Found the fuel problem...

[Teds89IROC]

After cutting the panel and loosening the O-ring for the pump assembly me and Alex pulled it up and came across this..

http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/26755/2016560630081415360S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2016560630081415360QvbzOk)

[BonzoHansen]

So the pump was loose?











(good job not blowing the car up :) )

[GP99GT]

wow...zip tied in there. nice

[Fast92RS]

I dont like the method of cutting the floor pan to get to the pumo but hey to each his own. At least you found your problem now since you got the pump out get a walbro pump. Also nice wire nuts.

[ar0ck]

I dont like the method of cutting the floor pan to get to the pumo but hey to each his own. At least you found your problem now since you got the pump out get a walbro pump. Also nice wire nuts.

Its already a Walbro 255 pump in their, and the wire nuts were changed today.

[Kat]

You cut the floor? You ****in idiot. Could of asked me and I would have came up and changed it out for ya in about 3-4 hours.

[ar0ck]

You cut the floor? You ****in idiot. Could of asked me and I would have came up and changed it out for ya in about 3-4 hours.

Why we had it opened in 10 minutes with a pair of electric sheers, and the pump assembly out in 2. I don't get the big deal. The way the floor is in that spot it appears to have been specifically designed for an access panel? I even did it on my 95' Z and will never look back on the idea. The area is thin sheet metal, that certainly would not be the ideal material if it was needed for structure. Tons of foriegn cars have access panels for their fuel pumps, why can't we?

We even have nice hinged & sealed covers over them.

[Teds89IROC]

what Alex said, I already dropped the rear and exhaust to put in a pump 2 years ago..F-that. Plus, now my exhaust is welded all the way up to the Y-pipe. We put fittings on each gas line and I have metal to make a door and seal it. There is no problem with an access panel whatsoever.

[BonzoHansen]

Having an access panel is good, I plan on having one in my 67. The point being made is not having a panel, it is cutting it with the tank in place. Because one bad spark = boom. All you need is some gasoline vapors, like from the vent line or a bad sender gasket, and a spark. God forbid you hit a line or the tank. There are lots of ways to do things, some of them are better then others. That is all that is being said. It's akin to working under a car held up by a floor jack. Sure it nmight hold, but why test it?

Glad you got it fixed Ted, very cool.

[ar0ck]

Having an access panel is good, I plan on having one in my 67. The point being made is not having a panel, it is cutting it with the tank in place. Because one bad spark = boom. All you need is some gasoline vapors, like from the vent line or a bad sender gasket, and a spark. God forbid you hit a line or the tank. There are lots of ways to do things, some of them are better then others. That is all that is being said.

Glad you got it fixed Ted, very cool.

We we're def careful about those things. We used a pair or electric cutting sheers to make the ultra clean cut-out, and a small saw to cut the lines and we replaced the cut lines with some very nice re-usable brass fittings. Its really nicely done if I may say so myself :mrgreen:

[BonzoHansen]

I hear you. But you can't be careful about what you can't see. Bad vent hose, bad sender gasket, etc.

I think enough voices have been heard here so if someone sees this in the future they might realize cutting the floor with thte tank in is not the preferred method.

[Teds89IROC]

When I had the tank out last time I replaced all my lines and gaskets etc so the chance of one leaking was minimal, but I see your point about the unseen things and stuff. I'm just really happy the car is fixed. I'll snap pics tomorrow of the fittings and of the "door" when I make it.

[unstable bob gable]

Nice job! Now, git over here and fix my T-Type's fuel probs! :nod:

[Tru2Chevy]

So the pump was just loose?

I don't know anything about in tank pump setups, so I'm not sure what's wrong by looking at that pic.

- Justin

[Blacdout96]

you might wanna change that strainer while your at it, and unfortunately ive seen a few people do the ol cut above the tank trick, I know it minimizes the time greatly, but that is dangerous, and not only that, but it shows you tend to ghetto rig things, I.E. those wingnuts, I mean come on, a little sodering, and shrink wrap and youd be fine, a bad spark from those wing nuts and kablooie!!! Ive found out in life weither it woudl take you 20 minutes to do something or 20 hours, the outcome look and performance wise is worth the 20 hours anyday. if you are goign to put and access door ( which would be nice to have incase this happens again) you should work with the tank partially dropped so you can put a hing on it and stuff.

[Teds89IROC]

you might wanna change that strainer while your at it, and unfortunately ive seen a few people do the ol cut above the tank trick, I know it minimizes the time greatly, but that is dangerous, and not only that, but it shows you tend to ghetto rig things, I.E. those wingnuts, I mean come on, a little sodering, and shrink wrap and youd be fine, a bad spark from those wing nuts and kablooie!!! Ive found out in life weither it woudl take you 20 minutes to do something or 20 hours, the outcome look and performance wise is worth the 20 hours anyday. if you are goign to put and access door ( which would be nice to have incase this happens again) you should work with the tank partially dropped so you can put a hing on it and stuff.

As alex said before..those wire nuts were changed today. and what else is ghetto rigged? There is nothing on my car ghetto rigged. Also, why would I put a hinged door on there? The best way is to use machine screws with some type of weather stripping; all it's doing is keeping out dirt and any possible water that is highly unlikely of getting to there.

Justin, we pulled the pump assembly out and the pump was disconnected from the main line.

[Kat]

It isn't worth my time to even write a respons about how that is a hack... *grumbles about spending too much money on AN stuff for my fuel system to make sure it doesnt leak and safe!*

Anyways, the sending unit is screwed up. Its missing a part at athe bottom that holds the fuel pump in place. When I get home I have a pic of mine and I'll show ya what I mean.

[Mike]

It isn't worth my time to even write a respons about how that is a hack... *grumbles about spending too much money on AN stuff for my fuel system to make sure it doesnt leak and safe!*

then why did you respond more than once in this thread? other people have stated why they think its no good, and ted and alex have stated their precautions and solutions to dispell their issues with the way they did it, yet all you do is call it a hack and call him a ****ing idiot

[Kat]

Ted knows the way that I feel about cutting a hole in the floor and using brass compression fittings for fuel from previous encounters with this. Also if ya look I did tell him where the problem lies in why the fuel pump slipped of the feed line.

[The Fixer]

Brass compression fittings should be just fine in a TPI setup, it's only 50ish psi. Houses run more than that in their plumbing systems with the same type of fittings. In fact, Dorman supplies them with their fuel line repair kits. If they weren't safe to use, wouldn't Dorman have a huge liability on their hands by supplying them for techs to install with their parts?

BTW, I'm only stating this because I used the Dorman lines/compression fittings when we did my TPI swap many miles ago, and they're all just fine. I haven't had a problem with 'em.

[BonzoHansen]

Maybe not ideal, but the compression fittings are probably ok in that app. Not for brakes, the PSI is too high. Just throwing that out there.

Moving to engine section for later reference...

[Blacdout96]

As alex said before..those wire nuts were changed today. and what else is ghetto rigged? There is nothing on my car ghetto rigged. Also, why would I put a hinged door on there? The best way is to use machine screws with some type of weather stripping; all it's doing is keeping out dirt and any possible water that is highly unlikely of getting to there.

Justin, we pulled the pump assembly out and the pump was disconnected from the main line.

Hey whatever you gotta do to get your door, IDK if you were gonna screw it or hinge it or what, but I walso see a zip tie that held the pump there, thats another ghetto rig, it would be better, if thats the only thing holding it ontho the sending unit, to use a clamp because it appears to have fallen off once wiht it. and your gonna stick wiht the wire nuts? hey its not my car, but there better for houses, not within a tank fuel of fuel and vapors, just my $0.02.

[BonzoHansen]

Hey whatever you gotta do to get your door, IDK if you were gonna screw it or hinge it or what, but I walso see a zip tie that held the pump there, thats another ghetto rig, it would be better, if thats the only thing holding it ontho the sending unit, to use a clamp because it appears to have fallen off once wiht it. and your gonna stick wiht the wire nuts? hey its not my car, but there better for houses, not within a tank fuel of fuel and vapors, just my $0.02.

that is the before pic.

[Fast92RS]

This same thing was discussed on thirgen.org with over 100 posts of people fighting back and forth about it but here are some pics of the bad and the pretty good. There is a post about it were someone did it and there rear hatch area started to buckle before of the access cut into the floor.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tpi/283636-fuel-pump-acces-done.html
good
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/attachments/tpi/120725d1151017530-fuel-pump-acces-done-img_0951.jpg
bad
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/attachments/tpi/120731d1151018104-fuel-pump-acces-done-dscn1217.jpg

[ar0ck]

The Zip tie that was their originally is what came with the kit.

[Blacdout96]

The Zip tie that was their originally is what came with the kit.

Are you serious!!?? wow, yeah talk abotu cheap, its like those AFR heads, great heads but come wiht cheap rocker studs. stil, a clamp should help holding that better then some plastic zip tie.

[Teds89IROC]

Are you serious!!?? wow, yeah talk abotu cheap, its like those AFR heads, great heads but come wiht cheap rocker studs. stil, a clamp should help holding that better then some plastic zip tie.

yea, we used metal hose clamps, so that pump should't go anywhere. Also, those compression fittings I got are good to about 200psi so they are more than fine for my use. Pics to come shortly...

[Teds89IROC]

It isn't worth my time to even write a respons about how that is a hack... *grumbles about spending too much money on AN stuff for my fuel system to make sure it doesnt leak and safe!*

Anyways, the sending unit is screwed up. Its missing a part at athe bottom that holds the fuel pump in place. When I get home I have a pic of mine and I'll show ya what I mean.

the walbro unit wouldn't fit with the stock piece that was at the bottom of the assembly, which is why the kit came with zip ties (now replaced with metal hose clamps) The pump itself is cradled in that "C" shape and secured to it while the rubber hose goes straight up to the feed line.

[Blacdout96]

yeah you shouldnt have problem wiht the fittings, it is only with high high pressure and sudden increase in pressure is when they'd have a problem. I used to have people come in and buy them when I worked at advance, I told them not to use them , but noone wants to listen to the guy thats been behind the counter for 2 years. I had one guy come in and say, yeah im fixing the brake lines on my sons car, what size compression fittings do I ned for his car. I told him not to use them and he said and I quote: well Im in the pipe fitters union, so I know what im doing and what they're used for, and they will work. I said whatever im not going to sell them to you, so he went over to the next register and he sold them. I wasent there too long after to have the guy come back and tell me his sons brake line exploded after he jammed on the pedal cause some *** pulled out in front ( im not saying it did happen, but i was waiting for him to say that to me)

[Kat]

the walbro unit wouldn't fit with the stock piece that was at the bottom of the assembly, which is why the kit came with zip ties (now replaced with metal hose clamps) The pump itself is cradled in that "C" shape and secured to it while the rubber hose goes straight up to the feed line.

Hrmm I dont remember having a problem installing the Walboro pump in the few cars that I've done with the clip down at the bottom. thats odd ya had a problem with that.

[Teds89IROC]

Hrmm I dont remember having a problem installing the Walboro pump in the few cars that I've done with the clip down at the bottom. thats odd ya had a problem with that.

yea I dunno, unless some previous owner used a different pump or something :shrug:

[JL8Jeff]

I know my old 86-88 Toyota 4Runners had an access panel under the passenger side rear seat floor. It was just sheetmetal bolts/screws holding the panel in place with weatherstripping to seal out water and vapors. The tank sending unit/fuel pump was accessed through that. I don't think there is anything wrong with the access panel, it's just the method used to create the access. Gas isn't dangerous, gas vapors are. It's good to see you found the problem.

[BonzoHansen]

I know my old 86-88 Toyota 4Runners had an access panel under the passenger side rear seat floor. It was just sheetmetal bolts/screws holding the panel in place with weatherstripping to seal out water and vapors. The tank sending unit/fuel pump was accessed through that. I don't think there is anything wrong with the access panel, it's just the method used to create the access. Gas isn't dangerous, gas vapors are. It's good to see you found the problem.

Floor pans are a bigger part of the structure in a uni-body car. I have no idea how much stress is involved at that spot, if any. The example shown of the damaged one appers to be rotted so maybe that is not a good example. But I don't think it is a big deal either. I'd still do an access if I had a car like that. Maybe if the tank was out one could tack a frame around the hole to strengthen it.

[Tru2Chevy]

Floor pans are a bigger part of the structure in a uni-body car. I have no idea how much stress is involved at that spot, if any. The example shown of the damaged one appers to be rotted so maybe that is not a good example. But I don't think it is a big deal either. I'd still do an access if I had a car like that. Maybe if the tank was out one could tack a frame around the hole to strengthen it.

That's what many on TGO were saying. In order to do the access panel *right* you should drop the tank, make your cuts, build/install a real door with hinges or whatever, then convert to AN fittings for safety.

- Justin

[BonzoHansen]

That's what many on TGO were saying. In order to do the access panel *right* you should drop the tank, make your cuts, build/install a real door with hinges or whatever, then convert to AN fittings for safety.

- JustinThat is what I would do.

[WildBillyT]

yeah you shouldnt have problem wiht the fittings, it is only with high high pressure and sudden increase in pressure is when they'd have a problem. I used to have people come in and buy them when I worked at advance, I told them not to use them , but noone wants to listen to the guy thats been behind the counter for 2 years. I had one guy come in and say, yeah im fixing the brake lines on my sons car, what size compression fittings do I ned for his car. I told him not to use them and he said and I quote: well Im in the pipe fitters union, so I know what im doing and what they're used for, and they will work. I said whatever im not going to sell them to you, so he went over to the next register and he sold them. I wasent there too long after to have the guy come back and tell me his sons brake line exploded after he jammed on the pedal cause some *** pulled out in front ( im not saying it did happen, but i was waiting for him to say that to me)

It is illegal to sell or install compression fittings for brake lines. You were smart to deny them to him. Your co-worker is lucky that the guys son didn't hurt or kill himself or someone else or your store would be in very deep ****.

Are you serious!!?? wow, yeah talk abotu cheap, its like those AFR heads, great heads but come wiht cheap rocker studs. stil, a clamp should help holding that better then some plastic zip tie.

FYI Energy Suspension gave me zip ties with my clamshell poly motor mounts, to zip tie them together. Yeah, I welded them shut. :shock:



Did you guys remember to square off the tubing after you cut it? A tubing cutter will leave radiused edges that will hinder flow.

[its Jeanne-Marie]

we actually cut them with a small hand-held hack saw. we filed any rough edges and made everything smooth before we put the fittings on.

- Ted

[Teds89IROC]

Here's the hole and fittings:

http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/30272/2023837430081415360S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2023837430081415360YZkKCD)

There is still a good lip around the perimeter so it still is very rigid. I put touch up paint on any bare metal to avoid rust and wednesday I will be able to seal it off with some sealer, a metal panel, and self tapping machine screws. Using the screws around the perimeter of the panel will be more than enough to "keep things together" as cutting this little section out didn't cause any flexing or distortion. I'll post pics of it all sealed up when I get it done.

[GP99GT]

i'd run it before you go and seal it up and make sure nothing leaks

[Teds89IROC]

yup. Before me and Alex took it for a ride Saturday night we checked it all over (filter and fittings too) with it running and I took the car today to get gas and a little 15 minute ride and everything is still fine. 8-)

[426 Wedge]

This is a little off topic but related. That looks like a pretty big piece of sheet metal you cut out. Maybe 5 or 10% or more of the total area. This might be a stupid point, but, will the trunk area be stucturally weak and have more tendancy to twist or buckle now that there is a BIG HOLE there? Maybe that's why GM decieded not to put a access panel there. FWIW. Oh yea, one more thing. Do you think it would add to the rattling problem with these cars?? I'm a noob here and maybe this was discused in previous threads.

[Fast92RS]

This is a little off topic but related. That looks like a pretty big piece of sheet metal you cut out. Maybe 5 or 10% or more of the total area. This might be a stupid point, but, will the trunk area be stucturally weak and have more tendancy to twist or buckle now that there is a BIG HOLE there? Maybe that's why GM decieded not to put a access panel there. FWIW. Oh yea, one more thing. Do you think it would add to the rattling problem with these cars?? I'm a noob here and maybe this was discused in previous threads.

Yeah that all was discussed on TGO I posted a link prviously. Only time will tell if any structrual issues occur. it all could be a matter of how the car is driven and Im sure Subframe connectors probably will play a roll in the cars that have them with this kind of acces panel and with the cars that do not have sfc.

[Blacdout96]

I think in the long run it will become twisted, maybe not to the naked eye, but on a laser machine it would be found. You do have to remember that the shocks come up thru theback there, so pressure will be applied to that area, I think thats why they corrogated the sheetmetal to give it strength. Forces will always act over the whole body all the time while driving and yes even when sitting. so warpage will take place over tiem, adn somethign like this will increase the time it takes to warp. and it would rattle, god only knows where all my damn rattles coem from, but they said they're going to put wweather stripping to keep out crap and vapors, and to prevent it from rattling, but yeah, idk, fuel pumps in these cars are a ***** to replace.

[426 Wedge]

I would rather do it the right way or not at all. This includes all the suffering to do it right!! LOL

[Blacdout96]

I would rather do it the right way or not at all. This includes all the suffering to do it right!! LOL

Thats what I said, ill take the long route to ensure that I odnt have problems in the long run. if it came from the factory like that, keep it hat way.

[JL8Jeff]

I don't think it will cause any future strength problems. The real strength is actually in the ribbed area that goes outside that hole.

[426 Wedge]

I don't think it will cause any future strength problems. The real strength is actually in the ribbed area that goes outside that hole.


You got a big hole on the top (hatch) and now a 5-10+% hole on the bottom.
You now have a hole straight through the car.

[its Jeanne-Marie]

I don't think it will cause any future strength problems. The real strength is actually in the ribbed area that goes outside that hole.


exactly. and if you look to the right of where this hatch area is, there is more sheet metal structure underneath it. I would love to see someone take measurements of my car in 3 years and show me how this 10x7 hole caused my car to twist :roll:

Ted

[ar0ck]

Why is this topic still popping up. Its fixed it runs and it was done properly. This was not a hack job. We did our homework, took all the right steps.

:horse:

[nj96z28]

Wow. People really get their panties in a bunch over this. I posted in LS1tech.com about doing my traapdoor on my 96 vert and 2 guys went ballsitic on me. Posted here and nobody said a word lol. Anyway I chose trapdoor method because i dont have floorjacks or jackstands (just a set of oil change ramps lol) nor the money to pay a shop to do it . I did the cutout and install over a 2 day period and havent had any problems. i still have the trapdoor open as I havent decided what to do as far as sealing and the car gets driven like once a week seeing as how im unemployed. The vertible body has a support ridge beam welded in at the cabin side of the sheet metal so there will definately not be any buckling , its not liek im gonan be racing the thing around corners anyway. Oh well , to each tehir own when it comes to opinions.

[Fast92RS]

No matter what this is always going to be a controversial issue. Lets just move on from this issue before we get some real headbutting going.

[BonzoHansen]

Agreed, this is done.

It was not done by the book, legitimate safety concerns were aired, and the car is fixed and runs fine. Future readers can make up their own minds.