Contact your reps! (not a politcal thread)

[Dark_Knight7096]

The state of NJ has a bill, A1282, in the legislature right now to reform current NJ CCW laws. It will turn NJ from a May-Issue state into a Shall-Issue state. If you believe in this awesome follow the instructions on the flyer and write to your representatives, if not, hey whatever you have that right to do so.

The entire language of the bill can be viewed on this website, instead of going straight to contacting your reps, you can search bill A1282 and view the entire bill in .PDF, but I warn, it is a BORING read.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u252/mjm0771/NJ_A1282/A1282_CampaignFlyer.jpg

[slugger27nj]

There's a better chance of us having our property taxes reduced by 95% than that bill ever passing in this state.

[Dark_Knight7096]

and thinking like that and not taking any action will ensure that nothing like this ever passes.

[Mike]

eh i carry

[Ian]

I'll write my rep. I'd love to have an excuse to buy a holster :)

p.s. mike, I hate you :flower:

[JerzyIroc]

My ADD wont allow me to read something that long and boring. What are the qualifications of being able to carry a concealed weapon?

[Knipps]

Reading long boring statements

[Fast92RS]

Can you post the link please?

[Savage_Messiah]

I never saw the point... around me nobody carries and generally the only crime around here is speeding...

[slugger27nj]

and thinking like that and not taking any action will ensure that nothing like this ever passes.
That thinking has nothing to do with why it will never pass, it's just simply reality. Just look at the bill sponsors, only 1 of the 5 is a democrat..that right there is the kiss of death. Even if there was a push to get this passed, as soon as the anti-gun nuts started chirping (and that's inevitable), it'll be all but over with.

Can you post the link please?
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2008/Bills/A1500/1282_I1.HTM

[JerzyIroc]

I dont mean to turn this into anything political, but not all democrats are antigun. Actually most arent antigun. The problem is when you live somewhere like jersey city, newark, camden or places with higher crime rates, there HAS to be a level of control that both protects the people as well as protects peoples right to own guns. I'm all for guns, but living in jersey city and living in whitehouse nj for example is completly different. Therefore if there is going to be a bill passed that allows people to carry a gun there MUST be very strict requirments. Not everyone should be able to own a gun or carry gun. The popular saying "guns dont kill people people kill people" is true only to a certain extent. Give a crazy person a spoon and a gun which is gonna kill first? Point being the right to own and carry a gun may be our right and im 100000% for it. However, there MUST be very strict levels of requirments as well as enforcement to protect the people who dont carry. Maybe one day this week ill read the bill and if there are very strict rules then hell ill do my best to help it pass!!

[Tru2Chevy]

Jerzy, every state that I know of with concealed carry laws has pretty strict requirements for being allowed to do so (even Texas).

It usually requires an extensive background check, classes, and lots of target practice to be sure that you actually know how to use the gun that you get to carry around.

- Justin

[JerzyIroc]

You sure about Texas?? lol j/k. If that's the case then I'm all for it. I have a few friends in the jc and local govern in JC. I'm sure i cant do a damn thing but ill see what's their view on it. I know one of my friends who's a councilman actually fought for one of the two gun stores in jersey city to stay open last year when people tried to shut it down. i wonder what he thinks about this....

[Fast92RS]

Ok I sent the email but I know for a fact my rep is anti-gun because of the bills he has sponsored for strict gun control.

[LTb1ow]

I dont mean to turn this into anything political, but not all democrats are antigun. Actually most arent antigun. The problem is when you live somewhere like jersey city, newark, camden or places with higher crime rates, there HAS to be a level of control that both protects the people as well as protects peoples right to own guns. I'm all for guns, but living in jersey city and living in whitehouse nj for example is completly different. Therefore if there is going to be a bill passed that allows people to carry a gun there MUST be very strict requirments. Not everyone should be able to own a gun or carry gun. The popular saying "guns dont kill people people kill people" is true only to a certain extent. Give a crazy person a spoon and a gun which is gonna kill first? Point being the right to own and carry a gun may be our right and im 100000% for it. However, there MUST be very strict levels of requirments as well as enforcement to protect the people who dont carry. Maybe one day this week ill read the bill and if there are very strict rules then hell ill do my best to help it pass!!


Just to play devils advocate here, it has been shown that 1/2 the time more guns are available, violence increases and the other 1/2, violence decreases. So your theory is moot. Furthermore, the amount of handgun ownership has risen drastically while overall crime rate, suicide, and hand gun homicide has remained the same. Again, your theory, moot.

[jims69camaro]

Just to play devils advocate here, it has been shown that 1/2 the time more guns are available, violence increases and the other 1/2, violence decreases. So your theory is moot. Furthermore, the amount of handgun ownership has risen drastically while overall crime rate, suicide, and hand gun homicide has remained the same. Again, your theory, moot.

first of all, look up devil's advocate. you need to know the rules in order to play.

then, try looking at the states that have carry laws and see which have strict rules concerning the weapons. furthermore, the amount of ILLEGAL handgun ownership has risen, and those weapons are used for ILLEGAL means. the weapon, with a trigger lock, that is locked in the safe with the ammunition in a different place is a legal weapon and does not add to crime statistics. the illegal weapon does. people can and do buy weapons in retail stores - why aren't those weapons being used for illegal means?
http://www.carryconcealed.net/

[LTb1ow]

Thats the whole problem, there is never any good statistics. And I am just quoting a book from 1997 and the FBI uniform crime reports. You can use one statistic to prove guns equate to more crime or turn around and use the same statistic to prove they don't. I was just trying to get the point across that more laws to restrict law abiding citizens will do nothing to lower crime rates.

[Mike]

your quoting stats from 12 years ago?

[jims69camaro]

Thats the whole problem, there is never any good statistics. And I am just quoting a book from 1997 and the FBI uniform crime reports. You can use one statistic to prove guns equate to more crime or turn around and use the same statistic to prove they don't. I was just trying to get the point across that more laws to restrict law abiding citizens will do nothing to lower crime rates.

understand one thing, if nothing else: law-abiding citizens with weapons will abide by whatever laws are in place or, in the future, put in place. only the criminals have illegal weapons and those illegal weapons are the ones used in crime. no law-abiding citizen is going to one day decide to load his weapon for criminal activity.

[BigAls87Z28]

Agreed with Jim.
Just how I feel about drugs. Just because you legalize drugs doesnt mean everyone is gunna be nose deep in white dust, or colapsed every vien in thier body.

IMO, the increased ability to CCW COULD allow people to retaliate in a situation. I can also see how some cops might be a little uneasy about this as they will have to be on thier toes from people carrying guns being good or bad.
I see the good and the bad.

[jims69camaro]

IMO, the increased ability to CCW COULD allow people to retaliate in a situation. I can also see how some cops might be a little uneasy about this as they will have to be on thier toes from people carrying guns being good or bad.
I see the good and the bad.

the police already are on their toes, since any person they pull over in a traffic stop could be carrying a weapon - legally or otherwise. the law abiding citizen will alert the officer to the weapon he carries.

the criminal will wait until he is in handcuffs sitting in the backseat of the patrol car and the officer searches his car because of probable cause or exigent circumstances... lol

[LTb1ow]

your quoting stats from 12 years ago?

Yup, did a report on it, and that was a main source. So yes, 12 year old stats.

[Ian]

Agreed with Jim.
Just how I feel about drugs. Just because you legalize drugs doesnt mean everyone is gunna be nose deep in white dust, or colapsed every vien in thier body.

IMO, the increased ability to CCW COULD allow people to retaliate in a situation. I can also see how some cops might be a little uneasy about this as they will have to be on thier toes from people carrying guns being good or bad.
I see the good and the bad.

Al makes some good points. However, the people applying for CCW would have a background check performed on them, they would have to take a NRA certified pistol saftey course (and pass it), and probably pay a decent amount of money for the processing ad the permit itself on top of it all. not to mention having their fingerprints taken and put into an FBI data base. plus here in NJ, legally bought handguns are registered so it will always get traced back to whomever bought it.

honest law abiding citizens should have the right to protect themselves. Criminals dont care if the law says they cant carry, they're going to do it anyway.

I own a gun and I can tell you that the last thing I ever want to do is use it for its intended purpose. its a last ditch effort in the truest sense of the term.

[BigAls87Z28]

Al makes some good points. However, the people applying for CCW would have a background check performed on them, they would have to take a NRA certified pistol saftey course (and pass it), and probably pay a decent amount of money for the processing ad the permit itself on top of it all. not to mention having their fingerprints taken and put into an FBI data base. plus here in NJ, legally bought handguns are registered so it will always get traced back to whomever bought it.

honest law abiding citizens should have the right to protect themselves. Criminals dont care if the law says they cant carry, they're going to do it anyway.

I own a gun and I can tell you that the last thing I ever want to do is use it for its intended purpose. its a last ditch effort in the truest sense of the term.

Well, that explains it perfectly.
How do police know who is the law abiding citizen, and who is a criminal?
How many police shootings were a result of a cop thinking someone had a gun, while the cop had an itchy trigger finger.
Multiply that by X amount MORE people that never had the ability to cary, and now you have more cops on edge cause who knows. At least before, if you were carying...you were probably a bad guy.
IMO, if you fear for your life, you would probably have a gun near by anyway, dispite the law.

[Ian]

Well, that explains it perfectly.
How do police know who is the law abiding citizen, and who is a criminal?

usually the criminals are the ones doing something wrong. certain times it is impossible to tell, like traffic stops. Jim already pointed out that cops treat those situations as if the person they pulled over could possibly have a weapon. a law abiding person with a carry permit would inform the officer that they have a carry permit and are carrying at the moment.

How many police shootings were a result of a cop thinking someone had a gun, while the cop had an itchy trigger finger.

those situations generally arise when someone is reaching for something out of the officers sight. its always important to make the officer comfortable in any situation and to be honest with them. again, someone who is legally carrying wouldn't reach for their gun and put the officer in that position. they would inform the officer that they are carrying and in the worst case scenario, have the officer remove the weapon from their person consensually.

Multiply that by X amount MORE people that never had the ability to cary, and now you have more cops on edge cause who knows.

this is something that kinda grates my nerves. people seem to think that if an honest person is carrying a gun that its going to come out of its holster all the time. ITS NOT! its not a cell phone, its not a wallet. it is your last chance to save your life if you are in a bad situation and you've run out of options.

At least before, if you were carying...you were probably a bad guy.

or security personnel, or an off duty police officer, or a corrections officer....

IMO, if you fear for your life, you would probably have a gun near by anyway, dispite the law.

Thats not true at all. within your home, sure I could see that. I dont know of anyone who carries that isn't allowed to legally. thats just plain stupid.
...

[JerzyIroc]

I really don't understand the big need to carry a weapon during everyday normal life. The Red Coats aren't gonna come again... lol jk. Seriously though. In smaller towns this may not be too big of an issue. In the cities it will. I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a cop in Jersey City and he's freaking out about this bill passing. What Al said is almost exactly what my friend said. He's always on edge, his district doesnt really make him feel any better either. But still, you never know who's got a gun or not. And at least before if you see a gun either in the car or on the person you can safely assume its not for good. Well what about now? As a cop you dont have much time to make decisions. Now he's gotta take into account that the person may be able to carry it legally. It would be very foolish to think that every person who would have the license to carry and actually carry is a top notch citizen. If you think that as a cop, you're dead. You HAVE to be pessimistic almost all the time. The more I think about it the more im actually iffy about this bill. The right to own a gun is our constitutional right. But carrying the gun around like a wallet, i dunno.

[Mike]

if you want to bring up the constitution.........

we have the right to BEAR arms, which means a right to have them on our person, not locked in our closet

[JerzyIroc]

Lies....lol jk. I know it is. But my point is times have changed. It may not be wise to allow just about anyone with half a brain that can pass a few tests and a clean record to go around carrying a gun in certain places like a large city.

[NastyEllEssWon]

good thread martin.

allowing nj to be more friendly toward carrying and carrying safely is absolutely a step in the right direction. theres a big difference with carrying a handgun in your waistband and carrying a handgun in a holster. theres also a big difference in finding a gun under the drivers seat rather than seeing the gun open on the passenger seat with the magazine out. the difference im making is that even if this bill is passed theres still going to be provisions to which criminals are not going to adhere.

the difference carrying a gun can make would be enormous. if your carjacked it wouldnt be smart to pull a gun while the criminal has the gun on you but imagine how easy the police would be able to find your vehicle if you fired a few shots at it afterwards. people dont tend to call the cops until a shot is fired. ''its not their problem'' until bullets start flying around their neighborhood. no one stops to help a woman being robbed for her purse anymore because you dont know what type of weapons they have...but firing a warning shot into the air from across the street might be enough to have the offender run away.

if this bill passes id be quite surprised...but its worth a shot.

[Fast92RS]

I really don't understand the big need to carry a weapon during everyday normal life. The Red Coats aren't gonna come again... lol jk. Seriously though. In smaller towns this may not be too big of an issue. In the cities it will. I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a cop in Jersey City and he's freaking out about this bill passing. What Al said is almost exactly what my friend said. He's always on edge, his district doesnt really make him feel any better either. But still, you never know who's got a gun or not. And at least before if you see a gun either in the car or on the person you can safely assume its not for good. Well what about now? As a cop you dont have much time to make decisions. Now he's gotta take into account that the person may be able to carry it legally. It would be very foolish to think that every person who would have the license to carry and actually carry is a top notch citizen. If you think that as a cop, you're dead. You HAVE to be pessimistic almost all the time. The more I think about it the more im actually iffy about this bill. The right to own a gun is our constitutional right. But carrying the gun around like a wallet, i dunno.

Well then how do the cops feel in big cities in other states that already have carry laws for years. Like Mami or Houston, etc. I think the criminal would be more on edge because they would not know who has a gun.
I do think that the person who is alowed to carry one should be looked at close, but its still our right. On top of the training courses and background checks and such maybe the person should be checked out every other year or something like that, maybe make them qualify like the police have to. Just my opinion.

[Mike]

good thread martin.

allowing nj to be more friendly toward carrying and carrying safely is absolutely a step in the right direction. theres a big difference with carrying a handgun in your waistband and carrying a handgun in a holster. theres also a big difference in finding a gun under the drivers seat rather than seeing the gun open on the passenger seat with the magazine out. the difference im making is that even if this bill is passed theres still going to be provisions to which criminals are not going to adhere.

the difference carrying a gun can make would be enormous. if your carjacked it wouldnt be smart to pull a gun while the criminal has the gun on you but imagine how easy the police would be able to find your vehicle if you fired a few shots at it afterwards. people dont tend to call the cops until a shot is fired. ''its not their problem'' until bullets start flying around their neighborhood. no one stops to help a woman being robbed for her purse anymore because you dont know what type of weapons they have...but firing a warning shot into the air from across the street might be enough to have the offender run away.

if this bill passes id be quite surprised...but its worth a shot.

1. you dont fire at a moving car
2. no more warning shots in new jersey

also, seeing a weapon on a passenger seat with the magazine out would make you more comfortable? you can release the magazine and leave a round in the tube......anyone trained will consider a gun without a magazine the same as a gun with a magazine until they have checked and cleared the weapon themselves

[NastyEllEssWon]

of course seeing any type of firearm is a slight cause for alarm...but theyre trained for that remember :wink: the big difference i was trying to make is that even if the law is passed Criminals will still carry the same way they used to.
If a cop saw a firearm on the front seat in plain view with the magazine clearly removed (yes i know one in the hole....but thats all you need in an emergency) if will alert the police officer that you really have nothing to hide and are following gun safety guidelines.


if i was carrying and was carjacked while carrying i would most certainly fire at the vehicle afterwards.

[Knipps]

of course seeing any type of firearm is a slight cause for alarm...but theyre trained for that remember :wink: the big difference i was trying to make is that even if the law is passed Criminals will still carry the same way they used to.
If a cop saw a firearm on the front seat in plain view with the magazine clearly removed (yes i know one in the hole....but thats all you need in an emergency) if will alert the police officer that you really have nothing to hide and are following gun safety guidelines.


if i was carrying and was carjacked while carrying i would most certainly fire at the vehicle afterwards.

and you accidentally hit someone and :hitfan:

[Mike]

or if you were as good as wyatt earp and hit the car and he lost control and killed a family of 5 in the minivan..........

you are already allowed to have a unloaded weapon in plain view in the vehicle (to and from the range etc.) the bill is for CONCEALED CARRY, meaning if you got pulled over it would be on your hip or ankle or shoulder and not visible to the officer

[NastyEllEssWon]

im sure there would be vehicular guidelines for it as well. id have to read the entire bill for good measure

[Ian]

of course seeing any type of firearm is a slight cause for alarm...but theyre trained for that remember :wink: the big difference i was trying to make is that even if the law is passed Criminals will still carry the same way they used to.
If a cop saw a firearm on the front seat in plain view with the magazine clearly removed (yes i know one in the hole....but thats all you need in an emergency) if will alert the police officer that you really have nothing to hide and are following gun safety guidelines.


if i was carrying and was carjacked while carrying i would most certainly fire at the vehicle afterwards.

a few things I'd like to point out...

no one is going to have a gun and magazine laying on their passenger seat while their driving around. what if you had to make a panic stop and the gun slid under the dash, now if you got pulled over it would look like you were trying to hide it. forget reaching for it to put it back on the seat while you're pulled over, thats a good way to get shot. if you are carrying concealed, its going to be on your hip, ankle, shoulder, etc. like mike said. if you got puled over and you were carrying, you would inform the officer that you have a concealed carry permit and that you have a weapon on you. you tell them in that order. you tell them you have a gun on you without first telling them you have a permit to do so, they are gonna freak.

and one round in the chamber "because thats all you'd need in an emergency"? what if you miss? what if you only hit them in the arm or leg? what if you hit them center of mass and they still keep coming because they are all coked out? unless you are an incredible marksman, one round isnt gonna do much. and please, for the love of god, do not fire at your vehicle as it drives away after a carjacking.

[JerzyIroc]

Ya i guess it would just take time for the cops around here to get used to it. I do think its a good point about the criminals. I actually do think that after the word gets out, maybe even a few reported incidents where a thief or whatever being deterred because of someone carrying a gun, maybe it might make a thief think twice. Like i said as long as there are really strict rules i think it would work. But there would have to be strict requirements as well as strict ENFORCEMENT of the rules and regulations. I also agree that there should be periodic checks on the people. Maybe even a psycological review.

[1QWIKBIRD]

I don't really think such a bill would make a big differenence one way or the other. How many people would exercise their right if it passed? Currently registered/legal gun owners would probably do so, but is John Q. Public going to run out and jump through the hoops just to have a gun on his hip? I have no problem with the bill, provided the safeguards are in check, but I don't see it being a deterrent or making it easier on the police. A concealed weapon is just that, concealed. So it has a much lesser chance of deterring if the bad guy can't see it. Sure, at least now he has to consider the possiblity, but desperate people do desperate things and I don't think a concealed weapon will change it, all that much.

Think about a carjacking or a mugging or robbery. The primary advantage isn't the perp's weapon, but the element of surprise. The weapon forces compliance once the attacker has gained the advantage. You are sitting in the car, music playing, waiting for the light to go green, maybe checking the text message your friend just sent you, TAP TAP TAP on the passenger window, you look. Then the driver door gets ripped open or the window smashed and there's a gun in your face? Lotta good the concealed will do you then?

Last thing I want is some cowboy playing police officer. Let the police be the police. I'd rather see the money/effort required to implement and maintain such a program be put towards more police on the street in needed areas or putting two police officers in a car versus one.

my 38 cents.

[LTb1ow]

Last thing I want is some cowboy playing police officer. Let the police be the police. I'd rather see the money/effort required to implement and maintain such a program be put towards more police on the street in needed areas or putting two police officers in a car versus one.

my 38 cents.


Some scary stuff.

[JerzyIroc]

Last thing I want is some cowboy playing police officer. Let the police be the police. I'd rather see the money/effort required to implement and maintain such a program be put towards more police on the street in needed areas or putting two police officers in a car versus one.

my 38 cents.

Ya i think that's the thing that scares me the most. sadly i think THAT would be the biggest problem, people trying to be a hero and making things worse.

[LTb1ow]

I am a hero, I shoot Qs all day.

[Ian]

http://www.gunfacts.info/

all the information is cited as well.