GM & Ford to move overseas?

[LS1Hawk]

Ford (F) and General Motors (GM): New trouble for the UAW

Ford (http://finance.aol.com/quotes/general-motors-corporation/gm/nys) (NYSE: F (http://finance.aol.com/quotes/general-motors-corporation/gm/nys)) and General Motors (http://finance.aol.com/quotes/general-motors-corporation/gm/nys) (NYSE: GM (http://finance.aol.com/quotes/general-motors-corporation/gm/nys)) have started telling the UAW that they are willing to move much of their production outside the U.S. if they cannot get very large concessions on employee costs.

According to The Observer in the UK, if negotiations do not go well (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,2156191,00.html), "Ford and GM negotiators have said the companies will have no choice but to move their North American operations to countries in Latin America and Asia."

http://wmt.bloggingstocks.com/2007/08/26/ford-f-and-general-motors-gm-new-trouble-for-the-uaw/

[NLinnear]

This could just be a ploy to get the unions to give in, but I wouldn't be surprised if GM and Ford went ahead with it.

[bubba428]

I would be very disappointed...but i only buy used cars anyway

[89formula]

They can't compete with the non UAW companies in the US - Toyota and Honda, primarily.

Wait till the Chinese bring in their $8K compacts next year...

[NJSPEEDER]

i wuld have thought that everyone woudlhave noticed the progression of the big 3 towards foreign production of world platform cars. it has been going on for a long time and will only continue to grow more common unless the unions dislodge their collective head from their *** very soon.

[Predator86]

i thought gm already had factories in mexico?

but ya i heard about the chinese getting ready to sell there cars in the u.s....that wont end well for us

[Tru2Chevy]

i thought gm already had factories in mexico?

but ya i heard about the chinese getting ready to sell there cars in the u.s....that wont end well for us

They do....and Canada as well, but they still have more in the US. But they are threatening to change that if the UAW doesn't back down during their negotiations.

- Justin

[maroman88]

good for them, dam unions f-in everything up. i hate my crappy union im in, i pay them like $10 a week for wat? lousy health benefits that ive never used, knock on wood.

[LS1Hawk]

I can see GM and Ford wanting to get out of that dump of a city Detroit. But to take the majority of operations overseas would be devastating. The UAW has been an albatross around their necks for too long.

[12secondv6]

then "american" cars would be made in another country..... and then.... would you consider them "american?"

[jims69camaro]

then "american" cars would be made in another country..... and then.... would you consider them "american?"

no.

[BonzoHansen]

then "american" cars would be made in another country..... and then.... would you consider them "american?"
no.

But I thought it was all about where the profits flow back to? Or is it where the factory is? Or is it where the parts assemblies are built? :scratch:


It's 2 things: union woes, especially legacy costs, and NAFTA, which in theory is good, but the playing field is far from level and screws our home manufacturing base.

[88Z-Man]

Is there even a truly "american" car anymore? Doesn't like 90% of the parts in our cars get made in other countries as it is. And more and more "american" cars are assembled in other contries to, just like every other product we buy. It seems we can't make anything for ourselves anymore.

[jims69camaro]

It seems we can't make anything for ourselves anymore.

we can, but people have it in their heads that american products are **** and foreign products FTW. our economy has suffered because of it. other side effects include unemployment. and the funny thing about those unemployment statistics is that once unemployment runs out, they don't list you as unemployed anymore. so those 5% national unemployed figures are garbage. it's more like 20%. and let's not discuss those who've had to learn another trade or skill in order to work somewhere other than the plant that shut down, or the fact that they can't make the wages they once did, and they got in on one of those sub-prime loans to get into a house that they really couldn't afford, which is why foreclosures are up 93% in the last year...

it's so much more than where the car is assembled or where the money ends up at the end of the line. parts content must be listed on new cars, so run over to a new car dealer on a sunday and take a gander at how much of the new cars are made with foreign parts, because we can't compete in that market. pretty soon we won't be able to compete in any market, because even the sales and support divisions can be farmed out to places like India.

[jims69camaro]

and just so you know, i feel like i am beating a dead horse with this argument, and that most of my words are falling on deaf ears because people just don't care about anyone but themselves anymore.

[jims69camaro]

But I thought it was all about where the profits flow back to? Or is it where the factory is? Or is it where the parts assemblies are built? :scratch:

do you consider the 'new' GTO an american car? i don't. it was conceived, engineered and built outside of the US. therefore, it's an import. i'm not sure where the money went, but the GM division in australia most likely got the lion's share.

[BonzoHansen]

But I thought it was all about where the profits flow back to? Or is it where the factory is? Or is it where the parts assemblies are built? :scratch:.

do you consider the 'new' GTO an american car? i don't. it was conceived, engineered and built outside of the US. therefore, it's an import. i'm not sure where the money went, but the GM division in australia most likely got the lion's share.I don't know what to consider it, and that is my point. A bunch of folks here (nothing personal, lots of people involved) were quick to jump on 'imports', but I'll be damned if I can find a list of 'American' cars I can go buy. Or a definition.

[88Z-Man]

Thats what I meant by "seems". I know we can do it all here but the big corps won't. Farm it out its cheaper. Yeah, its cheaper and most of the products are crap. Look at all the problems from the stuff coming from China. Is there no pride in made in America anymore? Thats the point. We have priced ourselves out of the market so to speak. And our problems at home keep mounting. We are now a service based society and no longer manufacturing society in my opinion. For what thats worth. Opinions are like dollar bills, worth less then half of the face value. Is that being to cynical or what?

[BonzoHansen]

It has nothing to do with pride. You will find most people are full of it. They talk the talk, but when it comes to brass tax, they buy based on their wallet.

How many people here willingly spend an extra 20% on an item because it is made in the USA, or to support a mom & pop over a super center, or buy from a site (any site, not just this one) sponsor instead of the summits of the world?

[WildBillyT]

At $2000 per car going to health care, I don't blame them.

[jims69camaro]

It has nothing to do with pride. You will find most people are full of it. They talk the talk, but when it comes to brass tax, they buy based on their wallet.

How many people here willingly spend an extra 20% on an item because it is made in the USA, or to support a mom & pop over a super center, or buy from a site (any site, not just this one) sponsor instead of the summits of the world?

i do. i search out companies and products that are made in the US. now, if i can't find one, then what am i to do? go without just so i don't buy foreign? sometimes i do. it all depends on what it is and how badly i need it.

perfect example is piecing together a computer system. while i can get a processor and board made in the US, none of the other stuff is made here. and then what is considered legacy and what is considered state of the art, and what they want to include on their board and what they delete. one of the reasons i bought the SCSI hard drive is that at least the technology is still there. try pluggin an ATA hard drive into one of the newer boards... not supported. not to mention that none of this stuff is available as made in the US.

one of the reasons why i have decided to support edelcrap is because they are still made in the US. their blanks may come from another country, but that is raw material as opposed to the workmanship and craftsmanship of the stuff made in the USA.

i no longer shop at 7-11, once i found out that the parent company (Southland Corp) is 60% owned by foreign interests. i worked for them for a while back in the '90s when they were still 100% US, as a cleanup manager (went into stores run by franchisees after they walked off to clean the store up for the next franchisee). i never would have thought that they would have sold out to the japs.

[NJSPEEDER]

when i shp i don't go far out of my way or specifically hunt for an american made product. i would like to, but fact is i can't afford to be so exclusive. if i see an equal american product and the price difference is minimal, i will buy american, but i can't afford the high market up of us union labor on a lot of products.
one of the easiest places to support america and american labor is at the grocery store. we are a nation that was founded by farmers and the current political and financial situation is ruining that. look at the can/bottle/stickers on what you pick up at the grocery store. you would be amazed the variety of products that are imported and sitting on teh shelf right next to the american made/grown brand.
we are closing farms and converting them to non-food production at an alarming rate in this country. look at the price of your vegi's and milk some time if you need to know what it is doing to the economy. milk costs about 30% more per gallon than gas, fruit and veg prices have doubled in the last 3 years because of the soy/e-fuel boom, and developers are buying up and converting farm land into houses, condos, and shopping centers faster than anyone can do anything about it.

sorry for the rant, coming from a farming family it is jsut something i take personally. my cousin still operates the family dairy farm and it pisses me off to see his pay per gallon only go up about 20% over the same period of time the processors and stores have raised prices 240%(last 10 years)

[Predator86]

Translation= Were in some deep ish

[BigAls87Z28]

Most of GM's cars are still made in North America, and all its profits flow to Detroit, no matter where the cars are sold.
This is about moving production to countires where things like health care and other legacy costs are taken care of by the goverment, not the business.
Do you know that GM is the world's largest private purchaser of Viagra?
It is true that costs are going up due to American production. And guess what, Toyota and Honda are starting to feel the heat as well, and even they are starting to hold back on American products. The advantage they have is that they pull in MASSIVE amounts of money due to Yen manipulation from the Japanese goverment.

Now, the playing field is not level, as Japan can import anything the want into the US, but try having an American car company sell in Japan?
GM is also making ALL of its profits overseas. China is blasting off as they are #1. In Europe, Opel is finally gaining ground and market share with new, fresh, and exciting product. Chevy is also flying high in Europe as well, selling small subcompacts from Korea...funny huh? But its doing great over there!
Holden's new VE cars are selling like hot cakes, and constantly fight it out with the Corolla for #1 sales...#1 with a 4dr compact vs a V6/V8 RWD Muscle Sedan!! That is UNHEARD of in the US.
GM is moving to global platforms, where one car could be made at several plants across the world, helping to cut down on costs of production.
In America, GM continues to prove they make some of the best cars, but they are still slipping market share. It seems as if the image of GM is burned so deep into today's and tomorrow's car buyer of poor quality and workmanship, that most wont even glance at an American car. This goes to ALL American cars outside of trucks and SUV's.
Its a shame, it really is that America is so ignorant and biased that they will follow the words of Consume Reports and not even take a car out for a spin.
As long as the UAW continues to chew off the hand that feeds them, it will only give GM more motive to start with more plants in Mexico and Canada.

As for whats an American car and whats an Import, that changes with person. 99% of GM's cars are still made in North America. The only cars that are imported from outside that would be the new Pontiac G8 from Australian, the Chevy Aveo from Korea, and the new Saturn Astra from Europe. Either way, all profits flow back to Detroit, and right now, the profits made from GM outside of North America are helping infuse the company with the money, while GM NA continues to lose money and market share. If you want to get into American content, you can look at the sticker on all new cars today, they give you a percentage of how much of the car is "domestic". But make no mistake, outside of the Big 3, profits flow back to thier respective countires.

[LS1LT1]

and just so you know, i feel like i am beating a dead horse with this argument, and that most of my words are falling on deaf ears because people just don't care about anyone but themselves anymore.Not falling on deaf ears here man, I hear ya loud and clear.

[LS1LT1]

It has nothing to do with pride.You're right, pride has WAY too little to do with it, but it should.
I'm a firm believer in free trade (as long as it's also fair trade) and capitalism but I'm an even bigger supporter of SURVIVAL.
Survival of the nation that I live in.
Survival of it's economy.
And ultimately the survival of it's military strength (which IS also closely related to it's economic strength, ie: the vast tax dollars generated by an employed population).

Yes it is becoming a bit of a grey area as to what is truly a domestic product and what is not but I still believe that GM is GM and Ford is Ford.
Honda and Toyota are NOT domestic car companies, contrary to what many believe.
Yet the simple concept of pride and how it relates to vehicle purchases is still quite puzzling to me.
Make fun of someone's girlfriend/fiance/wife and a his pride will lash out at you.
Make fun of someone's favorite baseball/football team and that ol' sense of team spirit/pride kicks in and starts a fight.
But yet we have flocks of people buying vehicles from manufacturers based in other nations with government backed administrative policy that not only encourages but essentially forces it's consumers to flat out REFUSE to buy the vehicles produced by the manufacturers (GM, Ford etc.) based in YOUR OWN country.
And normally proud, honest, hard working American citizens (and some 'none citizens') think absolutely nothing about supporting that behavior?
Apparently no pride at all going on there.

I see it as similar to a scenario such as this: If a neighbor were to scream at your little brother/sister and kick them off their porch when they were trying to sell them some raffle tickets for school, would you still buy garden supplies/gasoline/groceries or whatever from his store the next time you went shopping? :confused:

[LS1LT1]

Most of GM's cars are still made in North America, and all its profits flow to Detroit, no matter where the cars are sold.
Now, the playing field is not level, as Japan can import anything the want into the US, but try having an American car company sell in Japan?
But make no mistake, outside of the Big 3, profits flow back to thier respective countires.Very true.
And regardless of some of the 'good' that has come from the likes of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes etc having set up plants in the U.S. and employing Americans, the profits of those companies ALSO goes back their individual countries of origin.
They didn't set up shop here out of the 'goodness of their hearts' or their 'undying devotion to the U.S.' LOL...they did it (as any smart corporation would) to sell more vehicles here and make more MONEY for their own kids back home in Japan and Germany.

[CJDZ24_Z28]

good for them, dam unions f-in everything up. i hate my crappy union im in, i pay them like $10 a week for wat? lousy health benefits that ive never used, knock on wood.

You must be in a sh***y Union ran by Mickey Mouse. I pay $78-$90.00 depending on how many hours a week for my Benefits but that includes Full dental,Chiropractor visits,free emergency room visits,no co-pay prescriptions etc. Please tell me what Union this is? Im sure others here that are in labor Unions will tell you how good they are especially in NJ/NY

[Tru2Chevy]

You must be in a sh***y Union ran by Mickey Mouse. I pay $78-$90.00 depending on how many hours a week for my Benefits but that includes Full dental,Chiropractor visits,free emergency room visits,no co-pay prescriptions etc. Please tell me what Union this is? Im sure others here that are in labor Unions will tell you how good they are especially in NJ/NY

I'm guessing he works for ShopRite or something like that - any type of manual labor union (carpentry, plumbing, electrical, etc) would be yanking way more money from him.

- Justin

[firehawk1120]

Blame the unions for making it hard to run a company anymore. They demand lower hours worked at higher rates of pay plus better health care, and you can almost never get fired. (teachers for example) The high cost of doing business with a union is why my family business is small and my uncle only purchases material from U.S. suppliers and U.S. Tools unless absolutely necessary.

As for the real estate market comment and unemployment rates I tend to disagree. People can get jobs there are places in this country overflowing with job opportunities, but those jobs might not be what the people used to make so they would rather make nothing then something and alter their living. If you can't find a job after 6 months of living on unemployment you aren't REALLY looking. And the 93% increase in foreclosures is highly related to corrupt mortgage companies preying on people with poor education and bad english. They didn't explain what the programs were and people were just too happy to be able to afford a home. It is also rampant in areas where the major employment came from one industry like detroit and now there are more abandon homes then ever, but some areas like the NE are still very strong areas as far as home sales are concerned.

[Predator86]

Lets not flame all unions here....my dad been in a steam fitters union since he left highschool (i forgot what local #) theyre very hard workers and still under apreciated.

I almost joined with him but i decided to pursue mechanics

[jims69camaro]

so, to get back to the original post, yes GM & Ferd have had a presence overseas for quite some time. however, for them to yank anchor and bail from US soil is probably something that would never happen. they are very crafty in that they are using the loopholes in the trade agreements with other countries to sneak their product in the back door. i just don't see them moving ALL operations overseas or in Mexico/Canada.

the unions make it more difficult for a company to make a profit. these days, all your shareholders want to know about is how much the stock is going up or how much that dividend check is for. so, the upper management is constantly harping on the bottom line, which makes it difficult for middle and lower management to get their jobs done at the profit level UM has set for them. they can't lower the bar, either, because then someone, somewhere will start to slack off and end up costing the company money instead of using the buffer to their advantage.

it's still a very depressing thought that the japs have more than 50% of the US automobile market share. this is what ambivalence and downright ignorance has cost us, not to mention those that still think that japan makes a better product than the US - it's just not true anymore.

when people found out that the japs were buying US real estate, they just shrugged their shoulders. meanwhile, the japs are renting that space back to US companies - is that a shrewd move, or what? but since it doesn't impact them on a personal level, people could care less. all of this time the economy has been eroded to the point that it may not be salvagable.

truth be told, i can't wait to get out of here. i'll go sit in a third world country and watch the US deteriorate from afar. :mrgreen:

[LS1Hawk]

Seriously, we're reaching a point where there's going to be no semblance of America left in this country. And it will be the same people who uphold all these foreign companies that when the day comes they will start screaming "How did this happen?!"

[jims69camaro]

"How did this happen?!"

QFT.

[NJSPEEDER]

the unions make it more difficult for a company to make a profit. these days, all your shareholders want to know about is how much the stock is going up or how much that dividend check is for. so, the upper management is constantly harping on the bottom line, which makes it difficult for middle and lower management to get their jobs done at the profit level UM has set for them. they can't lower the bar, either, because then someone, somewhere will start to slack off and end up costing the company money instead of using the buffer to their advantage.

this is exactly why so many companies have started following GM's lead and marketing world platforms under different, market specific, brand names. it works to the consumer's benefit as well as that of the parent company when the costs and quality that will later determine the price and warranty are controlled at one location instead of spread out all over the world.
GM isn't run by fools. they will find ways around as many costs as they can while still putting out desireable vehicles at reasonable prices.
the problem rests largely with the image side of the equation that has been mentioned several times but not really followed through on. it is more than jsut who made junk in 1985, it is about prouct placement, and advertising. GM lost their way in the 90's and is only now getting the ship pointed back in teh right direction as far as letting the public know the what, where, and how much of the prducts they offer.
.