The end is near

[SteveR]

Russia and Venezuela are now allies

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/09/26/russia.chavez/index.html

expect nuclear bombers and ships permanently stationed in the Western Hemisphere.

[Tsar]

Funny this makes the news but the fact that Somalian pirates (<-- WTF) seized a vessel with 33 tanks on board, that will be no doubt sold to someone no very nice does not. But no worries Russians sent a destroyer to potentially blow it out of the water..

[SteveR]

Funny this makes the news but the fact that Somalian pirates (<-- WTF) seized a vessel with 33 tanks on board, that will be no doubt sold to someone no very nice does not. But no worries Russians sent a destroyer to potentially blow it out of the water..

They just put it up

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/09/26/ship.tanks/index.html

[Tsar]

They just put it up

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/09/26/ship.tanks/index.html
Well I stand corrected!

[CHRIS67]

With the economy in the toilet and talks like this happening how many Euros do you think I can get for my Camaro?

[LTb1ow]

5 monopoly monies.

[LS1Hawk]

Guess I'll get cracking on the fallout shelter.

[BigAls87Z28]

Psh...T-72's. Hunks of iron now compared to modern tanks.

Russian's still have that old Soviet playbook at hand I see.

[Tsar]

Psh...T-72's. Hunks of iron now compared to modern tanks.

Russian's still have that old Soviet playbook at hand I see.
I believe those would be pretty good to fight wars in some 3rd war countries/African continent. Not everything is about US and invading it, genious.

[LTb1ow]

And I would imagine the future wars to be played out in econimies, not tanks and men.

[LTb1ow]

I believe those would be pretty good to fight wars in some 3rd war countries/African continent. Not everything is about US and invading it, genious.

Didn't do em so well in Afghanistan ....

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, good luck to the rebels that have to drive them.
Its not a honda civic, genious. You just dont turn the key and put it into drive.
If anything, it will be sold off or traded for more wepons. Rebels dont have the infrastructure to handle a fleet of tanks.

[Frosty]

...hmmm, Chavez and Russia....two players in the energy market. Explain to me again why we ignored the experts for decades when it came to being energy independent? They might not have more military might but energy is one way to choke this country.

[Tsar]

Didn't do em so well in Afghanistan ....
If Afghanistan did not have any help from US they would have been steam rolled, not like they (their country) weren't steamrolled/completely obliterated by the USSR anyways, have you look at the casualties? Any Tank > 3rd world "freedom fighter".

[LTb1ow]

Didn't say that they aren't effective, but guerrilla styled fighting in dense cities would kinda make them ineffective.

[SteveR]

If Afghanistan did not have any help from US they would have been steam rolled, not like they (their country) weren't steamrolled/completely obliterated by the USSR anyways, have you look at the casualties? Any Tank > 3rd world "freedom fighter".

Yep, the US created the Taliban and armed them to fight Russia.

[LTb1ow]

Yea, that came back to kick us in the ass, same with Iraq.

[Tsar]

Well, good luck to the rebels that have to drive them.
Its not a honda civic, genious. You just dont turn the key and put it into drive.
If anything, it will be sold off or traded for more wepons. Rebels dont have the infrastructure to handle a fleet of tanks.
Funny, in 2006 a tank was stolen out of a museum and driven in the streets of Budapest during anti government protests. I guess it is not that difficult after all. Also I'm willing to bet a few hundred dollars that people who would buy them would have enough money to find someone to teach them basic op's or at the very least learn them themselves.

Stick to GM nuts swinging please.

[Frosty]

Yep, the US created the Taliban and armed them to fight Russia.

The enemy of my enemy is now a friend.

[LTb1ow]

Well he does have a point, knowing how to drive one in the strictest sense, won't be much of a help when needed to put it through tactical maneuvers.

[Tsar]

Didn't say that they aren't effective, but guerrilla styled fighting in dense cities would kinda make them ineffective.
The world is not made up solely of NYC's, Beijings, Honk Kong's, and Rio de Janeiro's.

[SteveR]

The enemy of my enemy is now a friend.

Until he hijacks your airplanes :lol:

[Frosty]

Until he hijacks your airplanes :lol:

I'm just reinforcing our gubment's mentality.

[V]

plus our tanks cant run in the conditions in afghanistan/irag for the most part, too much sand and dust tear up the turbines very fast, hence the reason u rarely see tanks in the news over there

[LTb1ow]

The world is not made up solely of NYC's, Beijings, Honk Kong's, and Rio de Janeiro's.

It's not? :rofl: And I would imagine a T72 in a jungle environment wouldn't do so well either...

[SteveR]

Didn't say that they aren't effective, but guerrilla styled fighting in dense cities would kinda make them ineffective.

Depends on the situation. If the enemy doesnt know you have tanks, or know you're coming, you can do massive devastation with them. Think about it like this, its a lot harder to kill troops if they are spread out in the woods with a tank, but in an urban situation, they'll most likely be grouped together in buildings. You can level an entire building with one round, effectively taking out an entire platoon in one shot, and with little exposure to your own troops who'll be behind you.

[LTb1ow]

Yes and a well trained smaller force can corner a tank and ambush it.

[Tsar]

It's not? :rofl: And I would imagine a T72 in a jungle environment wouldn't do so well either...
Africa has jungles?

[SteveR]

I'm just reinforcing our gubment's mentality.

I know, just trying to be funny :lol:

[LTb1ow]

Africa? I thought we were on Venezuela?

[Frosty]

I know, just trying to be funny :lol:

I know ;)

[Tsar]

Yes and a well trained smaller force can corner a tank and ambush it.
We are talking about third world freedom fighters that wear life jackets as bullet proof vests, not Navy Seals.

[SteveR]

Yes and a well trained smaller force can corner a tank and ambush it.

You can definitely disable a tank on foot, but you dont really 'corner it' like you would a small animal :lol:

[Tsar]

Africa? I thought we were on Venezuela?
wow.... my condolences.

[LTb1ow]

I suppose, but any one can figure that out no? Play enough COD and you should be good to go.

[SteveR]

I suppose, but any one can figure that out no? Play enough COD and you should be good to go.

That's whats great about tactics, its not only figuring out your enemies weaknesses, but how to exploit them effectively.

[Frosty]

COD 4 FTW :D

I've taken out many a tanks in that game...the Navy Seals have nothing on me :D

[LTb1ow]

But considering how rampant RPGs and similar weapons are, a heavy main battle tank in heavy jungle terrain doesn't seem to have much of a chance to me.

[Tsar]

But considering how rampant RPGs and similar weapons are, a heavy main battle tank in heavy jungle terrain doesn't seem to have much of a chance to me.
Somalia is not in South America, it's in Africa...

[LTb1ow]

And NJ is not in Siberia, its in the USA....

[Tsar]

And NJ is not in Siberia, its in the USA....
I'm not the one confused about geographical locations of certain places. :shrug:

[BigAls87Z28]

Funny, in 2006 a tank was stolen out of a museum and driven in the streets of Budapest during anti government protests. I guess it is not that difficult after all. Also I'm willing to bet a few hundred dollars that people who would buy them would have enough money to find someone to teach them basic op's or at the very least learn them themselves.

Stick to GM nuts swinging please.

Alright, so here we go again

So we have 300 or so African pirate rebels, and now they have a bunch of tanks!
So they learn how to drive them. w00t!
And in about 10 hrs, they are just stationary gun platforms because the supply of gas and other maint. is not there.
So again...to the rebel's, these tanks are more $$$ then wepons to them. They can sell the T72' to some nation that has the support that a T72's need to opperate in the field, and then the rebels can take that cash and buy more things like guns, in which will work better for the kind of fighting they do.
If the rebels are smart, they would hook up with another goverment to sell them to or trade them for wepons they can use, such as RPG's, sub machine guns, heavy wepons, and perhaps higher technology.
We arent talking about a standing army. We are talking about rebels who move fast, fight fast, and flee.
A tank would be the last thing they really need. But, they will probably think like you, and start shooting things with it, break it, and not now how to fix it. And now its useless.
Great, good plan there commie.

[LTb1ow]

I am just confused as to where we were discussing where these T72s are. I think I got Russia allying with Venezuela in my mind and then coupled that with missing T72s.

[LTb1ow]

And its a friggen Russian tank, how hard could it be to maintain?

[BigAls87Z28]

I am just confused as to where we were discussing where these T72s are. I think I got Russia allying with Venezuela in my mind and then coupled that with missing T72s.

T72's are in Africa, or at least hijacks by African pirates off the coast.

Russia and Venzeuela are now good friends, and Russia will be sending them wepons which could also include tanks, fighters, bombers, etc etc since they gave Ven. a $1billion dollar credt. Thats a lot of Russian wepons for a country that small.

[LTb1ow]

T72's are in Africa, or at least hijacks by African pirates off the coast.

Russia and Venzeuela are now good friends, and Russia will be sending them wepons which could also include tanks, fighters, bombers, etc etc since they gave Ven. a $1billion dollar credt. Thats a lot of Russian wepons for a country that small.

Didn't work for em so well in the cold war, but I guess with out economy the way it is, might as well try again....

[BigAls87Z28]

And its a friggen Russian tank, how hard could it be to maintain?

True...but could you fix your car in your driveway with zero tools?
Lets say you have some tools, and you have some instruction books and repair manuals...problem is. Its in Russian.

Sure, its EASY...but with NO TOOLS, whats the point? Unless you also captured a fleet of refuling trucks, along with instruction manuals, on top of opperational equipment manuals...oh yeah...AND ITS IN ****ING RUSSIAN!
So unless included in this big bundle of tanks is a Kenyan to Russian translator book, the tanks are useless!!

[LTb1ow]

I can repair my car without tools any day, its easy, anything wrong with it, I blame the opti, problem fixed. :wink:See? Anyone can do that. And the T72 is diesel, which I would imagine is pretty universal. Granted weapon systems may be different story, but given the time I would think some one could figure it out.

[Tsar]

Alright, so here we go again

So we have 300 or so African pirate rebels, and now they have a bunch of tanks!
So they learn how to drive them. w00t!
And in about 10 hrs, they are just stationary gun platforms because the supply of gas and other maint. is not there.
So again...to the rebel's, these tanks are more $$$ then wepons to them. They can sell the T72' to some nation that has the support that a T72's need to opperate in the field, and then the rebels can take that cash and buy more things like guns, in which will work better for the kind of fighting they do.
If the rebels are smart, they would hook up with another goverment to sell them to or trade them for wepons they can use, such as RPG's, sub machine guns, heavy wepons, and perhaps higher technology.
We arent talking about a standing army. We are talking about rebels who move fast, fight fast, and flee.
A tank would be the last thing they really need. But, they will probably think like you, and start shooting things with it, break it, and not now how to fix it. And now its useless.
Great, good plan there commie.
When Russian's offered some surplus Soviet Tanks to Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, they didn't seem to think the tanks were useless in fighting Taliban...

[BigAls87Z28]

I can repair my car without tools any day, its easy, anything wrong with it, I blame the opti, problem fixed. :wink:See? Anyone can do that. And the T72 is diesel, which I would imagine is pretty universal. Granted weapon systems may be different story, but given the time I would think some one could figure it out.

Im sure, anything is possible.
But you are talking about non-educated African rebels that have probably never seen a tank. With half of them teenagers or younger, it would be a long time till they got it to work right.
In the end, they will do 2 things
1- shoot it a few times and break it
2- sell them for guns/money/bombs that they can use.

[LTb1ow]

Well if someone gave me a T72, I would rock that thing to work and school.

[BonzoHansen]

Somebody refresh my memory-is a t72 a challenger or a camaro?

[Tsar]

Somebody refresh my memory-is a t72 a challenger or a camaro?
Camaro :lol:

[LTb1ow]

Well its this big ugly block of metal, soooo your choice.

[BigAls87Z28]

When Russian's offered some surplus Soviet Tanks to Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, they didn't seem to think the tanks were useless in fighting Taliban...

Tanks are pretty useless in mountain fighting. Tanks are great in open field, large attack situations.
Tanks going down paths in the mountains are just big, loud metal things that can be picked off.
Sure, the Russians cut apart the Afganies and left them to rot (as did the covert Americans) but Russia still left the country with its tail between its legs.

Same goes for Vietnam. Tanks played a big role in semi-city fighting, giving protection to troops and firepower, but in the jungles, useless as **** on a snake.

In the desert of Iraq in 91 and 03, the large fast attack force of the allied assault used the tank's power to its advantage. Flat land for miles, unobstructed view, combined with the M1A1/2's advanced sights and massive gun, the T72's were picked off.
That, or some A-10 or AH-64 already ripped the turret right off the bitch.

[BigAls87Z28]

Somebody refresh my memory-is a t72 a challenger or a camaro?

Old, outdated, sloppy handling, ugly, and based on an older platform?
Thats the Challenger

Advanced, fast, powerful, agile....
If the Camaro had to be a tank...its the M1A2 Abrams!!

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/LAND_M1A2-SEP_Motoring_lg.jpg

[LTb1ow]

Kinda the same with the battleship, don't see many of them any more...

[Tsar]

Tanks are pretty useless in mountain fighting. Tanks are great in open field, large attack situations.
Tanks going down paths in the mountains are just big, loud metal things that can be picked off.
Sure, the Russians cut apart the Afganies and left them to rot (as did the covert Americans) but Russia still left the country with its tail between its legs.

Bubba I was talking about 2001... wow :rofl:

[Tsar]

So camero is a bigger chunk of metal than a Challenger? :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

Bubba I was talking about 2001... wow :rofl:

So the Soviet's offerd T72's to the Taliban in 2001 to fight Americans?
Im asking you seriously, I never heard that.

[BigAls87Z28]

Kinda the same with the battleship, don't see many of them any more...

Yeah, MBT's are no longer needed as there probably wont be any giant war...but then again, this thread indicates otherwise.
Fast moving wepons platforms like the Stryker are fast moving and can get out of tight situations faster then a M1 can, and still cary a big stick.


Several variations of the Stryker
http://ve.ida.org/rtoc/open/SIP/sipgifs/stryker-3.jpg


Big Stick version
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/LAND_Stryker_MGS_Firing_Side_lg.jpg

Its also a troop transport. Its a very versitile truck. Maybe Paul can let us in on some other cool info.

[LTb1ow]

The Strykers sucks. Overrated.

[Tsar]

So the Soviet's offerd T72's to the Taliban in 2001 to fight Americans?
Im asking you seriously, I never heard that.
Nah, Russia gave Northern Alliance surplus tanks and surplus helo's to fight Taliban. However, US paid for transportation (I'm sure they also paid % of the costs of equipment).

Here is a more credible source than I am http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/23/afghanistan.russia

[BigAls87Z28]

The Strykers sucks. Overrated.


WHAAAAAA! Ive talked to a few troops who have been around them or in battle, and they liked them. I watched a whole thing on the military channel about it, and the troops seem to be happy about them as well. I thought it was a big of a fluff piece, but overall they seemed to like them better then a Hummer.

[LTb1ow]

I guess, to me it seems like a rushed piece of equipment that was pushed through because of the demand.

[BigAls87Z28]

Nah, Russia gave Northern Alliance surplus tanks and surplus helo's to fight Taliban. However, US paid for transportation (I'm sure they also paid % of the costs of equipment).

Here is a more credible source than I am http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/23/afghanistan.russia

Well there ya go.
These guys have been working on and fighting in these tanks for 30 years now.
African pirates...24 hrs.
But the articles talks about exactly what I was talking about, they want easy to use, reliable wepons.
Pirates want the same.

[LTb1ow]

AK47 FTW.

[Tsar]

Well there ya go.
These guys have been working on and fighting in these tanks for 30 years now.
African pirates...24 hrs.
But the articles talks about exactly what I was talking about, they want easy to use, reliable wepons.
Pirates want the same.
I never said pirates (wtf pirates, really? is this 2008?) themselves would use it, I stated in my first post that they would sell it to someone who wants them. And people who buy them will make about Rwanda. :shrug:

[LTb1ow]

Still called pirates.

[Tsar]

AK47 FTW.
Indeed, they used to teach kids in Russia how to assemble/disassemble and operate those things. Not that the last one is very hard.

[Tsar]

Still called pirates.
I just find it humorous that we still have "pirates".

[BonzoHansen]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/Spongebob/images/thumb/7/74/PatchythePirate.jpg/250px-PatchythePirate.jpg

[ar0ck]

I guess, to me it seems like a rushed piece of equipment that was pushed through because of the demand.

Wheeled vehicles vs. tracked vehicles allow them to move faster on streets especially in urban combat and generate less noise. When the war began Insurgents & Iraqi National Guard were able to hear Bradly IFV's from miles away due to the loud noise of the tracks, with the Stryker it allows the vehicles to approach a hell of a lot quieter & quicker protecting its soldiers with in then before. Those vehicles save a lot of lives over their, and I've seen videos of them being struck by RPG's and IED's and the entire crew came out fine. The weapon systems are completely automated w/ manual controls and the crew doesn't even have to be exposed to enemy fire. Also the Stryker uses a Army medium-lift truck engines, eliminating extensive maintenance with the use of common parts.

Its designed as an urban assault vehicle, that's the war were fighting and its the perfect vehicle for the job.

[band77one]

waiiiiiiit a second!!!!! i thought it was spelled genius.

[LTb1ow]

Wheeled vehicles vs. tracked vehicles allow them to move faster on streets especially in urban combat and generate less noise. When the war began Insurgents & Iraqi National Guard were able to hear Bradly IFV's from miles away due to the loud noise of the tracks, with the Stryker it allows the vehicles to approach a hell of a lot quieter & quicker protecting its soldiers with in then before. Those vehicles save a lot of lives over their, and I've seen videos of them being struck by RPG's and IED's and the entire crew came out fine. The weapon systems are completely automated w/ manual controls and the crew doesn't even have to be exposed to enemy fire. Also the Stryker uses a Army medium-lift truck engines, eliminating extensive maintenance with the use of common parts.

Its designed as an urban assault vehicle, that's the war were fighting and its the perfect vehicle for the job.


Yes and eh, they weigh a ****load, and the whole idea of FCS integrating the battlefield is great and all, but its a pipe dream at best. They have not so good armor, and them replacing the M1A is a bad idea.

[BigAls87Z28]

They arent replacing the M1, more like a heavy duty hummer or a faster M2 bradley.

Its a great vehicle for fast moving forces. It will be getting more armor as well as additional equipment.

[LTb1ow]

No, the stryker idea is for replacing the M1, as part of FCS.

[SteveR]

I guess, to me it seems like a rushed piece of equipment that was pushed through because of the demand.

Stryker was developed long before 9/11. I remember seeing one in 2000 in its finalized version. We were testing its mobility capabilities, and I must say, it barely fits in a C-130, it takes a shoehorn to get it in. The new stuff coming out is designed more to fit in the C-17, so its a lot bigger.

[SteveR]

AK47 FTW.

AK47 FTL lol hunks of crap. They're only popular because they're cheap to manufacture.

[ar0ck]

AK47 FTL lol hunks of crap. They're only popular because they're cheap to manufacture.

The Stryker is also an updated American design of the Canadian LAV that's been in service with the Corps & Army since desert storm (probably as early as Grenada) with an exceptional combat record.

[bubba428]

Bubba I was talking about 2001... wow :rofl:

:-? WTF did I do...I'm just watching you guys argue over what some group of azzhats are going to o with a bunch of tanks....

in my opinion they'll use them till they break then try to sell them for weapons....or just leave them where ever. that is of course if that russian ship doesn't sink them

[Tsar]

AK47 FTL lol hunks of crap. They're only popular because they're cheap to manufacture.
Cheap & Works in all imaginable conditions FTW :nod:

[Tsar]

The "pirates" are actually demanding 35 mil for the crew right now. I wanna know how fast the Russians will sink them :lol:

Other governments apparently have paid them before... The last two were Japan and Malaysia, they paid 2 mil each...

[bubba428]

does russia even have 35mill?

[Tsar]

does russia even have 35mill?
You are not very bright, are you? :lol:

[r0nin89]

Pfff do we even have 35mil? I thinks Russia is doing much better than us at this point in time.

Here comes another Cuban Missile Crisis. Except venezuelan missile crisis doesnt have such a ring to it.

As said I think I'm gonna start digging. What is it 50 feet down to be safe from fallout?

[bubba428]

You are not very bright, are you? :lol:

joke son......cool yer jets commie

[Tsar]

joke son......cool yer jets commie
I'm pretty calm, but the "joke" was pretty stupid. With all the money crude money Russia has acquired recently they paid off all of their debt, so they have plenty of cash at the moment... I would go in further on the Russians running a surplus budget and their cash fund for the "rainy day", for a number of years now, but you do not really strike as an intelligent conversationalist so I think it will be a waste anyways.

[bubba428]

funny guy...

[79CamaroDiva]

Cheap & Works in all imaginable conditions FTW :nod:

Except they dont shoot strait lol

This is Steve, I'm undercover shhhhh

[Tsar]

Except they dont shoot strait lol

This is Steve, I'm undercover shhhhh
Yea but in today's door to door style warfare you do not need a gun that can hit someone between the eyes at 300 yards.

[ar0ck]

Last I read on the situation theirs an American ship tailing this ship off the coast. They will probably Scuttle it.

[1972LT1]

To hell with your tanks,guns and ships.....fire up the LHC!!!!! Awaken Cthulu from his dreaming in Ryleh.

[Savage_Messiah]

To hell with your tanks,guns and ships.....fire up the LHC!!!!! Awaken Cthulu from his dreaming in Ryleh.


Best post in teh thread