GM AND CHRYSLER IN MERGER TALKS!!!

[JerzyIroc]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27125864/

[12secondv6]

I was just watching the news and......

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/business/11auto.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

And.... I suck at the internet...... repost.... I'm old so leave me alone

[BonzoHansen]

Merged threads, corrected spelling of chrysler... :rolleyes:


Sounds like Chrysler is looking for a savior - I told you they were in worse shape. I'd love to hear what would be in it for GM.

[JerzyIroc]

opps. did i forget the damn h lol

[badzracing]

It's going to be interesting for sure....Camaro with a hemi? Ram with a 6.2l ls1 based engine? hmmmm...

[Mike]

return of amc?

[JerzyIroc]

v10 vette? v8 viper?? lol no way.

[badzracing]

v10 vette? v8 viper?? lol no way.

Never say never, bud. GM was working on a v10 not so long ago and the world's fastest Viper has a v-8 in it.

[BonzoHansen]

Chrysler has been trying to sell the viper line.

They are gonna part chrysler out.

Edit: ohh, Gm could want jeep.

[badzracing]

If this happens, I wouldn't have to feel guilty about liking the new challenger.

[Mike]

im in line for the 2012 gremlin

[jin1481]

i told the chrysler dealer that he was in big trouble a few months back, i guess i wasn't kidding

[JerzyIroc]

http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23652&highlight=buys+chrysler

That was a thread back in feb of 07 about GM buying chrysler. Its crazy to think that only a year and a half ago it would have been unbelievable. Now, its totally believable.

[r0nin89]

hmmm maybe the whole "its a jeep thing" wouldnt be such a bad thing anymore. Wrangler with a vortec. That would be sick.

[Frosty]

I still don't see how that'd benefit GM. :confused:

[BonzoHansen]

Me neither. But GM might be interested in the minivans, jeep and getting their 50% of GMAC off their books (cerberus owns the other 50%)

[band77one]

maybe they will offer a jeep with a corvette motor :o

[NastyEllEssWon]

i could see them phasing out chrysler, scooping up jeep...and finally having a nice luxary platform for the ressurection of Buick.

[r0nin89]

Yeah I would think that jeep would be the biggest perk. Not to mention if you ever told a mopar guy back in the 60's/70's that one day GM would buy them out theyd call you crazy. Its kinda like a huge achievement sorta speak for gm to engulf one of the other big 3.

[NJSPEEDER]

Chrysler has no market image, no useful technology that I can think of, and they are in the process of packaging and selling off the the Viper brand. There is just not much going on there.

I can't see anything useful that GM could get from a purchase or even a developmental or strategic partnership.

Besides, why would GM want to assume the gigantic debt hole that Chrysler is in?

-Tim

[badzracing]

maybe they will offer a jeep with a corvette motor :o

Yeah, and maybe they'll throw in a 3/4 race cam.

[NJSPEEDER]

nah dude, that totally calls for the 15/16ths cam. lol

[BonzoHansen]

i could see them phasing out chrysler, scooping up jeep...and finally having a nice luxary platform for the ressurection of Buick.

The new buicks are already nice.

[Frosty]

If the Viper line doesn't sell by the time the merger gets serious do you think GM is looking at that revenue from the Viper line sales?

I still don't see how this gives them ANY benefit aside from minivans(like someone said). Chrysler does pretty well with the minivans.

[Ian]

even with jeep and the minivan line, I dont see how this would benefit GM at all.

[Frosty]

I'm still thinking about this, not only would they absorb the actual car models think of all the employees and whatever wonderful contract they have with the crooked UAW...getting rid of those employees won't be easy. I could see GM keeping my most of Chrysler's products since they compete in some car classes.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Cummins Diesel with an Allison behind it, wrapped in a Silverado skin? Sounds Yummy

[r0nin89]

Cummins Diesel with an Allison behind it, wrapped in a Silverado skin? Sounds Yummy

I didnt even think of that. Chevy trucks with a cummins in them would be a dream come true.

[NJSPEEDER]

Cummings is a third party, not a part of Chrysler corp, just licensed to provide engines for Chrysler. GM owns the D-max brand/name. It would be a catastrophic waste of money to end up with a product that is basically equal.

[1QWIKBIRD]

I thought Dmax was a joint venture with Isuzu and GM sold off its last shares of Isuzu a couple years ago? Did it keep the rights to the Dmax engine? So unless GM was able to keep the technology and rights, I am sure they are paying Isuzu for supplying the engines in one form or another, irregardless of the them being built here.

Unless GM and Isuzu are in bed together on import export deals over in Isuzuland. I think GM could benefit from the Cummins relationship.

I just turned 200,000 in my CTD and wouldn't trade it for the anything.

[NJSPEEDER]

The D-max was a joint technology development deal. The basics of the engine and all of the controllers and such were made with the companies working together. GM retained the rights to the D-max and Isuzu kept the rights for a series of smaller diesels used in eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa.

[BigAls87Z28]

Holy Moly...

What could GM benifit? Well, they want to sell the Renn Center, so selling that and moving into Auburn Hills means a freebee HQ.
Jeep and the new Minivans are good. The new Ram is going to be rebadged as a Nissan, and Nissan and Chrysler has a lot of ties. GM can enjoy the cash flow from Nissan as well as VW that makes thier "German Engineerd" VW Town and Country err...Caravan..err...Routun or whatever the hell VW calls that rebadge job.
Nissan could buy the rest of the empty plants from GM/Chrysler to up thier American production.

Clearly Chrysler would make out like a bandit, now having access to the engineering of GM. They would no longer need to use Nissan to develop a compact platform. This could either be a joint-venture or a full merger, but if that was teh case, we are talking about massive MASSIVE cut backs in divisions, brands, and car lines.

IMO, this is a poor move for GM when they have very little money now, I dont understand why they would do this outside of it being more of a trade off for the rest of GMAC and this is the only way without burning up too much money.

It would mean a totaly different world car wise. Chrysler would be stripped of nothing. Not one single car they currently make is better then a GM product outside of the Ram and the Jeep brand as a whole which really has no major competition. With CAFE and GM's already overstocked brands, I dont see this as being any good at all.

[ws6 jim]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the the return of the LS powered K car?!?

[bubba428]

pontiac viper??? LSx V10????

[Savage_Messiah]

How about GM taking over those electric jeep, minivan and roadster projects....

[HeadlessNorseman]

lsx wrangler would be nice. although they stopped putting v8s in wranglers for a reason. Since that was such a great idea, if they dont do it, im gonna build my own!

[Frosty]

Would you guys get your heads out of the clouds. There will be no LSx Viper, no LSx K-car, etc.

Damn...:rofl:

[r0nin89]

Cummings is a third party, not a part of Chrysler corp, just licensed to provide engines for Chrysler. GM owns the D-max brand/name. It would be a catastrophic waste of money to end up with a product that is basically equal.

I know that and I beg to differ that they are equal. A cummins is a far superior motor when it comes to longevity, mileage, and torque.

[BigAls87Z28]

Dmax is the most powerful diesel engine in any pick up truck to date.
More then the mega huge 6cyl Cummings. The Dmax is king of the roost. And the new mini Max, the 4.5 Dmax that will show up in a year will also be one of the best on the market, taking up space of a Gen IV small block, while brining anywhere from 24-27mpg highway.

Wana good read?

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f32/merger-who-good-big-al-rant-70171/#post1534651

wrote it up today at work.

[12secondv6]

Rebirth of the neon - RWD - viper powered ... nuff said!

[Tru2Chevy]

Dmax is the most powerful diesel engine in any pick up truck to date.
More then the mega huge 6cyl Cummings. The Dmax is king of the roost. And the new mini Max, the 4.5 Dmax that will show up in a year will also be one of the best on the market, taking up space of a Gen IV small block, while brining anywhere from 24-27mpg highway.

I'm a big fan of the Duramax series of motors, but the older 5.9 Cummins and the new 6.7 Cummins are great motors too. And the Dmax does make more peak power, but the Cummins makes more down low, where it counts (don't forget their 6.xx:1 first gear in the M6), which makes an ideal setup for hauling big loads. Again, not taking anything away from the D-max or the Allison trannies....

- Justin

[HeadlessNorseman]

On the other side, a duramax powered wrangler would be an amazing trail vehicle. My grandpa has a duramax truck that is just as fast as my formula and gets almost double the mileage. well not really but 22-25mpg AND 600+ ft lbs out of a crew cab 4wd truck is amazing tho

[Tru2Chevy]

the current Duramax is WAY to heavy to stick in the nose of a Wranger, the new smaller version would prolly be better. A 4BT is a good fit though :)

- Justin

[chemicalstylez]

chryslers with transmissions that last longer than 40k miles..... wow that would be a miracle! i say they pass on them honestly, their such garbage lol.

[Mike]

the challenger platform would be a nice base for a new rear drive impalla

[CivicEaterLT1]

id like to get my hands on a viper lol

[BigAls87Z28]

the Zeta platform would make for such a great replacement for that POS cobbled together, half chrysler half old W124 MB chassis that is under the 300/Charger/Challenger.

Fixed. :mrgreen:

[BonzoHansen]

the challenger platform would be a nice base for a new rear drive impalla

The G8 will too when they kill PMD.

[NJSPEEDER]

the Zeta platform would make for such a great replacement for that POS cobbled together, half chrysler half old W124 MB chassis that is under the 300/Charger/Challenger.

Fixed. :mrgreen:

Yeah, let's hope they get rid of that horrible platform that sold a few million units world wide over the course of a decade in cars much more refined than that blessed new Camaro :roll:

Seriously Al, let it go. Every time you comment on the Charger you sound like more and more of blind fan boi.

Chrysler made a fine car, if you aren't enough of a real car guy to notice, that is your short fall. Not the Benz platform it is based on.

[BigAls87Z28]

Drive a Charger RT, then drive a G8 GT.
Tell me which one is better.
I have
I know
Fan Boyism aside. G8 GT is a better car then the Charger on every measurable and subjective test. Why on God green earth would GM throw Zeta away and use Chrysler's? Cause it sold a lot of units? ****, if that was the case, the W body is the best ****ing chassis ever made, better then the current LX because Impala itself outsells ALL the LX cars COMBINED!

Chassis dynamics, thats the name of the game. GM has a plant ready to make half a million Zeta's a year.

[DevilDougWS6]

i like the new g8s, never got to drive a challenger yet....i would imagine it rides/drives like a mid 80s lincoln town car. but then again i could be wrong.

[BigAls87Z28]

Its a good platform. Not nearly as agile as the Zeta platform, not nearly as sophisticated as Sigma, and not nearly as light as the old DEW Lincoln LS platform was, but a good platform.
Zeta is also a ton more flexible to offer more wheel bases as well as other vehicles off such a platform.
Zeta and Zeta 2 underpin 2 wheel base sedans, wagon model, a truck, and now a coupe. They are built for RHD and LHD, and can swallow anything from an Ecotec to a Gen IV, to an LS7 to an LS9. They are also designed for, soemthing Chrysler had to redo, a manual transmission.
And it was a hell of a lot cheaper then LX was. A LOT.

[BonzoHansen]

Update....
**************************
OCTOBER 17, 2008 GM and Chrysler Step Up Talks Over a Combination
By JOHN D. STOLL and JEFFREY MCCRACKEN

General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC are accelerating merger discussions amid strong support from potential lenders that are eager to see a deal done.

GM is set to report dismal third-quarter earnings in coming weeks and is scrambling to find new sources of funding, according to people familiar with the matter. That's spurring the auto maker to complete the deal as soon as the end of October, these people said.

Major banks that have long lent to both companies, such as J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., are also keen to do a deal to help reduce exposure to the auto industry

Cerberus Capital Management, which owns Chrysler, is looking to have a stake in a combined GM-Chrysler, according to people familiar with the situation. While some lenders like J.P. Morgan have shown interest in equity in such a deal, several other lenders approached by the parties have passed on the deal.

J.P. Morgan and Citigroup Inc., are representing Chrysler and Cerberus, while Morgan Stanley and Evercore Partners are representing GM, according to a person involved in the situation.

At this point, GM and Chrysler are far from having a firm deal in hand, people briefed on the negotiations said. Certain members of GM's board of directors continue to give the deal a cool reception. It is also unclear whether a key element of the talks -- swapping Chrysler for GM's 49% stake in GMAC LLC -- will happen, say these people.

Still, GM's management team is hammering out a potential takeover of Chrysler, and top-level executives remain bullish on the prospects of a combined GM and Chrysler.

While industry analysts have criticized the potential merger as being the equivalent of a Hail Mary, GM believes it can squeeze more than $10 billion in cost synergies from a deal, and get access to Chrysler's approximately $11 billion cash pile.

A GM spokesman declined to comment, as did spokeswomen for Cerberus and Chrysler.

The United Auto Workers has been among the constituents downplaying any potential benefits of a deal. However, the UAW leadership hasn't been as hostile in private in regard to the tie-up as public comments would suggest, people close to the union said.

The sale of Chrysler would trigger warrants the UAW has in the auto maker, a stake the union negotiated in last year's national labor talks. It is unclear what impact that would have, though it could give the UAW an even bigger ownership piece in a combined GM-Chrysler operation.

GM already has teams of people analyzing potential cost-cutting and savings it can do with Chrysler, which has about 66,000 hourly and salaried employees in North America.

"They'd have to move fast and gets lots of cost savings very quickly," said one person briefed on the talks.

Recently, GM has increased its estimates of how deep it could cut costs if it combined forces with Chrysler. And it is growing confident that it can slash those costs relatively quickly.

As GM continues to weigh a potential deal with Chrysler, the No. 1 U.S. auto maker is scrambling for ways to conserve cash amid what is turning out to be a horrendous month for U.S. auto sales. The company will lay off 1,500 workers in coming months at three assembly plants.

Even as Cerberus continues to engage in discussions with GM, it is also fielding talks with other potential suitors for Chrysler, people familiar with the matter said. The New York-based private-equity firm bought control of GMAC from GM in April 2006, and then turned around to buy Chrysler from Daimler AG about one year later.

Since Cerberus engaged in its buying spree, the U.S. auto industry has fallen into deep decline, with sales in coming months now expected to run at the lowest pace since the late 1980s.

Adding further pressure, key markets in other parts of the world -- including Europe and Asia -- are showing signs of fatigue, potentially limiting the near-term growth opportunities for U.S. auto makers looking to expand abroad.

[CamaroGirlie]

I hope it happens. This is because I leased a charger in april and now their not doing leases anymore and I know everyones gonna say something about leases but I like them because I don't keep cars very long but anyway I'm hoping GM will take over and hook me up with another lease on a 2011 dodge charger srt8 :)

[LS1Hawk]

Under the Hood of a GM-Chrysler Merger
BusinessWeek has learned details of the proposed merger between GM and Chrysler. The rewards are huge—but so are the obstacles

Article from BusinessWeek...similar to what Bonzo posted but with some other information

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db20081017_939535.htm

[Frosty]

Good article. GM will have a ton on its plate if the merger happens.

[Frosty]

Rumor has it that this merger could/should happen by the end of the month.

[Iroc-z86]

sounds good i guess, chrysler has been going down in quality with their cars for a little while now...:/ which is a shame because i like them. hope something good comes from this..

like a v8 powered wrangler ! so i can get 8-10 mpg instead of the 15-17 i already get lol

[BonzoHansen]

Current news is GM can't arrange the financing.

[Frosty]

Current news is GM can't arrange the financing.

There's a shocker lol

[BigAls87Z28]

Its possible that Cerberus is going to divide Chrysler in half. Half to GM, half to Renault/Nissian.

[Frosty]

Al, if GM doesn't get all of Chrysler will they still give up their 49% of GMAC financing to Cerberus?

[BigAls87Z28]

Al, if GM doesn't get all of Chrysler will they still give up their 49% of GMAC financing to Cerberus?

Good question. Dunno, we will see in a few weeks.

[Frosty]

Oh ok, I thought maybe the place you heard about them only getting half of Chrysler maybe mentioned the status of GMAC.

I still don't know how GM will benefit, then again I'm far from a financial expert...but if one company is losing $$ how could taking over another company that is losing $$ be beneficial?

If this merger does happen I'm REALLY curious to see how the UAW reacts...they're already bitching and moaning.

[Tru2Chevy]

GM should try for Jeep and forget the rest :)

- Justin

[Savage_Messiah]

Earlier, I read this... http://www.fquick.com/blog/GM_and_Chrysler_Merge_Agreement_in_Two_Weeks/2353


Now I just read this... http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/chrysler-walks-gm-gm-vw/story.aspx?guid=%7B32AC161D-77A6-4B2F-ABDD-754FC1D4E8F8%7D



I'm about to not even give a damn what I hear until it's official


Oh and semi-related-ish... http://www.fquick.com/blog/Ford_shares_for_sale__Could_lead_to_big_trouble/2356

[BigAls87Z28]

Oh ok, I thought maybe the place you heard about them only getting half of Chrysler maybe mentioned the status of GMAC.

I still don't know how GM will benefit, then again I'm far from a financial expert...but if one company is losing $$ how could taking over another company that is losing $$ be beneficial?



GM gets Jeep and Minivans on top of a HQ and some 11 billion dollars in cash. Dealers can be eliminated by lack of sales (as is happening now) as well as sell off the excess plants that have zero to do with GM or GM programs sold off to Foreign automakers such as Renault/Nissan, Fiat (make some of that 2.2 billion back) and even VW.

GM also gets a 10% increase in market share in the US, as well as 2 other companies to enter Europe and China with. Dodge and Chrysler have made small inroads in Europe. Chrysler vehicles would eventually be moved over to GM platforms, there for lessening excess capacity in current GM factories.

[Frosty]

That's all well and good and it makes sense the way you explain it but there's NO way the UAW is going to accept this. No way in hell.

[BigAls87Z28]

That's all well and good and it makes sense the way you explain it but there's NO way the UAW is going to accept this. No way in hell.

Nope, they are pissed off cause they know that GM will cut a massive amount of jobs...massive. But also, white collar jobs at Chrysler will be gone as well.
Either GM buys it and it stays American, or foreign companies buy it and start building here...either way, there will a lot of blood letting. More like a blood bath of jobs.
US Goverment sees this as a good thing, so they only have to bail out one company, not two.

[WildBillyT]

That's all well and good and it makes sense the way you explain it but there's NO way the UAW is going to accept this. No way in hell.

Well they had better start working with the companies more or they will find themselves in the unemployment line.

[SteveR]

Rumor has it that this merger could/should happen by the end of the month.

They always tell you that. I guess GM and Chrysler want to get the deal done before the incentives change next month :rofl: "Buy GM now, you get $10B off sticker!!!" :rofl:

[BonzoHansen]

GM&Ford may be talking again.....

[SteveR]

I hope it happens. This is because I leased a charger in april and now their not doing leases anymore and I know everyones gonna say something about leases but I like them because I don't keep cars very long but anyway I'm hoping GM will take over and hook me up with another lease on a 2011 dodge charger srt8 :)

Leases are done, period. No manufacturer is offering them anymore, not GMAC, not Dodge, not Ford Motor Credit, nobody. There is no money to lend and the risk is too high for leases now. Dealerships are scrambling to arrange options for leases through outside lenders, but you have no idea what you're signing up for right now, and the leases would have no connection to the manufacturer.

[WildBillyT]

They always tell you that. I guess GM and Chrysler want to get the deal done before the incentives change next month :rofl: "Buy GM now, you get $10B off sticker!!!" :rofl:

And in typical GM fashion, you will have to pay 25% more for a "package" of **** you don't want or need.

[Frosty]

Well they had better start working with the companies more or they will find themselves in the unemployment line.

I agree 100%. Then again I'm very anti union so I'm biased. I personally think the UAW is filled with crooks. Granted GM mismanaged their funds and products horribly but the UAW is NOT helping matters. I guess they don't realize that if you bleed the company they work for dry everyone loses.

[GP99GT]

i hope toyota buys GM

[SteveR]

i hope toyota buys GM

That would be ironic, given the scandal that happened a few years ago.

[BonzoHansen]

Related article...

Uncle Sam Goes Car Crazy
Your government gets into the auto business.
By HOLMAN W. JENKINS, JR.
Wall Street Journal OCTOBER 22, 2008, p A15

If it makes him feel any better, Rick Wagoner is by a long shot not the CEO to have presided over the greatest destruction of shareholder wealth while retaining a decent reputation. The record keeper is Cisco's John Chambers, who lost nearly half a trillion dollars in market value in 2000-2001.

Sadly, the comparison quickly runs out of relevance. GM was never raised to lofty heights by any bubble, but has been a distressed property even in the best of times. Now the company, facing the Detroit doomsday scenario, seems close to taking on the extra burden of private equity firm Cerberus Capital's disastrous stake in Chrysler.

The talk is of synergies and cost-cutting, of tapping new lodes of cash to ride out the storm. Don't believe it. These negotiations are about one thing: creating a political last stand of American auto making that a Democratic Congress and president won't be able to resist bailing out.

All parties to the Chrysler talks have adopted Election Day as a deadline, the better to trap both presidential campaigns into committing to support a deal. But it also slipped out that iconic Ford had been GM's first choice of partner -- a prospect that could yet be resurrected now that superinvestor Kirk Kerkorian has withdrawn his vote of confidence in Ford's survival.

Congress has already agreed to provide the Big Three with $25 billion in loans to help with a shift to green cars -- likely to become plain survival cash in the event. And Congress's very nature requires throwing good money after bad, specifically financing a GM-Chrysler merger if Michigan Sen. Carl Levin has his way. Don't be surprised if President-elect Obama is dropping hints in two weeks that this also would be a good use of the $125 billion Washington just injected into J.P. Morgan, Citigroup and friends. The government could even end up owning a car company directly before it's over, as the U.K. government once owned British Leyland.

Our other concurrent bailout -- of the banking industry -- has been accompanied by a debate of laissez faire versus intervention. How amusing. Banking in fact illustrates what might be called the GM Effect, for both industries have been around long enough to have accrued an almost incalculable baggage of government intervention, which explains why more intervention is demanded today.

Why don't the auto makers limit themselves to paying competitive wages and benefits in line with what workers could earn elsewhere? Because, in the 1930s, Congress passed the Wagner Act with the nearly explicit purpose of imposing a labor monopoly on Detroit to keep wages at higher-than-competitive levels.

Why doesn't Detroit rationalize its musty brand lineups and dealer networks? Because, in the 1950s, legislatures across the country imposed franchising laws, including the federal "dealer day-in-court clause," to make such rationalization prohibitively expensive.

Why don't the auto giants do as Whirlpool and other manufacturers have done, and move their production to cheaper offshore locales? Because, in the 1970s, Congress enacted fuel economy rules to penalize homegrown auto makers if they don't build the lion's share of their cars in high-wage, UAW-staffed domestic factories.

No, Detroit's troubles don't arise because its executives are morons. The human factor nets out over time. Nor is it the diktat of nature that companies get old and senile and die. The only thing wrong with corporate longevity are the legal encrustations that accumulate along the way. Look today at the desirable, fuel-efficient cars that GM and Ford sell in large numbers in Europe. Does anybody imagine the U.S. public derives any benefit from keeping these cars out of our country? Yet they are kept out to preserve the amour propre of the regulators who enforce our emissions and safety standards, however trivially different from Europe's standards.

Cerberus, stars in its eyes, perhaps didn't quite understand all this about the auto industry when it bought Chrysler thinking it would be free to make business-like decisions. Now it does.

Any business would be hard-pressed to survive if obliged to make consistently maladaptive choices. Any rescue mounted today in Washington won't be so much a "rescue" as a final admission that the industry can no longer bear its regulatory burdens without direct subsidies. Any life supports GM, Ford and Chrysler are hooked up to now, for that reason, will have to be permanent.

[BigAls87Z28]

Toyota would never want GM's problems. GM is the Anti-Toyota and vise versa.

[BigAls87Z28]

That is an OUTSTANDING article. Outstanding. Please send me the link, or suggest it as an article on GMI!
Bob Lutz has come out and asked that the US drop its current crash and emissions testing and adopting the European standard so that they can import or build the same great cars that are made in Europe in America.

[LTb1ow]

I just did my economy report on this all deal, big thanks for all the links guys!

[sweetbmxrider]

alls i know is big al is smart when it comes to this.

[BigAls87Z28]

Not that smart, but there is really a million ways to play this out, but knowing GM...they will pick the worst way.