electrical nightmare incarnate

[89CamaroRS]

ok, i've been working on getting my 89 RS v8 conversion wired properly. i've finally got everything engine-wise powered and working. but now i have the same problem that made me start the conversion in the first place. randomly one day when the v6 was still in it, i hit the starter and nothing happened; not even a soleniod click. but the water temp gauge tached almost hard enough to break the needle (never happened before). all other electrics worked then and work now.

i thought it was the starter so i said to hell with it and started the conversion. now it's doin the same thing with all the new stuff in it.

i just dug the ignition switch out of the steering colume. it's got a few wiggly pins but looks fairly new. i'm gonna replace it tomorrow anyway just to rule it out. if that doesn't fix the problem, does anyone have any other suggestions on what to look at? i know the starter is good(i drove the vette into place right before i started the swap) and it's wired just as it was in the vette. if a new ignition switch doesn't solve the problem (and i'm not very confident in it based on the fact that it looks like the owner before me replaced fairly recently) i'm completely stumped. wiring is my shakiest car topic so please, wiring gods, treat me like i know nothing.

[WildBillyT]

Well, I would start by checking for bad grounds and maybe a bad temp sender. I know if the fuel sender isn't properly grounded or bad it will peg the gauge.

[camaro2you]

that is screaming neutral safety switch.

[Tru2Chevy]

Will, what happens when you jump the starter manually?

- Justin

[89CamaroRS]

Well, I would start by checking for bad grounds and maybe a bad temp sender. I know if the fuel sender isn't properly grounded or bad it will peg the gauge.

Thx, I'm pretty sure i've got everything grounded well but i'll go back over them today. And actually I'm pretty sure(will check) the temp sender isn't connected...so the gauge shouldn't be getting any signal at all, correct?

and would a bad ground in a sending unit be enough to completely short the starter's power?

[89CamaroRS]

that is screaming neutral safety switch.

As in the switch in the consol that kills the starter if the car's not in park? this is my first f-body so where would i find that switch?

[camaro2you]

As in the switch in the consol that kills the starter if the car's not in park? this is my first f-body so where would i find that switch?

Yup its in the center console, its bolted right to the shifter, youll see a bunch of wires going ot it.

[WildBillyT]

Thx, I'm pretty sure i've got everything grounded well but i'll go back over them today. And actually I'm pretty sure(will check) the temp sender isn't connected...so the gauge shouldn't be getting any signal at all, correct?

and would a bad ground in a sending unit be enough to completely short the starter's power?

No, a bad ground would not do that. But it would explain a wacky temp gauge.

[89CamaroRS]

Just got the new ignition switch in, same problem. the neutral safety switch is on order, should have it tomorrow. I also just noticed today that in addition to the temp gauge gettin pegged, the e-brake light comes on when i hit the starter as well. that mean anything to you guys?

[camaro2you]

its been a while but i think my brake light used to come on along with my temp gauge pegging when the neutral safety was on the fritz.

[Tru2Chevy]

Will - answer my question. Will the car crank if you jump the posts on the starter?

- Justin

[89CamaroRS]

Will - answer my question. Will the car crank if you jump the posts on the starter?
- Justin

my bad justin, starter cranks as it should with power to the ignition post.

[Tru2Chevy]

my bad justin, starter cranks as it should with power to the ignition post.

OK....then NSS is a pretty good assumption. I don't remember the two pins to jump it, but I can check tomorrow for you if you want.

- Justin

[89CamaroRS]

OK....then NSS is a pretty good assumption. I don't remember the two pins to jump it, but I can check tomorrow for you if you want.

- Justin

thx man, i just put a hot wire to the ignition post (the main hot post has the hot from the battery already) and it cranked normally.

did you mean the two pins to bypass the nss or jump the starter?

[89CamaroRS]

its been a while but i think my brake light used to come on along with my temp gauge pegging when the neutral safety was on the fritz.

sweet, thx man. i'm headed to napa right now to pick it up. i'll let ya know tonight if it worked.

[89CamaroRS]

got the new nss in. still no change.

[BonzoHansen]

Let’s review – is this correct?

*This is a 1989 Camaro RS automatic car (before & after swap).
*No starter when key is in START. Starter will crank if jumped.
*Temp gauge pegs on START (how about RUN?). Temp sender isn't connected
*Brake light lights on START (how about RUN?)

It did this before swap, still does it now. So not really swap related?

Tried:
IGN switch
NSS

Quick thoughts:
*Does it have VATS? I have no experience with VATS and don’t know when it started.
*Does NSS have adjustment room?
*You have a manual w/wiring diagrams?
*Is there any kind of weird interlock or brake pedal switch that needs to be correct to start?
*Was the temp sensor bad before the swap? Was it hooked up then?
*What is battery voltage as mesured at battery with volt meter?

Edit: I found an 86 diagram via TGO. No vats, no brake switch or other type of circuit interrupt.

[89CamaroRS]

Let’s review – is this correct?

*This is a 1989 Camaro RS automatic car (before & after swap).
*No starter when key is in START. Starter will crank if jumped.
*Temp gauge pegs on START (how about RUN?). Temp sender isn't connected
*Brake light lights on START (how about RUN?)

It did this before swap, still does it now. So not really swap related?

Tried:
IGN switch
NSS

Quick thoughts:
*Does it have VATS? I have no experience with VATS and don’t know when it started.
*Does NSS have adjustment room?
*You have a manual w/wiring diagrams?
*Is there any kind of weird interlock or brake pedal switch that needs to be correct to start?
*Was the temp sensor bad before the swap? Was it hooked up then?
*What is battery voltage as mesured at battery with volt meter?

Edit: I found an 86 diagram via TGO. No vats, no brake switch or other type of circuit interrupt.

Yes, 89 RS auto now with carbed 350 rather than 2.8 FI.
Brake light and temp gauge do not light/peg in run position.
Before the swap the temp gauge would peg as it does now. didn't notice the brake light coming on then but that doesn't mean it wasn't.

Yes, it is a VATS equipped car.
Yes, the NSS does have adjustment room. I tried it in several different positions, no effect.
I have a 82-92 firebird chilton's manual with wiring diagrams, not for the maro though. so far most things have been the same.
No, the temp gauge did not function before the swap, (was hooked up) but the car ran fine until this thing with the starter happened.
I do not have a volt meter, but the battery is fairly new and was fully charged via a trickle charger before installation. Voltage gauge reads full 12 volts with key in RUN position.

[camaro2you]

Try bypassing the nss with a jumper wire, just completely disc the plug. If you need help finding out what wires let me know.

[89CamaroRS]

Try bypassing the nss with a jumper wire, just completely disc the plug. If you need help finding out what wires let me know.

good idea. and yes, i'll definately need help with which wires to mess with. my whole goal with this swap from the beginning was 'dont start a fire', lol. god i hate electricity!

[Tru2Chevy]

I'm pretty sure that it's the two outside pins on the NSS. I can check mine if you need me to.

- Justin

[89CamaroRS]

I'm pretty sure that it's the two outside pins on the NSS. I can check mine if you need me to.

- Justin

yeah, if u could do that i'd appreciate it. thx bud.

[BonzoHansen]

His NSS is not the issue. The wires are cold going to it. I'm guessing the VATS is doing it. No need to change the NSS wiring.

[Tru2Chevy]

Isn't vats controlled by the ECM...which is no longer in the car?

And doesn't Vats only stop power from going to the fuel pump? Meaning that the car will crank all day, but won't start?

- Justin

[BonzoHansen]

I got no power to the NSS. So it ain't that.

I never messed w/vats. But I just looked up the 89 diagram. It seems the 89 did not go through the ECM. So I think either A) a simple cut & ground or B) cut out the starter enable relay.

I actually like A, make that ground a toggle and you got your own starter interrupt.

[PolarBear]

Isn't vats controlled by the ECM...which is no longer in the car?

And doesn't Vats only stop power from going to the fuel pump? Meaning that the car will crank all day, but won't start?

- Justin

I think depending on the year VATS was twofold. It sent a signal to the ECM to pulse the injectors, so if you had the wrong key, failed key or no key it would crank but not fire. Second (as shown in the diagrams Scott put up) it grounded the relay for the starter, so if you had no VATS you wont be able to crank. I know from experience :lol: . I am guessing that it may be a VATS issue here. Scott if you want some help with this next time you go let me know and I can lend a hand.

[89CamaroRS]

alright then, tomorrow i'll try gettin around the VATS system. keep ur fingers crossed.

[PolarBear]

IIRC There should be 4 wires on the starter relay. It should be behind the DS kick panel where the hood release is. Should be a silver box with the 4 wires, 2 large gauge and 2 small gauge. Mine has a light color wire (maybe yellow) and a dark wire with a stripe. I extended the dark small gauge wire and put a ring on the end of it and put it under the screw for the seat belt indicator, solved my problem for the cranking.

[BonzoHansen]

I found ok not great wiring diagrams. Probably hoisted off the autozone site before AZ pulled the 3rd gen diagrams (I'm guessing copyright/payment issues).

http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=19

For the fuel pump IF the red wire to the relay is only hot on START, then you can use it to trigger the realy. All other wiring stays the same. Parts store relay in case of problem, and GM wiring.

I make the assumption that red wire is hot at crank only because it not it would keep the FP running all the time. I know there is a crank fuse.

Also Will, the diagram shows that pink lead from ignition switch to ign coil, so like I told you, splice that big pink out of the harness to the HEI (test it 1st, of course). S-Can that temp HEI wire you have now.

[BonzoHansen]

Cooling fan - add a switch. I see no switch in these diagrams, so what we saw must have been a CTS. No good for us.

Like this, again this lets you buy parts at any parts store.

[89CamaroRS]

IIRC There should be 4 wires on the starter relay. It should be behind the DS kick panel where the hood release is. Should be a silver box with the 4 wires, 2 large gauge and 2 small gauge. Mine has a light color wire (maybe yellow) and a dark wire with a stripe. I extended the dark small gauge wire and put a ring on the end of it and put it under the screw for the seat belt indicator, solved my problem for the cranking.

Just pulled that kick panel off. I dont have any relay behind there. Could it be in another spot?

[PolarBear]

Just pulled that kick panel off. I dont have any relay behind there. Could it be in another spot?

Maybe that is why it wont crank? :lol: I am not sure. That is where it was on both of my 3rd gens. You may just need to start tracing wires.

[PolarBear]

For the fuel pump IF the red wire to the relay is only hot on START, then you can use it to trigger the realy. All other wiring stays the same. Parts store relay in case of problem, and GM wiring.

I make the assumption that red wire is hot at crank only because it not it would keep the FP running all the time. I know there is a crank fuse.

That red wire should not be connected to anything, should just be hanging with a protective cover under the relay, it is so you can manually prime the fuel pump. You apply power to it.... You wouldnt know it unless you have seen it before. The first picture is not great, or for the wrong year. We just need to look at my books, let me know when you get home and I will bring them over

[89CamaroRS]

Maybe that is why it wont crank? :lol: I am not sure. That is where it was on both of my 3rd gens. You may just need to start tracing wires.

I do have a black box behind some sort of sticky pad under that kick panel. It has 4 wires coming out of it but it's 3 large gauge and one small. 2 yellow and 1 green w/stripe large gauge and one green small gauge. Could that be it?

[BonzoHansen]

That red wire should not be connected to anything, should just be hanging with a protective cover under the relay, it is so you can manually prime the fuel pump. You apply power to it.... You wouldnt know it unless you have seen it before. The first picture is not great, or for the wrong year. We just need to look at my books, let me know when you get home and I will bring them over

Actually, that makes some sense.

[PolarBear]

I do have a black box behind some sort of sticky pad under that kick panel. It has 4 wires coming out of it but it's 3 large gauge and one small. 2 yellow and 1 green w/stripe large gauge and one green small gauge. Could that be it?

Yes that is it, I forgot about the pad with the adhesive on it.

[89CamaroRS]

Yes that is it, I forgot about the pad with the adhesive on it.

Kool, thx. Then i should be grounding the only small wire (dark green)?

[PolarBear]

Kool, thx. Then i should be grounding the only small wire (dark green)?

The colors of the wire in my Helms manual (I have the 91 manual) are different but I think that should be the one

[PolarBear]

How is it going?

[89CamaroRS]

How is it going?

Sorry, my band had shows all weekend. Just got a chance to ground that relay. No change with the one small gauge green wire grounded. i have 2 large gauge yellows and one large gauge green w/white stripe still. Should i try anything with them?

[PolarBear]

Not sure, I wouldnt mess with anything else until you get a book with wiring diagrams for your year. Just let me make sure I got this correct, you havent done anything (other than listed here) to the harness switching from the V6 to the carb, right?

[89CamaroRS]

i removed the MAF sensor and a couple other sensors that the FI system used. Nothing that would affect cranking. And of course, this is a problem i had before the swap was even started so i doubt it has anything to do with it. Can anyone suggest a place to pick up a good diagram?

[BonzoHansen]

Maybe that starter relay is bad. Have you checked you have power into it? (yellow lead)

http://www.njfboa.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1508&d=1189473041

The yellow & the green/white wire should be big. The dk grn one is likely small gauge.

Do you have a test light?
http://www.autoelectric.ru/autoalarm/audiovox/tsp-550/tsp-550-8.gif

If not, go down to the NAPA by the train station & get one.

[89CamaroRS]

the large gauge dark green going to the pass key decoder module would be the vats signal correct? Should i try grounding that wire to bypass VATS?

and no, i dont have a test light. i'll grab one today.

[PolarBear]

the large gauge dark green going to the pass key decoder module would be the vats signal correct? Should i try grounding that wire to bypass VATS?

That was what I was trying to convey. Maybe you grounded the wrong wire?

[89CamaroRS]

That was what I was trying to convey. Maybe you grounded the wrong wire?

sorry, i had the striped green reversed with the dk green. I grounded the VATS wire already. Didn't help. I have the whole relay itself on order. I'll pick it up tomorrow and see what happens.

[89CamaroRS]

Could i safely bypass the relay just to see if that's the problem? Connect that yellow lead to the dk green that runs into the nss and try the key?

[PolarBear]

Could i safely bypass the relay just to see if that's the problem? Connect that yellow lead to the dk green that runs into the nss and try the key?

Yes you can try that. I think Bonzo said he would just remove the relay completely, he may have said in person when we were thinking of solutions to your issue.

[89CamaroRS]

Just tried it once with each of the yellow wires connected to the green w/stripe. Didn't work. Does that eliminate the possibility of the relay being the problem then?

[PolarBear]

Just tried it once with each of the yellow wires connected to the green w/stripe. Didn't work. Does that eliminate the possibility of the relay being the problem then?

Probably. I am thinking starter switch on the column now, but like Scott said you should really see if the yellow wire has voltage. Could be an open fusable link or something, that would be the black part of the schematic on the red wire.

[89CamaroRS]

Probably. I am thinking starter switch on the column now, but like Scott said you should really see if the yellow wire has voltage. Could be an open fusable link or something, that would be the black part of the schematic on the red wire.

Just picked up the test light. yellow wire has no voltage at start. If the starter switch is the same thing as the ignition switch it's brand new. replaced it last week.

[PolarBear]

Just picked up the test light. yellow wire has no voltage at start. If the starter switch is the same thing as the ignition switch it's brand new. replaced it last week.

Just because it is new doesnt mean it works, sad unfortunate truth. So I would go back further, see if there is power at the hot side of the ignition switch. Should be hot at all times, and maybe red in color..

[89CamaroRS]

Just because it is new doesnt mean it works, sad unfortunate truth. So I would go back further, see if there is power at the hot side of the ignition switch. Should be hot at all times, and maybe red in color..

that was my plan for tomorrow. gonna keep moving back till i find power. is there any component between the ignition switch and the junction box?

[89CamaroRS]

Just because it is new doesnt mean it works, sad unfortunate truth. So I would go back further, see if there is power at the hot side of the ignition switch. Should be hot at all times, and maybe red in color..

you are absolutely right sir. the red wire going into the ignition switch is hot. i'll try replacing it one more time, then i'm goin push-button.

[PolarBear]

you are absolutely right sir. the red wire going into the ignition switch is hot. i'll try replacing it one more time, then i'm goin push-button.

:lol: I have thought about that too! But then you WILL need that relay in the circuit. You will have to put the key in "run" then push the button, so make sure you dont think that will get "old" and annoying before you commit.

[BonzoHansen]

If the red wire going into the switch is hot, that wire could be shorting anywhere in the circuit. That does not definitively mean the switch is bad. I bet it is chafing at the tube going down to the starter, some somewhere else under that hood.

To do a push button start, you still need good power in or you will never start your car hot. I already told you my opinion on that anyway. Plus you need the IGN switch for more then start. it has CONST HOT, START, RUN, and ACC settings too. Do not confuse your ignition switch with a start switch.

Edit: Percocet & reading comprehension bad mix, LOL. You mean hot as in has power, not like it is warm. LOL

Buy another switch, change it, take the other one back. You need that switch to work.

[89CamaroRS]

I will eventually replace that switch, but right now i just need this car running for all weather transportation purposes. I've been riding my motorcycle everywhere until now but the weather is not gonna hold well enough for that much longer. i've got the button installed, still wont crank. dont get the pegged temp gauge or brake light now though. the lead coming out of the nss is hot, in the engine bay it isn't so i assume that localizes the problem to the dash somewhere. i'm pullin off the pad today and am gonna find the short. after i fix it, i'll try hookin it up to the ign switch again and see if it works.

[89CamaroRS]

aight, finally got power to the ignition post but get this: The wire is hot all the way down to the soleniod, but the post it's connected too isn't. wire hot, connected to steel post which is not hot. WTF?!?!?! I'm also only gettin 10.87 volts own to it thanx to havin the doors open for 2 weeks messing with this wiring so the batt's on the trickle tonight. But does this make sense to anyone?

[Tru2Chevy]

That's odd. So the wire is good all the way to the starter solenoid, but the post on the solenoid doesn't get any power coming out of it?

But if you jump the starter using that post - it starts?

- Justin

[89CamaroRS]

That's odd. So the wire is good all the way to the starter solenoid, but the post on the solenoid doesn't get any power coming out of it?

But if you jump the starter using that post - it starts?

- Justin

yup. but i got it goin today. the ignition post itself is stripped right where it needs threads to clamp down on the wire. i soldered it up and sealed it with silicone. now the push button start works beautifully. should have her on the road this weekend.

to everyone that replied to this thread and put up with my electrical ignorance, thank you very very much. couldn't have done it without you guys.

[Tru2Chevy]

Cool beans. Give me a shout when it's up and running and you can swing by sometime during the day.

- Justin