Is 2nd death of the muscle car upon us?

[LS1Hawk]

How New MPG Standards
Could Crimp Your Ride

Wall Street Journal - 12/3/07

The vehicles Americans drive got steadily bigger, faster and less fuel efficient for more than two decades, thanks to cheap oil and Washington's hands-off approach to regulation. If Congress passes the energy bill it is now considering, that trend would be jammed into reverse.

The deal brokered by top Democrats late Friday to boost average new vehicle fuel economy to 35 miles per gallon by 2020 means that American cars will get smaller, and possibly more expensive....

Emphasis on 0 to 60 performance, big engines and large horsepower numbers will decrease. The balance will tilt toward improving mileage .... Powerful sports cars like Ford's popular Mustang could become endangered, economic-forecasting firm Global Insight says, though exactly how auto makers will recalibrate their product mix remained unclear.

Full Article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119664430582211229.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

I believe NJ already passed or is considering a bill similar to this? It definitely sucks though. But the performance hybrids I think show promise, plus aerodynamics and lightweight materials like carbon fiber will help us to allow a combo of mileage and performance. At least that is my hope.

[Knipps]

The deal brokered by top Democrats late Friday to boost average new vehicle fuel economy to 35 miles per gallon by 2020 means that American cars will get smaller, and possibly more expensive...

so we're going to make them more efficient but also make it harder to afford
aka the less efficient vehicles will be on the road longer :shrug:

[NJSPEEDER]

505 hp Z06 is rated at 29mpg highway(which is the base the standard is applied to). i don't see a new average MPG standard in 12 years bothering the industry too much.
it is also an average across all new vehicles sold, not every new vehicle. so for every two 38mpg aveos GM sells they can sell a Z06 and still meet the standard :D

[NumberTwo]

Im sure there will be some associated tax at purchare or registration time for vehicles that dont meet the requirements. IIRC the Father in law paid a 5K "Gas Guzzler" tax or some BS on his 07 Denali when he bought it a few months ago.

[AliWantsNss]

Im sure there will be some associated tax at purchare or registration time for vehicles that dont meet the requirements. IIRC the Father in law paid a 5K "Gas Guzzler" tax or some BS on his 07 Denali when he bought it a few months ago.
In NJ the Denali does not get that much of a gas guzzler tax from the state. It is .025% for vehicles that fail to get an avg MPG of 19.

[BonzoHansen]

To be quite honest, the average car has too much power, tires that are too wide (rolling resistence) and too much weight. Cut them all a bit and you are getting close. With current transmissions and engine controls we are almost there.

Hell, with modern torque manangement they only have 400hp at WOT anyway. It is nothing like 400hp of the old days. The average soccer mom could no way handle it.

And too many people drive vehicles that are too big (suvs, etc.).

IMO if you really want to push up mileage, CAFE shoud be abolished and replaced with a gas tax or something. I think the dems are repeating the sins of the past instead of recognizing it's previous failure.

[NightRydaSS]

To be quite honest, the average car has too much power, tires that are too wide (rolling resistence) and too much weight. Cut them all a bit and you are getting close. With current transmissions and engine controls we are almost there.

Hell, with modern torque manangement they only have 400hp at WOT anyway. It is nothing like 400hp of the old days. The average soccer mom could no way handle it.

And too many people drive vehicles that are too big (suvs, etc.).

IMO if you really want to push up mileage, CAFE shoud be abolished and replaced with a gas tax or something. I think the dems are repeating the sins of the past instead of recognizing it's previous failure.


u kno, i was just think the same thing a few days ago. i was wondering if "old school" HP was/is the same as "new school"? i mean there are A LOT of cars w/ 350+HP out now, and they seem very "domesticated". Like BMW 4 door cars, Benz's, ect... You also see a lot of mid 40 early 50 "divorce" women driving them and some men. Ppl who you can look at and tell they never owned or even beeen in a sports car before. To me there was no way they could handle the power if it were "true" HP.

[SteveR]

In NJ the Denali does not get that much of a gas guzzler tax from the state. It is .025% for vehicles that fail to get an avg MPG of 19.

Theres a $1000 gas guzzler tax on the Shelby GT Mustang that gets 24mpg. WTF is that about.

[NightRydaSS]

besides, you can't sell what ppl dont want. The market drives production, why do you think there has been a jump in sport cars over the last decade and a half. Every manufacture has some sort of sports car now (Honda S2000???). The comes from a manufacture who was/is known for L.E.V and U.L.E.V cars. BMW has the lower end 3 series with a TT 300HP 335i, Mercedes jumped over the mountain with thier AMG cars. GM's not dumb, they squeezed out the Cobalt w/ a S/C on it. the Esclade has a 6.2L in it...CTS-V anyone??? Grandpop and grandma will NEVER miss the early bird special now.

They made these cars b/c that is what ppl want. i think that is what makes America, "America". Big SUV's, Lifted Pick-ups, and loud / crazy fast sports cars.

Now true, if they stop producing these cars ppl will have no choice but to buy them, but, don't forget about the aftermarket performance. Ppl will soop these things up as much as they can (look at ricers, 300HP Civic???). Which in turn will bring us right back to where we r now.

i dunno, politicians need to stop blowing their load every 2 seconds on every issue.

[BonzoHansen]

besides, you can't sell what ppl dont want. The market drives productionThat is exactly why CAFE should die. Been there, done that, failed. If gas cost more then the market would demand change.

[NumberTwo]

In NJ the Denali does not get that much of a gas guzzler tax from the state. It is .025% for vehicles that fail to get an avg MPG of 19.
Yeah, I was wrong. Dont know what made me think of the 5K price tag. Its .4% on cars that dont get 19 MPG or better, or cars that sell for 45K or more. He falls into both categories lol

[NJSPEEDER]

Theres a $1000 gas guzzler tax on the Shelby GT Mustang that gets 24mpg. WTF is that about.

there is a sliding scale for gas guzzler taxes on anything under 26mpg highway i believe. the worse the mileage the higher the percentage. the only saving grace of this is that it tends to charge those who can afford mega yacht yuppie SUV's and leave is common citizens alone. finally, a tax being paid by those who can afford it :nod:

[LS1Hawk]

SUVs don't get a gas guzzler tax because they're classified as "light trucks." Which is total bs, because an auto Vette or GTO gets much better mpg, but they get slapped with the tax.

[Mike]

by the time that goes into effect all the gm high-performance v8 cars will have displacement on demand and get good enough gas mileage

[NightRydaSS]

That is exactly why CAFE should die. Been there, done that, failed. If gas cost more then the market would demand change.

what is CAFE??

SUVs don't get a gas guzzler tax because they're classified as "light trucks." Which is total bs, because an auto Vette or GTO gets much better mpg, but they get slapped with the tax.

More reason to drive a stick biotch!!!

[qwikz28]

the SUV thing is out of control. i see old ladys driving V8 SUVs and i'm making due towing with my Vue. if you need the room, get a minivan. i felt the horror watching a lady take a year to get into a spot with a expedition and wouldn't let anyone pass. i wanted to poke myself in the eye

[SteveR]

SUVs don't get a gas guzzler tax because they're classified as "light trucks." Which is total bs, because an auto Vette or GTO gets much better mpg, but they get slapped with the tax.

Yup, I just checked all the Fords and only the Mustang has the tax, which is insane considering a base GT gets 22mpg and has a $1000 gas guzzler tax, and an F-150 crew cab gets 16mpg and is exempt. Oh, and all trucks larger than an F-150, all vans, and all 'commercial trucks' don't even require any type of fuel efficiency rating what so ever. BS.

[sdm1234]

Yup, I just checked all the Fords and only the Mustang has the tax, which is insane considering a base GT gets 22mpg and has a $1000 gas guzzler tax, and an F-150 crew cab gets 16mpg and is exempt. Oh, and all trucks larger than an F-150, all vans, and all 'commercial trucks' don't even require any type of fuel efficiency rating what so ever. BS.

The F150 doesn't even get 16mpg. It's more like 10-12. And you gotta love those turbo diesel trucks... lol

And for this specific average MPG in 2020, people either dont understand or are completely taking it out of perspective. It's only for the new '20 cars (that was wierd to type lol). I still drive my '78 6.6L TA around which gets 11mpg, and this has lasted 30 yrs so far! We have also have a perfectly good '65 Mustang we run around occasionally. That's 43 yrs old! With this new MPG thing going down, it'll only bring back the muscle cars. You just wait... It will be the return of the pony cars, due to restoration! The way I see it, people will bring the older cars back to life. Cheap, quality cars, cheap parts, cheap HP! Long live the F-Body!

[WildBillyT]

Everybody go ahead and stab me for saying this, but I think it's time for the auto manufacturers to quit it with the new age HP wars and come out with a car something that is cheap, ~250hp, and gets 45+ mpg reliably. Right now I don't care about the power of my daily driver, (hell, I don't think I break 3000RPM going to work) I'd rather it was a lot cheaper to operate. That's where I think the buyers will flock to, given the current oil prices.

Then the aftermarket can be responsible for coming out with hot parts to get pleasure vehicle power up, etc which will help boost that industry.

[bad64chevelle]

And too many people drive vehicles that are too big (suvs, etc.).
HmmmmI guess I fall into that category.

Im proud to say that nothing I own gets over 12MPG...:rolleyes:

[Knipps]

Everybody go ahead and stab me for saying this, but I think it's time for the auto manufacturers to quit it with the new age HP wars and come out with a car something that is cheap, ~250hp, and gets 45+ mpg reliably. Right now I don't care about the power of my daily driver, (hell, I don't think I break 3000RPM going to work) I'd rather it was a lot cheaper to operate. That's where I think the buyers will flock to, given the current oil prices.

Then the aftermarket can be responsible for coming out with hot parts to get pleasure vehicle power up, etc which will help boost that industry.

why stab you? i agree. there's no need for it
but then again, there's also the group that uses their toy as a DD

HmmmmI guess I fall into that category.

Im proud to say that nothing I own gets over 12MPG...:rolleyes:

i just wanted to say you have the longest sig ever:lol:

[BonzoHansen]

Everybody go ahead and stab me for saying this, but I think it's time for the auto manufacturers to quit it with the new age HP wars and come out with a car something that is cheap, ~250hp, and gets 45+ mpg reliably. Right now I don't care about the power of my daily driver, (hell, I don't think I break 3000RPM going to work) I'd rather it was a lot cheaper to operate. That's where I think the buyers will flock to, given the current oil prices.

Then the aftermarket can be responsible for coming out with hot parts to get pleasure vehicle power up, etc which will help boost that industry.

Nope, I agree 100% Already said it.

CAFE = corporate average fuel economy. Google it. It is what we are talking about.

[Iroc-z86]

I agree that the big trucks not getting taxed is bs and how they dont have any pollution control on them. IE diesels do not have any emissions testing, i think safety but thats it.

I think it will be possible to have a decently quick car with good mpgs. my grand prix has a 3.8 v6 and gets avg 25 mpg with city and highway. id say thats really good for such a big car.

[NightRydaSS]

Nope, I agree 100% Already said it.

CAFE = corporate average fuel economy. Google it. It is what we are talking about.

i spend too much time Googling my Yahoo as it is; I'd rather just get the answer. :rofl:

[jims69camaro]

it doesn't matter. the end happened already, and the manufacturers bounced back and were able, through R&D, to develop true brute force with kind fuel economy. if they raise the bar, i don't think the corporations are going to let it get in the way. as stated, V8s are going to have DoD, so they'll conform to the expectations, anyway.

moot question.

[SteveR]

The F150 doesn't even get 16mpg. It's more like 10-12. And you gotta love those turbo diesel trucks... lol

And for this specific average MPG in 2020, people either dont understand or are completely taking it out of perspective. It's only for the new '20 cars (that was wierd to type lol). I still drive my '78 6.6L TA around which gets 11mpg, and this has lasted 30 yrs so far! We have also have a perfectly good '65 Mustang we run around occasionally. That's 43 yrs old! With this new MPG thing going down, it'll only bring back the muscle cars. You just wait... It will be the return of the pony cars, due to restoration! The way I see it, people will bring the older cars back to life. Cheap, quality cars, cheap parts, cheap HP! Long live the F-Body!

With the new testing standards, they say that the 08 F-150 crew cab gets a MAX of 16mpg highway :lol: You're right though, with normal driving conditions its more like 12mpg.

And the new 6.4L twin turbo diesels are sick. With a computer controlled variable pitch primary turbo, you get a balance of raw power, and good fuel economy. There are no fuel efficiency ratings on the F-250s/F-350s, but I'm sure the diesel gets wayyy better gas mileage than the gas motors. I had a guy come in and trade in an 02 F-250 crew cab gas motor truck and he said it got 11mpg. The 6.4L is too new to have really accurate mpg numbers on them yet, but they're saying they should be around 20mpg under normal driving conditions. Compare that to a gas motor in the same truck and not only does the diesel motor pay for itself, but even negates the higher diesel costs over gas. Plus they last forever.

And I think you're right about the older cars. With the rising costs of new cars and slipping gas mileage ratings and taxes and such, a good older car or truck is another option to look at. Heck, I just bought an '87 F-250 diesel for the winter for $650 and the guy said just driving it around town he gets 18mpg, and thats without a turbo. I talked with some people at Banks and Hypermax about adding a turbo kit, exhaust, and intercooler and they both said the mpg should go up to around 25mpg. Not too bad for a giant 20 year old truck.

[BigAls87Z28]

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/blog/uploaded_images/chevy-volt-picture-2-757129.jpg

A car like the Chevy Volt and other Plug In Hyrbids liek that will probably the next wave of gas saving cars. Going 50-100 miles without running on a drop of gas is the wave of the future. And if you need to, the engine is only to recharge the batteries, not to power the vehicle. In this case, the engine runs at idle, and consumes much less gasoline, acting like a generator on board.

[Knipps]

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/blog/uploaded_images/chevy-volt-picture-2-757129.jpg

A car like the Chevy Volt and other Plug In Hyrbids liek that will probably the next wave of gas saving cars. Going 50-100 miles without running on a drop of gas is the wave of the future. And if you need to, the engine is only to recharge the batteries, not to power the vehicle. In this case, the engine runs at idle, and consumes much less gasoline, acting like a generator on board.

:idea:
but why? part of the whole global warming idea is that we burn a ton of fossil fuels to create electricity as well... unless they're going to tackle that too

[Predator86]

well were also the fatest country in the world so lets kill 2 birds with one stone and all buy bicycles:nod:

[BonzoHansen]

:idea:
but why? part of the whole global warming idea is that we burn a ton of fossil fuels to create electricity as well... unless they're going to tackle that tooSsshhhh..don't tell the greenies they are full of crap....


To me, improving MPG is more about energy indepednce then global warming...since I don't buy into manmade gw as much as I do the trouble with sand scum...

[WildBillyT]

:idea:
but why? part of the whole global warming idea is that we burn a ton of fossil fuels to create electricity as well... unless they're going to tackle that too

Not to mention that the conversion of energy from one form to another is inherently lossy.

[Knipps]

well were also the fatest country in the world so lets kill 2 birds with one stone and all buy bicycles:nod:

i feel like the hippie here but maybe it's my edjamucayshun talking

walking/biking is worse.. it takes so much energy to process the food we eat it's better to drive a mile to the store than to consume enough calories for the walk

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

i feel like the hippie here but maybe it's my edjamucayshun talking

walking/biking is worse.. it takes so much energy to process the food we eat it's better to drive a mile to the store than to consume enough calories for the walk
Do you have the stats from that? I remember reading that from here before, but I want to cite it for my paper.

[Knipps]

Do you have the stats from that? I remember reading that from here before, but I want to cite it for my paper.

i probably said it then too :lol:
i'll look for it

[BonzoHansen]

i feel like the hippie here but maybe it's my edjamucayshun talking

walking/biking is worse.. it takes so much energy to process the food we eat it's better to drive a mile to the store than to consume enough calories for the walk

The flaw in that theory is we only eat enough to live....:lol:

[Knipps]

all done.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2195538.ece
discussed by hippies here: http://forums.treehugger.com/viewtopic.php?t=1206

[Dark_Knight7096]

How New MPG Standards
Could Crimp Your Ride

The deal brokered by top Democrats



There's your answer.


Can i get a poll to see what they all drive?

[SteveR]

well were also the fatest country in the world so lets kill 2 birds with one stone and all buy bicycles:nod:

If Americans weren't so lazy that might be a good idea. A few months ago Paris setup bike rental stands all over the city to cut down on cars and mopeds and it has taken off and is doing better than they expected. Other cities all over Europe are now looking into doing the same thing. Not a bad idea.

[WildBillyT]

If Americans weren't so lazy that might be a good idea. A few months ago Paris setup bike rental stands all over the city to cut down on cars and mopeds and it has taken off and is doing better than they expected. Other cities all over Europe are now looking into doing the same thing. Not a bad idea.

For many (most?) of us, that's not an option. I can't see riding a bike as far as some of us do to work every day. Just not feasible. In the cities, however, it makes perfect sense.

[Knipps]

If Americans weren't so lazy that might be a good idea. A few months ago Paris setup bike rental stands all over the city to cut down on cars and mopeds and it has taken off and is doing better than they expected. Other cities all over Europe are now looking into doing the same thing. Not a bad idea.

boston has it, and has for a while.
seems to be a good idea except for the idiots that don't lock it up properly and abandon it after the wheels get ripped off :lol:

[SteveR]

For many (most?) of us, that's not an option. I can't see riding a bike as far as some of us do to work every day. Just not feasible. In the cities, however, it makes perfect sense.

yea, I meant for cities its a good idea. For the rest of us, Im not riding a bike 50 miles each way lol especialy in crappy weather.

[69BirdX]

CAFE failed because it has been unchanged for the last 16 years. If it was revised each year as it was suppose to be then there would be no problems. It acctuly dropped down a mpg making it worse then before.....Im just finishing up writing a 10 page essay on this for my english class ugh
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