something to think about...

[jims69camaro]

on the eve of the killing of the man who said, "All we need is love", i got this email:

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning


Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees.. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a Christmas Tree, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'


In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem ( D r Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and
themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on


your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they


will think of you for sending it.


Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.



My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,


Ben Stein

hits home, doesn't it?

[Knipps]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/confessions.asp

It was written by him but there were some additions made over the years.

[LTb1ow]

Not really. Attributing the way things are to the removal of God from mainstream society seems kinda far fetched.

[sweetbmxrider]

eh, it makes you think. more-so how we are so absorbed by celebs and crap. some is far fetched though. some i can see.

[LTb1ow]

Thinking beyond what will give yourself immediate pleasure would solve a lot of problems. And people accepting responsibly for what they do. God is a crutch. You can use a lot of other ways to teach good ideals and morals to people.

[NJSPEEDER]

I think it is more about the sentiment that every traditional forum for teaching youth structure and respect has been cut down. In public schools in this country you are not allowed to even mention God in any form as a teacher, but why? If you look throughout history, many of the greatest and worst moments in history have been somehow related to or based on faith.

I do not think that prayer should be in school as a requirement, but having classes or discussions of religion in other classes when appropriate is logical and consistent with the concept of offering a complete education.

Public education, like so many other things, has spent more and more time over the years playing to the minority instead of the majority. It would be so easy to teach kids right and wrong based on history and faith while be inclusive of all faiths. After all, once broken down, the basis of nearly every faith on the planet is simply teaching people to be nice to each other.

[LTb1ow]

I will prob get laughed at for it, but the boyscouts had no real ties to any "religion" and they can and still do impart responsibility and self reliance to kids. Why can't schools do that? Why does society have an obsession with getting rich quick like every other retarded celeb?

[sweetbmxrider]

catholic school boy scouts had religion tied in

[NJSPEEDER]

Because kids are taught nothing in school. If you can handle the basics of memorizing things long enough to pass a test and how to logically deduce answers on a standardized test you have it made.

That really has nothing to do with religion to me, but more to the fact that kids are not taught application or consequences. There is no reason that everyone shoudl get a trophy just for showing up or make the honor roll because they got all A's in a class that is grade levels below their age.

I place that blame solely on the people who decided that there is such a thing as good enough. Good enough stops working once you get out of school, so why is it taught in school?

[LTb1ow]

Catholic school boy scouts? wth?
And boyscouts just require "some" sort of religion... its more of a personal thing.
Not that I was a boyscout or anything..... :shifty:

[LTb1ow]

Because kids are taught nothing in school. If you can handle the basics of memorizing things long enough to pass a test and how to logically deduce answers on a standardized test you have it made.

That really has nothing to do with religion to me, but more to the fact that kids are not taught application or consequences. There is no reason that everyone shoudl get a trophy just for showing up or make the honor roll because they got all A's in a class that is grade levels below their age.

I place that blame solely on the people who decided that there is such a thing as good enough. Good enough stops working once you get out of school, so why is it taught in school?

Agreed. I always thought it was funny for a teacher to just teach what was nesacery to pass the test.

[sweetbmxrider]

i went to catholic school and boy scouts was tied into it. run by the parents and whatever.

i have to admit, highschool was the biggest joke and prepared me for nothing.

[Blacdout96]

Nope, doesnt get me thinking. I got more important things to worry about then some person, who've Ive never met, I call my creator, I know who my creator is, im still iving with them. Now's the time to live, when the afterlife comes ( Then again I dont believe in religion, and if I did, the only thing I would believe in is reincarnation) Then is the time to say thank you. I say this, there are two things in this world you should never talk about publicly, cause it never ends well, and that politics and religion.

[LTb1ow]

Nah, I think religion can be discussed civilly. Its not just about telling someone that they are going to hell or that their god is made by man. Its a lot deeper than that.

[Blacdout96]

And as for boy scouts, yeah catholic is tied in it, also there is a Christian based boy scouts called the Royal Rangers. I used to be in it, pinewood derby and all, same thing ,different name.

[Knipps]

Religion is tied into boy scouts. Kind of.
does this line ring a bell?
"...to God and my country.."

Honestly I don't think it's the school's responsibility to teach right and wrong. If we're to learn everything in school what responsibility do the parents have?

[LTb1ow]

Well I think parents should be involved in their kids schooling so its a group effort.

[LTb1ow]

Religion is tied into boy scouts. Kind of.
does this line ring a bell?
"...to God and my country.."

Honestly I don't think it's the school's responsibility to teach right and wrong. If we're to learn everything in school what responsibility do the parents have?


And that was three years of heavy drinking ago, I don't remeber everything....

[sweetbmxrider]

i was just saying my catholic school had boyscouts and they tied religion in some. damn.

[LTb1ow]

Well I think we all agree that religion is overrated. Sorry Mr Jim. I guess we are products of a atheist society. :)
But I don't think any of us go out and hurt/maim/kill people?

[NJSPEEDER]

Agreed. I always thought it was funny for a teacher to just teach what was nesacery to pass the test.

It is because that is what they are allowed to teach. Over the years, curriculum has been taken out of the hands of educators and put under the per view of politicians. The only measure of smart and dumb they can understand is a number on a test that they most likely don't understand. Makes for a pretty sad standard if you ask me.

Think of it this way, in the 1950's almost every school board in the country was made up of teachers and curriculum was made by each individual teacher to achieve certain goals by years end, at that time almost every American home received and read a newspaper every day. The good was that more people who could read would do so actively, the bad was that because of the lack of national or even regional standards, a lower percentage of people were in the position to learn to read well.

Flash forward to the present, we have many times more educational opportunities, the percentage of money spent on education per person has gone up dramatically, and yet the same very low percentage of the population can read at or above a 3rd grade level.

The average college graduate in the US doesn't even read on what is considered a high school level, the average newspaper article is written on a 2nd grade level, and even periodicals considered "smart" like the Wall Street Journal only average a 5th grade level.

It is a shocking failure of the system. You don't even want to get me started on math skills in this country, math teaches deduction and logic, concepts so few people can actually handle that is disgusts me.

[Blacdout96]

Religion is tied into boy scouts. Kind of.
does this line ring a bell?
"...to God and my country.."

Honestly I don't think it's the school's responsibility to teach right and wrong. If we're to learn everything in school what responsibility do the parents have?

I do have to agree with Tim that the schools aren't teaching us properly. I had a girlfriend who was in the top 50 of her class, real smart and all, but was BOOK smart. There were alot of things outside the school walls I had to teach her. I would tell her the consequences of things, and, well she learned the hard way. Schools should make an effort to show right and wrong, beyond in school and out of school suspensions, blah blah blah, I see kids all the time coming out of school and just being plain bad, they have no sense of decency, or direction in life. Parents play a major role in this as well, but if the parents are no good, wheres the kid gonna learn right form wrong from.

[NJSPEEDER]

Well I think we all agree that religion is overrated. Sorry Mr Jim. I guess we are products of a atheist society. :)
But I don't think any of us go out and hurt/maim/kill people?

Do you think it is religion or faith that is over rated?

I see faith and religion as separate concepts. Religion is merely a structure of faith, with general guidelines or guiding concepts. Faith itself is something that we all have to some degree, faith the sun will come up tomorrow, faith that my car won't get stolen out of my driveway, faith that I can fart and have it stink enough to drive people out of a room.

There is a division as I see it, religious faith is individual, but faith in general seems vastly more common.

[LTb1ow]

It is because that is what they are allowed to teach. Over the years, curriculum has been taken out of the hands of educators and put under the per view of politicians. The only measure of smart and dumb they can understand is a number on a test that they most likely don't understand. Makes for a pretty sad standard if you ask me.

Think of it this way, in the 1950's almost every school board in the country was made up of teachers and curriculum was made by each individual teacher to achieve certain goals by years end, at that time almost every American home received and read a newspaper every day. The good was that more people who could read would do so actively, the bad was that because of the lack of national or even regional standards, a lower percentage of people were in the position to learn to read well.

Flash forward to the present, we have many times more educational opportunities, the percentage of money spent on education per person has gone up dramatically, and yet the same very low percentage of the population can read at or above a 3rd grade level.

The average college graduate in the US doesn't even read on what is considered a high school level, the average newspaper article is written on a 2nd grade level, and even periodicals considered "smart" like the Wall Street Journal only average a 5th grade level.

It is a shocking failure of the system. You don't even want to get me started on math skills in this country, math teaches deduction and logic, concepts so few people can actually handle that is disgusts me.

Well put. And Diffi Q's next semester woot!

[Knipps]

I have met way too many people who are book smart but when it comes to common sense and logic people are dumb as a stone. I was raised in a real Old-School type family. My dad was born in the 40s and my mom was raised in Outback Australia, no nonsense.

You can't teach common sense. But then again it's not so common anymore

[NJSPEEDER]

BTW, I am a proud Christian. Although I choose to keep my personal views to myself as they are not very traditional as to the role of religion in my life.

[LTb1ow]

Props to you. I am a Christian, I think.... But it just wasn't a needed thing in my life and I choose to disregard it. But I think there are many other options that provide the same rules to life as religion does.

[NJSPEEDER]

True, the same moral virtues can be taught through classic literature. Even though the themes are of religious value and traditional religious morals, most of the lessons are available in stories without specific religious tones. Then again, that leads us right back into the issues with literacy, comprehension, and application in this country.

[LTb1ow]

Jesus taught throw actions, why can't society?

[NJSPEEDER]

Jesus taught through actions, why can't society?

You just made my point about reading and application. :-?

[LTb1ow]

You just made my point about reading and application. :-?

I blame spell check. And or the fact that I am typing fast. :-?

[Blacdout96]

Technically Im methodist.....a.k.a. watered down Christianity, But personally Im Christmas, cause if Im gonna believe in an Imaginary guy, It might as well be someone who i know the EXACT day that he will be at my house. And hes not bringing pestilance, disease, and what not, no the dudes bringing me a new Huffy bike. Ive said this for many years, pisses religious people off, but when you think about it, makes good sense.

[Knipps]

I blame spell check. And or the fact that I am typing fast. :-?

wrong word spelled right.

[NJSPEEDER]

I piss religious people off all the time, ask Justin.

I believe in Christianity as more of a concept than a specific practice. The lessons are good and church provided a good support system and sense of community in my life when I really needed it.

I suppose my faith could work with any faith for what it provides me. In my case the church that I found helpful happened to be Christian.

Faith is individual and I can't bring myself to blame, hate, or otherwise refuse to accept someone else's individual views of religion.

[LTb1ow]

Throw and through, similar. Idk, I know my mistake and if your arguement is that,that mistake entails my lack of intelligence then you are wrong. I would have picked it up if I were to revise my work, but since this is an online forum, figured its not as important.

[Knipps]

My biggest beef is when people don't know there/their/they're. weather/whether too. how obvious is that one?

[Blacdout96]

I piss religious people off all the time, ask Justin.

I believe in Christianity as more of a concept than a specific practice. The lessons are good and church provided a good support system and sense of community in my life when I really needed it.

I suppose my faith could work with any faith for what it provides me. In my case the church that I found helpful happened to be Christian.

Faith is individual and I can't bring myself to blame, hate, or otherwise refuse to accept someone else's individual views of religion.

Tim, thank you, I jsut wish more peopel who are religious say that as well. there are too many people ive encountered who preach words of their religion, and talk down others, like their's is perfect, and everyone else is wrong, when in fact noone is wrong, thus why its beliefs, there is no right or wrong religion, everyone is entitled to a belief that suits them and comforts them the best....except for those religions dealing with magic underpants.

[LTb1ow]

There lack of intelligence is quite obvious by reading any of there material.


:)
Pisses me off. Or really short, choppy sentances.

[NJSPEEDER]

Throw and through, similar. Idk, I know my mistake and if your arguement is that,that mistake entails my lack of intelligence then you are wrong. I would have picked it up if I were to revise my work, but since this is an online forum, figured its not as important.

I know how you normally type, so I am sure it was an honest mistake. Just thought the timing was funny since that was exactly what we were talking about.

[Knipps]

There lack of intelligence is quite obvious by reading any of there material.


:)
Pisses me off. Or really short, choppy sentances.

I know how you normally type, so I am sure it was an honest mistake. Just thought the timing was funny since that was exactly what we were talking about.

:banghead: Was that?

[LTb1ow]

There lack of intelligence is quite obvious by reading any of there material.


:)
Pisses me off. Or really short, choppy sentances.


Tsk tsk.
:lol:
I did write it like that for a reason. Weather or not you like it. :wink:

[sweetbmxrider]

wrong word spelled write.

:-P















wait nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo do'h!

[NJSPEEDER]

Get back to the topic at hand kids. This is a constructive conversation and deserves better than being taken apart with mindless side conversation and commentary.

[jims69camaro]

Thinking beyond what will give yourself immediate pleasure would solve a lot of problems. And people accepting responsibly for what they do. God is a crutch. You can use a lot of other ways to teach good ideals and morals to people.

what is more well-rounded than the 10 commandments? i can't see another set of 'cast in stone' rules that are easier to follow that bring peace to both you and your fellow man. i'm not a bible thumper by any means, but when i was growing up i attended several churches and took theology in high school. i understand more than the next person what a crutch can be, yet i don't see people studying the bible or believing in god as being one.

even our laws can't surpass the 10 commandments. sure, there is a lot that is present in both, but our laws would take a 7 year-old years to understand. with the 10 commandments, it's all cut and dry - thou shalt not kill. easy enough to understand. yet, subtract that from a child's life and maybe they don't know it is wrong to kill. they pick up a gun and shoot someone. maybe if it was in their life from the beginning there wouldn't have been that crime...

[jims69camaro]

Nah, I think religion can be discussed civilly. Its not just about telling someone that they are going to hell or that their god is made by man. Its a lot deeper than that.

god is not made by man. religion is made by man. who truly knows what god is? i am not being lazy, i just don't capitalize god, since i don't believe as others do that there is a God. i have a more scientific approach that can be taught to people without the fear of hell/hades/pick your punishment for a life full of debauchery.

religion, on the other hand, was created by man. following religion gets people in line. it's also a great money maker. where else is it written that a tenth of your income should go to a certain institution? i still get 'offering' envelopes from churches i've only had a cursory relationship with. they want your money. period.

now, churches can and do have an impact on society. they are involved in many programs that help poor people. they have structured environments for learning what traditional marriage is. so religion can have a positive affect on people. i just can't do the whole 'leap of faith' thing. it defies logic and i like my educational packages to fit into a logical box. i excelled at math, but i hated it the whole time i was studying it. plane geometry was a walk in the park. calculus was, and still is, my favorite subject. computers was the next logical step for me, and i excelled at that, too. my favorite all-time subject was english. i guess i liked the concept that there are a set of ground rules but there are also exceptions to the rules. you can't find that in math.

i agree that religion can be discussed like any other topic. the problem arises when you tell a devout "insert religion here" that they are following precepts made by man, not by "God". they get all emotional about that. then, when you try to nail them down, they throw the "faith" thing at you, as if faith can explain everything. not my cup of tea. but i like the fact that we can chose our religion and that we have the freedom to study whichever religion we want.

[jims69camaro]

You can't teach common sense. But then again it's not so common anymore

i disagree. i think that through the proper up-bringing you most certainly can teach common sense. it begins in the home and that is where parents are dropping the ball these days. there are far too many babysitters: the TV, video games, hanging out at the local spot with a skateboard, etc. if people are taught common sense, whether by praise or humility (i think humility works best, as it's the way i learned) i think there would be fewer people who "fall through the cracks" in society. why are there more homeless now than throughout the entirety of history?

[jims69camaro]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/confessions.asp

It was written by him but there were some additions made over the years.

all of the text i quoted can be attributed to him. i read snopes before posting things i receive as emails. too many times i have been duped by an email, thinking it was true only to find out later on (much later, in most cases) that it has no basis in fact.

this post was made after reviewing snopes.com.

[jims69camaro]

Nope, doesnt get me thinking. I got more important things to worry about then some person, who've Ive never met, I call my creator, I know who my creator is, im still iving with them. Now's the time to live, when the afterlife comes ( Then again I dont believe in religion, and if I did, the only thing I would believe in is reincarnation) Then is the time to say thank you. I say this, there are two things in this world you should never talk about publicly, cause it never ends well, and that politics and religion.

do you have kids? are you planning on having kids? what will you teach them? how will they know right from wrong? do you plan on buying Dr. Spock's books? then this post does affect you. it might not get you thinking now but years down the road when you have kids you will look back on this and realize how much sense it really makes. when you take away the things that have helped form generations of people into law-abiding, society-involved, wage-earners then what is left? they are left to their own devices or what happens to appear on US weekly (is the point of the OP).

[jims69camaro]

My biggest beef is when people don't know there/their/they're. weather/whether too. how obvious is that one?

would of
could of
should of

that's actually a question on the SATs. the only question i can remember, because i laughed myself silly after reading it. i thought, is it possible that people actually use those phrases instead of the correct contraction could've, would've, should've? it boggled my mind for several days and embedded itself in my long-term memory. i'm still laughing to this day, even though i don't ask that question anymore. i see examples of it all of the time.

it's not that it bugs me, but what it does do is distract me from what the person is trying to say and i focus on the mistake made instead. silly, but it's the way my mind works when i read. i've blasted magazines for the lack of a text editor - something they should have but seldom does he/she/it catch those stupid, grade-school mistakes.

how anyone can mix up to, two and too is beyond me. they just don't care that they learned it wrong and are unwilling to try to fix it. they have that attitude that it's an online forum and spelling doesn't count. i used to love when people used to ask that question in english class, "Hey, teach, are youse subtracting for misstakes in spelling, two?" - or the classic, "Does spelling count?" well, it is english, after all... ;)

even better, and something i never thought i would see: hey, this is are club, you know.

and people put apostrophes where they don't belong, like in weird place's in sentence's. and then they dont use them when theyre necessary.

[Knipps]

:lol: glad to see we's not alone jim.

[WildBillyT]

I am a practicing Catholic but not in the typical sense. I believe in the moral teachings of love thy neighbor and do good to others etc and see that as the true meaning of the religion.

The problem is misinterpretation and ignorance in my opinion. Some of the greatest things I learned studying theology is that

A) The New Testament (which so many people like to thump) does not represent all writings about Jesus- the books that are included were selected by early Christians and members of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages to portray a particular view of Jesus. There are plenty of other "Gospels" (Gnostics included) that were rejected because of personal opinions of the authors

B) Certain practices in the faith (fasting on Fridays during lent) have nothing to do with the early teachings of Christianity- they have everything to do with people having enough food to last them the winter during famines, again in the Middle ages.


For me, when you boil off all of the "fluff" that's not really true to the real teachings of a religion you are left with a moral compass that helps you live your life working towards the good of a society. I don't think it really matters what religion, as long as something guides you.

[jims69camaro]

:rofl: