Engine Poll

[WildBillyT]

Somebody asked me what I was going to do engine-wise in the future. To be honest, I'm not really sure since it's years away. But just to spark discussion and see what you guys think, pick from the above. Chassis will be a '69 Camaro set up like a vintage Trans Am car, engine will be backed by a T56/9" rear.

[ar0ck]

427 Small Block, no need to add the weight of a big block when theres LSx engines in such large cube sizes that are a fraction of the weight, and still have awesome power potential. And it can all be set up just like original, carbed, minimal wiring.

[Tru2Chevy]

I vote 302, with modern heads / intake / cam. Should make for a real screamer.

- Justin

[BonzoHansen]

You appear to be building a street fighter type deal (ie not a drag car, etc). All aluminum gen III/IV motor. Buy for the weight savings, stay for the RPM.

[Rich189]

Really like anything else in life depends on your budget. But since your setting it up like a trans am car id stay with a all aluim small block. On a budget maybe a 402 ls2 either carbed or fi... if not maybe do a 427 or 454 using a war hawk or dart block

[BonzoHansen]

If budget matters, then what do you already own? In my case, I have nothing, so buying a complete pullout was cost effective.

[GP99GT]

ford 302 stroked to a 347







:lol:

[trashman01]

get a chevy 302

[WildBillyT]

If budget matters, then what do you already own? In my case, I have nothing, so buying a complete pullout was cost effective.

I own subframe motor mounts. Maybe a clutch pivot ball. LOL. I was planning on building my 454 parts into a 427, but a screaming 302 seems cooler for some reason. I do not have the budget for this especially since I don't even have a solid rolling chassis yet. But my company is having a really awesome year so far... :mrgreen:

[Ian]

my vote is for a BIG inch small block. the 302 seems like it would be really fun, but it takes a lot of RPM to get the most out of them. the big block would be great for cruising around, but its got a lot of weight. build the biggest small block you can afford and have fun!

[bubba428]

how about a 327 or 350 with heads, cam, headers in take and a decent carb. your not going to need monster HP for a trans am car but that'll still have plenty of umph to get around.

[IROCdan330]

I vote 302, with modern heads / intake / cam. Should make for a real screamer.

- Justin

Agreed...

[jims69camaro]

big inch small block. the parts are out there in quantity and quality like stock 350 stuff, so why not get what you want? set a budget and hit it, whether you go crate motor or build your own/have a shop build you one.

i've been sitting on my 402 for so long that it almost makes sense to sell it and get a crate motor for the kind of abuse i was going to give it.

[qwikz28]

we don't have enough info:

If it will be getting alot of mileage and or it will be a corner carver of sort, go for a gen III/IV and enjoy the perks of aluminum and fuel injection

the only carbed motors i have been in have been a cammed 327 (big jons chevelle) and my buddies stock zz4 in a chevelle. i wont offer input on the small block vs big block thing cause i am not familiar with big blocks. all i know is i don't care for them. too much power for me! i don't even use all i have on tap in my ls1!

[johnjzjz]

the best little motor for a SBC combo is by far a flat piston 3 5/8 stroke X 4.125 bore + just under 398 CU its a killer combo it revs like a 302 and has the Horsepower of a 427 with the torque of a small big block - that is of coarse with the right selected parts - get alloy 64cc heads BUT have who ever CNC the combustion chambers to like 68 CC by doing that you get the flow of a unshrouded valve set up ported head with out the cost and anyones head responds to this as its a selected machining operation -- you asked need more info if you take this advise i can and will help -- jz

[procamaroz28]

383 stroker with mean cam

[jims69camaro]

the best little motor for a SBC combo is by far a flat piston 3 5/8 stroke X 4.125 bore + just under 398 CU its a killer combo it revs like a 302 and has the Horsepower of a 427 with the torque of a small big block - that is of coarse with the right selected parts - get alloy 64cc heads BUT have who ever CNC the combustion chambers to like 68 CC by doing that you get the flow of a unshrouded valve set up ported head with out the cost and anyones head responds to this as its a selected machining operation -- you asked need more info if you take this advise i can and will help -- jz

hell, i'd like to know more about this motor... :drool:

[BonzoHansen]

the best little motor for a SBC combo is by far a flat piston 3 5/8 stroke X 4.125 bore + just under 398 CU its a killer combo it revs like a 302 and has the Horsepower of a 427 with the torque of a small big block - that is of coarse with the right selected parts - get alloy 64cc heads BUT have who ever CNC the combustion chambers to like 68 CC by doing that you get the flow of a unshrouded valve set up ported head with out the cost and anyones head responds to this as its a selected machining operation -- you asked need more info if you take this advise i can and will help -- jz

I've been advised of a similar setup for when the time comes. Must be an omen. Hmmm....

[DaSkinnyGuy]

LQ4 iron block its 364c.i. weighs 60lbs more than a LS2 aluminium block but can handle more power and is a great block if you want to boost it. can bolt up LS1,LS2,Ls6,L92 and i believe LS7 heads not sure about LS3 heads, car can be carberatued or EFI. The Lq4 block can be bored out to 414c.i max. many people turn these in 408 strokers. with the added 60lbs of the iron you can boost the car with out worryin about breakin it.

LQ4 carbed motor

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wdgaJU1ly2I

Here is an LQ4 iron block motor

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O9qt0pr2kE0

480hp with an LQ4 block for $3,775

http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild/116_0704_lq4_short_block/index.html

P.S. you can find a cheap LQ4 block for $800-$1,200 and build it up for around $4grand, not a bad deal, you save alot

[Mike]

i dont think ls7 heads fit on any of the other lsx blocks and since he didnt say anything about forced induction, i doubt he needs the extra weight.........

billy, what about a gen3 based 302....THAT would be fun
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533318&highlight=302

5.3 crank in a ls1 block

[BigAls87Z28]

LS7/L92 heads will fit on anything with a 4 inch bore in the Gen III/IV family, so the LQ4/9 and LS2 blocks will work. Car Craft did an awesome build using STOCK L92 heads that flow something evil, with a decent cam, making 500hp easy on pump gas, and for under 5 grand. This was also carb'ed...

377 would be a coo idea too, would rev higher and have a the 400's larger bore, similar to what John was talking about.

Of course, if you are gunna stick to the strict rules of Trans Am, in a 69...its gotta be 302. A Gen III 302 would be fun to build too, but realy...I would just spend the money on a high po Gen III/IV.
The LS2 comes carbed as a crate engine.

[Mike]

ls7 heads need a 4.125 bore, there are aftermarket ls7 style heads for a 4 inch bore, but not the oem heads

[JL8Jeff]

I'd go with a 383 small block. You get the extra tark of the longer stroke and none of the hassles of the big block like bad gas mileage.

[Mike]

yeah but, 383 is played out

[BigAls87Z28]

ls7 heads need a 4.125 bore, there are aftermarket ls7 style heads for a 4 inch bore, but not the oem heads

Hrm...the L92 heads they put on was deff a LQ4.
L92 and LS7 heads are very similar...LS7 gets different intake angle, and CNC ported, but flow numbers are very similar.

[NJ Torque]

302!

[Mike]

Hrm...the L92 heads they put on was deff a LQ4.
L92 and LS7 heads are very similar...LS7 gets different intake angle, and CNC ported, but flow numbers are very similar.

al im not arguing, i honestly didnt know so when you corrected me i did a search on ls1tech, several threads mentioned that 4.125 bore and that etp makes a ls7 head that fits on the 4inch

[Ian]

I'll say it again. BIG inch small block!

[1QWIKBIRD]

I guess it depends on how far you are going to take the vintage Trans-Am theme. I would cross an old school big block off the list right away, unless its all aluminum. Think R.J. Gottlieb's big red Camaro:drool:. But back on planet earth where budgets exist, I see three ways for this to play out.

1. True vintage Trans-Am which to me means Donahue in the Penske/Sunoco car with a real cross ram 302. Probably not the most potent combo, nor the easiest to tune, but would say pretty wicked and the :shock: factor whent the hood opens would be up there.

2. Updated take on the Trans-Am there would be to take advantage of the advances in engine technology and build something along the lines of what johnjzjz mentioned. A large displacement SBC, big bore/short stroke with all the goodies and let it sing. Would still sound mean as hell and only you would know the true displacement, so 302 badges/decals would fill the bill nicely:wink:.

3. Modern muscle, LS-based all aluminum motor. You could do 427 inches make and easy 500-550hp NA and then decide to keep the injection or go carbed.

I would do number 2, but add the cross ram intake.....hahahahaa best of all worlds.

A few pics to strengthen my case.

Chris

[johnjzjz]

hell, i'd like to know more about this motor... :drool:



what would you like to know cant tell you what we have done with this at the track < i would get Bulls$it from the crew -- but in all my years of small block racing its my choice of a hot rod using pump gas it comes out around 9.7 to one ---

i have been approached by a rolex road race team shop / twin turbo Porsche powered cars to do their wants in a undeveloped motor program if the meetings pan out this week dont know if i want it at this point of my life i could end up being endless hours but if i do i will be closing my shop sooo ask or call me -- jz

[jims69camaro]

hell, i'd like to know more about this motor... :drool:

what would you like to know cant tell you what we have done with this at the track < i would get Bulls$it from the crew -- but in all my years of small block racing its my choice of a hot rod using pump gas it comes out around 9.7 to one ---

i have been approached by a rolex road race team shop / twin turbo Porsche powered cars to do their wants in a undeveloped motor program if the meetings pan out this week dont know if i want it at this point of my life i could end up being endless hours but if i do i will be closing my shop sooo ask or call me -- jz

like we've spoken about already, money is my only stumbling block at this moment. court's been put off until 18jun now, so all i can do is wait and hope you are still around to help me build a motor.

[bad64chevelle]

Billy, What do you plan on doing with the car? In my opinion if you want to stay with the Trans Am theme, I would build a carbed motor that spins RPMs like a 302. Like a few others said do a smaller motor with nice power and loads of RPMs. If you wanna just have a cruiser, do the big block. The torque of a big block is really nice when its just one touch of the right foot away.

[unstable bob gable]

I'd build a big inch "traditional" small block n' pass it off as a 302.

[98tadriver]

a 427 is a big block? thought it was a small block???

[Knipps]

a 427 is a big block? thought it was a small block???

you can do it to either IIRC

[BigAls87Z28]

a 427 is a big block? thought it was a small block???

With modern blocks like the Little M and the GenIII/IV motors, they can achieve some really big numbers. Biggest Little M small block Ive seen is a 454, which I think is about the max for any Gen IV motor too.

A regular 350 cannot be punched out and stroked for 427. Little M has the cam position raised for the longer stroke.

Big Block and Small block just denote the engine series in which the engine in question belongs too.

[bad64chevelle]

a 427 is a big block? thought it was a small block???

Never heard of the 427 Chevys in the late 60s?

[69BirdX]

I am big fan of the 327. Diffrent engine that can make some serious numbers. You can also get it to be a nice high rpm motor for vintage trans am. For my 69 Bird i kinda want to build a destroked pontiac to a 303 like they were gonna make the trans am for the vintage racing. Ofcourse they never did it but why not make a clone of what they thought of.
________
Ford E-Series History (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_E-Series)

[1QWIKBIRD]

a 427 is a big block? thought it was a small block???

:shock:

Lets review.......Some of the most significant engines in Chevrolet history were 427's. The COPO Camaro's were 427 transplants. Don Yenko used them, Baldwin Motion, Nickey, Berger........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Big-Block_engine

W motors (because of the shape of the valve covers)
348
409
427 (Z11 mystery motor?? Smokey Yunick?)

Big blocks (Mark IV)
396
402
427
454
366 (tall deck truck motor)
427 (tall deck truck motor)

Mandatory Reading
Chevrolet by the Numbers all three volumes.....more info than you can digest in one sitting.

[bad64chevelle]

:werd: wow ok you just said what I was too tired to write.

I am big fan of the 327.

Yeah, I like that motor too :mrgreen:

[Ian]

I know the next motor I build for my camaro is going to be a 383 or bigger, depending on what block I use/can afford.

[unstable bob gable]

Well, whatever engine ya do, when yer ready for decals to get that "real" Trans Am look, just gimme a holla! :)

[unstable bob gable]

I know the next motor I build for my camaro is going to be a 383 or bigger, depending on what block I use/can afford.

I thought you were going LT1?

[Ian]

I thought you were going LT1?

I am. but once I get my kicks with that, a bigger motor will go in.

[johnjzjz]

:shock:

Lets review.......Some of the most significant engines in Chevrolet history were 427's. The COPO Camaro's were 427 transplants. Don Yenko used them, Baldwin Motion, Nickey, Berger........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Big-Block_engine

W motors (because of the shape of the valve covers)
348
409
427 (Z11 mystery motor?? Smokey Yunick?)

Big blocks (Mark IV)
396
402
427
454
366 (tall deck truck motor)
427 (tall deck truck motor)

Mandatory Reading
Chevrolet by the Numbers all three volumes.....more info than you can digest in one sitting.

the copos were not 427 CI they were a bit bigger its stroke was not 3 .76 like the rest ( it was just like the Z 11 409 ( 427 ) before it a special combo ) i do not remember the actual size but i do believe its 20 or so inches bigger only had one apart 30 years ago and the piston compression height was shorter and we couldn't buy anything else but from Chevy - no other listing was available for the motor but GMs > and the 396 had an single over head cam to copy the SOHC Fords 427 but it never made production only seen one never heard it run and Smokey Yunick or Arques < speeling was involved it would be my guess - jz

[WildBillyT]

Well, the only reason I'd go with a small block is to have a high revving motor, not to have a long stroked large displacement small block. And If I were going to buy an aftermarket block to go big inch I'd go straight to a big block to do a 540 or so.

Now I'm thinking a destroked LS1 based motor. Hmm....

John,

That SOHC 396 sounds like it would have been cool. Did you ever see the specs for the tri-power small block they were going to do for the Camaro? It got shelved but there are sheets from 1969 assembly manuals that show how they were going to do it.

[johnjzjz]

Well, the only reason I'd go with a small block is to have a high revving motor, not to have a long stroked large displacement small block. And If I were going to buy an aftermarket block to go big inch I'd go straight to a big block to do a 540 or so.

Now I'm thinking a destroked LS1 based motor. Hmm....

John,

That SOHC 396 sounds like it would have been cool. Did you ever see the specs for the tri-power small block they were going to do for the Camaro? It got shelved but there are sheets from 1969 assembly manuals that show how they were going to do it.

no i had not but it was not uncommon for GM -- they had try powered the olds from 57 to 58 it was called the J2 motor - the 427 vettes 67 / 69??? - the ponitac GTOs option as well and 50s caddy dont remember what years but remember it was vacume for end carbs - 440 cuda and 340 motored cars as well they called it a 6 pack ---merc and fords had it as well 390cu 406 and 427 motors - an street hot rods try power was a real thing to have 3 duces and a 4 speed hahahaha you were the deal in those days

i do think if i were duping a trans am series clone i would use the cross ram it sayes bad to the bone before you start it hahahahahahahhaha -- jz

[1QWIKBIRD]

the copos were not 427 CI they were a bit bigger its stroke was not 3 .76 like the rest ( it was just like the Z 11 409 ( 427 ) before it a special combo ) i do not remember the actual size but i do believe its 20 or so inches bigger only had one apart 30 years ago and the piston compression height was shorter and we couldn't buy anything else but from Chevy - no other listing was available for the motor but GMs > and the 396 had an single over head cam to copy the SOHC Fords 427 but it never made production only seen one never heard it run and Smokey Yunick or Arques < speeling was involved it would be my guess - jz

So the Central Office Production Order cars were not based on 427 short blocks? But were custom built 440+/- cubes engines? Never heard that before. Gonna have to dig deeper into this....interesting

[Featherburner]

So the Central Office Production Order cars were not based on 427 short blocks? But were custom built 440+/- cubes engines? Never heard that before. Gonna have to dig deeper into this....interesting

You can dig all you like but, I doubt you'll find that info anywhere.:-?

[1QWIKBIRD]

You can dig all you like but, I doubt you'll find that info anywhere.:-?

Well I did some digging. Everything I have ever read, remembered or have heard recounted by others goes along the lines of the 396 car being ordered with the COPO option which was the end around to get the 427/435hp motor installed, direct from the factory. All of the data in Chevrolet by the Numbers (which I think is generally accepted to be a reliable source for casting numbers and configurations) supports this both with:

Engine Code Suffix ID's
Corvette MS (details unknown)

Chevelle MP 4spd
MQ Auto

Camaro MN 4spd
MO Auto
ML 4spd (ZL-1)
MM Auto (ZL-1)
and

Casting numbers for blocks
#3946052 Aluminum for ZL-1
#3963512 Iron block used for Chevelle and Camaro

and

Crankshaft info indicates all were 3.76 in stroke. There is no info on compression height, so I can't use that as a clue.

So that is my starting point. No mention anywhere of a special crankshaft/short block.

After some quick searching on the web.....

http://www.holisticpage.com/camaro/camaros/copo.htm

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/reader_rides/1271746.html

http://www.coyoteclassic.com/BS69COPO.htm

http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/Supercars/69ZL1/

So Johnjzjz, without disrespecting you or discounting what you experienced 30 years ago, I still feel very comfortable saying that COPO cars were 427 cubic inche engines swapped in at the factory. That is not to say you did not stumble across a non-original example or possibly some sort of factory "mule", but to make the blanket statement that COPO cars were not 427's would be erroneous in my opinion.

I would love for someone to prove this generally held fact wrong so this way maybe I could pick up an "incorrect" COPO car for a song and dance......

Respectfully
Chris Ciatteo

[68camaroguy]

302 sbc.... lightweight high revving. big power............dual quads. runs strong all day

[Featherburner]

ZZ572 should make things interesting.:nod:

[johnjzjz]

So Johnjzjz, without disrespecting you or discounting what you experienced 30 years ago, I still feel very comfortable saying that COPO cars were 427 cubic inche engines swapped in at the factory. That is not to say you did not stumble across a non-original example or possibly some sort of factory "mule", but to make the blanket statement that COPO cars were not 427's would be erroneous in my opinion.


you know i should not have just gone on what i recalled with out looking it up --- in the seventy's we did many many BBC and in those days unlike today no information was available no computers only paper books at Chevy and a cross to a motor # i was at this writing sure i had a book in my collection that confirmed what i had wrote and i might still find, but after an hour of looking i have not sooo not making any excuses, it would seem i was incorrect, but if i should find what i am sure i have read in our library as well we keep in the shop i will post it up, sorry for the mistake -- jz

[01SS]

I would pick a 502 to throw in my Cutlass.