time. a street car is no different, and since this is matt's first project we can all be sure that he will want it to last a long time.

just my $.02 on the topic :)

[johnjzjz]

2 and 3 gen race rollers backhalfed with a bar and maybe a 12 bolt or 9 inch and connectors some with race brakes 1500 to 2500 i see all the time ??? but that is off topic -- still used is 35 cents on the dollar -- now lets take his car -- is someone going to weld up a bar kit for him ??/// sub connectors, and fuel cell trunk floor mods, re locate the battery mounted to the rear trunk also attached too frame - w/ kill switch and required ground strap, race seat w/ top attached to bar cross section , with correct seat belt tabs welded facing the correct way to the same bar and lowers also to frame tricky on a 2/3 gen camaro , and the 3/8 - or 1/2" relocated fuel lines around the out side of the chassis in the flywheel area 11 second car requirement and faster -- to go that fast and be able to go to island you must be by the book or he will not be racing -- what a shame that would be -- is anyone helping him do that ?????? -- jz

[NJSPEEDER]

all he would need is someone to install the subframe connectors and weld up a roll bar kit. no fuel cell, floor mods, racing seat or asscoiated mounting brackets required.
with the bar the seat will have to be braced to the helmet bar on the roll bar, but that is an easy little thing to fab up when the bar is being installed. factory seats and brackets are acceptable in the NHRA down to 8.50 or 150mph i believe, unless they changed teh rule and i hadn't noticed.
battery relo is very very easy in a thirdgen as well. the spare tire well makes a perfect home for a very strong battery mount with easy access to safety switch locations.
there are certainly people around who can easily help with the installations needed to get the job done. there is also a healthy time frame invovled to make sure everything is done right.

[WildBillyT]

a few reasons i suggested both as an alternative.
1. he would like to put the car into the low 11's someday requiring the roll bar
2. along with additional chassis stiffness a good set of subframes can provide mounting or an easy cross member install to get the torque arm off the transmission and get the transmission off the flimsy stamped factory mount.
3. a stiffer chassis is easier to tune the suspension for a consistant launch.
4. the stiffer chassis will reduce the wallow often associated with lower rate springs + race shocks(especially 90/10's in front) on the street.

the biggest thing is that i see as a benefit for someone in matt's position is that the stiffer the chassis, teh longer it will last under street/strip use. anyone who has been around racing a while can tell you how a chassis gets used up over time. a street car is no different, and since this is matt's first project we can all be sure that he will want it to last a long time.

just my $.02 on the topic :)

I agree that both the bar and subframe connectors should be done if he is going to be racing in the 11's.

However, I think living with even a 6 point roll bar day-to-day is a pain in the ass. That said, I think he should only go with the subframe connectors until he absolutely positively needs to have a bar and knows that he will be at the track frequently enough to make good use of it.

[BonzoHansen]

This plan is getting big. You need to break it into smaller achievable plans.

Hey wayfast, what is your budget in time & expenses, meaning when do you need this done, and how much can you spend?

[1QWIKBIRD]

all he would need is someone to install the subframe connectors and weld up a roll bar kit. no fuel cell, floor mods, racing seat or asscoiated mounting brackets required.
with the bar the seat will have to be braced to the helmet bar on the roll bar, but that is an easy little thing to fab up when the bar is being installed. factory seats and brackets are acceptable in the NHRA down to 8.50 or 150mph i believe, unless they changed teh rule and i hadn't noticed.
battery relo is very very easy in a thirdgen as well. the spare tire well makes a perfect home for a very strong battery mount with easy access to safety switch locations.
there are certainly people around who can easily help with the installations needed to get the job done. there is also a healthy time frame invovled to make sure everything is done right.


I think we have started down that slippery slope...hold on tight....:nod:

Matt,
To do it right (those are your words) and that is the only way to do it, you do not have the $$$$. That is the truth. $1000 is not enough money to put together the top half of a motor with good heads and valvetrain, intake, carb and ignition. And this would still all be bolted onto a short block of unknown condition which even under the best circumstances doesn't have the right piston for a performance build (not the right way to do things).

Why not take the 400 clean it up bolt the heads back on, maybe throw a mild cam/lifters at it for $125 if it doesn't already have one (does it??). Put a nice intake/carb and ignition on it with good exhaust and enjoy the car. The motor is the easiest thing to upgrade at a later day. The experience you would gain from bolting your motor back together and doing a simple cam sway would reap rewards ten fold down the road. Get yourself a copy of David Vizards "How to Rebuild your small block chevy" and read it cover to cover until your eyes bleed.:shock:

You will never learn until you do it with your own hands. Expierence is an excellent teacher.

Save the money.......until you have more of it.

Chris

[NJSPEEDER]

This plan is getting big. You need to break it into smaller achievable plans.

Hey wayfast, what is your budget in time & expenses, meaning when do you need this done, and how much can you spend?

that is part of what matt and i are going to work out some time this coming week. the goals are big and broad currently and with matt being young and this being his first project the keys are to shoot for a result that is both attainable and maintainable.
it would be fruitless to have the end result be a car that has mood swings or inconsistant performance that ends up leaving him frusrated.
my thought for living with the bar was to put in swing outs. pull a couple pins or bolts out and it is jsut a 4pt sitting behind him. :) swing outs can be fabbed easily or if the finished look is prefered, purchased very cheap.

[WildBillyT]

my thought for living with the bar was to put in swing outs. pull a couple pins or bolts out and it is jsut a 4pt sitting behind him. :) swing outs can be fabbed easily or if the finished look is prefered, purchased very cheap.

Better, but still a pain IMO. The crossbar between the main hoop can't be removable and pass NHRA spec, so there go any rear seat passengers. If he does decide to do it anyway, he should at least go with the pro-street rear bar kit so can keep the back seat.

[NJSPEEDER]

i was looking at the helmet bar as more of a set up and leave out until required. NHRA rules only call for it if teh car is running a number that requires it. until the car is running the number, you can run all, part, or none of a cage and it is perfectly legal.
doing the install of the main hoop and roll bar early in the build, while doing interior clean up and such, also allows for the bar to be modded to legal with only a little bit of work vs having to tear the whole car apart again to do the whole thing.

[WayFast84]

Where all getting a little bit ahead of are selfs, it all started with a simple question. I know im on a tight budget, but thats simply for the motor, and Im going to trust hardline42. if somethings wrong with the motor ill have no choice to pull it back out on a later time and get it rebuilt later..

My biggest isue besides the motor is trans, I dont know if i should use the th350 because it will be able to last longer, or just get a later 700r4 and have that built.. Im really pissed, I hate being taken advantage of, and getting a nother rebuilt 700r4 is going to set me way back..

[BonzoHansen]

I think Chris hit the nail on the head...

To me, tight budget = run what ya brung. Keep the 700 until it grenades.

[NJSPEEDER]

that is a reasonable combination and would certainly be able to put your car into the mid 12's with a little bit of chassis prep. the extra 50 cubic inches you are carrying woudl also make a good amount more torque, so if you hook it the car will get off the line very nicely.
teh only part of it that bothers me is that it says "$1250 of head work" without saying what kind of work is into the heads. for that kind of money it would be worth jstu buying some aftermarket aluminum heads.

[BonzoHansen]

Wayfast, do you expect to pass emissions testing?

[1QWIKBIRD]

I was thinking that too, but the heads i might be using would have around $1000 of head work, $800 of what ever JZ put into them then the money for steamholes and back cut IIRC

edit
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tech-general-engine/323748-why-882-camel-hump.html?highlight=882+heads

this thread has got me worried, Maybe I should just man up. two possibilties are my 416's or regular vortec heads, or just go for new heads. i mean 500 for vortecs +200 on intake=700 Im sure I can get some good performance heads used for that price.. Maybe im just worring to much

Matt,

Focus....

you are going down the slippery slope to no where land again

...remember your $1000 budget.....stick to it.

You are not going to get kick ass heads and the entire top half of a motor for $1000, unless you are buying someone elses worn out junk.

If the offer stands from JZJZ for those 882's that were gone through find out how much he wants, it sounds like he's gonna make you a pretty fair deal, make the deal and move on....Your budget won't allow for anymore than that....

Focus.....

Chris

[WayFast84]

I know my budget is tight, but from the research it doesnt look like I can do much home porting to make the heads even close to flowing like vortecs.
If I can get a carb or for real cheap, I can step up to the pace performance vortecs. I know none of you guys would intentionally steer me wrong im kinda worried, theirs no way ill be able to get 11's n/a with 882 heads, probably not even vortec heads.
/thread

[johnjzjz]

I know my budget is tight, but from the research it doesnt look like I can do much home porting to make the heads even close to flowing like vortecs.
If I can get a carb or for real cheap, I can step up to the pace performance vortecs. I know none of you guys would intentionally steer me wrong im kinda worried, theirs no way ill be able to get 11's n/a with 882 heads, probably not even vortec heads.
/thread



Being very young and not have done anything that worked in a car before you should lower your sights a bit, 11s is out of the question in todays world and going back and forth to school and out at night, it will not last and you will be working for gas money not to mention insurance and dating HELLO. -- do you even have an engine stand ????? working on the garage floor is out of the question , do you have a way to clean the parts you take off --- Safty kleen machine / air compressor -- have you kept the stuff you have taken off separate from one another -- like rocker arms and inside ball pivots have you kept them together as what went where -- it does make a difference -- if it is deff you are changing the cam than the lifters dont matter just throw them away -- NOTE : old cam = new lifters / or same place they came from on the old cam --- new cam = new lifters no exceptions flat tappet -- roller stuff is different -- Y not just re gasket the motor you have and put a small cam and t chain , oil pump in it witha manifold and carb period that is in you budget it will have lots of power run good and last with the stuff you have - jz

[WayFast84]

I know, the car is not going to be my beater, how ever will be driven all the nice days. How much power does compresion really make?

I have the combo Im gonna stick with, I dont care about money anymore, this is as cheap as its gonna get with out cutting corners expect to see the car at january meet, if not at dyno day. Is it possible to replace pistons at home? with out boring and honing and crap? I can afford the pistons just not labor once again..

[deadtrend1]

I know, the car is not going to be my beater, how ever will be driven all the nice days. How much power does compresion really make?

I have the combo Im gonna stick with, I dont care about money anymore, this is as cheap as its gonna get with out cutting corners expect to see the car at january meet, if not at dyno day. Is it possible to replace pistons at home? with out boring and honing and crap? I can afford the pistons just not labor once again..

Um, it would be in the best interest to re hone it. 3 sentences before that you said "without cutting corners". You can do anything at home if you have the tools.

[johnjzjz]

Ok understand this -- industry wide in the cam shaft buzz they know 25% to 35% of all the flat tappet cams installed will and do fail -- reasons are all over the place but you only want to do it once the correct way is expensive and time consuming -- the lifter bores are the number one reason for failier 99% of cam changes no one ball hones them smooth and the stone debris from the hone must be flushed from the motor completly ???? can you do this ) as far as the pistons go if i thought you had someone who knew what they were doing helping you i could lend you the correct bore gague and the two hones ( ball type and cross hatch scuff hone to finish with ) piston change in a 400 the rods are pressed onto the pistons and not lightly -- most times the old pistons brake apart to remove and new ones to install the rod end has to be heated the pin chilled and than quickly installed not a novis thing first timer -- can do that part for you if you ever get their for free i have all the stuff NOTE the pistons in some cases are directionally and left or right side only ( short rod thing 400 motor ) and rods the factory #s on them on the bearing split side with the tonges are facing to the out side of the motor --- see you dont know what i am talking about and yes they can be and will go in backwards and run maybe 1/2 hour than seaze motor -- who is helping you did any one offer that has done any of this -- that is the first thing you need is a guy to help you ??????? --- not buy more parts you cant use -- fine a helper to do the motor and fit up stuff i am jamed in the shop and am not going to make the season opener already, but will fit in some of the things you cant do that will cost you money you dont have, but i cant re do the motor even as a job for 4 or 5 months, in my book mid may is the first opening for anyone including my sons motor -- jz

[NJSPEEDER]

i don't see any point in replacing the pistons if there is no known problem. if you want to update the pistons ir isn't worth jsut doing that when you have the engine half apart already, get it checked out and do fresh bearings on everything while you are at it.

johjzjz, i was always taught that cleaning out the lifter bores with emery cloth was all that was really needed. is that good enough ro are you saying that more shoudl be done? i have never had a new cam fail due to a lifter problem before so i thought it was enough.

[WayFast84]

teh reason Id be changing is for more compresion. heres why

my car is a pretty bad example of a budget performance car. It went 12.52 @ 108mph on motor and 11.62 @ 117mph on a 150 shot. I never once played with the tuning or anything - i just got in and drove it. I'm sure a lot was left on the table. I originally had the XE274H but switched to the nitroushp grind (NX274H). Car slowed down 1 tenth on motor but on spray it did the 11.60 @ 117mph with a 2.0 60ft. If it would have hooked I'm sure it would have been very low 11's.

A good friend of mine has a Vortec headed 400 that runs 11.60's on motor. His car is setup like this: 1981 Malibu weighs 3600lbs with driver. .060 over 400 with stock crank, rods, and kb hyper pistons that give around 10.8:1 (runs on 93 octane just fine). Vortecs are unported and have the stock valves, they have good springs, screw in studs, and all that stuff. Camshaft is Comp's XS282 solid which is 244/252 @ 050, .520/.540 lift, 110LSA. Super Victor vortec intake, 750 Mighty Demon carb, junkyard HEI distributor with good parts and a MSD 6AL box. Trans is a TH350 with an Art Carr "Torco" 9.5" converter (same as my car) that stalls around 4000RPM. Rear has 3.42 gears and a set of 26" ET radials.

...This car is a bad mother ****er for whats put into it and gets driven all over the place. He'll put hundreds of miles on this car on a nice saturday. It's been a best of 11.60 @ 113 on motor and 10.90 @ 123 on a very safe tuned 125 shot. We always joked about putting this motor into my car (much lighter than his, should be low 11's on motor) but it blew up recently and hes moving onto bigger and better things.

I realized that your the man to talk to, your the guy with the old 11 sec combo with vortec heads and a true budget car.

so how what shot did you spray your car with?
would you recomend the xe274 cam for my 400sbc?

plz help
matt

[johnjzjz]

i don't see any point in replacing the pistons if there is no known problem. if you want to update the pistons ir isn't worth jsut doing that when you have the engine half apart already, get it checked out and do fresh bearings on everything while you are at it.

johjzjz, i was always taught that cleaning out the lifter bores with emery cloth was all that was really needed. is that good enough ro are you saying that more shoudl be done? i have never had a new cam fail due to a lifter problem before so i thought it was enough.

its more a debris issue but also what you use -- small specs of sanding material on the cam bearings is not good -- or any place for that matter -- in the days before small ball hones ( we used a brake cyl hone ) yes we did it like that as well cloth and your finger -- its at best partial and usually only gets you finger side slit open nail caught you been their -- we found years back the lifter bore location was also a problen you have no dought seen those redone -- but in my shop we found as well the bottom of the lifer bore was the bad guy, edges will form and than with high spring pressure first time in use, scrape the lifter stoping it in its bore ( debris on it or scraches causing a lock you have seen that as well ) a gaul will apear and lifter will stop turning -- this is the problem it rubs the cam right off -- note i re do a lot of well used race motors and high spring pressure does all kinds of things not seen in a street / redone for race car block motor, maybe i see to much and over do what we do in my shop -- its all about how clean it is when it is fired everything is just ( bull maybe )

[NJSPEEDER]

i woudl always clean up the bore with emery cloth until i could stick a late model roller lifter in and slide it up and down while turning it without any resistance. then clean up would be first with a paper towel and windex, then everyplace in the lifter bore and cam area that i coudl reach with a tack cloth.
my experience is almost all with street motors, maybe i have jsut been lucky so far.

[johnjzjz]

you said roller lifter not an issue -- flat tappet has to turn a roller just runs up and down

[hardline_42]

Matt, how much compression are you after? If you keep the stock dished pistons and only upgrade to a 64cc head you're up approx. a whole point in compression. You have a little more wiggle room if you play with the quench height (you can modify a 0.015 shim gasket for a 350 to fit a 400). If you really want to run higher than 9.5:1 compression you can either mill the heads or swap out pistons, but remember either way you go won't be cheap and it won't be easily reversible if you find out it's not what you wanted. If you go the piston route, you might as well redo the whole bottom end while you're at it.

Also, about the post by SlowZ that you quoted above, it's worth it to find out a few things. For starters, climate and elevation have an impact on how much compression you can safely run. How far above sea level is he? What temps is he running in? Also, why did the engine blow up and why does he (or his friend) feel the need to pursue a different engine instead of rebuilding that one? Just a few things to keep in mind before taking it for granted that 10.8:1 is safe to run on pump gas.

[NJSPEEDER]

i just use a roller lifter to test with because they are more commonly found to not be out of round(gm quality control at it's finest). so if there are any high spots in the lifter bore it is easier to find.
they are also much easier to hold onto since they are a bit longer :)

[johnjzjz]

years back the only way to check a valve guide bore was with an oversize mandrill .0005 to .005 was in the regular kit -- we had one of the guys who was real good on the lathe make me a set of lifter bore go no go gague in .0005 thats a 1/2 size --- But we dont use them today we use a bore scope and check roundness as well -- now putting a .001 bore scope dial in a lifter bore and as you operate it up an down and side to side you can see the difference between handed sanded and ball hone much steadier with the ball hone this is all for flat tappets rollers do other stuff -- jz

[johnjzjz]

Matt, how much compression are you after? If you keep the stock dished pistons and only upgrade to a 64cc head you're up approx. a whole point in compression. You have a little more wiggle room if you play with the quench height (you can modify a 0.015 shim gasket for a 350 to fit a 400). If you really want to run higher than 9.5:1 compression you can either mill the heads or swap out pistons, but remember either way you go won't be cheap and it won't be easily reversible if you find out it's not what you wanted. If you go the piston route, you might as well redo the whole bottom end while you're at it.

Also, about the post by SlowZ that you quoted above, it's worth it to find out a few things. For starters, climate and elevation have an impact on how much compression you can safely run. How far above sea level is he? What temps is he running in? Also, why did the engine blow up and why does he (or his friend) feel the need to pursue a different engine instead of rebuilding that one? Just a few things to keep in mind before taking it for granted that 10.8:1 is safe to run on pump gas.

(you can modify a 0.015 shim gasket for a 350 to fit a 400).
tin gasket wont work with steam holes
the 350 steel ring is aprox 4.090 in diam and sits on the block away from the bore .010 to .035 and the 400 motor is 4.125 the 350 metal ring is sitting inside the combustion chamber ??? almost its entire area it covers over the paper part -- that dident work for long if you did that - jz

[WayFast84]

JZ, the 882's you have and what ever else, do you think it would be a reasonable amount to make it in the 11's all motor? I dont care if its an 11.9

How much money would the 882's be for the steam holes drilled?

[johnjzjz]

JZ, the 882's you have and what ever else, do you think it would be a reasonable amount to make it in the 11's all motor? I dont care if its an 11.9

How much money would the 882's be for the steam holes drilled?

the heads with steam holes and springs set at the correct pressure for the cam you want to use and cleaned guides lubed ready to go, the 882s were decked, guides machined topped for PC crane seals and installed, spring bases were matched to match valve heights, and heads were drilled and tapped for arp studs to use push rod guide plates new 3 angle valve job and all the valves were cut i did say i would also back cut the valves and when i do i will picture the ports so you can see the difference at .100 lift on the valve all for 200 bucks -- i dont have the push rod plates and only have 15 studs BUT i have a shop we work with i will be seeing the guy in a day or so and i might get another stud 3/8 top 7/16 bottom will try -- jz

[johnjzjz]

as far as running 11s with a 3600 lb camaro you will need almost 500 HP and your not getting it with the combo you have

[NJSPEEDER]

he will be way lighter than 3600, prolly closer to 3200.

wayfast, that is a hell of a deal for those heads.

[BonzoHansen]

he will be way lighter than 3600, prolly closer to 3200.

wayfast, that is a hell of a deal for those heads.Yeah, Tim is involved! If Tim ever buys a plasma cutter, look out!

[johnjzjz]

Yeah, Tim is involved! If Tim ever buys a plasma cutter, look out!

take the time and go look at the Miller being demoed -- had i not seen it live i would have thought a bridge port cut he angle they cut on a pipe-- jz

[NJSPEEDER]

got to see it at SEMA. great toy, but i can't afford it :(

matt's car i sfairly low option so it prolly weighed close to 3200 stock. he has already removed a bunch of stuff so there is a good chance of the car hitting the line 3000-3100 i would guess.

[johnjzjz]

got to see it at SEMA. great toy, but i can't afford it :(

matt's car i sfairly low option so it prolly weighed close to 3200 stock. he has already removed a bunch of stuff so there is a good chance of the car hitting the line 3000-3100 i would guess.

my is a can no dash no interior only metal roof and floors q panels all fibre and lexan and on the scale at e town with 160 lb driver its over 3086 15 and change front and 14 in the rear 2 gen 79 car sbc

[WayFast84]

! air !a/c back seat spare tire, and ill prolly remove the passanger seat to for track.

[johnjzjz]

got to see it at SEMA. great toy, but i can't afford it :(

matt's car i sfairly low option so it prolly weighed close to 3200 stock. he has already removed a bunch of stuff so there is a good chance of the car hitting the line 3000-3100 i would guess.

after owning half ass junk ( because ) i dont do that any more only the best avail and the job is cake not well that the best we could do --- craftsman is not even ok for a novis -- ya no the difference bite the bullet --- the real guys well say every time someone looks at something you did that is your rep and if you give it away for a few bucks - you will never get their --

[johnjzjz]

! air !a/c back seat spare tire, and ill prolly remove the passanger seat to for track.

it takes a 100 pounds for a tenth to show up on a real drivers ticket and lots of race time in the same car dont bother taking out seats -- what you have completly removed did you put it on a scale ???????????/

[NJSPEEDER]

a/c, complete system w/ wiring weighs around 75lbs
early 3rd gen rear seats are around 22lbs
spare and jack is around 35lbs
pass seat track i can't imagine is more than 4 or 5 lbs

2nd gens are very heavy cars. they coudl easily be optoned to over 4000lbs. the biggest weight reduction you can do on them is to go aftermarket or fab up your own k-member. the martz engineering piece claims to drop 180-200lbs depending what brakes you go with.

to give you an idea of thirdgen weights, my 91RS was a well optioned T-Top car. it still had power windows, locks, hatch release, stock front seats, and a working air conditioner and weighed in at 3268 with 3/4 tank of gas at the line. they are very light cars and easy to drop weight from.

[johnjzjz]

a/c, complete system w/ wiring weighs around 75lbs
early 3rd gen rear seats are around 22lbs
spare and jack is around 35lbs
pass seat track i can't imagine is more than 4 or 5 lbs

2nd gens are very heavy cars. they coudl easily be optoned to over 4000lbs. the biggest weight reduction you can do on them is to go aftermarket or fab up your own k-member. the martz engineering piece claims to drop 180-200lbs depending what brakes you go with.

busters 3 gen X pro stock bickel car is 2200 w/ driver on return road hahahahhaha my 2 gen is a back up for my kids super gas nova and will never be worth anything i have way too much in it as it is --

[WayFast84]

O yeah I forgot, I took out all the underpadding and probably wont have a headilner
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/Wayfast84/Picture261.jpg

[johnjzjz]

if it was my kid and it was still in the yard like that well let just say hahahhahahahahahahha
Customize: Silverado: Silverado: Trucks: Chevrolet

[NJSPEEDER]

keep the headliner. solid roof cars and big annoying echo chambers without them.

[BonzoHansen]

Tim, are you molding a protégé? :-P

So, you are just building a drag car. So at this point why care what the outside looks like, the inside is goning to be a mess. No lady is gonna get in it. :)

BTW, I don't buy that claim of 180 lbs from the martz chassis. And that thing looks flimsy and appears to use the engine block for rigidity. And counting unrelated parts (CAs, brakes, etc) is weak for advertising a frame based on reduced weight. Stock on ain't that heavy, I moved mine around myself, and I am a weakling with a bad back.

Driver weight counts too. That is my biggest issue. :laugh:

[NJSPEEDER]

they saved a bunch of weight by not including any provisions to mount a bumper on it. the later impact beam is almost 75lbs by itself!!!

[BonzoHansen]

they saved a bunch of weight by not including any provisions to mount a bumper on it. the later impact beam is almost 75lbs by itself!!!I can do that with a sawzall (or a wrench, really). Still can't see why to buy that chassis.

[NJSPEEDER]

box tube > stitched together stampings
more rigid and way lighter :)

[hardline_42]

(you can modify a 0.015 shim gasket for a 350 to fit a 400).
tin gasket wont work with steam holes
the 350 steel ring is aprox 4.090 in diam and sits on the block away from the bore .010 to .035 and the 400 motor is 4.125 the 350 metal ring is sitting inside the combustion chamber ??? almost its entire area it covers over the paper part -- that dident work for long if you did that - jz

Should've elaborated I guess. You scribe the gasket from the inside of the bore to get the bore diameter and you cut it to fit or use a gasket with the appropriate size as a template. Do the same for the steam holes. That's what I meant by "modify." I used the rubber coated kind and I had no problems with my previous engine. But again, my point was that it's a short cut used primarily to get you the optimum quench height with a stock deck height block but it will also get you the tiniest bit of compression increase.

[WayFast84]

Good news, I cleaned up 1 piston, and it looks real nice, cant be more then 5 years old. Bad news, my battery area is rusted.

Gonna return heads soon, and hopefully I can borrow an engine hoist to pull the motor and trans out and sell the short block for like $5 then ill get to work on sanding the engine bay down and repainting it. hope fully it will be done before spring.

[WayFast84]

Well i just got qouted from fed ex to return the heads, not to bad.

I will be ording the pace heads shortly.

Heres what I need help on picking the small things
_______________________________________________
Good head gaskets? https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/productitem_10001_10002_746665_-1_29792

I need a cheap centerbolt valve cover, If you can find anything cheaper then this let me know http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_751836_-1_11355

Fuel pumps, do i have vapor return lines? will i? hows this?
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_
759861_-1_10305


what else do I need, In the combo im replicating, it says he used stock rocker arms, should i upgrade to roller rockers?

[NJSPEEDER]

jsut go to the junk yard for valve covers, local parts store for gaskets(felpro permatorques are good and widely available), and don't worry about the vapor return stuff for the fuel pump just get a holley 110gph unit and be done with it