Should the government bailout the American car companies?

[damon_Z]

I haven't been to this forum in a while and I'm surprised to see that there wasn't a post like this around.

Anyway, I am a registered Democrat and voted for O'Bama, because of the important reasons such as his his views on the economy, education, and healthcare, and his outstanding ability to communicate those views. In fact, he's the reason why I got into politics in the first place. However, I am not agreeing with his view to bailout the American car manufacturers. Don't get me wrong, because I have been a fan of domestic high performance cars, but one has to look at the bigger picture here. I mean, how can the government bailout (or even think about) bailing out companies with bad business models? or bailing people for being irresponsible enough to take out adjustable-rate mortgages?

I say, let the Big Three fail. Let them go into Chapter 11 and reorganize. Let them renegotiate their contract with the UAW, the heavy-ass anchor that's keeping these companies from being more competitive with their foreign competition. Then, they can come out of Chapter 11 and focus on becoming more profitable.

What do you think?

[WildBillyT]

Damon:

Just an FYI- we don't allow political discussions in here anymore, but since this is more about the plight of the American auto industry I think it should stay.

To all-

Please leave the partisan bickering and garbage out of this and keep the discussion on the auto industry or it will be deleted as per forum rules.

Thanks.

[LTb1ow]

But if they do fall to pieces, whats to stop a company like Toyota etc from buying up the pieces?

[Frosty]

If the dip****s on Wall Street are getting bailed out then so should the Big 3.

[BigAls87Z28]

Chap 11 means Chap 7 within a month.

GM must be bailed out, but GM's part of teh 25 billion will give them enough money to get them to the end of Jan.
The south is not in support of this, and I think overall Republicans are against it, which goes hand in hand now. The south does not like the disadvantage it would give the import companies who have set up shop down there giving the northerners a bail out.
This is not politics as usual and they somehow magically come together and pass it at the last moment. The Republican Party seriously wants the unions destroyed and this they have realised this is the first chance they have had in 30 years to do it. And having lost both houses and the Presidency, it's simply too inviting for them not to savour this rare victory for their cause.

If GM does not get a bail out, GM will have no choice but to file Chap 11, which will turn right into Chap 7. This is exactly what we dont want.
A bail out must happen now. This money would keep them moving for a few more months untill a larger and stronger bail out package is put together.

If GM makes it out of this alive, they will need to cut everything to make vehicles, all vehicles, profitable.

[alamantia]

A lot of the revinew in Michigan depends on the auto industry. Also, are american car companies failing because they make bad financial decisions like wall street or because everyone is buying hondas now? I think american car manufacturers screwed themselves by making chit boxes in the 80's and 90's look how crappy 3rd gens are. My 91 RS almost detered me from buying another american car. Now we make good cars americans should start buying american productis again in time.

[BigAls87Z28]

My 87 and my 72 are still solid cars, neither are falling apart.

But what they made then, and what they make now are two very different animals.
Americans dont know that.
I dont understand how in general people will accept an improvement in quality ratings from companies like Hyundai, but will downplay any major advancements made by the American automakers.

More people need to stop by a domestic auto maker and see what they have to offer instead of just going right to a ToyHon dealer.

[WildBillyT]

A lot of the revinew in Michigan depends on the auto industry. Also, are american car companies failing because they make bad financial decisions like wall street or because everyone is buying hondas now? I think american car manufacturers screwed themselves by making chit boxes in the 80's and 90's look how crappy 3rd gens are. My 91 RS almost detered me from buying another american car. Now we make good cars americans should start buying american productis again in time.

I think buying American overall is still frowned upon. There are people here at my work who wouldn't even consider buying an American car.

Much like people who only drink imported beer. Doesn't matter if the beer tastes awesome- if it's American, that means its crap.

[GP99GT]

I am a registered Democrat and voted for O'Bama

you voted for someone and dont even know how to spell his name?

anyway, bailout, yes, but make sure its spent the right way...not just to prolong the inevitable

[damon_Z]

Chap 11 means Chap 7 within a month.



Not all Chapter 11 companies end up in Chapter 7 (complete liquidation).

[BonzoHansen]

It is not a yes/no question. I’d vote yes BUT…….

I don’t believe chp 11 = chp 7 in a month. No way. However I think this mess is a direct result of the housing/Freddie/Fannie fiasco. Therefore perhaps some assistance may be warranted given the correct provisions.

I’ve got a new plan. Instead of giving it to the companies, lets look at things form “we’re going to pay one way or another” view

* Fully fund the VEBAs so the UAW can take over retiree HC (unless forcing them to Medicare is cheaper, then do that & throw billions at Medicare)
* Over fund the pension plan and punt it to the PBGC so they can take over the retiree pensions.
* Freeze the pension plan; offer only 401k plan, also no more health benefits at retirement. There would of course need to be some grandfathered participants and all to deal with based on seniority, etc. –
* FORCIBLY buy out anyone within 5 years of retirement at full benefit + 65% salary for time from now until retirement age. No UI.
* Offer scaled down buyouts to other employees.
* Any ptp left with earned pension credits put equivalent cash in their 401k and that is all, no more pension liability for any active employee

Retiree $$ problems gone. We’re going to pay them one way or another, might was well do it right. Oh yeah….

* Cap all total comp for any employee (from the CEO to BiGal) at $500k max until profitability is restored for 4 straight quarters. I may be swayed to allow high priced options ($30 strike price?) to upper management.
* Force ½ of the Directors out. Chrysler is a strange bird being a private firm, but I’m guessing a similar deal can be cut.
* Pay the costs of getting rid of all idle plants/assets - that is a big deal, given cleanup, etc. Spin it as an EPA win.
* Any $$ left? Pay the costs of getting rid of PMD/Buick/GMC/Mercury/(dodge?)

Move on, good luck.

[damon_Z]

you voted for someone and dont even know how to spell his name?

anyway, bailout, yes, but make sure its spent the right way...not just to prolong the inevitable

A petty question and besides the point...

[BonzoHansen]

Not all Chapter 11 companies end up in Chapter 7 (complete liquidation).

Airlines generaly didn't.

[BigAls87Z28]

Not all Chapter 11 companies end up in Chapter 7 (complete liquidation).

It is not a yes/no question. I’d vote yes BUT…….

I don’t believe chp 11 = chp 7 in a month. No way. However I think this mess is a direct result of the housing/Freddie/Fannie fiasco. Therefore perhaps some assistance may be warranted given the correct provisions.


GuyM over on CZ28.com


Chapter 11 would hold creditors at bay while GM reorganizes. The problem is that if GM declared bankruptcy, it would never recover.

The news would scare off any remaining customers. Only the people who would buy GM stocks out of loyalty (and watch their money evaporate by over 90% in less than 12 months) would purchase GM cars at that point. There will be plenty of other automakers to give hard earned $20K & $30K+ where there are no doubts about their ability to stick around for most of the warranty.

But just as important, the company has to have the potential of regaining solvancy. By right, GM should have investors eager to buy controling interests in or even buy out GM. Regardless as to where the stocks are, GM has a large amount of assets that can be sold off. However, there's no one, and with good reason. GM's debt is far greater than it's assets. While GM will likely find takers as they themselves sell off parts, no one is banking on GM as a whole due to those debts.

In the midst of all this, suppliers could simply stop delivering to GM and demand payment. Especially if they even thought GM was going to declare bankruptcy (they would get only a fraction of money owed under bankruptcy, and even then the timetable for repayment would be uncertain).

Nobody can buy GM, and bankruptcy (even involuntary, which can be done via creditors) will do no good, and infact will enflame things even more.


But the thing about Chapter 11 bankruptcy is that it's going to take money to reorganize. Money that GM doesn't have & money that no one will lend them (which is where a government backed loan would fit in). It's at this time GM would likely move to Chapter 7 Liqudation, and GM would be sold off in parts, with overdue payments to venders likely to be the first place the money goes.


I’ve got a new plan. Instead of giving it to the companies, lets look at things form “we’re going to pay one way or another” view

* Fully fund the VEBAs so the UAW can take over retiree HC (unless forcing them to Medicare is cheaper, then do that & throw billions at Medicare)
* Over fund the pension plan and punt it to the PBGC so they can take over the retiree pensions.
* Freeze the pension plan; offer only 401k plan, also no more health benefits at retirement. There would of course need to be some grandfathered participants and all to deal with based on seniority, etc. –
* FORCIBLY buy out anyone within 5 years of retirement at full benefit + 65% salary for time from now until retirement age. No UI.
* Offer scaled down buyouts to other employees.
* Any ptp left with earned pension credits put equivalent cash in their 401k and that is all, no more pension liability for any active employee

Retiree $$ problems gone. We’re going to pay them one way or another, might was well do it right. Oh yeah….

* Cap all total comp for any employee (from the CEO to BiGal) at $500k max until profitability is restored for 4 straight quarters. I may be swayed to allow high priced options ($30 strike price?) to upper management.
* Force ½ of the Directors out. Chrysler is a strange bird being a private firm, but I’m guessing a similar deal can be cut.
* Pay the costs of getting rid of all idle plants/assets - that is a big deal, given cleanup, etc. Spin it as an EPA win.
* Any $$ left? Pay the costs of getting rid of PMD/Buick/GMC/Mercury/(dodge?)

Move on, good luck.


GM has made some serious moves to save a lot of money, but they wont see that till 2010.

GM would need a bail out the size of the one AIG got in order to enjoy the rest of 2009.

It would cost GM 2 billion per dealer, but they dont have to kill all the dealers.
Pontiac is on its way out, so you move Saturn over to the former PBG dealers. That gives Saturn more dealers, that makes dealers happy that they didnt lose any cars, in fact get a FULL LINE again.
Buick is doing well in China, as is Chevy. GM needs to figure out how to make a profit on these cars, not just trucks.
GM's problem isnt sales numbers, its profit.

[cdacda13]

Much like people who only drink imported beer. Doesn't matter if the beer tastes awesome- if it's American, that means its crap.

Sadly, its true. Most Americans believe that if its forgien, its better in one way or another then American. (Better could mean cheaper too)
Reputation is a huge factor is the current situation the Big 3 is in right now. When people think Honda, most think of cheap and durable. Even if you could buy brand new car from one of the Big 3 that is the same price and have the quality, most people will go with the Honda. Every car company has a reputation or image, that people automatically think of when the name is mentioned. The more car oriented crowd knows that every brand has its positives and negatives, but unfortunately, most Americans don't.
Now, America isn't the only problem here. GM can't seem to sell cars outside the U.S. Is this due to poor reputation, or due to poor marketing? Almost every GM fanboy will admit that GM's advertising sucks extremely hard.

Should we let the Big 3 pass? Well, Adam Smith's capitalism would say yes. Companies would die, and if their service was deemed important enough, some other company would take over their market share and be more efficient and productive.
But, that Laizze Fair (Spelling is way off, been a while since my last economics class) attitude leads to huge ups and huge downs in the economy. See the great depression and even the current market meltdown as examples of this. So the government should regulate businesses to prevent that from happening.

Sometimes you have to stick a penny in an electrical socket to learn a lesson. This is where we are at with GM. Let them fall, and either they will learn how to pick themselves up and realize their mistakes and make a comeback in a few years, or they will continue to make the same mistakes and soon be deemed unnecessary by the markets and replaced.

[WildBillyT]

Sometimes you have to stick a penny in an electrical socket to learn a lesson. This is where we are at with GM. Let them fall, and either they will learn how to pick themselves up and realize their mistakes and make a comeback in a few years, or they will continue to make the same mistakes and soon be deemed unnecessary by the markets and replaced.

The problem is that you can't look at it as teaching corporate fat cats a lesson (may not be what you meant but that is how it seems to me). If GM takes a dive, entire towns and regions of the country will be in financial despair. Not good.

[Tsar]

I feel bad for the people who have to lose their jobs because of idiots in charge. If it was up to me, I probably wouldn't bail them out. Its an iffy situation, one part of me says they should be bailed out, and the other part says let them go under like they're suppose to for being retards, and not looking forward.

[BonzoHansen]

Al, that is why I am saying use the bailout $$ to do all that-the don't have the cash now Can't give it to them - I do not trust them.

Al, if GM goes under, are we going to have to put you on suicide watch?

[NastyEllEssWon]

without being political...



the american auto companies helped give a face to america. its time america repays them for their image.

[Tsar]

Al, if GM goes under, are we going to have to put you on suicide watch?

I think he will go ape **** if Camaro doesn't come out.

[Tsar]

without being political...



the american auto companies helped give a face to america. its time america repays them for their image.

American people gave them plenty of money, they wasted it.

[Featherburner]

The problem is that you can't look at it as teaching corporate fat cats a lesson (may not be what you meant but that is how it seems to me). If GM takes a dive, entire towns and regions of the country will be in financial despair. Not good.
I heard today "one out of every ten jobs in this country are related to the auto industry." That's a lot of jobs. We need to keep the big 3 afloat.

[NastyEllEssWon]

American people gave them plenty of money, they wasted it.




actually americans have long sinced abandoned the car companies since the mid 90s. american auto makers hardly make any type of money, which was the idea behind global parts sharing and platforms


edit: gm killed the camaro...how awesome would it be if the 'neu' gen never sees the light of day.

[NJSPEEDER]

The short answer is that the nation can not afford to lose the million plus jobs that it would cost if the big3 went under. They are all in trouble, Chrysler worse than Ford and GM.

We have lost enough manufacturing and development jobs in this country through inefficient labor policies, it was only a matter of time before the related lame marketing and R&D broke the camels back.

I don't think the airline bailout and subsequent annual kick backs are directly related. The airline industry has been propped up and ****ed over by the government in rotating cycles for decades. Regulation is not always the best thing for industry, just ask all the dead airlines about government price fixing policies that drove dozens of second tier companies under.

-Tim

[79CamaroDiva]

I think they should be bailed out, restructure as bonzo said, and the government should offer huge sales tax breaks to purchasers of american cars, while increasing tax on foreign cars. i think to a lot of people, that tax saved might sway their purchase.

[LTb1ow]

All this money for bailouts, where is it coming from?

[WildBillyT]

I think they should be bailed out, restructure as bozo said, and the government should offer huge sales tax breaks to purchasers of american cars, while increasing tax on foreign cars. i think to a lot of people, that tax saved might sway their purchase.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Our exports are so heavily taxed when entering other countries, why not try and fire that back.

[Tsar]

actually americans have long sinced abandoned the car companies since the mid 90s. american auto makers hardly make any type of money, which was the idea behind global parts sharing and platforms


edit: gm killed the camaro...how awesome would it be if the 'neu' gen never sees the light of day. If they were completely abandoned they would have gone under before 2008. They simply didn't produce anything that people wanted; or thought it would fall apart.

My step dad had an exploder, engine and tranny went at different times while the car was on a 36 month lease. Do you think my parents were enthusiastic about buying another American car after that? It took me a fair amount of time to convince my mother to look at Caddy's, eventually she did and bought one, but if that thing ever breaks I doubt ANY of the the big 3 will see my parent's money ever again. It only takes ONE screw up for someone not to buy product from you, and the big 3 has done it on more than one occasion.

Me on the other hand; well I can't wait to get my CTS :lol:

[Tsar]

All this money for bailouts, where is it coming from?
Printing press.

[LTb1ow]

Well I guess that means gas will keep going down.

[NJSPEEDER]

I think they should be bailed out, restructure as bozo said, and the government should offer huge sales tax breaks to purchasers of american cars, while increasing tax on foreign cars. i think to a lot of people, that tax saved might sway their purchase.

The auto industry doesn't really need "tax breaks" so to speak, the government just needs to get rid of many of the stupid taxes that are special, just for the auto industry.

1. If you buy a car anywhere in the world you have to pay your home states sales tax to register it, why? This is not done with any other item of any kind, why would you prevent anyone from saving their hard earned on something so expensive?

2. Luxury tax on your way to get to work? Funny, I can buy a $30million home and pay the same tax rate as someone buying a $100k home, but if I want a car that cost $40k or more or a truck that costs $50k or more, I get stabbed in the eye with an extra 2%. WTF?

3. Gas Guzzler Tax. If a "passenger vehicle"(something that the government can't define clearly but is wiling to tax) gets under MPG tier X, you get to pay extra percentage on it Y. Sound like fun? Cause the taxes start at 25 MPG depending what kind of vehicle it is. BTW, a quad cab Colorado is a "passenger vehicle" but a standard cab is a "compact truck", according to the government, one taxed, one not. lol

If they made cars just like everything else, just paying sales tax where ever you buy it and call it a day, the savings to consumers would be hundreds of millions a year. Wanna encourage the economy, make it so people can afford to shop for big ticket items that employ dozens of people at a time to manufacture.

/rant

-Tim

[WildBillyT]

If they were completely abandoned they would have gone under before 2008. They simply didn't produce anything that people wanted; or thought it would fall apart.

My step dad had an exploder, engine and tranny went at different times while the car was on a 36 month lease. Do you think my parents were enthusiastic about buying another American car after that? It took me a fair amount of time to convince my mother to look at Caddy's, eventually she did and bought one, but if that thing ever breaks I doubt ANY of the the big 3 will see my parent's money ever again. It only takes ONE screw up for someone not to buy product from you, and the big 3 has done it on more than one occasion.

Me on the other hand; well I can't wait to get my CTS :lol:

I think the fact that they are American vehicles lends people to give them a lot less rope.

Example:

I know somebody with a Civic Si with the weird shift issue (where you can't push it into 3rd because the trans synchros are poorly designed). He changed the fluid to some form of Amsoil synthetic and is just dealing with the issue. As a matter of fact, a lot of owners of that car are taking it in stride. If it had been an American car there would be a huge deal about how much the manufacturer sucks and how they can't build a good car.

Toyota pickups had a similar deal. I know somebody who owned one of the Tacomas with the frame rust issue. I crawled under it (a '99) and the frame rails looked worse than the ones on my '69 when I first got it. I could push my finger through the frame. But that driver, and many others, still liked the Tacoma and would be willing to buy another one in spite of the fact that it rusted away in less than 10 years.

Both of these are big issues that would have a big impact on brand image and consumer confidence if it wasn't for the fact that these aren't American cars.

[BigAls87Z28]

This is a serious problem with trade when you compare how Japan is allowed to just come into the US without any major restrictions, vs how the Japanese goverment has done to keep everyone out.

I can see that if GM was just going about normal business, pushing suv's and trucks and forgetting about being part of the problem, making subpar cars, etc etc.

[WildBillyT]

This is a serious problem with trade when you compare how Japan is allowed to just come into the US without any major restrictions, vs how the Japanese goverment has done to keep everyone out.



I think that's where Melissa and I were going with the tax stuff.

[NJSPEEDER]

This is a serious problem with trade when you compare how Japan is allowed to just come into the US without any major restrictions, vs how the Japanese goverment has done to keep everyone out.

I can see that if GM was just going about normal business, pushing suv's and trucks and forgetting about being part of the problem, making subpar cars, etc etc.

The Japanese companies ARE American companies now. They build their cars here and took on a position of strengthening themselves from with in when they ran into trouble. If you look at supply lines, more "American" car models pay import tariffs than the "Foreign" brands do.

They are saving themselves money on all of the protective tariffs that the government has had in place since the 60's to try to keep them out.

American union labor is what needs the attitude check, but no one with the power to influence change has the balls to stand up to them.

-Tim

[Tsar]

I think the fact that they are American vehicles lends people to give them a lot less rope.

Example:

I know somebody with a Civic Si with the weird shift issue (where you can't push it into 3rd because the trans synchros are poorly designed). He changed the fluid to some form of Amsoil synthetic and is just dealing with the issue. As a matter of fact, a lot of owners of that car are taking it in stride. If it had been an American car there would be a huge deal about how much the manufacturer sucks and how they can't build a good car.

Toyota pickups had a similar deal. I know somebody who owned one of the Tacomas with the frame rust issue. I crawled under it (a '99) and the frame rails looked worse than the ones on my '69 when I first got it. I could push my finger through the frame. But that driver, and many others, still liked the Tacoma and would be willing to buy another one in spite of the fact that it rusted away in less than 10 years.

Both of these are big issues that would have a big impact on brand image and consumer confidence if it wasn't for the fact that these aren't American cars.

I'm familiar with the Tacoma rust issue, and yea its pretty big :lol:. The other one though I never heard about, but maybe its because I was never on any honda boards.

I won't say how other people judge cars, because I do not speak for other people, I'll just speak about my experiences. My mother had no preconceived notions about American cars - Ford was the first car she owned (well my dad owned it but it was shared, you know) and it was the last. I can tell you that with that particular car they had experienced more problems than Mitsubishi Montero Sport, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Nissan Sentra, and Cadillac SRX COMBINED. Besides Caddy, all the other cards were leased, and have NEVER had one problem, never seen the inside of the dealership after they were bought.

The only car to rival Ford in breaking down would be my F-body :lol: but it's old so I don't judge it as harsh as I would a brand new lease car.

Just like I said before, one bad experience can forever ruin something for you. At least to some people.

[BigAls87Z28]

Im watching Fast Money on CNBC, and they are strongly against this without some serious targets for them to reach.
They also want change at the top. Ford has already changed CEO's, Chrysler is private, but GM has done little to change its board.
While I think Rick has done a great job for what he was left with, he is not the man for the job anymore. There needs to be a paradigm shift inside GM that would reach down to every single person employeed by GM. He or She must be given the ability to make changes without red tape, without any problems.

There needs to be a change in the Goverment's role in domestic auto makers lives. Import automakers want to build cars here in the US? They must pay the workers the same as the UAW workers are paid, as well as supply benifits to thoes workers that are equal to the UAW.
Imported vehicles should be hit with a small tariff to match the price of the benifits of current workers for the UAW. That would keep pricing on a level field, and not give any benifit for the Imports making cars here in the US and the UAW made cars.
That will level the field, level the pricing, and level the profits that the Japanese companies make on just currency manipulation alone.
America should invest in GM and Ford for making green vehicle programs as well, and that will give America a return on investment by decreasing dependence on oil, keeping America strong, and keeping America's manufacturing strong.

[Tsar]

Im watching Fast Money on CNBC, and they are strongly against this without some serious targets for them to reach.
They also want change at the top. Ford has already changed CEO's, Chrysler is private, but GM has done little to change its board.
While I think Rick has done a great job for what he was left with, he is not the man for the job anymore. There needs to be a paradigm shift inside GM that would reach down to every single person employeed by GM. He or She must be given the ability to make changes without red tape, without any problems.

There needs to be a change in the Goverment's role in domestic auto makers lives. Import automakers want to build cars here in the US? They must pay the workers the same as the UAW workers are paid, as well as supply benifits to thoes workers that are equal to the UAW.
Imported vehicles should be hit with a small tariff to match the price of the benifits of current workers for the UAW. That would keep pricing on a level field, and not give any benifit for the Imports making cars here in the US and the UAW made cars.
That will level the field, level the pricing, and level the profits that the Japanese companies make on just currency manipulation alone.
America should invest in GM and Ford for making green vehicle programs as well, and that will give America a return on investment by decreasing dependence on oil, keeping America strong, and keeping America's manufacturing strong.
So you want other companies to fail too, just like the big 3 will?

[BigAls87Z28]

So you want other companies to fail too, just like the big 3 will?

Not at all. It would level the field, and would make the import companies start giving back to America via healthcare programs and retirement programs.

GM has made major moves in reducing its UAW problems, but like I said, that wont be seen till 2010.
If Toyota were to give its American work force, which is 1/10th of what GM has in America, it would do much more for AMERICA then help GM or make Toyota fail.
Im not talking about supporing millions of retired employees, Im talking about supporting thier current work force to match the average UAW worker's benifits.

[mc73nova]

I think one of the biggest problems American car companies have are their sales approach.

For example my truck was purchased for $34,5xx in May, a few months later you would be able to purchase that same vehicle for $27,5xx because of their employee discount pricing. Another example is the Trailblazer SS usually around $40k for the 3SS(Fully Loaded w/all the goodies) with the employee discount pricing it was $26k. The point I'm trying to make is, MAYBE and I am just saying MAYBE, the American people are sick of paying such high prices for vehicles only to be reminded every so often that they could have got it for thousands less if they had better timing. I myself wasn't to thrilled but its too late and I can't change what is already done.

Every car company has sales pitches and "great deals" but the import company's never offer "employee pricing" therefore people will feel like they are getting what they pay for. American companies would benefit if they offered their low prices on a daily basis not when they are struggling and need to make sales. I'm sure I am not the only one that feels this way, I personally will be hesitant "IF" I purchase another American vehicle just for that fact.

[BigAls87Z28]

I think one of the biggest problems American car companies have are their sales approach.

For example my truck was purchased for $34,5xx in May, a few months later you would be able to purchase that same vehicle for $27,5xx because of their employee discount pricing. Another example is the Trailblazer SS usually around $40k for the 3SS(Fully Loaded w/all the goodies) with the employee discount pricing it was $26k. The point I'm trying to make is, MAYBE and I am just saying MAYBE, the American people are sick of paying such high prices for vehicles only to be reminded every so often that they could have got it for thousands less if they had better timing. I myself wasn't to thrilled but its too late and I can't change what is already done.

Every car company has sales pitches and "great deals" but the import company's never offer "employee pricing" therefore people will feel like they are getting what they pay for. American companies would benefit if they offered their low prices on a daily basis not when they are struggling and need to make sales. I'm sure I am not the only one that feels this way, I personally will be hesitant "IF" I purchase another American vehicle just for that fact.


Well, Employee Pricing is no different they any other rebate campaign run by anyone.

If you buy any product when its no on sale, dont be mad when it does go on sale.

Employee pricing hurts GM just as much as it helped them. Its a tool, but it also grabs a lot of future sales as well, which hurts thier numbers in a short term. People that were waiting for a big sale, or looking around, this pushed a lot of people into showrooms. Its a short term sale surge that doesnt do much for the long run.

[Tsar]

Not at all. It would level the field, and would make the import companies start giving back to America via healthcare programs and retirement programs.

GM has made major moves in reducing its UAW problems, but like I said, that wont be seen till 2010.
If Toyota were to give its American work force, which is 1/10th of what GM has in America, it would do much more for AMERICA then help GM or make Toyota fail.
Im not talking about supporing millions of retired employees, Im talking about supporting thier current work force to match the average UAW worker's benifits.

If Toyota workers are working at a lower wage than GM workers it's at their own will, no? Is anyone making them work for Toyota? Why is everyone suppose to be equal? it sound awfully communistic, at least to me. Life isn't fair, neither is business, if one company can't cope with what it has done than maybe it's time for them to go. :shrug:

[Tsar]

Well, Employee Pricing is no different they any other rebate campaign run by anyone.

If you buy any product when its no on sale, dont be mad when it does go on sale.

Employee pricing hurts GM just as much as it helped them. Its a tool, but it also grabs a lot of future sales as well, which hurts thier numbers in a short term. People that were waiting for a big sale, or looking around, this pushed a lot of people into showrooms. Its a short term sale surge that doesnt do much for the long run.
Ahh, saved me the typing. My parents will never buy a car unless it is around some holiday, for obvious reasons. I will be following the same strategy most likely. If i hit it"big" great, if not - well at least I got some kind of "deal".

[BigAls87Z28]

If Toyota workers are working at a lower wage than GM workers it's at their own will, no? Is anyone making them work for Toyota? Why is everyone suppose to be equal? it sound awfully communistic, at least to me. Life isn't fair, neither is business, if one company can't cope with what it has done than maybe it's time for them to go. :shrug:

No one is making them work there, and Im not saying pay the SAME wages as the UAW has worked out.
Actually, the UAW's starting hour rate is dropping in 2010, another big thing that GM must be around for.

Whats communistic about having foriegn companies taking advantage of our generocity and we have to level the field?
Is it a shade of protectionisim? Sure is. Its worked for Europe, its working for Japan, and its working for China.
So why is America the ONLY country giving foriegn companies the keys to the country when American companies are behind the 8 ball not only in America, but abroad.

Take the morgage bail out of 700 billion. We are giving money to banks, and to other companies buying up smaller banks so they can get a hand out!! AIG is chewing through billions and billions, and nothing is done!!
No one is stopping the bleeding, banks are still not lending, people are not spending money.
GM wants 1/3 of 25 billion dollars to survive and move foward and become profitable. ****, AIG burned through 25 billion in just the last week.


Ahh, saved me the typing. My parents will never buy a car unless it is around some holiday, for obvious reasons. I will be following the same strategy most likely. If i hit it"big" great, if not - well at least I got some kind of "deal".

Lots of people wait for this, and there are surges around them.

[BonzoHansen]

The UAW needs to push the changes to today. Minimum.

[BigAls87Z28]

Goverment needs to be smarter on the Automaker bail out, no doubt.
With the Big 3 CEO's giong before congress tomorrow, they should work with suppliers and the UAW, and there must be changes made asap.
Or the Goverment gives GM the money to buy out the UAW, or puts 40b into VEBA asap, as well as moving foward with consessions made for 2010.
IMO, total bail out package for the Big 3 should be upwards of 100B.

[NJSPEEDER]

The problem that the UAW faces is a matter of internal politics. Their leadership, just like our government, is largely elected. So you have to put yourself in teh position of the main line worker with in the union, are you gonna vote for the guy who is telling you to cut back, expect less for the next few years, and benefit in the long run, or the guy who is going to act more like Scott Boris and go after every company they can for every penny they can get?

It would benefit the primary, labor level, UAW member to think more long term, but just like the rest of the population in America, they are brainwashed into the what can you do for me now, give me more, immediate satisfaction mentality that has pushed the costs of labor in every industry in the country.

-Tim

[mc73nova]

The need for a car might not be the same time as when the sale actually takes place. If you have the opportunity to plan for when you purchase your next vehicle you definitely have the upper hand, not everyone has that luxury.

There a lot of people on here that would fight for the bail out of the American car companies, so I will say no more because I don't feel like getting into an endless debate. I am not saying I want to see this country struggle anymore than it has and I feel bad for people that lose their jobs because of the economy(I am one of them) but we "Americans" are the reason why we are in this situation.

[BigAls87Z28]

If the Big 3 go out, it will put this country into such a defenseless position, and send this world into a tail spin, that it would be the end of America as we know it.
What we have seen so far is a decline of about .3% GDP.
The death of the Big 3 would be a drop in 4% GDP alone.
America would jump right into another depression, and our country would fall apart.

[NJSPEEDER]

but we "Americans" are the reason why we are in this situation.

That is the greatest single line of truth that I have read about this topic on any forum. Very well stated.

-Tim

[pound]

As much as I am a GM fan, I have to say that I am against bailouts for anyone. Not for Wall Street, not for the big three, not for consumers with too much credit card debt. Rewarding failure never works out well. By giving handouts the government is giving any company with a failing business model an excuse to put their hand out. If one or more of the American car companies fails someone else will step up to fill the void. Its not like people are going to be able to not buy a car just because GM or Ford doesn't sell cars anymore.

[79CamaroDiva]

As much as I am a GM fan, I have to say that I am against bailouts for anyone. Not for Wall Street, not for the big three, not for consumers with too much credit card debt. Rewarding failure never works out well. By giving handouts the government is giving any company with a failing business model an excuse to put their hand out. If one or more of the American car companies fails someone else will step up to fill the void. Its not like people are going to be able to not buy a car just because GM or Ford doesn't sell cars anymore.

I understand this reasoning, and if it were a smaller company i would agree. But simply put, if American auto manufacturers go out of business, I will be looking for a house in another country, because this country will go into a depression worse than the Great Depression. Back then, they didn't rely on foreign anything. Food and essentials were still made at home. That is not the case anymore. We rely on so many imported goods, that once ANOTHER 10% of american jobs are lost, we will not be able to hold our own as a country. The unemployment rate will raise to 16.5% (assuming, 10% more than the 6.5 it is already increasing from). That is completely ludicrous, and unrecoverable. I don't want to bail out the companies, but unfortunately, we need to keep our people employed.

[pound]

I understand this reasoning, and if it were a smaller company i would agree. But simply put, if American auto manufacturers go out of business, I will be looking for a house in another country, because this country will go into a depression worse than the Great Depression. Back then, they didn't rely on foreign anything. Food and essentials were still made at home. That is not the case anymore. We rely on so many imported goods, that once ANOTHER 10% of american jobs are lost, we will not be able to hold our own as a country. The unemployment rate will raise to 16.5% (assuming, 10% more than the 6.5 it is already increasing from). That is completely ludicrous, and unrecoverable. I don't want to bail out the companies, but unfortunately, we need to keep our people employed.

You are basing your unemployment numbers on the assumption that 100% of the jobs from the big three will go overseas. Foreign automakers already have numerous plants in this country and would likely simply expand those operations to fill the void created by a domestic auto company failure.

[LS1Hawk]

I don't know if it's been said yet because I haven't read through all these posts, but 1 in 13 jobs in the US - not out of auto jobs, out of every job - are tied to the US Auto industry. Can you imagine the ramifications if the US auto industry crumbles? You're talking MILLIONS of jobs lost. It would be like a virus that cannot be contained. The Big 3 need help and I'm for a bailout. But, the bigwigs need to go, i.e. Tricky Dick Wagoner. And something has to be done about the UAW...they've been riding the gravy train for too long. That's the one thing that worries me...all the money ends up being just a bailout for the UAW.

[Tsar]

No one is making them work there, and Im not saying pay the SAME wages as the UAW has worked out.
Well my bad for not reading your mind, because here it clearly state "the same".

They must pay the workers the same as the UAW workers are paid, as well as supply benifits to thoes workers that are equal to the UAW.
I

Actually, the UAW's starting hour rate is dropping in 2010, another big thing that GM must be around for. Irrelevant, GM will run out of money by the end of this year.

Whats communistic about having foriegn companies taking advantage of our generocity and we have to level the field?
Is it a shade of protectionisim? Sure is. Its worked for Europe, its working for Japan, and its working for China. What is not communist about making everyone across the board pay the same wage to their workers as GM does, others didn't get themselves into that mess- why should they suffer?


So why is America the ONLY country giving foriegn companies the keys to the country when American companies are behind the 8 ball not only in America, but abroad. They ruined their own reputation by producing subpar product; now the consumer does not want anything to do with them, and you are asking who is to blame?

Take the morgage bail out of 700 billion. We are giving money to banks, and to other companies buying up smaller banks so they can get a hand out!! AIG is chewing through billions and billions, and nothing is done!!
No one is stopping the bleeding, banks are still not lending, people are not spending money.
GM wants 1/3 of 25 billion dollars to survive and move foward and become profitable. ****, AIG burned through 25 billion in just the last week. Is there a point in there some where or do you just wanna bitch and moan about GM not getting the 25 billion?

Surely we are not paying out of our own pocket right now, but correct me if I'm wrong (anyone); printing trillions of dollars will result in inflation, which will greatly reduce the buying power of the dollar, which in turn will make it worthless if we start printing money like Zimbabwe ( you know that everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire, right?). Retirement, savings, insurance, pensions, and annuities will go to crap; in addition you will be able to buy less food and clothing. And you think if companies will compensate with higher wages, well you are wrong again, your money will depreciate faster than any raise you will ever get, which in turn will make you piss poor. Wages will take years to catch up. So how much do you want to live in Zimbabwe and be a millionaire?

Yay for the bailout...


P.S. I forgot to add, protecting the national manufacturer does not always work, if people believe that they are producing an inferior product they will not buy anyways. No matter how much you tax "the bad guy".

[LTb1ow]

Yay for the bailout...

yay for cheap gas!

[Tsar]

yay for cheap gas!
yes because cheaper gas was a result of the bailout...

[NJSPEEDER]

You are basing your unemployment numbers on the assumption that 100% of the jobs from the big three will go overseas. Foreign automakers already have numerous plants in this country and would likely simply expand those operations to fill the void created by a domestic auto company failure.

That numeric assumption is based on the jobs vanishing. We aren't talking about the big 3 having to move, we are talking about the risk of them leaving the earth's economy in every way, shape, and form.

I am sure the other manufacturers would be aable to pick up a small percentage of the newly unemployed, but so many jobs would be gone that it would not be of any help to the economy.

-Tim

[BigAls87Z28]

You are basing your unemployment numbers on the assumption that 100% of the jobs from the big three will go overseas. Foreign automakers already have numerous plants in this country and would likely simply expand those operations to fill the void created by a domestic auto company failure.

You are clearly retarded.
No way, no how, could the foreign auto makers come close to filling any void left from the colapse of the Big 3.
No jobs will go overseas. No jobs will go to the other automakers.
The Big 3 will stop being. Thier major suppliers, who are already cash strapped, will go out of business.
And to throw a shocker at you...thoes same suppliers ALSO supply to the foreign automakers!! DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!!
That means that the foreign auto makers will not be able to get its supplies for thier cars.
Lets not forget that 3 million people will be out of a job, draining TRILLIONS out of the goverment. MORE forclosures, more credit defaults, more banking issues, which means less spending on everything because more people are losing thier jobs.
Worst case, America is done. Everything you know, everything that people have died for, will be gone. Revolution perhaps? Who knows. Perhaps there will be increased domestic terrorist attacks on Import factories in the south.
Is that a bit extreme? Yeah.

So, is throwing the Big 3 a few billion dollars THAT bad? No.
Is it more benificial then throwing a trillion dollars to a bunch of banks, in where they are just doing what they will with the money right now. Buying up other banks, spending millions on bonus packages, golden parachuets, and the banks are doing nothing to stop the bleeding.
The goverment should have bought up the failed morgages, refinanced, and tried to keep people in thier houses.
Nope, keep on giving AIG 50 billion at a time, and they keep squadering it. Good idea Goverment!!
But GM, who has a legit problem, ef you because you didnt support the GOP.

[Tsar]

That numeric assumption is based on the jobs vanishing. We aren't talking about the big 3 having to move, we are talking about the risk of them leaving the earth's economy in every way, shape, and form.

I am sure the other manufacturers would be aable to pick up a small percentage of the newly unemployed, but so many jobs would be gone that it would not be of any help to the economy.

-Tim
Well, shocker, they will have to find jobs in something else besides the auto industry.

[LTb1ow]

yes because cheaper gas was a result of the bailout...

Well you were talking about the depreciation on the dollar and since the price of gas is based on the dollar, yes, it was relevant. The Zimbabwe comment, yea.

[Tsar]

Well you were talking about the depreciation on the dollar and since the price of gas is based on the dollar, yes, it was relevant. The Zimbabwe comment, yea.

Um..pretty sure inflation makes prices go up not down (have you went food shopping recently?), and gas went down because of the reduced demand for it, and spiraling down economy - not printing more money...

Oh I forgot another thing that making the gas go down... speculators.

[NJSPEEDER]

Well, shocker, they will have to find jobs in something else besides the auto industry.

Where?

We are not just talking about jobs directly in the auto industry. If the manufacturers go under, you reduce the need for coal(it still powers most steel mills) and steel, so all those miners are out of work, every company that supplies a material, part, or service to the auto industry would be f'ed too. There would just be no way the jobs lost could be absorbed into the economy.

The number of jobs lost would trickle through the rest of the economy with in a few weeks and tear the last life out of the economy for decades to come. America would be the first developed nation in the world to fall back to a below third world economy.

-Tim

[BigAls87Z28]

What is not communist about making everyone across the board pay the same wage to their workers as GM does, others didn't get themselves into that mess- why should they suffer?

Suffer? Why should Americans suffer due to unfair trade advantage?
Why should millions of people be out of a job because of other goverments having a hand in the massive profits that the Japanese have pulled from the US?
Why should America give any advantage to anyone that isnt supporting American GDP?


They ruined their own reputation by producing subpar product; now the consumer does not want anything to do with them, and you are asking who is to blame?

What does past have to do with the present? American consumers are still buying GM product, and with thier advancements in quality vehicles, why stop now?

Is there a point in there some where or do you just wanna bitch and moan about GM not getting the 25 billion?

Point is that the major problem people have with givng the Big 3 25 billion is because they will squader it, but the banks have done nothing but squander.

Surely we are not paying out of our own pocket right now, but correct me if I'm wrong (anyone); printing trillions of dollars will result in inflation, which will greatly reduce the buying power of the dollar, which in turn will make it worthless if we start printing money like Zimbabwe ( you know that everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire, right?). Retirement, savings, insurance, pensions, and annuities will go to crap; in addition you will be able to buy less food and clothing. And you think if companies will compensate with higher wages, well you are wrong again, your money will depreciate faster than any raise you will ever get, which in turn will make you piss poor. Wages will take years to catch up. So how much do you want to live in Zimbabwe and be a millionaire?

The goverment knows how to get out of inflationary situations. Thats the least of thier problems.
Id rather have an inflation problem, then a depression problem.

Yay for the bailout...

Yes, yay for the bailout.

P.S. I forgot to add, protecting the national manufacturer does not always work, if people believe that they are producing an inferior product they will not buy anyways. No matter how much you tax "the bad guy".

Agreed, but we will cross that bridge when we get there. GM has shown it can make class leading product, and has continued to do so.
Hell, for all intents and purposes, the only problem Toyota woudl have would be the lack of profit it would make in North America. It doesnt matter if they take #1 globally, but preventing the profiteering off the kindness of America must end.
As for future foriegn investments, any and all other foreign automakers that want to come to the US must work in conjunction with US automakers, build in US auto plants, giving them a step into America, but keeping them under the control of the US Automakers.

[Tsar]

Where?

We are not just talking about jobs directly in the auto industry. If the manufacturers go under, you reduce the need for coal(it still powers most steel mills) and steel, so all those miners are out of work, every company that supplies a material, part, or service to the auto industry would be f'ed too. There would just be no way the jobs lost could be absorbed into the economy.

The number of jobs lost would trickle through the rest of the economy with in a few weeks and tear the last life out of the economy for decades to come. America would be the first developed nation in the world to fall back to a below third world economy.

-Tim

Well I guess they will have to adopt. That's what people do when times are hard. Will it be hard to find a job, probably, impossible - no. Hell you can work in wall mart, shop rite, do side jobs, landscaping, yard work. Bunch of menial jobs that people do NOT like to think about. At one point, my mother worked 2 jobs for about 4 years with 0 (and i will repeat ZERO) days off. People gotta suck it up and do it, stop bitching and complaining - you know what you need, well go there and get it.

I hate to point this out as an example but my mother came to this country with 50 bucks in her pocket 11 years ago, and didn't know any English. She made it because she knew what she wanted, and knew what she wanted to do - there was no bitching and complaining like I hear from some people there was only work, work, and more damn work. Guess what, it worked.

If one went to any college then go back to it and use their career services, and look for jobs through that. There are thousands of jobs posted on Penn State's website and people are still hiring and coming here for the career fair, BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR JOBS, they will not come to you.

Person that can't find ANY job in today's world is NOT LOOKING HARD ENOUGH.

[Tsar]

Why should millions of people be out of a job because of other goverments having a hand in the massive profits that the Japanese have pulled from the US?
Why should America give any advantage to anyone that isnt supporting American GDP?
You can tax foreign auto all you want, if people believe it is better than American they will still buy it.



What does past have to do with the present? American consumers are still buying GM product, and with thier advancements in quality vehicles, why stop now?

ARE YOU SERIOUS? what does past have to do with present? how about EVERYTHING? My mother will never own a Ford because it broke down every other week. Does ford make better product now? Maybe, will she ever buy it? HELL NO. Ford can be the most reliable car in the world, and she would not touch it with a stick. I suspect she is not the only one. When people have bad experiences they tend to remember them, and well not do the same mistake... I must say WOW again.



Point is that the major problem people have with givng the Big 3 25 billion is because they will squader it, but the banks have done nothing but squander.
Let's just say that big 3 are at the end of the gravy train... no one wants them to have this money now. If they were the first ones like AIG, they would probably get it no problem. But the fact is, they are not. They will waste the money just like everyone else. Go to a spa or some crap. I for one do not want to see more money go to waste.

Part of the problem is the fact that banks squander it, so why should we PRINT MORE MONEY AND WASTE IT ON GM?



The goverment knows how to get out of inflationary situations. Thats the least of thier problems. BS, prices of food have been climbing steadly and nothing has been done. Hell apples used to be (last fall) <2.50 and now they are 4 bucks.

Id rather have an inflation problem, then a depression problem. I would rather have money, and no inflation.



[/QUOTE]

[NJSPEEDER]

Well I guess they will have to adopt. That's what people do when times are hard. Will it be hard to find a job, probably, impossible - no. Hell you can work in wall mart, shop rite, do side jobs, landscaping, yard work. Bunch of menial jobs that people do NOT like to think about. At one point, my mother worked 2 jobs for about 4 years with 0 (and i will repeat ZERO) days off. People gotta suck it up and do it, stop bitching and complaining - you know what you need, well go there and get it.

I hate to point this out as an example but my mother came to this country with 50 bucks in her pocket 11 years ago, and didn't know any English. She made it because she knew what she wanted, and knew what she wanted to do - there was no bitching and complaining like I hear from some people there was only work, work, and more damn work. Guess what, it worked.

If one went to any college then go back to it and use their career services, and look for jobs through that. There are thousands of jobs posted on Penn State's website and people are still hiring and coming here for the career fair, BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR JOBS, they will not come to you.

Person that can't find ANY job in today's world is NOT LOOKING HARD ENOUGH.

If 16% or more of the population is umemployed and whole industries vanish, what can they adopt to? Your view of people solving their own problems at this point is vastly over simplified.

You seem to think there is some alternative for everyone to just pick up and do something else. That simply isn't true.

-Tim

[Tsar]

If 16% or more of the population is umemployed and whole industries vanish, what can they adopt to? Your view of people solving their own problems at this point is vastly over simplified.

You seem to think there is some alternative for everyone to just pick up and do something else. That simply isn't true.

-Tim

If working in wal mart is not your cup of tea, than it is your problem not mine. If you need a job, find one. Simple as that. It's totally different than not finding a job you want or like. But it is pretty easy to find a job that people typically do not like, such as wal mart. I will always stand by my statement. My family has done it, so can others.

[BigAls87Z28]

ARE YOU SERIOUS? what does past have to do with present? how about EVERYTHING? My mother will never own a Ford because it broke down every other week. Does ford make better product now? Maybe, will she ever buy it? HELL NO. Ford can be the most reliable car in the world, and she would not touch it with a stick. I suspect she is not the only one. When people have bad experiences they tend to remember them, and well not do the same mistake... I must say WOW again.

Congrats, you can say wow. English isnt so bad now is it?

No doubt that there are plenty of ignorant people that would never give another company a try. There are plenty of people that also read Consumer Reports and belive it as if it was brought down from the Mount!
I bet you there are plenty of Toyota Tacoma owners that will never own a Toyota again. Or Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES300 owners that will never own another due to oil sludge.
Or Honda Accord, Acura TSX and TL owners who had to keep replacing thier glass transmissions will never buy them again.

Id say that MOST of the people that "will never buy again" due to a failure in thier car turned out to be an OE, or Operator Error.

Can I blame the people who have a bad taste in thier mouth? No. But to totaly ignore, remove themselves from the thought of every owning ANY American automobile ever again because thier Geo Metro was a POS.

Im not saying that people should buy American to be American. But people need to due thier own research, test drive the cars, and be happy with thier purchase.

I had a customer come in and he told me that he wanted his brand new 08 Accord to ride like an 08 Malibu. I gave him a puzzled look, and asked him how did he know what an 08 Malibu feels like when driving?
He said "I drove one, it was great! Interior was great, I liked the style better, and rode and handled better."
Then I asked him why he got the car that rides rough, its because "well, I have had a Honda before, so I figured that this would be the same."
I smiled so big that I think I made him uncomfortable. I then told him that the Malibu's 18 inch tires would not fit his 17 inch Accord wheels, and that he would most likely never be able to replicate the Malibu's ride unless he traded it in for one.

Let's just say that big 3 are at the end of the gravy train... no one wants them to have this money now. If they were the first ones like AIG, they would probably get it no problem. But the fact is, they are not. They will waste the money just like everyone else. Go to a spa or some crap. I for one do not want to see more money go to waste.

People do want the Big 3 to have the money. Most people are upset that they will get it with no strings attached. But most people do want this.

Part of the problem is the fact that banks squander it, so why should we PRINT MORE MONEY AND WASTE IT ON GM?

My point is...why do we have to give the banks the other 350billion? I dont see the need. Banks seem to be doing ok now. Outside of Citi cutting 53k people today, rates are cut so low that there is no reason the banks should not be lending.
I say throw 200billion back into the kitty, and 150b to the Big 3 and Tier 1 suppliers to sure them up.
Then you move foward to prevent this from happening again. The Big 3 must move towards profitability, and the goverment must work with them for that goal.


BS, prices of food have been climbing steadly and nothing has been done. Hell apples used to be (last fall) <2.50 and now they are 4 bucks.

I would rather have money, and no inflation.

Prices of food have been climing for many reasons. First it was fuel costs, then it was costs of something else, now its inflation.



If working in wal mart is not your cup of tea, than it is your problem not mine. If you need a job, find one. Simple as that. It's totally different than not finding a job you want or like. But it is pretty easy to find a job that people typically do not like, such as wal mart. I will always stand by my statement. My family has done it, so can others.


Its not as simple as just finding another job. If 16% of Americans dont have a job to spend money, then even places like walmart will not be able to hire the people because no one is spending becaue no one has money.
Towns will colapse, the city of Detroit will become a ghost town, industry as a whole will falter faster then ever before.
America will lose its core manufacturing and industry OVERNIGHT!!!
You know what, the Big 3 are also some of the largest purchasers of medication for the UAW, but guess what will happen when they cant buy the drugs? Drug companies will then take a hit, healthcare for the US will dry up. Beyond the secondary supplier jobs, it would hit so hard.
And who is gunna build all our wepons? With most of all the major manufacturing gone, it will be outsourced.

Its a big more complicated then just getting a job at Walmart. When 3 million people are jobless overnight, in an economy where no one is hiring, its gunna hurt REAL bad. Its not like we have this vast and expansive job bank for Americans to fill.

[ins0mnia24]

Even though I have never owned any other brand of car except Gm..
Sadly I have to say let them all fall
Or let them other countries that have more Jobs depending on the big 3 bail them out
It is really sad seeing the numbers of U.S. workers compared to what they have in other countries..

[NJSPEEDER]

If working in wal mart is not your cup of tea, than it is your problem not mine. If you need a job, find one. Simple as that. It's totally different than not finding a job you want or like. But it is pretty easy to find a job that people typically do not like, such as wal mart. I will always stand by my statement. My family has done it, so can others.

Good, so your example is a few people looking for a job, how does that apply to a scale of millions? Are there a million openings at WalMart? How about the local grocery store? Does every employee have the knowledge or education to adapt to every job opening in the paper? Do all of these newly unemployed have the savings or opportunity to get re-educated to qualify for other positions? Would a few million people be able to find new jobs at comparable income levels to continue to contribute the same way to the economy?

The answer to all of these questions is no.

Just like so many other debates you enter, it is clear that despite all of the reading you have obviously done, you have no concept of scale.

-Tim

[Savage_Messiah]

Vitals... I don't think you're seeing that bigger picture, the one where there is not enough industry here to support 3 million people finding new jobs. Hiring somebody = less profit because you have to pay them. 3 million people out of a job will mean that 3 million people will be cutting down to the bare essentials, meaning a lot less money being spent, meaning less profits for the companies that would need more profit to hire them. It's not as simple s you're making it due to the scale.


So I say yes, bail them out. With guidelines, goals and restrictions as stated before.


And I couldn't agree more with giving tax breaks for buying domestically and hiking tariffs.

[DevilDougWS6]

what if the govt just gave the American citizens all the bailout money to keep circulating through the country to buy new cars from our american auto manufactuerers, and to get more money flowing again. and force companies to stop outsourcing to other countries. yeah its cheaper but its not helping OUR economy at all.

and i agree with most above that its not as simple as finding a new job. companies are not going to be hiring because people are not spending money like they use to on their products, therefore they dont want to pay more people and lose profit...

BUT, hiring more people COULD help the economy if companies had more overhead because those people they hired would be able to buy more things.

the economy is a big circle, you have the people, and you have the companies who provide the product (in a simple scale). people work for companies to make/sell a product(s) to bring profit for the company and pay the employees, in turn the employees spend money on other companies products keeping the companies alive and people making money.

but again wouldnt giving US the people most of the money help out purchasing products that are produced in THIS country to help the money to continue circulating? instead of giving it to the companies (who are going to get our money anyway) to do what the **** ever they want? it makes more sense but it may be more complicated than that.

i blame our poor economy on lazy Americans and outsourcing in a nutshell.

[pound]

You are clearly retarded.
No way, no how, could the foreign auto makers come close to filling any void left from the colapse of the Big 3.
No jobs will go overseas. No jobs will go to the other automakers.
The Big 3 will stop being. Thier major suppliers, who are already cash strapped, will go out of business.
And to throw a shocker at you...thoes same suppliers ALSO supply to the foreign automakers!! DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!!
That means that the foreign auto makers will not be able to get its supplies for thier cars.

The big three produce X number of cars per year. That means there is consumer demand to buy X number of cars. There is also a minimum amount of labor required to produce those cars. If one of more of the big three go away people will still want to buy X number of cars. Someone else foreign or domestic will step up to meet the demand for these vehicles and they will need to hire people to do it and will need to buy parts from suppliers. Just because a company is closing its doors doesn't mean there is no demand for products that they sell. Take a look at the airlines. Plenty of them have gone under, and their competitors filled the demand for flights and had to hire people to provide those flights. Also, I'm not retarded. :cry:

[Frosty]

Um, the airline industry layed off a lot of people when the **** hit the fan.

Shownomercy-T he bailout has NOTHING to do with the oil prices, it has everything to do with grim economic forecasts and reduced energy consumption. A weaker dollar still=higher oil prices compared to a non-inflated weak dollar. I don't understand your connection of an inflated dollar=lower oil prices. You have it backwards.

[pound]

well initially yes people did lose their jobs, but once everything shook out in the long term other airlines filled the gaps and needed workers to do it.

[1QWIKBIRD]

If working in wal mart is not your cup of tea, than it is your problem not mine. If you need a job, find one. Simple as that. It's totally different than not finding a job you want or like. But it is pretty easy to find a job that people typically do not like, such as wal mart. I will always stand by my statement. My family has done it, so can others.

Congrats to you and your family, but you "did it" during a robust U.S economy, which no doubt provided more opportunity than a crippled U.S ecocnomy. That is undeniable.

Wonder what would happen if you "did it" when the bottom has fallen out of the economy with soaring inflation and unemployment? I applaud your family's efforts and I agree that some people need to get off their @$$ and get to work, but don't oversimplify.

That said, the governement needs to throw the Big Three a bone here, not just cut them a blank check like the banks got, but do something. Two things drive the US economy, housing/construction and cars. Why? Because they are the only significant manufacturing sectors left in this country and one of them is in the toilet (housing) and the other is ready to flatline. The combined effect of this on the US labor force and economy isn't something I want to see. A bailout is no guarantee to success, but you have to try.

Chris

[redbanditZ28]

A few months back I was watching autoline detroit and I could have sworn they mentioned that GM sells a lot of cars in Korea. And I thought I heard that their Buick line was popular in some Asian country. I was never under the impression that GM had trouble selling outside of the country, unless things drastically changed over the last few months, which wouldn't be surprising. I always thought GM cars were actually more popular in foreign countries than they are here. At least that is what I have read in some media websites or watched on tv.

[BigAls87Z28]

A few months back I was watching autoline detroit and I could have sworn they mentioned that GM sells a lot of cars in Korea. And I thought I heard that their Buick line was popular in some Asian country. I was never under the impression that GM had trouble selling outside of the country, unless things drastically changed over the last few months, which wouldn't be surprising. I always thought GM cars were actually more popular in foreign countries than they are here. At least that is what I have read in some media websites or watched on tv.

GM now sells more cars outside of the US then in the US.

But there are major restrictions to that.
In Japan, GM or any other big auto maker outside of the Japanese have massive amounts of restrictions on building, or selling vehicles in that country.
In China, if you want to sell cars in thier country, you have to team up with one of thier companies in a joint venture and share profit.
Western Europe, there are a lot of financial restrictions on importing cars, which is why GM, years ago, purchased Adam Opel and later on, Saab. GM is also making some headway in Eastern Europe, where there are NO restrictions! They just opend up a 300million dollar plant in Russia, and the Chevy Lacetti just surpased the Ford Focus as the #1 selling car in Russia.

There is a lot of hope for GM if they can make it out of this alive. Its all about surviving the next year or two. Not only do they have the UAW thing kicking in, but also a massive title wave of product that they are ready to launch, several new advanced powertrain set ups, the Volt, and with all the pent up demand for a new car that should explode on the market, anyone still around to enjoy the wave will be happy.
America can make back that 25 billion quickly from all 3 automakers. I wouldnt hold my breatho n that 700 billion...

[Tsar]

Congrats, you can say wow. English isnt so bad now is it? No it's not, I can actually say it in 3 languages.



Id say that MOST of the people that "will never buy again" due to a failure in thier car turned out to be an OE, or Operator Error. Stats? You can't just tell me "most" and leave it at that. Anyone can pull out random numbers.

Can I blame the people who have a bad taste in thier mouth? No. But to totaly ignore, remove themselves from the thought of every owning ANY American automobile ever again because thier Geo Metro was a POS.

Im not saying that people should buy American to be American. But people need to due thier own research, test drive the cars, and be happy with thier purchase.
I'm all for it, but the problem is once someone had a bad experience they tend to stay away from the product. When I will be buying a car there is no doubt that I will do my research and not just plainly go on some stupid myth. But that is me, we as car enthusiasts are not "average" Americans who do not know how to replace a tire, we have more info to base our decision on unlike them. We can make a better choice, for most people cars are an A to B transport and nothing more. So if they bough GM ten years ago, and it broke down 9 times in 36 months and later they bought a honda that did not, well why would they switch back?

Once again I'm all for shopping around, and I'm not one of the people who would ignore a car for a past manufacturers mistake, but we are not talking about me here.


People do want the Big 3 to have the money. Most people are upset that they will get it with no strings attached. But most people do want this. Last time I saw a poll on this it was 65% against. But feel free to prove me wrong with some data.



My point is...why do we have to give the banks the other 350billion? I dont see the need. Banks seem to be doing ok now. Outside of Citi cutting 53k people today, rates are cut so low that there is no reason the banks should not be lending.
I say throw 200billion back into the kitty, and 150b to the Big 3 and Tier 1 suppliers to sure them up. I say stop PRINTING money and stop giving them away to ANYONE. No one has addressed the issue of inflation and how that would be horrible for our future. Sure it is not that hard to print a few trillion dollars, but I do not want to live in Zimbabwe.

Then you move foward to prevent this from happening again. The Big 3 must move towards profitability, and the goverment must work with them for that goal.
For some reason I doubt that Big 3 will turn over night. Maybe it's just me.



Prices of food have been climing for many reasons. First it was fuel costs, then it was costs of something else, now its inflation. They have been climbing because of inflation, with a few other causes. They just didn't say that on TV.






Its not as simple as just finding another job. If 16% of Americans dont have a job to spend money, then even places like walmart will not be able to hire the people because no one is spending becaue no one has money. Actually Wal Mart is posting record profits, Aldi is expanding at a rate of 100 stores per year. I could look up some other retail food stores that I'm sure are not doing terribly too bad (as long as they are not over priced) but I have to go to class soon.

When people do not have money, THEY WILL GO TO ALDI AND WAL MART because they are cheaper = more expansion for both of the above = more work. I do not think they would be expanding if they were suffering losses, especially aldi because they operate on cash only policy.

Towns will colapse, the city of Detroit will become a ghost town, industry as a whole will falter faster then ever before.
America will lose its core manufacturing and industry OVERNIGHT!!!
You know what, the Big 3 are also some of the largest purchasers of medication for the UAW, but guess what will happen when they cant buy the drugs? Drug companies will then take a hit, healthcare for the US will dry up. Beyond the secondary supplier jobs, it would hit so hard.
And who is gunna build all our wepons? With most of all the major manufacturing gone, it will be outsourced. Look up the sky is falling.

Its a big more complicated then just getting a job at Walmart. When 3 million people are jobless overnight, in an economy where no one is hiring, its gunna hurt REAL bad. Its not like we have this vast and expansive job bank for Americans to fill.Plenty of places are hiring, at least right now. You just have to search for it.

I just clicked on my schools website, and we have 44840 job openings RIGHT NOW, in all sorts of different fields! Strangely enough I do not want any of them, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any opportunities.

Good, so your example is a few people looking for a job, how does that apply to a scale of millions? Are there a million openings at WalMart? How about the local grocery store? Does every employee have the knowledge or education to adapt to every job opening in the paper? Do all of these newly unemployed have the savings or opportunity to get re-educated to qualify for other positions? Would a few million people be able to find new jobs at comparable income levels to continue to contribute the same way to the economy?

The answer to all of these questions is no.

Just like so many other debates you enter, it is clear that despite all of the reading you have obviously done, you have no concept of scale.

-TimIf you made yourself obsolete throughout your career and can not find a job, that is your problem. Stop being one dimensional. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, it doesn't seem like many people here are. And I clearly do know that giving away money that one does NOT have is BAD. What was that debt thingy again? Oh yea, 10,632,143,514,606.64 (that's in trillion for people who do not know numbers) at this very second. That means I (and YOU) owe about 35k, for what? I have never been late on any payment in my life, in fact my credit score is in higher 700's, which is top 2% of the country. Yet people want to be in bigger debt which will eventually lead to a default. Lets print more money!!! :shrug:

Hey I wanna buy a Ferrari F-430, lend me some money!

Congrats to you and your family, but you "did it" during a robust U.S economy, which no doubt provided more opportunity than a crippled U.S ecocnomy. That is undeniable.

Wonder what would happen if you "did it" when the bottom has fallen out of the economy with soaring inflation and unemployment? I applaud your family's efforts and I agree that some people need to get off their @$$ and get to work, but don't oversimplify.

I do not want any part of my mothers credit, I did not do anything, she did. With that said, she worked in Stop and Shop and Cleaned peoples apartments when she got here. Those jobs will be here no matter what. Rich will always be rich, and well Wally World is doing pretty good. Hell my dad used to ref little league games for extra 50 bucks on the weekend, or right before he got to work. As Adidas says, Impossible is nothing - and to me people are just lazy and want a hand out (for the most part)

[Tsar]

Eastern Europe, where there are NO restrictions! They just opend up a 300million dollar plant in Russia, and the Chevy Lacetti just surpased the Ford Focus as the #1 selling car in Russia.

So if we follow your previous logic, Russians should put some big ass tariffs on GM because they are foreign, and make them equal to all the Russian auto manufacturers ( that would be horrible :rofl: ). After all that is what they want to do to keep the National (Piece of Crap) Brand going. And they will eventually, the problem is Russian people are SO SICK OF SUBPAR (Russian craptastic cars) product that they would rather buy a 15 year old BMW than a new Russian car.

Here is a product that awesome Russian manufacturer has produced for as long as I can remember myself. I would choose ANY car over that, and that costs around 10k I believe...
http://englishrussia.com/images/new_2107/1.jpg

At least they are getting some decent cars from GM and Ford now.

[Frosty]

I think we should give you two your own forum. :D

[Tsar]

I think we should give you two your own forum. :D
I'm just bringing back some life into this section :)

[BigAls87Z28]

The big three produce X number of cars per year. That means there is consumer demand to buy X number of cars. There is also a minimum amount of labor required to produce those cars. If one of more of the big three go away people will still want to buy X number of cars. Someone else foreign or domestic will step up to meet the demand for these vehicles and they will need to hire people to do it and will need to buy parts from suppliers. Just because a company is closing its doors doesn't mean there is no demand for products that they sell. Take a look at the airlines. Plenty of them have gone under, and their competitors filled the demand for flights and had to hire people to provide those flights. Also, I'm not retarded. :cry:

Everyone keeps comparing the Airlines to the Big 3.
This would be like Boeing and General Dynamics going out of business, not Conti, American or United.
The airlines sell a service. Services can be recreated elsewhere.
If you stop production of the actual air planes themselves, then where is American gunna be able to purchase it? What about the suppliers to Boeing? What abotu the military implications? What about the steel mill workers who supply the metals for airplanes?

The Big 3 going under would put this country into an economic tail spin farther and faster then it is in now. That would mean that more people would have less money to buy things, be it that the other import automakers can kieep up or not.
People are also not going to just be honky dorry about this either. There will be a massive, probably mostly from the mid west, hatred for import auto companies. Dont be upset if you drive a Camry in kansas city, and you come out to a smoldering wreck.

[BigAls87Z28]

So if we follow your previous logic, Russians should put some big ass tariffs on GM because they are foreign, and make them equal to all the Russian auto manufacturers ( that would be horrible :rofl: ). After all that is what they want to do to keep the National (Piece of Crap) Brand going. And they will eventually, the problem is Russian people are SO SICK OF SUBPAR (Russian craptastic cars) product that they would rather buy a 15 year old BMW than a new Russian car.

Here is a product that awesome Russian manufacturer has produced for as long as I can remember myself. I would choose ANY car over that, and that costs around 10k I believe...
http://englishrussia.com/images/new_2107/1.jpg

At least they are getting some decent cars from GM and Ford now.


Sure, if Russia wanted to put up restrictions on imported and even domestic built cars made by foreign companies, that is up to them.
They dont, and everyone is taking advantage of it, including GM. Its good for GM, and right now good for Russia. But Russia's auto copanies isnt nearly as strong, nearly as great, nearly as helpful to Russia's economy. Russia has an auto industry that is based off other countries automakers. VW, GM, Ford, and Toyota all have tried to make headway there.

But in the end, it has NOTHING to do with what is going on with America's auto makers.

[LS1Hawk]

Just read this on Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aKzw5lV6pvt8&refer=japan

GM Collapse Would Have `Huge' Global Impact, Nakagawa Says
By Keiko Ujikane and Keiichi Yamamura


Nov. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Japanese Finance Minister Shoichi Nakagawa (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Shoichi%0ANakagawa&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) indicated that his government wouldn't protest any U.S. decision to prop up General Motors Corp. (http://www.njfboa.org/apps/quote?ticker=GM%3AUS) because a collapse of the automaker would hurt the rest of the world.


``The auto industry is a hugely important employer and there are so many related industries,'' Nakagawa said in an interview with Bloomberg Television in Tokyo today. ``The effects would not simply be the collapse of a single company. The effects would be huge -- not just for America, but for Europe and Japan as well.''



GM, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC are seeking government aid as industrywide sales have plummeted to a 17-year low. Failure of a U.S. carmaker would risk the collapse of parts makers that also supply Toyota Motor Corp. (http://www.njfboa.org/apps/quote?ticker=7203%3AJP), Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co., disrupting production at the Japanese automakers' North American factories.



``Japan would support a bailout'' of U.S. automakers, said Junko Nishioka (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Junko+Nishioka&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), an economist at RBS Securities Japan Ltd. in Tokyo. ``The government isn't concerned about the direct impact of the bankruptcies so much as how the failures might trigger a deeper financial crisis around the world.''



GM this month said it lost $4.2 billion in the third quarter and almost $73 billion since the end of 2004, and that it may not have enough cash to get through the year. Toyota is set to eclipse GM as the world's biggest automaker (http://www.njfboa.org/apps/quote?ticker=7203%3AJP) by the end of the year.


``I believe the U.S. government will adopt policies and take action to prevent a hard landing with responsibility,'' Nakagawa said. ``If the worst-case scenario does materialize, not just Japan but the whole world will feel the effects.''



A GM collapse would cost the U.S. government as much as $200 billion in aid to affected states, unemployment benefits and costs of reviving the economy, according to an estimate prepared last week by Nariman Behravesh (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Nariman+Behravesh&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), chief economist at IHS Global Insight in Lexington, Massachusetts.



Job losses would total 2.5 million from an automaker failure in 2009, including 1.4 million people in industries not directly tied to manufacturing, according to a Nov. 4 study by the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

[BigAls87Z28]

Stats? You can't just tell me "most" and leave it at that. Anyone can pull out random numbers.

Work in the auto service industry long enough, you realize that a lot of people, like you say below, dont know **** about cars. Look at the blame Ford and Firestone both got for the blowouts in the mid 90's. Soccer moms driving around on 15 psi in thier car, on teh cell phone, yelling at kids, and a squirel pops onto the road. But no, blame was put on Ford for making weak roofs, and Firestone had to recall millions of tires due to weak sidewalls.
But you know what happend? Its not a LAW that every automaker has to put TPM sensors in 07 and future vehicles so that people dont kill themselves.

I'm all for it, but the problem is once someone had a bad experience they tend to stay away from the product. When I will be buying a car there is no doubt that I will do my research and not just plainly go on some stupid myth. But that is me, we as car enthusiasts are not "average" Americans who do not know how to replace a tire, we have more info to base our decision on unlike them. We can make a better choice, for most people cars are an A to B transport and nothing more. So if they bough GM ten years ago, and it broke down 9 times in 36 months and later they bought a honda that did not, well why would they switch back?

I dont blame them for not trying GM again, but some people take that as All GM or all domestic cars are crap. Or even worse, they know of someone who purchased a GM and had problems and use that small example as a reason to never buy. It also goes both ways too.

Last time I saw a poll on this it was 65% against. But feel free to prove me wrong with some data.

You can look at the poll on this board.
I have not seen a poll saying either way, but support for bailing them out in Congress is what is important.


I say stop PRINTING money and stop giving them away to ANYONE. No one has addressed the issue of inflation and how that would be horrible for our future. Sure it is not that hard to print a few trillion dollars, but I do not want to live in Zimbabwe.

No one wants too. But inflation is something that our goverment can deal with, we can bring that back down, we have done it before.
All day on CNBC they talked about it.

For some reason I doubt that Big 3 will turn over night. Maybe it's just me.

Its not overnight. Its not gunna happen right away. But they are developing ways to slim down. GM is at a disadvantage because they have a lot of brands. But the money to cut down on divisions, the money to cut down plants, the money to inject into existing plants to make future product, is not there.
Some have said that GM is looking for the bail out to remove itself of a lot of problems such as paying off dealers, cutting divisions, cutting plants.

They have been climbing because of inflation, with a few other causes. They just didn't say that on TV.
Inflation has only just become a problem.


Actually Wal Mart is posting record profits, Aldi is expanding at a rate of 100 stores per year. I could look up some other retail food stores that I'm sure are not doing terribly too bad (as long as they are not over priced) but I have to go to class soon.

When people do not have money, THEY WILL GO TO ALDI AND WAL MART because they are cheaper = more expansion for both of the above = more work. I do not think they would be expanding if they were suffering losses, especially aldi because they operate on cash only policy.

Well, then thats the answer. 3 million people can just work at Wal Mart.
Outside of Walmart, every other retailer is having problems. Retailers are ready for a poor holiday season.

Look up the sky is falling.

It could.

Plenty of places are hiring, at least right now. You just have to search for it.

I just clicked on my schools website, and we have 44840 job openings RIGHT NOW, in all sorts of different fields! Strangely enough I do not want any of them, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any opportunities.

Ok, so you know what? Im satisfied that even though the Backbone American Industry and Economy will go bankrupt, either Chap 11 or Chap 7, that everyone will be just fine because there are a few thousand jobs out there to take up the slack.
Lets not worry about the massive forclosure numbers that will happen when people have thier income slashed in half. Lets not worry about the draw on unemployment.
It will be a seemless transition and things will be better.
Thread over.

If you made yourself obsolete throughout your career and can not find a job, that is your problem. Stop being one dimensional. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, it doesn't seem like many people here are. And I clearly do know that giving away money that one does NOT have is BAD. What was that debt thingy again? Oh yea, 10,632,143,514,606.64 (that's in trillion for people who do not know numbers) at this very second. That means I (and YOU) owe about 35k, for what? I have never been late on any payment in my life, in fact my credit score is in higher 700's, which is top 2% of the country. Yet people want to be in bigger debt which will eventually lead to a default. Lets print more money!!! :shrug:

Wait till 4% of GDP disappears off the books.

Hey I wanna buy a Ferrari F-430, lend me some money!

Cant, your credit score isnt high enough, and you dont have a job, so stick with your firebird.

I do not want any part of my mothers credit, I did not do anything, she did. With that said, she worked in Stop and Shop and Cleaned peoples apartments when she got here. Those jobs will be here no matter what. Rich will always be rich, and well Wally World is doing pretty good. Hell my dad used to ref little league games for extra 50 bucks on the weekend, or right before he got to work. As Adidas says, Impossible is nothing - and to me people are just lazy and want a hand out (for the most part)

Well, thats it. People are lazy, people are stupid, and people are dumb.
Good thing Walmart is hiring.

[BigAls87Z28]

Germany and Sweeden are moving to support thier auto makers, including Opel and Saab.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSBAT00251120081117

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200811180940DOWJONESDJONLINE000331_FORTUNE5.htm

Why should GM continue to put up with America's ****** I say move HQ to another country, namely Hong Kong, and move foward with people that want to support a business that supports thier country.

[alamantia]

You think Detroit is bad now? I think the govenrment is looking to not have a Beruit within the US border. Think about nation wide results. I wonder how many families would be impacted by every plant shutting down, new car sales haulting. My father works for saturn pontiac service, how long would servic continue, distrabution, parts, etc. I would only venture to say that the auto industry effects a very large portion of our nations economy. In my novice understanding the federal reserve is kept to reconise and dispurse aid in the form of a loan to any pending crisis to avoid further trickle effect of the economy. The auto industry failing would be the beginning of a long cycle of unemployment and that is bad. I hope that we are smart enough to dispurse needed funds in the right areas to rebound this economy, I hope that the Auto industry stays intact. Mergers are just a temporary means to an end. Once great rivals like the New Yourk central and Penn central railroads merged to avoid extinction, it only lasted a few years. And thats back when Railroads were americas greatest monopolys

[BonzoHansen]

Point…............................................ .........

OPINION
NOVEMBER 10, 2008 WSJ
Detroit Auto Makers Need More Than a Bailout
By PAUL INGRASSIA

As President-elect Barack Obama prepares to enter the White House, he must ponder what to do about the world's trouble spots: Iran, Iraq, North Korea, the Caucasus. And, oh yes, Detroit.

On Friday, General Motors and Ford announced more multibillion-dollar losses in the third quarter; closely held Chrysler doesn't publicly report results. When GM, which seems in the worst shape, was 45 minutes late releasing its results, rumors spread that a bankruptcy filing was imminent. It wasn't, but the company says it could run out of cash in the first half of next year. Make that the first quarter if the current cash bleed continues. GM is lobbying furiously for emergency federal assistance, with Ford and Chrysler close behind.

Let's assume that the powers in Washington -- the Bush team now, the Obama team soon -- deem GM too big to let fail. If so, it's also too big to be entrusted to the same people who have led it to its current, perilous state, and who are too tied to the past to create a different future.

In return for any direct government aid, the board and the management should go. Shareholders should lose their paltry remaining equity. And a government-appointed receiver -- someone hard-nosed and nonpolitical -- should have broad power to revamp GM with a viable business plan and return it to a private operation as soon as possible.

That will mean tearing up existing contracts with unions, dealers and suppliers, closing some operations and selling others, and downsizing the company. After all that, the company can float new shares, with taxpayers getting some of the benefits. The same basic rules should apply to Ford and Chrysler.

These are radical steps, and they wouldn't avoid significant job losses. But there isn't much alternative besides simply letting GM collapse, which isn't politically viable. At least a government-appointed receiver would help assure car buyers that GM will be around, in some form, to honor warranties on its vehicles. It would help minimize losses to the government's Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.

But giving GM a blank check -- which the company and the United Auto Workers union badly want, and which Washington will be tempted to grant -- would be an enormous mistake. The company would just burn through the money and come back for more. Even more jobs would be wiped out in the end.

The current economic crisis didn't cause the meltdown in Detroit. The car companies started losing billions of dollars several years ago when the economy was healthy and car sales stood at near-record levels. They complained that they were unfairly stuck with enormous "legacy costs," but those didn't just happen. For decades, the United Auto Workers union stoutly defended gold-plated medical benefits that virtually no one else had. UAW workers and retirees had no deductibles, copays or other facts of life in these United States.

A few years ago the UAW even waged a spirited fight to protect the "right" of workers to smoke on the assembly line, something that simply isn't allowed at, say, Honda's U.S. factories. Aside from the obvious health risk, what about cigarette ashes falling onto those fine leather seats being bolted into the cars? Why was this even an issue?

When GM's bond ratings plunged into junk territory a couple years ago the auto maker sold 51% of its financing arm, GMAC, to Cerberus, a private-equity powerhouse. Then last summer Cerberus bought 80% of Chrysler from Daimler for just 25% of what the German company paid for the company a decade earlier. It looked like a great deal at the time, like buying a "fixer upper" house at a steep discount. Until, that is, you have to shell out big bucks to shore up the foundation, repair the leaky roof, etc.

Cerberus tried hard in recent weeks to sell Chrysler to GM, with government financial assistance. Controlling GMAC's lending to GM dealers and customers gave Cerberus enormous leverage at the negotiating table. Cerberus squeezed hard, say industry analysts and insiders, but the GM board balked. Last Friday the companies said the talks were off -- "for the moment," as the company's chief operating officer put it.

For the moment? How about, like, forever? Buying Chrysler would just give GM an excuse to delay the fundamental task of putting its house in order. Management would turn its energy to producing pretty PowerPoint slides with all the requisite buzzwords: synergies, transformation, downsizing, rightsizing and exercising. What's needed, instead, is exorcising.

A thorough housecleaning at GM is the only way to give the company a fresh start. GM is structured for its glory days of the 1960s, when it had half the U.S. car market -- not for the first decade of this century, when it has just over 20% of the market. General Motors simply cannot support eight domestic brands (Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet, GMC, Saturn, Saab and Hummer) with adequate product-development and marketing dollars. Even the good vehicles the company develops (for example, the Cadillac CTS and Chevy Malibu) get lost in the wash.

Nevertheless, the current board of directors and management have stuck stubbornly to this structure. The lone exception was a dissident director, Jerome B. York, who resigned a couple years ago. He warned that without fundamental changes the "unthinkable" might happen to GM. Well, here we are.

Which brings us back to what the government should do. If public dollars are the only way to keep General Motors afloat, as the company contends, a complete restructuring under a government overseer or oversight board has to be the price.

That is essentially the role played by the federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board in doling out taxpayer dollars to the airlines in the wake of 9/11. The board consisted of senior government officials with a staff recruited largely from the private sector. It was no figurehead. When one airline brought in a lengthy, convoluted restructuring plan, a board official ordered it to come back with something simpler and sustainable. The Stabilization Board did its job -- selling government-guaranteed airline loans and warrants to private investors, monitoring airline bankruptcies to protect the interests of taxpayers -- and even returned money to the government.

As for Ford and Chrysler, if they want similar public assistance they should pay the same price. Wiping out existing shareholders would end the Ford family's control of Ford Motor. But keeping the family in the driver's seat wouldn't be an appropriate use of tax dollars. Nor is bailing out the principals of Cerberus, who include CEO Stephen Feinberg, Chairman John Snow, the former Treasury secretary, and global investing chief Dan Quayle, former vice president.

Government loan guarantees, with stringent strings attached and new management at the helm, helped save Chrysler in 1980. But it's now 2008, 35 years since the first oil shock put Japanese cars on the map in America. "Since the mid-Seventies," one Detroit manager recently told me, "I have sat through umpteen meetings describing how we had to beat the Japanese to survive. Thirty-five years later we are still trying to figure it out."

Which is why pouring taxpayer billions into the same old dysfunctional morass isn't the answer.

Mr. Ingrassia is a former Dow Jones executive and Detroit bureau chief for this newspaper.

…counter point…............................................ .........

WSJ 11/18/2008

In "Detroit Auto Makers Need More Than a Bailout," (op-ed, Nov. 10), Paul Ingrassia misses the key point: GM was well along in precisely the kind of transformation Mr. Ingrassia is calling for when it was hit with a credit crisis of historic proportions.

Mr. Ingrassia, a former Journal reporter, laces his argument with colorful tales from the past. It is worth looking at what is actually going on in the present. GM products now compete with the best. The Cadillac CTS, Chevy Malibu and Buick Enclave are just the first of the new generation of cars and crossovers emerging from GM's global product programs. Even in the current downturn, GM intends to keep important new products coming, including the Chevy Volt extended-range electric car.

Similarly, Mr. Ingrassia overlooks the major strides GM has made in resizing its U.S. capacity and increasing its efficiency. GM productivity is now comparable to that of the transplants, according to the Harbour Report, and GM has closed the quality gap as well. GM has accomplished this with half the hourly workers it had in 2000. If that isn't a major restructuring, what is?

Recent labor negotiations have transformed the labor-management relationship in ways that Mr. Ingrassia seems to ignore. The 2007 agreements, when fully implemented in 2010, will finish closing the cost gap with non-union transplants. GM has recently taken more than $9 billion out of its structural cost in North America, and has outlined a plan to enhance its liquidity position by $20 billion through 2009. This is hardly "the same old dysfunctional morass."

Had Mr. Ingrassia still been following GM as a working reporter, he would understand that GM's financial results over the past few years reflect significant charges for restructuring, and that the company was successfully managing this process until frozen credit markets and plunging auto sales brought on the current crisis.

In short, the restructuring Mr. Ingrassia is calling for is well underway. The GM board and leadership have been aggressively repositioning the company for sustainable success. Government loans to help GM weather the credit crisis and complete this transformation would be a good investment in this future.

Steven J. Harris
Vice President
Global Communications
General Motors Corp.
Detroit

[BigAls87Z28]

People are also forgetting that its not a "bail out" but a bridge loan to help retool and gear for a new company. They will have to pay it back asap. I think there is a 4% intrest for the first 5 years, and then it jumps to 7 or so after that, with an increase every year after that.
No bonus's for anyone making over 250k
No dividend for stocks which can hurt GM for investments.

[NJSPEEDER]

Germany and Sweeden are moving to support thier auto makers, including Opel and Saab.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSBAT00251120081117

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200811180940DOWJONESDJONLINE000331_FORTUNE5.htm

Why should GM continue to put up with America's ****** I say move HQ to another country, namely Hong Kong, and move foward with people that want to support a business that supports thier country.


On BBC last night they mentioned other nations following suit, including Australia propping up Holden, Ford, and some tractor company. Just like the finance bail out, the US takes the lead and offers the solution everyone hates but knows we need and the rest of the world follows.

-Tim

[BigAls87Z28]

Problem is, the US is not giving the loan to the automakers, but everyone else is.

This is embarasing for America. We pour money into banks that have had clearly poor management, and have done more damage to America's economy then the US Automakers ever have.

[Tsar]

Work in the auto service industry long enough, you realize that a lot of people, like you say below, dont know **** about cars. Look at the blame Ford and Firestone both got for the blowouts in the mid 90's. Soccer moms driving around on 15 psi in thier car, on teh cell phone, yelling at kids, and a squirel pops onto the road. But no, blame was put on Ford for making weak roofs, and Firestone had to recall millions of tires due to weak sidewalls.
But you know what happend? Its not a LAW that every automaker has to put TPM sensors in 07 and future vehicles so that people dont kill themselves.
I never disputed the fact that people are stupid. :shrug:


I dont blame them for not trying GM again, but some people take that as All GM or all domestic cars are crap. Or even worse, they know of someone who purchased a GM and had problems and use that small example as a reason to never buy. It also goes both ways too. People who simply rely on a word of another are ... well look above at my previous answer.



You can look at the poll on this board.
I have not seen a poll saying either way, but support for bailing them out in Congress is what is important. You're not good with poles and such, are you? The poll of this website is irrelevant because it's bias. For any pole to be relevant it must sample random number of people, not people who have a car hobby and are interested in seeing GM succeed. Also unlike timmay believes we do not need to ask everyone to get the "big picture" we can have a sample of random people. But we have been over this before.




No one wants too. But inflation is something that our goverment can deal with, we can bring that back down, we have done it before.
All day on CNBC they talked about it. I do not see them dealing with it right now. And what happens when the debt becomes too great? What happens when US defaults? What are you gonna say then?



Its not overnight. Its not gunna happen right away. But they are developing ways to slim down. GM is at a disadvantage because they have a lot of brands. But the money to cut down on divisions, the money to cut down plants, the money to inject into existing plants to make future product, is not there. They should have thought about that BEFORE they were about to go out of business... One of the clauses in articles of Incorporation in any corporation states that the business will be run for PROFIT. Usually corporations that do not turn profit are dissolved because, well they are not profitable. Look it up, its a bawl to read.



Inflation has only just become a problem. Well Mr. economist maybe you will educate me but hasn't the US ran a deficit for the past 8 or so years? Where do you think the money comes from, besides China that is, THE PRINTING PRESS! Maybe you can remind me again what happens when you print trillions of dollars that you do not have. Um...how about what happens when you are unable to pay your debt? ok go go go.




Well, then thats the answer. 3 million people can just work at Wal Mart.
Outside of Walmart, every other retailer is having problems. Retailers are ready for a poor holiday season. You're either a really stupid or you just cannot be separated from GM's nutsack, which one is it?
Every single person out of that 3 million will be out of a job? No, they will find something different, some will work for Toyota or something. Some will work for UPS, granted they will have to adjust from putting a screw in a hole to packaging boxes but I believe they can make it. And omg some will have to work at wal mart and other food retailers to make ends meet. Some will be unemployed, but that's the way life works. Bad companies go out of business and some good people lose their jobs - no doubt eventually they will find a new one.

Ok, so you know what? Im satisfied that even though the Backbone American Industry and Economy will go bankrupt, either Chap 11 or Chap 7, that everyone will be just fine because there are a few thousand jobs out there to take up the slack. Few thousand jobs that I found in less than a minute. As stated previously, if you are one dimensional and you can not do anything besides assemly work for 74 bucks an hour than you have screwed yourself. I will not feel sorry for you, because you have failed to diversify yourself.

Lets not worry about the massive forclosure numbers that will happen when people have thier income slashed in half. Lets not worry about the draw on unemployment.
It will be a seemless transition and things will be better.
Thread over.
Yea let's rather make out money worthless! Good solution! BTW responsible people save money, so when they need extra cash they can go to the bank and get some. If all of the 3 million people were not responsible enough to foresee possible unemployment or layoff than well, it's their fault. Personal responsibility is a wonderful thing!


Cant, your credit score isnt high enough, and you dont have a job, so stick with your firebird. That's not the way to do business in America today. The new way is: I buy a Ferrari, and when I can't pay for it, I will ask you for a hand out and you will be happy to give it to me! Get it right, geez.



Well, thats it. People are lazy, people are stupid, and people are dumb.
Good thing Walmart is hiring. :nod:


If US was running a surplus budget I would have no problem with any bailout, after all we have extra money. But printing money just for the hell of it, when we are already in a deficit, and making everyone future more ****** because of the actions of the few is just plain irresponsible. Not to mention a possible default if the printing press continues to run, have you ever lived through that? I do not think so, but I have. Cheers.

[Tsar]

I think we should just agree to disagree, none of us will ever convince the other side of their view. I think giving out money to an inferior business is a waste of time and money, and eventually will lead to a default on debt payments. You (no one in particular) think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Kthxbye.

[Frosty]

People are also forgetting that its not a "bail out" but a bridge loan to help retool and gear for a new company. They will have to pay it back asap. I think there is a 4% intrest for the first 5 years, and then it jumps to 7 or so after that, with an increase every year after that.
No bonus's for anyone making over 250k
No dividend for stocks which can hurt GM for investments.

That's all well and good but what if GM still defaults? Then what?

[alamantia]

The government liquidates all of their assets, Im sure their assets = more than the loan.

[Frosty]

What about all of the other creditors that GM owes? All of the $$ our government "might" make off of liquidating would probably end up in unemployment compensation anyway,lol. Uncle Sam investing in GM is a risk, just like it would be a risk for me or you to buy stock in a company on the market. People can call it a bail out, a loan or anything else. If you think about it this is really an investment...and we all know investments don't always pan out.

[BigAls87Z28]

Between the three of them, the Goverment can get all thier money back. So will the creditors. Everyone else will be left holding thier ass.
The goverment is taking the same risk by giving a trillion dollars to banks who have squanderd billions. At least with the Big 3, there is something to sell. Buildings, real estate, brands, tooling, technology, etc.
If banks default, the Goverment is left handing out money to thoes who had it invested, or throwing more money on top of the trillion they already have.
IMO, that 25 billion is a bit more secure then the banks 1 trillion.

[DevilDougWS6]

i think Al's point was that if/when 3 million people lose their jobs is definitally NOT a good thing, and is a big deal. So what if a few thousand can pick up a new job, its still a situation that should be completely avoided.

[Tsar]

i think Al's point was that if/when 3 million people lose their jobs is definitally NOT a good thing, and is a big deal. So what if a few thousand can pick up a new job, its still a situation that should be completely avoided.
Wow you should be a detective! :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

Big 3 are about to go in front of the Sen Banking Committe.
So far everyone has come up with a different idea on how to fix this.
Problem is, last time a bunch of economic geniouses came together to save an automaker, it was Cerbreus. They were economic smartie-pants and thougth that they could take thier economic business plan and be able to make Chrysler powerful again
Wrong.

[j0n]

Big 3 will go under... It is inevitable. Anyone who knows me knows how much I love GM... but this loan crap is simply going to get burned through and GM will be back to square one, with taxpayers 25bil MORE in the hole.

[BigAls87Z28]

UAW Gettelfinger is up right now talking about how much they have improved over the past few years.

[BigAls87Z28]

Mullaly is up now.

Wagoner is up now.

[BigAls87Z28]

Rick is laying it out big time. So far he has the best speach so far.

[Savage_Messiah]

Rick is laying it out big time. So far he has the best speach so far.

He would, he's got you under the table lewinski-ing him after all :lol:

[Frosty]

He would, he's got you under the table lewinski-ing him after all :lol:

LMFAO

[Tsar]

He would, he's got you under the table lewinski-ing him after all :lol:Funny in bold :lol:

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

Big 3 will go under... It is inevitable. Anyone who knows me knows how much I love GM... but this loan crap is simply going to get burned through and GM will be back to square one, with taxpayers 25bil MORE in the hole.

HE LIVES AND POSTS!!!!one1one! :shock:

[j0n]

Where do I sign up to send a letter telling them NOT to piss away 25bil?

[BigAls87Z28]

Bite me stacks.

[BigAls87Z28]

Chubby Bobby is getting a bit upset. As a dem, he isnt towing the line.
Shut up fatty, give them the 25 billion, and shaddap.

[SteveR]

Bi~Gals, as funny as that is, j0n does have a point in there. GM is burning through 2 billion every 30 days. All a 25 billion bailout is going to do is extent their demise by 12.5 months. The only way GM is going to survive is to re-org the entire company. The question becomes, can GM trim 2 billion from its monthly expenditures? The real problem GM is facing is that with an emerging global economy, the US is getting hit by the efficiency of the European Union and the way European companies operate, whereas GM is stuck in the old US mantra of excesses and overages. If they can't adapt to a more efficient way to operate, they won't survive, 25 billion bailout or not.

[sweetbmxrider]

Where do I sign up to send a letter telling them NOT to piss away 25bil?

i agree. i hope they don't pull a "spa treatment" like those other ********. some of these people have no sense of the world and think we owe them everything. take some responsibility and turn your company around yourself!

:rofl: always priceless steve

[BigAls87Z28]

Bi~Gals, as funny as that is, j0n does have a point in there. GM is burning through 2 billion every 30 days. All a 25 billion bailout is going to do is extent their demise by 12.5 months. The only way GM is going to survive is to re-org the entire company. The question becomes, can GM trim 2 billion from its monthly expenditures? The real problem GM is facing is that with an emerging global economy, the US is getting hit by the efficiency of the European Union and the way European companies operate, whereas GM is stuck in the old US mantra of excesses and overages. If they can't adapt to a more efficient way to operate, they won't survive, 25 billion bailout or not.

Thing is, GM and the others have done some major revamping of thier business structure. They are looking at saving 20 billion a year come Jan 1st, 2010.
Where was this outpouring of emotion when AIG not only came up to the window once, BUT TWICE!! 50 billion at a clip, without questions!!
We are talking about supporting 3 million people with 1/2 what AIG has already burned through, and came back for more.

One thing I do know, is that I Bobby Menendez will not get my vote next time he is around.

[Tsar]

Did I hear this correctly, the figure of 3 million jobs include car wash jobs lost in Detroit? Are you serious?!?! :rofl:

[BigAls87Z28]

Oh you are gunna listen to the WSJ guy?
3 million is an average figure that has ranged from several sources.

[SteveR]

Thing is, GM and the others have done some major revamping of thier business structure. They are looking at saving 20 billion a year come Jan 1st, 2010.
Where was this outpouring of emotion when AIG not only came up to the window once, BUT TWICE!! 50 billion at a clip, without questions!!
We are talking about supporting 3 million people with 1/2 what AIG has already burned through, and came back for more.

One thing I do know, is that I Bobby Menendez will not get my vote next time he is around.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but no matter what happens, if GM doesn't change the way they operate, they'll go under with our without the bailout. They seem to me to be the poster company of how not to do business in terms of wasteful spending and mismanagement.

[Tsar]

Oh you are gunna listen to the WSJ guy?
3 million is an average figure that has ranged from several sources.

I was just listening before I have to go to class again. If it's false why don't you point me to the right figures/numbers. Otherwise I'm more likely to believe him than you.

Car wash jobs :rofl:

[SteveR]

I didn't read through all 5 pages so I'm not sure if anybody talked about this yet, but, the alternative that GM was quietly asking for to Paulson, was an arranged bankruptcy. They were talking about it last Monday night after the meeting GM had with Democratic leaders and financial leaders in DC. Basically it would be a pre-arranged deal where the gov allows GM to declare chap 11, and restructure the company. The negative side of it is that it would dramatically impact a lot of people. What would happen is that if it were allowed, GM could cancel and reclaim all pension money, cancel benefits, cancel contracts with the UAW, suspend warranties, and come back with a different name and they could rebuild the company as they see fit, and the implications they were talking about was a non-union workforce, to decrease costs. I'm surprised it hasn't been on the news more, but seeing how negative and purely monetary it is, it'll cast a dark light on GM if it goes through. Not sure what the politics of it are or anything, but thats what they were reporting on the news last week.

[damon_Z]

I didn't read through all 5 pages so I'm not sure if anybody talked about this yet, but, the alternative that GM was quietly asking for to Paulson, was an arranged bankruptcy. They were talking about it last Monday night after the meeting GM had with Democratic leaders and financial leaders in DC. Basically it would be a pre-arranged deal where the gov allows GM to declare chap 11, and restructure the company. The negative side of it is that it would dramatically impact a lot of people. What would happen is that if it were allowed, GM could cancel and reclaim all pension money, cancel benefits, cancel contracts with the UAW, suspend warranties, and come back with a different name and they could rebuild the company as they see fit, and the implications they were talking about was a non-union workforce, to decrease costs. I'm surprised it hasn't been on the news more, but seeing how negative and purely monetary it is, it'll cast a dark light on GM if it goes through. Not sure what the politics of it are or anything, but thats what they were reporting on the news last week.

An arranged bankruptcy sounds perfect, Steve.

[Tsar]

I didn't read through all 5 pages so I'm not sure if anybody talked about this yet, but, the alternative that GM was quietly asking for to Paulson, was an arranged bankruptcy. They were talking about it last Monday night after the meeting GM had with Democratic leaders and financial leaders in DC. Basically it would be a pre-arranged deal where the gov allows GM to declare chap 11, and restructure the company. The negative side of it is that it would dramatically impact a lot of people. What would happen is that if it were allowed, GM could cancel and reclaim all pension money, cancel benefits, cancel contracts with the UAW, suspend warranties, and come back with a different name and they could rebuild the company as they see fit, and the implications they were talking about was a non-union workforce, to decrease costs. I'm surprised it hasn't been on the news more, but seeing how negative and purely monetary it is, it'll cast a dark light on GM if it goes through. Not sure what the politics of it are or anything, but thats what they were reporting on the news last week.
That was not talked about, 5 pages involved me saying that printing money would be bad, because US doesn't have any and it would be irresponsible to print more. And BiGals was just sack riding GM, but that is expected of him.

I like the arranged bankruptcy thing, besides canned warranties that is.

[johnjzjz]

NOW for my take on this -- and it will be blown off cause ime not in the in crowd --- the unions are the main reason for this -- 76 bucks and hour for both the 1.5 million retirees and the people still on the job and we all know the unions are in the DEMS pocket -- Reason they the left wants the bail out millions of re elect money at risk Obuddy -- thats 76 bucks an hour onto the cost of every car, and a reason the american cars are not competive in the world, the dopes who buy imports claming the american cars are junt WELL get this they cant afford to build them -- the unions have broken the backs so to speek of all 3 car companys -- soooo with GM owning 35 percent of toyojunk preamooo stock and with this looming and toyojunk turning their own stock in a downward spiral ( ya did notice the asian market all of a suddin came down nah they wouldent do that ) they will buy GM at 70 percent of its current stock total 35% is already their own and 40 cents on a dollar maybe less will be the walk out the door price, of course if your blind will believe the drive buy media and the left that its a good deal -- toyojunk is going to hostel take over GM after the bail because they will get that money not GM my take for what its worth the deal has already been struck -- jz

[BonzoHansen]

I didn't read through all 5 pages so I'm not sure if anybody talked about this yet, but, the alternative that GM was quietly asking for to Paulson, was an arranged bankruptcy. They were talking about it last Monday night after the meeting GM had with Democratic leaders and financial leaders in DC. Basically it would be a pre-arranged deal where the gov allows GM to declare chap 11, and restructure the company. The negative side of it is that it would dramatically impact a lot of people. What would happen is that if it were allowed, GM could cancel and reclaim all pension money, cancel benefits, cancel contracts with the UAW, suspend warranties, and come back with a different name and they could rebuild the company as they see fit, and the implications they were talking about was a non-union workforce, to decrease costs. I'm surprised it hasn't been on the news more, but seeing how negative and purely monetary it is, it'll cast a dark light on GM if it goes through. Not sure what the politics of it are or anything, but thats what they were reporting on the news last week.

I did, go read it!

[twin99]

I have really mixed feelings about the bail out of the big three

I was really for it and I know it means saving jobs and I am all for that but will giving GM a ton of money really help them?

The problem is that people are still not buying there cars and that's why they are losing money like crazy every month. They need to make sales to generate profit to keep the doors open.

IMO, Bailing them out will only buy some time and delay the inevitable.

The sad part too is that GM is finally starting to put out some really hot cars but I think it's going to be too late.

[BigAls87Z28]

I have really mixed feelings about the bail out of the big three

I was really for it and I know it means saving jobs and I am all for that but will giving GM a ton of money really help them?

The problem is that people are still not buying there cars and that's why they are losing money like crazy every month. They need to make sales to generate profit to keep the doors open.

IMO, Bailing them out will only buy some time and delay the inevitable.

The sad part too is that GM is finally starting to put out some really hot cars but I think it's going to be too late.

Wrong. GM still maintains 23% market share in America, more then anyone else.

GM's problems isnt sales, its profits. Giving GM the money would keep GM afloat till it could take advantage of the 20 billion dollar savings come Jan 1st, 2010.
There should be a total of 50 billion dollars, 25 for energy and 25 for restructuring costs, given to the Big 3.

This is gunna turn slightly political, but the Reps dont want to hand out money to the Union backed Big 3 because the the Unions dont back Reps overall, so this is there way of getting back at them. Not to mention their pockets laced with Import cash from Nissian, Toyota and Honda, as well as BMW, MB and VW. Of course they dont want it unless they are gunna get a kick back too.

But I digress....

If GM wanted a bail out, they would ask for 100B. This is a small loan to help restructure thier business due to the massive hurt the economy has put on them. Toyota, Honda and Nissan have felt it even worse, they just have more money to weather the storm. They have all seen thier NA profits drop 40% or more because of the drop of the dollar and rise of the yen.

[SteveR]

The only problem with an arranged bankruptcy is that everyone will lose their pensions, health benefits, stocks, warranties, and jobs. It'll like Enron to the billionth power. Oh, and the courts can opt to erase certain debts GM has, so parts manufacturers, suppliers, etc. will get screwed out of billions of dollars too.

[SteveR]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Our exports are so heavily taxed when entering other countries, why not try and fire that back.

Exactly, seeing that the US is the #1 purchaser of most imported foreign cars.

[SteveR]

The auto industry doesn't really need "tax breaks" so to speak, the government just needs to get rid of many of the stupid taxes that are special, just for the auto industry.

1. If you buy a car anywhere in the world you have to pay your home states sales tax to register it, why? This is not done with any other item of any kind, why would you prevent anyone from saving their hard earned on something so expensive?

2. Luxury tax on your way to get to work? Funny, I can buy a $30million home and pay the same tax rate as someone buying a $100k home, but if I want a car that cost $40k or more or a truck that costs $50k or more, I get stabbed in the eye with an extra 2%. WTF?

3. Gas Guzzler Tax. If a "passenger vehicle"(something that the government can't define clearly but is wiling to tax) gets under MPG tier X, you get to pay extra percentage on it Y. Sound like fun? Cause the taxes start at 25 MPG depending what kind of vehicle it is. BTW, a quad cab Colorado is a "passenger vehicle" but a standard cab is a "compact truck", according to the government, one taxed, one not. lol

If they made cars just like everything else, just paying sales tax where ever you buy it and call it a day, the savings to consumers would be hundreds of millions a year. Wanna encourage the economy, make it so people can afford to shop for big ticket items that employ dozens of people at a time to manufacture.

/rant

-Tim

The sales tax is based on the state, not the federal level, so states enforce the tax issue on cars because of the dollar value attached. Requiring tax only in the state you purchase it in would turn consumers to travel to other states with lower taxes to purchase cars, thus taking it out of the pocket of the state you live in, or the ones with the higher sales tax rates.

[BonzoHansen]

The only problem with an arranged bankruptcy is that everyone will lose their pensions, health benefits, stocks, warranties, and jobs. It'll like Enron to the billionth power. Oh, and the courts can opt to erase certain debts GM has, so parts manufacturers, suppliers, etc. will get screwed out of billions of dollars too.

It depends on how they structure it. If the feds are willing to chip in cash to the PBGC then the current retirees lose nothing. Fund the VEBAs and the medical problem is now the UAWs problem. There are ways to deal with the current workforce so they lose little in the grand scheme. But I think they can accomplish all this w/o technically filing c11. But it won't happen because it will partially neuter the union. The dems won't allow that.

Equity holders lose everything, most likely.

If they belly up on their own that is what we are gonna have to pay all that anyway, except the veba$$ will need to shuffle off to medicare.

It could be done.

[SteveR]

Take the morgage bail out of 700 billion. We are giving money to banks, and to other companies buying up smaller banks so they can get a hand out!! AIG is chewing through billions and billions, and nothing is done!!


Yep, and American Express ten days ago filed themselves as a bank now, even though they clearly are not, just so they could get 3.5 billion from the bailout fund. And to top it all off, the markets crashed again last week after Paulson went on tv and said that out of the 700 billion for the bailout, not a single penny is going to what it was intended for. It's just going to get handed out like candy to whoever. Meanwhile, AIG held a get together at some posh resort at a cost of $350,000. Not bad. All our hard earned money lost with BS mortgages and banks structuring them to fail so that they can keep whatever you paid in to date, sell of your house, and write the entire loan plus interest off as bad debt so the government pays them for it. In the end, a $300,000 house will net a profit to the mortgage company of over $1 million. Never mind the over 2 million families that are now homeless over the last year alone for bank foreclosures, or the billions and billions of tax payer dollars used to cover these claimed loaner debts, but then 700 billion is just handed out like acid at Woodstock to whomever the **** has a hand out, meanwhile, the entire economy, job market, auto industry, real estate market, stock market, and every other facet of American life, is sinking like the Titanic. More than 250,000 jobs were lost last month alone, and the projections for the next six months are for more than 300,000 each month. That's 1,800,000 jobs forcasted to be lost by next May, on top of the 1,400,000 that have already been lost in all of this. Meanwhile, these rich fatcat CEOs and CFOs for these failed imploded thieving companies are walking away with money that is just inconceivable. I was ready to head over to the hunting store after watching the former CEO of Lehman sit in front of a Congressional hearing a month ago and was asked just how much money he walked away with when the company went under. To the best of his knowledge, he thinks it's somewhere around $680,000,000, if I remember the number correctly. Not a bad retirement fund. The big picture problem is that the government, the financial institutions, the investors, the speculators, the business leaders, the company directors, the advisers, and everybody else with a key role in all this are all doing one thing, trying to cash out and take home the biggest prize, regardless of the fact that more money has been taken out of the US markets in the last three months than was lost during the entire depression, more than 40% of our financial infrastructure has been lost, and the big piece of news that I'm not so shocked hasn't been repeated, is that during the meeting with the big 3 in Washington last Monday, political leaders asked Paulson what kind of dollar figure he could put together to offer the auto industry, and his initial response was "nothing". The reason being he said, was that just recently, the White House authorized a loan of somewhere in the ballpark of 1.8 trillion dollars. To who? They asked, and Paulson's response was "as part of the details of the loan, I'm not allowed to disclose any details of where the money went". So, basically, the US Treasury was emptied. Not a bad parting FU gift from this administration. I'm sure you won't hear much about that any time soon.

[BonzoHansen]

Steve's on a roll, no enter key required!

[SteveR]

Steve's on a roll, no enter key required!

:lol:


It's just mind numbing to see just how effed up things have gotten in such a short period of time.

[Savage_Messiah]

during the meeting with the big 3 in Washington last Monday, political leaders asked Paulson what kind of dollar figure he could put together to offer the auto industry, and his initial response was "nothing". The reason being he said, was that just recently, the White House authorized a loan of somewhere in the ballpark of 1.8 trillion dollars. To who? They asked, and Paulson's response was "as part of the details of the loan, I'm not allowed to disclose any details of where the money went". So, basically, the US Treasury was emptied. Not a bad parting FU gift from this administration. I'm sure you won't hear much about that any time soon.



http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/double_overdrive496/Other%20Stuff/beek38pn.gif

[SteveR]

Actually, looking it up right now, the number isn't exact, but it's more like 2-3 trillion to date, and speculators are saying the number could be as high as 4-6 trillion. In addition, Bloomberg, Inc. has filed a lawsuit against the FED for non-disclosure.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/107340/$2_trillion_handed_out_by_paulson_and_bernanke,_bu t_who_got_it,_nobody_knows/

http://investment-blog.net/how-many-banks-will-file-bankruptcy-without-recent-2-trillion-emergency-loan-from-fed/

[SteveR]

and speaking of wasted/lost/stolen money, here's a story I'm sure you'll all enjoy. I'm not sure how many of you heard about this, but recently it's being reported that somewhere in the ballpark of $13 billion was taken out as cash, strapped to pallets, and flown over to Iraq, only to magically vanish.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202053.html?nav=rss_nation

http://www.prisoners.com/12bil$.html

http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/corruption_9_billion_cash_airlifted_from_fed_to_ir aq_go_missing.htm

[Savage_Messiah]

and speaking of wasted/lost/stolen money, here's a story I'm sure you'll all enjoy. I'm not sure how many of you heard about this, but recently it's being reported that somewhere in the ballpark of $13 billion was taken out as cash, strapped to pallets, and flown over to Iraq, only to magically vanish.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202053.html?nav=rss_nation

http://www.prisoners.com/12bil$.html

http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/corruption_9_billion_cash_airlifted_from_fed_to_ir aq_go_missing.htm

And I'm the bad guy for saying we need to pull out and let them fix their own damn country.

[BigAls87Z28]

Jesus
Harold
Christ

13 Billion missing, 2 trillion given to banks with no transparency and no accountability, and these ******* senators are gunna parade the Big 3's CEO's in front of American and bitch them out for "not making cars that people want" and NOT issue them 25 billion dollars FOR ALL THREE OF THEM!!

I am in shock...total and utter shock. We have sold our country down the drain.

[LS1Hawk]

but we "Americans" are the reason why we are in this situation.

That is the greatest single line of truth that I have read about this topic on any forum. Very well stated.

-Tim

So very true. We have no one to blame but ourselves. People love to point the finger at the politicians, the CEOs - and yes they are corrupt. But people forget that they are a product of our society. It's like to old saying goes: garbage in, garbage out. Nothing is going to change unless society as a whole changes. Think about it, this economy is already in the crapper and spiraling further and further out of control each day. Yet, the new iPhone comes out and there are lines all the way out the store to purchase this $300 dollar plastic screen because "Oh, my old one which I just got less than a year ago isn't as cool as this one." Don't you think there's something terribly wrong here? People need to get back to basics in this country and slow the **** down, because we're loosing sight of the important things around us. The 50s were historically the most prosperous time for the US. Things were much more simpler and people held things important like family and community. Today that is all gone and everything is about numero uno, and you see it in the things we buy and everything we do: iphone, ipod, myspace...it's ridiculous. It's sad to say it, but maybe this country needs a depression to wipe the slate clean and give people kick of reality. /rant

[Fast92RS]

Ok if the big three go under. I think it will cause a snowball efect that will eventually effect every consumer product. Won't it affect things like the commercial trucking industry, dont they get the parts from the same suppliers as the big three? So manufactures of heavy trucks, ambulances, fire trucks, some military vehicles will all be affected. So 3 million jobs will just be the start of it and I dont think it will be as easy as someone just going out and finding another job.

[Tsar]

Jesus
Harold
Christ

13 Billion missing, 2 trillion given to banks with no transparency and no accountability, and these ******* senators are gunna parade the Big 3's CEO's in front of American and bitch them out for "not making cars that people want" and NOT issue them 25 billion dollars FOR ALL THREE OF THEM!!

I am in shock...total and utter shock. We have sold our country down the drain.

That's only a better reason NOT to give anyone anymore money. If you had 50k in CC debt, making minimum payments, you wouldn't go out and buy a flat screen for another 2500, would you? From your argument it seems like you would, because you would justify it by saying "well I'm already in debt, what's another 2500 gonna do?".

[ChickenLittle]

no.

[BigAls87Z28]

That's only a better reason NOT to give anyone anymore money. If you had 50k in CC debt, making minimum payments, you wouldn't go out and buy a flat screen for another 2500, would you? From your argument it seems like you would, because you would justify it by saying "well I'm already in debt, what's another 2500 gonna do?".

Actually, it would be more like a business that its chief product, (In GM's case, its only product) has either stop selling or selling at such low levels due to outside circumstances. And that no matter what steps you have taken to slim down and reduce your overhead, the people are not buying your product and cannot produce the revenue levels to keep the company moving foward. they will need a loan to move foward to get through this troubled economic times.
We arent bailing out the Big 3, we arent propping up bad business and thats the problem people need to understand. As GM's CEO Rick Wagoneer said yeterday, that late last year GM made massive moves to turn the company around. The press, wall street, everyone saw light at the end of the tunnel. Then this economic meltdown happend, and GM was stuck right in the middle of revamping its costs, revamping its business, putting together a very expensive advanced powertrain program together, when the floor fell out on thier business.

[twin99]

Yep, and American Express ten days ago filed themselves as a bank now, even though they clearly are not, just so they could get 3.5 billion from the bailout fund. And to top it all off, the markets crashed again last week after Paulson went on tv and said that out of the 700 billion for the bailout, not a single penny is going to what it was intended for. It's just going to get handed out like candy to whoever. Meanwhile, AIG held a get together at some posh resort at a cost of $350,000. Not bad. All our hard earned money lost with BS mortgages and banks structuring them to fail so that they can keep whatever you paid in to date, sell of your house, and write the entire loan plus interest off as bad debt so the government pays them for it. In the end, a $300,000 house will net a profit to the mortgage company of over $1 million. Never mind the over 2 million families that are now homeless over the last year alone for bank foreclosures, or the billions and billions of tax payer dollars used to cover these claimed loaner debts, but then 700 billion is just handed out like acid at Woodstock to whomever the **** has a hand out, meanwhile, the entire economy, job market, auto industry, real estate market, stock market, and every other facet of American life, is sinking like the Titanic. More than 250,000 jobs were lost last month alone, and the projections for the next six months are for more than 300,000 each month. That's 1,800,000 jobs forcasted to be lost by next May, on top of the 1,400,000 that have already been lost in all of this. Meanwhile, these rich fatcat CEOs and CFOs for these failed imploded thieving companies are walking away with money that is just inconceivable. I was ready to head over to the hunting store after watching the former CEO of Lehman sit in front of a Congressional hearing a month ago and was asked just how much money he walked away with when the company went under. To the best of his knowledge, he thinks it's somewhere around $680,000,000, if I remember the number correctly. Not a bad retirement fund. The big picture problem is that the government, the financial institutions, the investors, the speculators, the business leaders, the company directors, the advisers, and everybody else with a key role in all this are all doing one thing, trying to cash out and take home the biggest prize, regardless of the fact that more money has been taken out of the US markets in the last three months than was lost during the entire depression, more than 40% of our financial infrastructure has been lost, and the big piece of news that I'm not so shocked hasn't been repeated, is that during the meeting with the big 3 in Washington last Monday, political leaders asked Paulson what kind of dollar figure he could put together to offer the auto industry, and his initial response was "nothing". The reason being he said, was that just recently, the White House authorized a loan of somewhere in the ballpark of 1.8 trillion dollars. To who? They asked, and Paulson's response was "as part of the details of the loan, I'm not allowed to disclose any details of where the money went". So, basically, the US Treasury was emptied. Not a bad parting FU gift from this administration. I'm sure you won't hear much about that any time soon.

I can't believe how our tax dollars are getting squandered. We just keep digging bigger and bigger holes for our childern.

[SteveR]

Bad news for the bailout idea; Republican leader of the House Financial Services Committee says he won't back a bailout for Detroit.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/19/news/companies/auto_hearing/index.htm?postversion=2008111912

[79CamaroDiva]

Actually, looking it up right now, the number isn't exact, but it's more like 2-3 trillion to date, and speculators are saying the number could be as high as 4-6 trillion. In addition, Bloomberg, Inc. has filed a lawsuit against the FED for non-disclosure.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/107340/$2_trillion_handed_out_by_paulson_and_bernanke,_bu t_who_got_it,_nobody_knows/

http://investment-blog.net/how-many-banks-will-file-bankruptcy-without-recent-2-trillion-emergency-loan-from-fed/

and speaking of wasted/lost/stolen money, here's a story I'm sure you'll all enjoy. I'm not sure how many of you heard about this, but recently it's being reported that somewhere in the ballpark of $13 billion was taken out as cash, strapped to pallets, and flown over to Iraq, only to magically vanish.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202053.html?nav=rss_nation

http://www.prisoners.com/12bil$.html

http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/corruption_9_billion_cash_airlifted_from_fed_to_ir aq_go_missing.htm

time to move. i hope you learn foreign languages quickly.

[BigAls87Z28]

Bad news for the bailout idea; Republican leader of the House Financial Services Committee says he won't back a bailout for Detroit.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/19/news/companies/auto_hearing/index.htm?postversion=2008111912

It looks dead either way. Bush will veto it, if it some how gets past the Reps.
They are grilling them on every angle, even calling them out for not taking commercial transportation instead of personal jets.
Perhaps a misstep on PR's part (wouldnt be the first time) but come on people. How many senators took commercial air lines to fly to and from thier houses and washington?

[BonzoHansen]

Perhaps?!?!?!? Giant F-U. The respective BoDs need their heads examined if the CEOs still have jobs next week.

[Tsar]

Actually, it would be more like a business that its chief product, (In GM's case, its only product) has either stop selling or selling at such low levels due to outside circumstances. And that no matter what steps you have taken to slim down and reduce your overhead, the people are not buying your product and cannot produce the revenue levels to keep the company moving foward. they will need a loan to move foward to get through this troubled economic times.
We arent bailing out the Big 3, we arent propping up bad business and thats the problem people need to understand. As GM's CEO Rick Wagoneer said yeterday, that late last year GM made massive moves to turn the company around. The press, wall street, everyone saw light at the end of the tunnel. Then this economic meltdown happend, and GM was stuck right in the middle of revamping its costs, revamping its business, putting together a very expensive advanced powertrain program together, when the floor fell out on thier business.I highlighted the failing business part. No matter how you wanna spin this, investing money into a business that's failing or about to fail is a bad idea. Are you gonna argue that investing in a failing business if a good idea?

How many shares of GM stock do you own, Al?

Off topic, aren't you on vaca before your new job? shouldn't you be trying to sex your gf instead of hanging out here. :lol:

[Tsar]

Perhaps?!?!?!? Giant F-U. The respective BoDs need their heads examined if the CEOs still have jobs next week.

I thought it was funny when only one of them agreed to get 1 dollar pay, the other two didn't want any of that :lol:

[BonzoHansen]

I thought it was funny when only one of them agreed to get 1 dollar pay, the other two didn't want any of that :lol:

Which one?

[Tsar]

Which one?
I believe that Chrysler CEO said he was prepared to take that step.

[BigAls87Z28]

Nardelli. But he's got plenty of cash after he raped Home Depot.

Mullaly is the highest paid CEO there, but a large margin.
Wagoneer cut his pay 50% for a few years and the Board reinstated his full sallary this past October.
He said he would do it again.

[BigAls87Z28]

I highlighted the failing business part. No matter how you wanna spin this, investing money into a business that's failing or about to fail is a bad idea. Are you gonna argue that investing in a failing business if a good idea?

How many shares of GM stock do you own, Al?

Off topic, aren't you on vaca before your new job? shouldn't you be trying to sex your gf instead of hanging out here. :lol:

GM isnt failing because they cant sell cars. People cant get credit to buy cars. NO ONE is buying cars. I dont know if you look around, but even the Big Japanese 3 are hurting in America. There is a field of imported vehicles sitting on the docks in Long Beach.

I currently own 200 shares, and have taken a large loss, as have family members.

I took my vacation time as part of my 2 weeks, I still have about 30ish hrs left. As for "sexing" my gf, in grown up world, adults have jobs. She is one of thoes people that tend to work between the hours of 9 to 5.

Shouldnt you be getting hammerd and falling into curbs?

[Tsar]

I think all of them have PLENTY of cash, AL. Not just Nardelli. :shrug:

[BigAls87Z28]

Sure they do. Mullaly got a nice going away present on top of being the highest paid CEO there. Rick has been part of GM for a while, no doubt and Nardelli is also getting a good chunk of change.

IMO, Chrysler should have let Jim Press, former Pesident of Toyota North America and the former highest ranking outsider inside Toyota who is now part of Chrysler.

[Tsar]

GM isnt failing because they cant sell cars. People cant get credit to buy cars. NO ONE is buying cars. I dont know if you look around, but even the Big Japanese 3 are hurting in America. There is a field of imported vehicles sitting on the docks in Long Beach.

I currently own 200 shares, and have taken a large loss, as have family members.

I took my vacation time as part of my 2 weeks, I still have about 30ish hrs left. As for "sexing" my gf, in grown up world, adults have jobs. She is one of thoes people that tend to work between the hours of 9 to 5.

Shouldnt you be getting hammerd and falling into curbs?
They are failing, period. I do not care why. Failing business = bad investment of MY money.

200 shares, that's like 600 dollars in today's price, right? WOW aren't you the big spender in something you believe in! You do not want to sacrifice your money but MY money is ok, cool beans!

There's time before and after 9 and 5 too! And btw not everyone works from 9 to 5.

I do not get hammered anymore, so big fail on your part. Not as large as GM fail though.

[SteveR]

GM isnt failing because they cant sell cars. People cant get credit to buy cars. NO ONE is buying cars. I dont know if you look around, but even the Big Japanese 3 are hurting in America. There is a field of imported vehicles sitting on the docks in Long Beach.


That's definitely true. When we were looking at cars last month we stopped at a big GM dealership on Rt. 46 and based on their size and inventory, I'm guessing they used to do about 100-130 cars a month. When we were there at the end of last month, the entire dealership had only sold 8 cars. EIGHT! The salesperson told us that because of the economy and the banks, all leases were canceled through GMAC, and if you wanted to finance, you better have perfect credit and 1/3 down. So the banks are also to blame in all of this. People can't buy cars if they can't get loans.

[BigAls87Z28]

They are failing, period. I do not care why. Failing business = bad investment of MY money.

200 shares, that's like 600 dollars in today's price, right? WOW aren't you the big spender in something you believe in! You do not want to sacrifice your money but MY money is ok, cool beans!

Yeah, you are right. Right now. I bought 100 shares around 15 bucks, and another 100 shares or so around 12.
No, its not a lot, and yeah thats a big loss.

There's time before and after 9 and 5 too! And btw not everyone works from 9 to 5.

I do not get hammered anymore, so big fail on your part. Not as large as GM fail though.

Yes there is, but after I feel great, I come back here and get to see your drivel and I get upset.

[Tsar]

Yeah, you are right. Right now. I bought 100 shares around 15 bucks, and another 100 shares or so around 12.
No, its not a lot, and yeah thats a big loss.



Yes there is, but after I feel great, I come back here and get to see your drivel and I get upset.
Well thanks for keeping my company on my school days :wavey:

[BigAls87Z28]

Welcome

Here is some other info..

CNBC has been tracking the number more closely than others. Their total ( allocated and or spent) for the USA IS 4.23 trillion dollars - as of 14 0r 17 NOV 2008.

Lets see.... one trillion equals 1,000 billion....... so 4,230,000,000,000 for 'The Financial Sector' and in terms of spent for Automotive.....ZIP.

'Promised'....... 50 biilion, reneged on 25 billion and 25 billion stuck in limbo at the DOE..... yep, close enough for Government work - especially this one.

So 4,230,000,000,000 vs 25,000,000,000 is a ratio of 4,230:25

Or 169.2:1

Oh and that 169.2 is a 'gimme' and the "1" is an interest bearing loan.

[BonzoHansen]

GM, Ford Executives Say No To $1 Salary In Exchange For Government Aid
11/19 3:06 am (ON)
Story 0837 (F, GM)

By Josh Mitchell and Siobhan Hughes

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- The chief executives of General Motors Corp. (GM) and Ford Motor Co. (F) said Wednesday they wouldn't accept a $1 salary in exchange for government aid to their imperiled companies, as the head of the former Chrysler Corp. did a generation ago.

During a hearing Wednesday, a member of the House Financial Services Committee told Rick Wagoner of GM and Alan Mulally of Ford that reducing their annual salaries to $1 would be an important symbolic gesture as they lobby for $25 billion in loans funded by tax dollars. Chrysler's Lee Iacocca worked for that wage when his company was bailed out by the government in the 1980s.

"I'm willing to do what I've been doing," Wagoner said, saying he has already accepted a significant wage decrease and given up other forms of compensation. But he stopped short of saying he would accept a $1 salary.

Mulally said: "I understand your point about the symbol. But I think, not just for me, but we're trying to fill a skilled and motivated team."

Pressed on whether he would work for $1 a year, Mulally said, "I think I'm OK where I am."


The chief executive of Chrysler LLC, Robert Nardelli, had said Tuesday he would be willing to work under that salary as a condition for a federal bailout package.

-By Josh Mitchell, Dow Jones Newswires;

[BigAls87Z28]

Throw that article with the taking of thier private jets article into the fire would you?

Them taking a salary of a dollar would be worthless and is more symbolisim then anything else.

[Tsar]

So they want my money, but do not want to sacrifice their own money? :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

Yes, thats it. They want to continue to fly in thier private jets, and they want to bath in tax payers money while their companies fall around them.

[SteveR]

Welcome

Here is some other info..

CNBC has been tracking the number more closely than others. Their total ( allocated and or spent) for the USA IS 4.23 trillion dollars - as of 14 0r 17 NOV 2008.

Lets see.... one trillion equals 1,000 billion....... so 4,230,000,000,000 for 'The Financial Sector' and in terms of spent for Automotive.....ZIP.

'Promised'....... 50 biilion, reneged on 25 billion and 25 billion stuck in limbo at the DOE..... yep, close enough for Government work - especially this one.

So 4,230,000,000,000 vs 25,000,000,000 is a ratio of 4,230:25

Or 169.2:1

Oh and that 169.2 is a 'gimme' and the "1" is an interest bearing loan.

you really have to wonder what 4.23 trillion dollars is being spent on. I mean, you could terraform and populate a distant planet with a new race of humans with that kind of money. And still have enough left over to bailout Detroit :rofl:

[Tsar]

Yes, thats it. They want to continue to fly in thier private jets, and they want to bath in tax payers money while their companies fall around them.

I do not care about them having jets, they work for a corporation, they are suppose to have jets. Probably not flying them from work to home, but whatever. But I do NOT want to give MY money to them. I tell you what, how about you start a list of people of who WANT to bail out GM, and then you guys can put together as much money as you guys want, and give it to GM. Win win situation for everyone!

EDIT* If you find 100 million people to support you, you only have to donate 250 bucks each. I'm sure GM would open an account for "donations", if you ask them nicely. Now go have a bawl! You, almost single handed, can be responsible for the saving of the Big 3, you can be famous, man!!!

[LTb1ow]

Mad max time!

[BonzoHansen]

Throw that article with the taking of thier private jets article into the fire would you?

Them taking a salary of a dollar would be worthless and is more symbolisim then anything else.Of course it would be. Now it's a ****ing PR nightmare. They blew that big time. That was such a stupuid move it's incalculable - and indefensible.

[LS1Hawk]

I think if they took the $1 salaries it would have gone over very well with the general public and would have swung the pendulum in the Big 3's favor. Too late now.

[DevilDougWS6]

Wow you should be a detective! :lol:

and you obviously werent understanding what al was trying to say. so i simplified it for you.

so stfu and stop being an arrogant/sarcastic prick.

[Tsar]

and you obviously werent understanding what al was trying to say. so i simplified it for you.

so stfu and stop being an arrogant/sarcastic prick.What makes you think I didn't understand it? Just because I do not agree with something doesn't mean I do not understand it. Good luck with that detective career. :lol:

[Tsar]

Don't know how credible Canadian newspapers are but anyways.

China’s Ministry of Industry and Information Technology– the state regulator of China’s auto industry– who dropped the hint that “the auto manufacturing giants in China, such as Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC) and Dongfeng Motor Corporation, have the capability and intention to buy some assets of the two crisis-plagued American automakers

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2008/11/19/02867.html

[DevilDougWS6]

What makes you think I didn't understand it? Just because I do not agree with something doesn't mean I do not understand it. Good luck with that detective career. :lol:

because you kept posting how it was no big deal and everyone that would become unemployed could just go find another job because "your family did it".

[SteveR]

Don't know how credible Canadian newspapers are but anyways.



http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2008/11/19/02867.html

and that goes back to a problem I posed back in like September of when the stock prices fall to these lows, and there is the possibility of a government intervention, and the projection of the stocks going up, the problem with foreign controlling stakes being bought in essential American infrastructure becomes a huge issue.

[Tsar]

because you kept posting how it was no big deal and everyone that would become unemployed could just go find another job because "your family did it".

I fully comprehend both sides of the argument, but to me worthless dollar is a bigger issue for my future. As stated before, skilled people will find new work, people who work at the car wash, that were magically included in the 3 million figure, can go and find some other menial work. However, people who have failed to diversify themselves will be out of a job, and that's their fault. And yes anyone can go out and get a job, I can go get one right now and start on Monday, and If my company was going out of business I would.

Anyways, I've been over this already, if you have failed to comprehend the issue I was talking about than... well too bad for you.

[Savage_Messiah]

Don't know how credible Canadian newspapers are but anyways.



http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2008/11/19/02867.html

Dongfeng (which means “East Wind”) was founded at the behest of Mao Zedong himself in 1968.

Lol... Mao-founded company.... lemme rephrase, communist leader-founded company (this is backwards already), wants to in a very capitalistic move, buy out 1-2 American automakers.


Who's got a fallout shelter? :lol:

[2RARE84s]

Who's got a fallout shelter? :lol:

I already started digging.. wanna help?

[Tsar]

Lol... Mao-founded company.... lemme rephrase, communist leader-founded company (this is backwards already), wants to in a very capitalistic move, buy out 1-2 American automakers.


Who's got a fallout shelter? :lol:
Well I look at it as a guaranteed success. It would be the same if Putin founded an arms dealer :lol:

[BonzoHansen]

IMO this means RW is on his way out & fast....this will be in tomorrow's WSJ.

Bankruptcy Is Option to GM Board
WSJ NOVEMBER 22, 2008

DETROIT -- Members of General Motors Corp.'s board of directors are willing to consider "all options" for the ailing auto maker, including an eventual filing for bankruptcy protection, a stance that puts them in rare disagreement with Chairman and Chief Executive Rick Wagoner, people familiar with the matter said.

As part of his push to win a federal bailout for the company, Mr. Wagoner told Congress this week that GM management believes bankruptcy protection is not a viable option for the company. Instead, GM is focusing on persuading lawmakers to provide financial help, Mr. Wagoner said.

The board, which in the past has publicly offered Mr. Wagoner its strong support, agrees that seeking government funding is the company's top priority. But it isn't willing to dismiss the possibility of a bankruptcy filing, say people familiar with the thinking of the board's outside directors.

In a statement provided to The Wall Street Journal on Friday, GM said the board had discussed bankruptcy but didn't view it as a "viable solution to the company's liquidity problems." The board "is committed to considering all options in light of circumstances as they may develop." A GM spokesman, Tony Cervone, said that management is considering doing everything in its power to avoid a filing.

GM said Mr. Wagoner declined to be interviewed. Several of GM's board members could not be reached for comment on Friday. It is unclear whether the board has hired independent advisers to help it evaluate options it may have to consider.

New signs of tension in the boardroom could complicate the next few weeks for Mr. Wagoner, 55 years old. In the past month, he has had to acknowledge GM is using cash at an alarming rate. Mr. Wagoner said that as soon as January, amid frozen credit markets and a collapse in demand for automobiles, the company could fall short of the minimum levels it needs to stay out of bankruptcy court. On Friday, GM shares closed at $3.06, up 18 cents, or 6.25%. A year ago, the stock was trading at about $42.
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Friday's split represented at least the second time in recent weeks the board has shown a willingness to oppose Mr. Wagoner. This fall, Mr. Wagoner's management team presented a plan to potentially merge with Chrysler LLC. Some directors gave that plan a cold reception, according to people familiar with the meetings. By early November, when GM was set to report deep losses and $6.9 billion in cash outflows for the third quarter, the board encouraged GM management to quit the merger talks and focus solely on its liquidity crisis, these people said.

Of GM's 14 board members, nine have been in place since Mr. Wagoner became chairman in 2003. Many were elected when Mr. Wagoner's mentor and predecessor, Jack Smith, was running the auto maker. Lead director George Fisher, the retired chairman of Eastman Kodak Co., several times in recent years voiced support for Mr. Wagoner as the company racked up billions in losses. Other directors include Phil Laskawy, the retired Chairman of Ernst & Young, who was recently named Chairman of Fannie Mae, and University of North Carolina president Erskine Bowles, who was chief of staff for President Bill Clinton.

In a break from its traditional monthly board meetings, early in the summer the board started convening by phone each Friday. In recent weeks it has added several more weekly teleconferences to discuss how GM should approach the liquidity option.

On Friday, GM said it is pushing ahead with new cost-cutting measures. It said three plants in the U.S. and one in Ontario, Canada, would extend their normal two-week holiday shut-downs into January. It also said it would close down an Ontario truck plant sooner than it had planned.

GM also confirmed it is ending leases on two of the five remaining corporate jets in its fleet. The move comes after Mr. Wagoner and Detroit's two other auto CEOs were chastised in Congress for flying corporate jets to meetings this week in which they asked for billions of dollars in public assistance.

"We understand the symbolic issue of people showing up in Washington in corporate jets," GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said. "We're very sensitive to that."

Mr. Wagoner and the chief executives of Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC were in Washington hoping to get $25 billion from the $700 billion fund administered by the Treasury Department for troubled financial institutions, or to persuade Congress to accelerate the release of $25 billion in loans that had already been pledged to Detroit through an Energy Department fuel-efficiency program.

Mr. Wagoner, Ford's Alan Mulally and Chrysler's Robert Nardelli told lawmakers they have been restructuring their companies and need bridge loans to carry them through until the economy recovers. Mr. Wagoner asked the government for $10 billion to $12 billion in immediate funding.

All three expressed concern that a bankruptcy filing by any one of their companies could cause a collapse of the others. Because the companies share suppliers, one maker's failure could bring down the supplier network, they say, impacting one or both of the others. They also point to studies showing that consumers would be unwilling to buy cars from bankrupt auto makers, out of concern that warranties may not be honored or spare parts could become unavailable.

Lawmakers were skeptical that the companies had taken the tough steps to put their companies on the road to profitability. After enduring two days of harsh criticism, the Detroit CEOs were told to come back by Dec. 2 to describe how they'd use taxpayer funds to become "viable."

On Friday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said in a letter that auto makers must provide "a forthright, documented assessment" of how much cash they need to become stable for the long term. They also said the companies, if granted loans, must make the government senior to all other creditors, meet fuel-efficiency targets, limit executive pay and offer warrants to allow taxpayers to profit if the companies recover.

Some in Congress remain convinced that bankruptcy is a possible avenue. Republican Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee, a member of the Senate Banking Committee, said Republican senators have been discussing a so-called prepackaged bankruptcy, in which creditors agree to restructure debts before a company seeks court protection.

Companies sometimes are able to use such an option to avoid long stays in bankruptcy court. Bankruptcy experts warn, however, that a bankruptcy proceeding for a large company such as GM could get bogged down because of its complex union and dealership contracts and array of creditors.
—Sharon Terlep and Josh Mitchell contributed to this article.

[foff667]

Has anyone talked about the fact that laid off workers still receive 95% of their pay even though they aren't building cars as part of their contract?

The whole thing has been about the profit margin but I'm not sure if this has been talked about, obviously if they are paying a premium for these workers and then laying them off & still paying 95% of said premium thats gotta hurt. There was someone on LS1tech talking about someone getting this pay for up to 40 weeks at a clip.

Thats just crazy IMO and if something isn't done it will continue from my understanding, again I'm the last guy you'd be asking about the in's & outs of GM but man, something needs to be done about that.

-Bill

[BigAls87Z28]

Has anyone talked about the fact that laid off workers still receive 95% of their pay even though they aren't building cars as part of their contract?

The whole thing has been about the profit margin but I'm not sure if this has been talked about, obviously if they are paying a premium for these workers and then laying them off & still paying 95% of said premium thats gotta hurt. There was someone on LS1tech talking about someone getting this pay for up to 40 weeks at a clip.

Thats just crazy IMO and if something isn't done it will continue from my understanding, again I'm the last guy you'd be asking about the in's & outs of GM but man, something needs to be done about that.

-Bill


You can look at it one of 2 ways.
1: GM is spending money on workers when they dont make a car
2: GM takes care of thier people

[foff667]

You can look at it one of 2 ways.
1: GM is spending money on workers when they dont make a car
2: GM takes care of thier people

They need to take care of themselves now.

I wonder what will happen to their employees that they were "taking care of" so well if they do somehow go bankrupt?

What will happen to their former, now retired, employees that they took care of? If cashflow is gone do their pensions just get cutoff?

I mean seriously, its great that they wanted to take care of them through thick and thin but they didn't look out for their own best interests from what I can tell and now its gonna bite em in the butt.

Sounds like their employees didn't really help this situation much but I guess GM just wanted to play the nice guy roll & roll over for the union.

-Bill

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, people have said that GM is a Healthcare Finance company that sells cars on the side.

What you are saying Bill is what the Senate wanted to know about. Its become so common and been for so long, that no one in the auto world would question it, but jobs bank and things like that are perplexing to your average person.

[DevilDougWS6]

Anyways, I've been over this already, if you have failed to comprehend the issue I was talking about than... well too bad for you.

there are a lot of issues being thrown around in here.

[Frosty]

Did you see the Treasury Department is weighing it's options on bailing out Citigroup? Yet another **** up in the financial sector and yet they still can't come up with a plan to throw Detroit a bone...

This is very frustrating to watch.

[damon_Z]

...obviously if they are paying a premium for these workers and then laying them off & still paying 95% of said premium thats gotta hurt...

-Bill

It's an outrage, because every other laid off person has to line up in the unemployment line. I think the nicest thing GM should do is just give these workers a cardboard box for them to live in.

[SteveR]

In other news, Congress said today that they'll hand over 10-20 billion to Citigroup. That sure was a quick decision.

[BigAls87Z28]

Awesome!! **** it! Give them 200 billion!!

[twin99]

They need to take care of themselves now.

I wonder what will happen to their employees that they were "taking care of" so well if they do somehow go bankrupt?

What will happen to their former, now retired, employees that they took care of? If cashflow is gone do their pensions just get cutoff?

I mean seriously, its great that they wanted to take care of them through thick and thin but they didn't look out for their own best interests from what I can tell and now its gonna bite em in the butt.

Sounds like their employees didn't really help this situation much but I guess GM just wanted to play the nice guy roll & roll over for the union.

-Bill


I read somewhere that there pensions are backed by the US gov't.
So even if GM goes bankrupt they would get money.

[BonzoHansen]

I read somewhere that there pensions are backed by the US gov't.
So even if GM goes bankrupt they would get money.

Google PBGC

[BonzoHansen]

IMO He is dead nut on. I'm sending this to my congressman.


If I had the floor at the auto rescue talks...

BY MITCH ALBOM
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

OK. It's a fantasy. But if I had five minutes in front of Congress last week, here's what I would've said:

Good morning. First of all, before you ask, I flew commercial. Northwest Airlines. Had a bag of peanuts for breakfast. Of course, that's Northwest, which just merged with Delta, a merger you, our government, approved -- and one which, inevitably, will lead to big bonuses for their executives and higher costs for us. You seem to be OK with that kind of business.

Which makes me wonder why you're so against our kind of business? The kind we do in Detroit. The kind that gets your fingernails dirty. The kind where people use hammers and drills, not keystrokes. The kind where you get paid for making something, not moving money around a board and skimming a percentage.

You've already given hundreds of billions to banking and finance companies -- and hardly demanded anything. Yet you balk at the very idea of giving $25 billion to the Detroit Three. Heck, you shoveled that exact amount to Citigroup -- $25 billion -- just weeks ago, and that place is about to crumble anyhow.

Does the word "hypocrisy" ring a bell?

Protecting the home turf?

Sen. Shelby. Yes. You. From Alabama. You've been awfully vocal. You called the Detroit Three's leaders "failures." You said loans to them would be "wasted money." You said they should go bankrupt and "let the market work."

Why weren't you equally vocal when your state handed out hundreds of millions in tax breaks to Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Honda and others to open plants there? Why not "let the market work"? Or is it better for Alabama if the Detroit Three fold so that the foreign companies -- in your state -- can produce more?

Way to think of the nation first, senator.

And you, Sen. Kyl of Arizona. You told reporters: "There's no reason to throw money at a problem that's not going to get solved."

That's funny, coming from such an avid supporter of the Iraq war. You've been gung ho on that for years. So how could you just sit there when, according to the New York Times, an Iraqi former chief investigator told Congress that $13 billion in U.S. reconstruction funds "had been lost to fraud, embezzlement, theft and waste" by the Iraqi government?

That's 13 billion, senator. More than half of what the auto industry is asking for. Thirteen billion? Gone? Wasted?

Where was your "throwing money at a problem that's not going to get solved" speech then?

Watching over the bankers?

And the rest of you lawmakers. The ones who insist the auto companies show you a plan before you help them. You've already handed over $150 billion of our tax money to AIG. How come you never demanded a plan from it? How come when AIG blew through its first $85 billion, you quickly gave it more? The car companies may be losing money, but they can explain it: They're paying workers too much and selling cars for too little.

AIG lost hundred of billions in credit default swaps -- which no one can explain and which make nothing, produce nothing, employ no one and are essentially bets on failure.

And you don't demand a paragraph from it?

Look. Nobody is saying the auto business is healthy. Its unions need to adjust more. Its models and dealerships need to shrink. Its top executives have to downsize their own importance.

But this is a business that has been around for more than a century. And some of its problems are because of that, because people get used to certain wages, manufacturers get used to certain business models. It's easy to point to foreign carmakers with tax breaks, no union costs and a cleaner slate -- not to mention help from their home countries -- and say "be more like them."

But if you let us die, you let our national spine collapse. America can't be a country of lawyers and financial analysts. We have to manufacture. We need that infrastructure. We need those jobs. We need that security. Have you forgotten who built equipment during the world wars?

Besides, let's be honest. When it comes to blowing budgets, being grossly inefficient and wallowing in debt, who's better than Congress?

So who are you to lecture anyone on how to run a business?

Ask fair questions. Demand accountability. But knock it off with the holier than thou crap, OK? You got us into this mess with greed, a bad Fed policy and too little regulation. Don't kick our tires to make yourselves look better.

Contact MITCH ALBOM at 313-223-4581 or malbom@freepress.com. Catch "The Mitch Albom Show" 5-7 p.m. weekdays on WJR-AM (760).


http://www.freep.com/article/20081123/COL01/811230371/1082

[Frosty]

A-****ing-MEN!

[Tru2Chevy]

What a well written column....

- Justin

[NJSPEEDER]

That hits the nail on the head.

-Tim

[chemicalstylez]

Bail em out. GMs union contract expires in 2010, after that they'll be fine.

[shane27]

the only thing that is going to help companies bail themselves out is, themselves. make better products and reasonable prices and maybe people will start buying again. thanks to the internet people know whats good and what sucks.

companies cant get away with making **** products anymore.

[NJSPEEDER]

The domestics have as high or higher initial quality and customer satisfaction ratings than most of hte imported brands and if you go model line for model line, the domestics all cost less.

You can't reinvent an image over night, that takes time. The quality issues of the 70's and 80's are mere memories now, unfortunately, all too strong memories.

Because of the lack of support from our own government and poor advertising plans, some of the residue of that negative stereotype of the US manufacturers still exists. It won't take much help(to scale of the financial bail outs) to get them through this tough spot, but it will cost the nation immensely if we don't.

I think it is very important to remember that the automotive industry is asking for loans, not gifts. They are not asking for or expecting the free ride that the finance industry got. Just loans, at the fed prime rate, with stipulations of pay back and reorganization plans. This is not the same gift that our congress keeps handing to the financial market over and over again.

-Tim

[Frosty]

Tim is right, image is everything. People still think of the 90's and...hell..even early 2000's. You also have people that might have bought one 80's GM or Ford vehicle and it turned out to be junk, they still swear they'll never buy another domestic. The media doesn't help either...Toyota, Nissan and Hon-duh are Gods in this country, RARELY do you hear of any recalls over the news for them(and yes, they are recalls) yet the second GM or Ford has one it's like someone insulted Jesus...it's all over the news.

GM and Ford will be fine, they made mistakes and were late to the party on what vehicles are selling but they'll come out of this.