THE PLANE TOOK OFF

[GP99GT]

all of you naysayers can eat me

[Knipps]

you're late.
already been posted

[GP99GT]

i dont give a **** this is my personal thread for all the ****suckers that said it wouldnt happen

[ar0ck]

hahah this is glorious!

[SteveR]

now, what if the treadmill was at a 5% incline and on Random Resistance and inside a temperature controlled environment at precisely 2600' above sea level...

[79CamaroDiva]

now, what if the treadmill was at a 5% incline and on Random Resistance and inside a temperature controlled environment at precisely 2600' above sea level...

the world would stop turning and we would all die.

[Teds89IROC]

booyah!

[qwikz28]

matt i dont think anyone disagreed with you anymore

[V]

now, what if the treadmill was at a 5% incline and on Random Resistance and inside a temperature controlled environment at precisely 2600' above sea level...


..well, the dinosaurs would still be able to walk on the 5% slantness because of their curved feet

[JL8Jeff]

They didn't replicate the myth properly though. They accelerated the plane suddenly and the myth said it was moving the same speed as the conveyor. So a conveyor moving 25 mph and a plane moving 25mph will not take off at 25 mph! :wink:

[Teds89IROC]

They didn't replicate the myth properly though. They accelerated the plane suddenly and the myth said it was moving the same speed as the conveyor. So a conveyor moving 25 mph and a plane moving 25mph will not take off at 25 mph! :wink:

here it goes again... :lol:

[ar0ck]

Found this on a random image search:

http://marklaflamme.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/903.jpg

[WayFast84]

wouldn't it be the same thing as a plane taking off of a aircraft carrier if the carrier was moving one way and the plane flying the other?

[bubba428]

wouldn't it be the same thing as a plane taking off of a aircraft carrier if the carrier was moving one way and the plane flying the other?

the only problem with that is the jets don't take of under they're own power, they are catapulted of the deck, THEN go full throttle.

[SteveR]

what if the earth stopped rotating and the treadmill ran on solar power and a lunar eclipse was blocking my view of uranus

[V]

what if the earth stopped rotating and the treadmill ran on solar power and a lunar eclipse was blocking my view of uranus


...at mt next party, im drinking with you all night, and having a video cam ready... i can only imagine what else you may come up with

[bubba428]

you should put him in a room by him self with random objects, and charge admission to get into an adjacent room with audio and the trick window so he can't see you. Then with a speaker system tell him your god.

[Knipps]

...at mt next party, im drinking with you all night, and having a video cam ready... i can only imagine what else you may come up with

you don't really have to follow him around all night, just wait til he starts to go outside and do laps :rofl:

[NJSPEEDER]

you should put him in a room by him self with random objects, and charge admission to get into an adjacent room with audio and the trick window so he can't see you. Then with a speaker system tell him your god.

if you put steve in a room he just runs into the walls head first over and over. yeah, it is funny at first, but then it just turns sad when you realize that one day our tax dollars will be paying for private nursing care to keep him from hurting himself.

[bubba428]

HAHAHA seem to me I might have to make the trek to north this summer for one of these occasions

[79CamaroDiva]

...at mt next party, im drinking with you all night, and having a video cam ready... i can only imagine what else you may come up with

you should put him in a room by him self with random objects, and charge admission to get into an adjacent room with audio and the trick window so he can't see you. Then with a speaker system tell him your god.

you don't really have to follow him around all night, just wait til he starts to go outside and do laps :rofl:

if you put steve in a room he just runs into the walls head first over and over. yeah, it is funny at first, but then it just turns sad when you realize that one day our tax dollars will be paying for private nursing care to keep him from hurting himself.



.... welcome to my hell....


:flower:

[bubba428]

.... welcome to my hell....


:flower:

HAHAHAHAHA thats funny as hell :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[79CamaroDiva]

btw... speaking of 'you never know what hes gonna do or say next'... this is how he just walked in....

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j274/79CamaroDiva/osama.jpg


:banghead:

[Mike]

the only problem with that is the jets don't take of under they're own power, they are catapulted of the deck, THEN go full throttle.

they are full throttle as they are catapaulted

[Jersey_TA]

they are full throttle as they are catapaulted

Beat me to it.

[WildBillyT]

They didn't replicate the myth properly though. They accelerated the plane suddenly and the myth said it was moving the same speed as the conveyor. So a conveyor moving 25 mph and a plane moving 25mph will not take off at 25 mph! :wink:

But if the plane is traveling at 88mph it should take off through time to help Marty protect Doc Brown from a Libyan assasination.

[ar0ck]

But if the plane is traveling at 88mph it should take off through time to help Marty protect Doc Brown from a Libyan assasination.

Next time don't tell people your going to build them a bomb, and you won't have that problem. Or just wait for a Mr. Fusion.

[Knipps]

On again, NOW on discovery channel

[jims69camaro]

the part i get stuck on is that the original problem states that the conveyor moves at the speed of the wheels. since the wheels are only holding the plane up while it accelerates to the speed necessary to take off, and there is no power being applied to the wheels like a car, then why would the conveyor be moving at all?

if, instead, we assume that the conveyor would move at the speed of the plane as it accelerates towards take off speed, then that's different, and i don't see the plane generating enough lift to take off. being on the discovery channel has nothing to do with it, they can be wrong just as any of us could. and a sudden burst of speed would only accelerate the conveyor, so it would balance itself out and not take off.

[Knipps]

the air still moves under/over the wings, generating lift & the plane takes off.

[jims69camaro]

how does the air move under/over the wings if the plane is not moving? it's stationary, because the wheels are moving at the speed of the conveyor... the plane doesn't move forward because the wheels are on the conveyor, which is matching any speed relayed to the wheels (which i assume to be zero), but even if some speed where relayed to the wheels it would be negated by the conveyor moving at the speed of the wheels.

[GP99GT]

dude....give up

you just dont get it

[98tadriver]

Beat me to it.

likewise!

[jims69camaro]

dude....give up

you just dont get it

well, it would seem that you have a thorough understanding - so, please, enlighten me.

[69BirdX]

i got an rc plane.......some one provide the tread mill we can do it in my back yard

[GP99GT]

well, it would seem that you have a thorough understanding - so, please, enlighten me.

i enlightened everyone a thousand times over in the original thread...and mythbusters did also

[1972LT1]

how does the air move under/over the wings if the plane is not moving? it's stationary, because the wheels are moving at the speed of the conveyor... the plane doesn't move forward because the wheels are on the conveyor, which is matching any speed relayed to the wheels (which i assume to be zero), but even if some speed where relayed to the wheels it would be negated by the conveyor moving at the speed of the wheels.

I'm with you brother...I've tried to explain this on other boards too . No one seems to understand that the conveyor is moving backward at the same speed that the wheels are moving forward. So if the plane is not moving forward, there is no air over the wing and therefore no lift.

[Knipps]

yes because the propellers are just thrown on there, there's no science to them at all.. they don't cause any movement of air :rolleyes:

[GP99GT]

watch the mythbusters episode and youll understand it....and if you still dont get it....then im sorry

[jims69camaro]

watch the mythbusters episode and youll understand it....and if you still dont get it....then im sorry

i'll look for that.

btw, i gave you an opportunity to say/do something positive. fail.

[firehawk1120]

i agree with the people argueing that it should NOT take off. The problem I have with the mythbusters show is the tarp that they put under the plane allows the wheels to maintain contact with the ground and allowing the plane to travel at a different speed then the tarp.

If you are on a treadmill running at 1 mph do you go anywhere??? NO. BUT, if you are on the treadmill and it's going at 1 mph and you start running faster what happens you run into the bar in front of you until you slow down. SO, if the ground was actually moving at the same speed as the plane trying to move forward the plane should remain stationary, IT DIDN'T it was moving forward proving the speed of the plane was greater then that of the tarp being pulled by the car.

In conclusion those people are doing an incorrect test and should know better.

[GP99GT]

you'd all be right if the plane was driven through its wheels, like a car, or like a persons legs on the treadmill

but since the planes engines are pushing off the air, not the ground, whats underneath it has little to no effect on takeoff (so long as its flat ground of course)

[V]

wheel speed is irrelevant. As the propellers PULL the plane forward(that kinda what propellers do), the plane will move forward in "space". yes wheels will accelerate forward and tread mill will then move backwards cancelling "wheelspeed" however plane will STILL be pulled forward because movement action is based on the air, not ground. The wheels and tread mill will obviously increase in speed too BUT that wheelspeed will increase rapidly and exponentionally. All in all the tread mill would need to be the length of a runway, it would just be spinning the wheels at an incredible rate of speed until the plane has enough lift to break contact with the ground.

[sweetbmxrider]

the plane has no relation to the ground. its how they work. saying that the plane is still contacting the ground through the tarp has no affect on the plane. i would give the example of removing a dinner table cloth from under a set table....but i feel it will stir up more controversy.

the propeller is pushing/pulling the air in front of it. that is where the force is being applied. even though the plane isn't moving in relation to the ground, its moving in relation to the tarp. the tarp is moving in relation to the ground. i dono. if you over think the subject, you will get frustrated.

Edit: Oh that is a much better explanation SmokingSS. if you read mine, you will probably become dumber...

[Savage_Messiah]

**** THE PLANE

[V]

DE PLANE BOSS, DE PLANE

fixed

[firehawk1120]

I'd like to see a plane suspended from the ground dropped like missle from a fighter jet and see if the thing automatically started going forward or if it dropped straight down first then that would prove you don't need to be moving to take off.

If the wheels don't need to move to take off then why do planes need runways shouldn't they be able to just launch from a standing position????

Still say it's not possible if the planes not in motion to take off.

[GP99GT]

the plane IS in motion! holy ****

its not just taking off from a standstill...you guys fail

im done with this thread, watch the show, youll understand

[Knipps]

I'd like to see a plane suspended from the ground dropped like missle from a fighter jet and see if the thing automatically started going forward or if it dropped straight down first then that would prove you don't need to be moving to take off.

If the wheels don't need to move to take off then why do planes need runways shouldn't they be able to just launch from a standing position????

Still say it's not possible if the planes not in motion to take off.

friction. it's a lot easier to roll than to get the plane to speed standing still.
you can't just get in a car and do 60. it takes acceleration

[sweetbmxrider]

you need runways to land...

[firehawk1120]

saw the show still think they are wrong

[WildBillyT]

saw the show still think they are wrong

Wouldn't be the first time...

[Savage_Messiah]

oh my ****ing god!

**** THE ****ING PLANE!!!

[bubba428]

oh my ****ing god!

**** THE ****ING PLANE!!!

What he said.....

I did an aeronautics research project in 6th grade, Its HIGHLY amusing to see that almost none of you understand the science behind wing sections, thrust and lift.

[V]

lemme try to explain it like this...

nothing ground related can keep the plane from moving.(other than being tied down etc)
think of the wheels as idler pullies for the sake of conversation, or even ball bearings... they just spin/roll and nothing else. The plane will still move forward regardless, and when it does, it will build lift and eventually take off. it will NOT take off from a stationary position, thats whats confusing most of you. but the point is, the "conveyor belt" CAN'T keep the plane from moving forward.

[twozs]

a wing needs a certain amount of air flow over it to create LIFT

[bubba428]

a wing needs a certain amount of air flow over it to create LIFT

Yes and no....your correct, but thats only half the reasons. The profile, AOA, and air speed are equal contributors. BUT the profile of a wing determines how much lift can be created, and the determines how that is distributed accost a wing section. If you have a wing thats profiled like a long teardrop and is fully symmetrical, it will be efficient at high velocity and allow lift to be achieved either upside down or right side up, making that Ideal for high speed fighters. A fully symmetrical tear drop profile that is more stout shaped, will allow for max lift at a lower velocity and create lift any orientation, making it ideal for prop engine stunt planes. An in betwine profile would be used for a pylon racer.

Asymmetrical wing sections create immense amounts of lift but only when they are right side up. These type of wings are used for Cargo, and ultra lights. Now the Mythbusters used an ultra light which has a stout wing section and is asymmetrical creating sufficient lift at very low speed.

AOA is angle of attack. that has more to do with props that wings but its the same principles at work.

[V]

you are ALL missing the point, the shape of the wing has nothing to do with it. Lift will come as the plane moves forward.....

and the plane will move forward because NOTHING wheel related can hold it.

*sigh*... lemme try another more simple explination...
you are stuck in a fast moving river... you kick you're feet and legs as fast as you can yet you get no where... but then you grab onto a branch/root hanging right above the water... you use both arms to pull your way up and along the branch upstream, no matter how much the stream speeds up an flows faster, you still can pull you way upstream with you arms(granted you're not a weakling) in this your legs are the planes wheels, usless, and your arms are the propellers, the branch is the air the propellers "grab"...

...let me know that this got through to at least 1 person....

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

you are ALL missing the point, the shape of the wing has nothing to do with it. Lift will come as the plane moves forward.....

and the plane will move forward because NOTHING wheel related can hold it.

*sigh*... lemme try another more simple explination...
you are stuck in a fast moving river... you kick you're feet and legs as fast as you can yet you get no where... but then you grab onto a branch/root hanging right above the water... you use both arms to pull your way up and along the branch upstream, no matter how much the stream speeds up an flows faster, you still can pull you way upstream with you arms(granted you're not a weakling) in this your legs are the planes wheels, usless, and your arms are the propellers, the branch is the air the propellers "grab"...

...let me know that this got through to at least 1 person....

You got through to at least one person. :lol:

At this point this is like politics, nobody is changing anyone else's mind.

[sweetbmxrider]

an even better example would be a sail boat moving against the current. if you don't get it after that, then you suck.

[bubba428]

you are ALL missing the point, the shape of the wing has nothing to do with it. Lift will come as the plane moves forward.....

and the plane will move forward because NOTHING wheel related can hold it.

*sigh*... lemme try another more simple explination...
you are stuck in a fast moving river... you kick you're feet and legs as fast as you can yet you get no where... but then you grab onto a branch/root hanging right above the water... you use both arms to pull your way up and along the branch upstream, no matter how much the stream speeds up an flows faster, you still can pull you way upstream with you arms(granted you're not a weakling) in this your legs are the planes wheels, usless, and your arms are the propellers, the branch is the air the propellers "grab"...

...let me know that this got through to at least 1 person....

I know exactly what you are saying, I've been into aeronautics for a long time...I'm was just saying that the shape of the wing determines a lot about lift not about if it would take off or not. Some body said air speed and I was saying thats only a small part...I'll think you kinda missed that

[firehawk1120]

then they are asking the question wrong

[Knipps]

The question is what it is.

[jims69camaro]

then they are asking the question wrong

i don't think that is so much true as that people are interpretting it wrong. if you misinterpret the problem there is no way you can arrive at the proper solution.

[bubba428]

i don't think that is so much true as that people are interpretting it wrong. if you misinterpret the problem there is no way you can arrive at the proper solution.

so basically it comes down to people have no freaking idea how a plane works and can not comprehend the fact that no mater how fast the conveyor moves the air is still not moving. being that a plane creates thrust against the air... this is what happens when certain people think about this ------->:drool:

[ar0ck]

This will solve the problem real quick...

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_Phalanx_CIWS_Firing_lg.jpg

Or how about this?

http://blog.800hightech.com/wp-content/uploads/laser-avenger-1.jpg

[GP99GT]

pauls explanation makes sense. read that

or yes, shoot the plane down.

oh wait, itll never take off, how silly of me!

[jims69camaro]

so basically it comes down to people have no freaking idea how a plane works and can not comprehend the fact that no mater how fast the conveyor moves the air is still not moving.

no.

but some are over-thinking it and bringing all types of irrelevent things into the argument. basically, what you have is a stationary object. no matter what kind of thrust is made by the propellers or the jet engines, if you prefer, there is no way a stationary object can achieve flight. it can't be done, no matter what type of aeronautics you bring into the equation, it all boils down to a stationary object (which is what you have, because the conveyor is negating forward movement) cannot take off.

it wouldn't matter if you had the most perfect wing proportions, the perfect teardrop that would be best suited to get the most lift, because the plane is not moving. it doesn't matter what engine you use to try to move the plane, because the conveyor is negating forward movement. while you can't stop the engine from achieving maximum thrust unless you cut off its air supply, it still doesn't matter because the plane is not moving forward. in order to achieve flight, air must pass over the wing. if the plane is not moving, then there is no wind passing over the wing.

now, i could sink to the level of the most obnoxious in this thread and start calling people stupid, and what-not, but i won't. what i want you to think about is not the wing shape, nor the amount of thrust the engine can make, nor if it's using propellers or a jet engine, nor what type of tire it's using... what you need to think about is that the conveyor is matching the speed of the plane's forward movement, which means the plane is not moving forward. other than the harrier jump-jets, i don't know if a plane in existance that can take off from a stand still, which is what you have here. tell me i got through to one person.

[Knipps]

http://txfx.net/2005/12/08/airplane-on-a-conveyor-belt/
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060303.html

:dancinglock:

[ar0ck]

pauls explanation makes sense. read that

or yes, shoot the plane down.

oh wait, itll never take off, how silly of me!

We can take care of it on the ground too.

This:
http://www.baseops.net/militarybooks/rangers6.jpg

+ This:
http://www.mainandcentral.org/home/mainand/public_html/Iranian%20C4.jpg

[BigAls87Z28]

People are confusing the fact that the convery belt is counteracting the speed of the WHEELS and not the speed of the PLANE.
Plane will move foward, as it develops more and more thrusts from its engines. The wheels and belt are meaningless.

[Savage_Messiah]

the conveyor is matching the speed of the plane's forward movement

No.

From what I undestand... plane wheels are free-rolling and not powered.

For example, put a car on the treadmill, and it will go nowhere, because the wheels power it and make it move.

In a plane... the wheels do not power it... they're basically just padding so the fuselage isn't sitting on the ground. So the wheels kinda don't do anything in that regard.

[V]

No.

From what I undestand... plane wheels are free-rolling and not powered.

For example, put a car on the treadmill, and it will go nowhere, because the wheels power it and make it move.

In a plane... the wheels do not power it... they're basically just padding so the fuselage isn't sitting on the ground. So the wheels kinda don't do anything in that regard.


wow, you typed something. I was completely expecting to see "F the Plane"

[jims69camaro]

so the plane continues to move forward regardless of how fast the conveyor belt runs?

that's the part i have a problem with. the OP states that the conveyor will go backward at the rate of speed the plane moves forward, in which case the wheels will be spinning at least twice as fast as the conveyor... but the plane will not move forward.

[BigAls87Z28]

The belt spins as fast as the wheels.

One of those links was pretty good. If you got onto a tredmill with roller blades, and were pulling on a rope that is attched to the wall in front of you, wouldnt you move foward? Eventually, the force foward of the thrust will overcome the backwards force of the belt tot he wheels.

Plane takes off due to the fact that the plane is moving foward, and thats what confuses people. The plane is moving foward due to the fact that the engines are producing thrust, not the wheels.

[Savage_Messiah]

lol fruit boots

[sweetbmxrider]

so the plane continues to move forward regardless of how fast the conveyor belt runs?

that's the part i have a problem with. the OP states that the conveyor will go backward at the rate of speed the plane moves forward, in which case the wheels will be spinning at least twice as fast as the conveyor... but the plane will not move forward.

until it overcomes the friction of the wheels...

[Firebird]

there is no power going to the wheels of an airplane, it used a propeller to pull it forward. so the moving treadmill has no effect on the plane

[jims69camaro]

until it overcomes the friction of the wheels...

and then takes off.

so the miniature plane on a treadmill failed. the ultralight on the tarp (not sure how true to a treadmill this was) took off. so it's at least plausible that the plane can take off. proved me wrong.

i am definitely intrigued by the physics involved here and i would like to investigate it further. unfortunately, i lack the resources to prove it true or false, and have to accept what happened on MythBusters.

[Brando56894]

i cant believe this thread is still going on..

[bubba428]

can some body just lock this god damn thread already?

[Knipps]

can some body just lock this god damn thread already?

you could have just let it die. but no, you bumped it up. well done.

[bubba428]

as long as its not locked SOMEBODY would have bumped it...