1971 Firebird

[usp55]

Just figured I'd start a thread on the 71 Firebird i just picked up. Big thanks to Matt (mc73nova) for helping me get it to my place. I was really looking for a split bumper camaro but i couldn't pass up this running 71 firebird for $1500. From the numbers I was able to pull off the block it looks like the motor is from a 73 firebird and its a poncho 400. It has a 3 speed manual.

Today was my first day with the car and I was curious to see how the floor boards were so I gutted the interior except for the dash. I pulled two full bags of old carpet and glued down material that easily weighed over 50lbs. I happy to say that it doesn't look too bad. Only 2 actual holes on the passenger side (see pics below) and a soft spot just under the clutch. Everything else seems to be nice and solid for the most part.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_3943.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_3951.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_3945.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_3946.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_3947.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_3949.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_3956.jpg


I was able to think about what i wanted to do with this car and I think I decided to have this as a weekend worrier that is also street-able. I dont think ill ever own a truck let alone a trailer to move it so it has to be street legal/pass inspection, but i don't really want to fully restore to original condition seeing as its only a base model/non number even close to matching car. 2 seats, a steering wheel, and some gauges. No bling, prob stay matte black or semi gloss (always wanted a road worrier-esk older car and 4th gens just don't look good in flat black)

Only thing to decide is how to handle the rear frame rails - tub/back half it or just get the reproduction frame rails? Either way I'm months away from saving up to do anything major and will prob change my mind several times. I am prob going to try and sell the white interior that came with the car. It has some green over spray on it so im not sure if its even worth anything.

Any thoughts, comments, ideas, all welcome. I'd like to know what you'd do with this car.

[Tru2Chevy]

Looks like you got yourself a good deal!

- Justin

[SRGN]

Good find, I love the early 2nd gen Firebirds. If the rear rails are bad, look into the Comp Engineering rails and subframe connectors. They move the leaf springs inboard, so you can keep the stock suspension but fit some more tire. Connectors (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CEE-3013) Rails (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CEE-3032)

[NJSPEEDER]

http://ecom.goodmarkindustries.com/cgi-bin/NLNETUPD?co_id=GM/&reqr_type=O&session_no=O1DZGD1OOZ1LTGB119EROFG0E&NL_ORDER_NO=0&cust_no=999999&LOC_NO=001&request_id=QCSTKLST1&mkt_level_1=1971&mkt_level_2=PONTIAC&mkt_level_3=FIREBIRD&mkt_level_4=&mkt_level_4_title=All%20parts

Excellent Resto parts. Most, if not all, the sheet metal you will need is available.

[BonzoHansen]

Do a lot of homework before you buy your 1st part.

[SRGN]

http://ecom.goodmarkindustries.com/cgi-bin/NLNETUPD?co_id=GM/&reqr_type=O&session_no=O1DZGD1OOZ1LTGB119EROFG0E&NL_ORDER_NO=0&cust_no=999999&LOC_NO=001&request_id=QCSTKLST1&mkt_level_1=1971&mkt_level_2=PONTIAC&mkt_level_3=FIREBIRD&mkt_level_4=&mkt_level_4_title=All%20parts

Excellent Resto parts. Most, if not all, the sheet metal you will need is available.

Most of the resto parts are made by one company, and reboxed by Goodmark, etc. I have the number of a guy in Millstone who has the same quality parts for a good deal without ridiculous shipping. He has a lot of metal in stock, saved me a ton so far on the stuff for my 67.

[ar0ck]

Hell of a deal man! Congrats on the pick up and good luck on the rest of the build!

[Featherburner]

Most of the resto parts are made by one company, and reboxed by Goodmark, etc. I have the number of a guy in Millstone who has the same quality parts for a good deal without ridiculous shipping. He has a lot of metal in stock, saved me a ton so far on the stuff for my 67.Care to share?

[SRGN]

Bernie
732-580-6612
classicrestorationparts@comcast.net

Found him from some other 1st gen owners who bought parts.

[usp55]

Thanks for the sites and info guys. I got a 500page catalog from classic industries that has most every part including all the sheet metal(wish they just sold the front sections separate), but its always nice to compare prices. I have so many questions i don't know where to start so i guess i have a lot of research to do.

[Featherburner]

Bernie
732-580-6612
classicrestorationparts@comcast.net

Found him from some other 1st gen owners who bought parts.

Thanks.

[JL8Jeff]

I have so many questions i don't know where to start so i guess i have a lot of research to do.

Looking at the floors and the fact you said the framerails need work, you might want to consider the full replacement floor section and rear framerails. Start with that as your focus for a sound foundation. Talk to a couple of the sponsors and see if one of them might be interested in doing the work. It might be a good learning experience for everyone. The shop doing my 69 Z28 showed me the full floor section he is putting in another JL8 car(that I used to own) and it's a really nice replacement part with much better structural support than doing any partial work will give you. The car doesn't look too bad, but as soon as you started replacing more than 1 floor section the full floor is a much better option.

[PolarBear]

Thanks.

+1. I will be calling that guy soon :nod:

[WildBillyT]

Looking at the floors and the fact you said the framerails need work, you might want to consider the full replacement floor section and rear framerails. Start with that as your focus for a sound foundation. Talk to a couple of the sponsors and see if one of them might be interested in doing the work. It might be a good learning experience for everyone. The shop doing my 69 Z28 showed me the full floor section he is putting in another JL8 car(that I used to own) and it's a really nice replacement part with much better structural support than doing any partial work will give you. The car doesn't look too bad, but as soon as you started replacing more than 1 floor section the full floor is a much better option.

Yeah, I had a really good experience with my full floor as well.

[FBODS4EVER]

sweet deal collin. if you are going weekend warrior. why dont you opt for the collector car insurance. no inspection req. youll get a exempt sticker. only downfall is it can only be driven like 3500 mi. a year or something like that. i loved my 72 ta. it was one of my lost treasures. good luck.

[BonzoHansen]

sweet deal collin. if you are going weekend warrior. why dont you opt for the collector car insurance. no inspection req. youll get a exempt sticker. only downfall is it can only be driven like 3500 mi. a year or something like that. i loved my 72 ta. it was one of my lost treasures. good luck.

He must go QQ.

http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Inspections/VehiclesExempt.htm

Car must be less than 25 years old to qualify for collector reg
http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/Vehicles/FACT_SHEET-Collector_Car_Status.pdf

[usp55]

so 25+ for QQ but i cant find any restrictions or qualifications for QQ tags. Millage, modifications, etc.

whats the benefit if QQ - no inspection?

[BonzoHansen]

no inspection. I think there is a usage limit (to/from an event or repair), but no mileage. As long as you aren't driving it daily you'll have no issues. I drive mine to work a lot, and just aimless cruising.

But a 71 is also an easy inspection. No smog to speak of.

You are also a long time from that.

[Featherburner]

You are also a long time from that.Why don't you kick him in the nuts while you're at it? :lol:

[BonzoHansen]

Why don't you kick him in the nuts while you're at it? :lol:

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/774_smiley_getting_kicked_in_the_balls.gif

[usp55]

ah its ok Bonzo is just trying to be realistic

So bonzo your saying inspection would be to had to pass? I would think it would be a pain in the ass to get this engine through inspection because of emissions and such. If thats the case than ill just get it on the road like any other car so i can actually enjoy it and drive it more than 3k a year.


Got some work done today on the bird. Got the front end and fenders off. Took a timing light to it with my father and learned how to do that and he taught me all about the distributor and the points and what not. Got her to run really nice with just the timing adjustments. Idles is nice and smooth. My carb is leaking and i cant tell from where. There is a spacer on it so im guessing one of those gaskets is the problem. Could the leak be from any other place but the gaskets? Also im taking the spacer off as the hood dosnt fit with it on and im not racing with this engine so i just want it to fit under my hood for now, ill sacrifice the 5 or so hp the spacer might give me.

Also does anyone have a cherry picker in south jersey? I might just buy one but i thought id ask. Gone pull the engine, replace motor mounts, POR-15 the front frame rails and cross member.

I got to figure out how to get the A-arms off so i can clean them up or even upgrade them while im in there. Any advice to get the off?

The driver side where has a spun stud and the lug wont come off, no idea how to get it off but not a big deal as i have plenty of room to work now.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4027.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4029.jpg

I don't know about u, but I'm loving the factory color. Prob wont paint it that color but every time i walk past it it grows on me.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4030.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

3000 miles is a lot of miles. My cars gets lots of miles and probably does not break 3000. Insurance may help make your decision if you get collector car insurance.

I'm sure you can find a hoist down there somewhere. I have one if you can't find one closer.

Another note - you might not want to sell or trash any parts until you are done with your project.

Take a lot of pics, tag & bag all bolts. Too many is better than not enouhg - a bag for each fender & shims, etc.

Go to year one and order service & assembly manuals. The code "NASTY15" will get you 15% off online puircahses, courtesy of nastyZ28. Best buy you will make for your project.

[PolarBear]

Another note - you might not want to sell or trash any parts until you are done with your project.

Take a lot of pics, tag & bag all bolts. Too many is better than not enouhg - a bag for each fender & shims, etc.

Go to year one and order service & assembly manuals. The code "NASTY15" will get you 15% off online puircahses, courtesy of nastyZ28. Best buy you will make for your project.

Baggin each thing is good advice if you plan on doing a resto. Just buy a lot of Zip loc bags and get some permanent markers. If you dont care too much about factory resto then it wont matter. I just throw all of them in to a coffee can or what ever. I plan on replacing a lot of them with stainless where I can and then (for camaro at least) they have a master bolt kit you can buy. Its like $200 for the RS kit.

I wouldnt buy too much from year one as they are already overpriced so 15% off overpriced is about what it should be but you can shop for better prices.

What is the code and name for the original color?

Also I would recommend taking the front suspension apart with the sub frame still on the car and the engine in the cradle. My cousin recommended that at the very least you do the a-arms with the engine in the cradle so if you pop a ball joint the frame doesnt flip over. May not happen but that engine weight will work in your favor.

Also FYI it looks like your floor is very close to my 71RS so if you cant find a floor pan for the 'bird you may be able to get the camaro one to work if you are not going to patch and want to replace. I need a LH side floor, if you need/want I can try to take detailed pictures and measurements on mine so you can see if yours is close

[BonzoHansen]

trust me, even if you do not plan on reusing a bolt, bag & tag anyway. For reference. And shims. you can always throw them out later.

Manuals are basically the same price everywhere. Buy them today.

Taking a-arms out is easy even with car apart. To get the srping back in w/o engine weight you have to use a spring compressor.

[usp55]

Already have the manuals, already have about 10 snack size zip lock bags full of labeled bolts; R fender, L fender, hood, etc.

But keep the tips coming.

I'm going to order the bolt kit for my car, about 200.
They sell the full floor pan correct for my year without the hump for the cat converter that the later model 2nd gens needed.

[JL8Jeff]

I wouldn't worry about registering it as a normal car, 3000 miles is a lot. Are you 25 or older? I think most collector insurance companies will only give a policy if you're 25 or older, you might want to research that. If you register the car as a classic then there is no inspection or emission's testing. I drive my 70 SS396 a lot and I've only put 4600 miles on it in the last 2-1/2 years.

[usp55]

yea your prob right, 25 in October.

[79T/A]

Nice find! Congrats on the project! I'll be watching this one as I'm building my '79.

[rscamaro73]

One of the sponsors over at NastyZ-28 - www.Fbodywarehouse.com


This guy deals with 'birds as well, and prolly likes them more than Camaros, so he has access to many more parts than some people will know of, plus he sells the same thing Classic has (at a cheaper price too). Gotten donor metal for my 73LT from him and couldn't be happier for the cost, and quality (other than still needing to install it).

Good luck with it....looks like a very good start....

[usp55]

12-31-08

pulled the top end today. Water pump had a leak and when i pulled it the bottom had a quarter size hole in it. The valve train looks fresh and i have new parts coming in the next week, water pump, gaskets, thermostat, hoses, etc.

Trying to decide on an intake/carb setup. When i pulled the carb and spacer today both gaskets were soaked with gas all the way through. The Holley carb doesn't fit on the 1975 intake without the spacer.


Also by tonight or tomorrow my pop is going to show me how to replaced and repacked the inner and outer bearings on the front since there were shot.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4033.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4034.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4035.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

Nice. Kyrlon semi-gloss black is good underhood (firewall, inner fenders, etc).

If the bearings are beat double check the spindles & races for wear. Putting on new rotors?

[usp55]

yea new rotors. had to drill out a stud to get the drivers side wheel off. gota love cobalt drill bits, like butta.

The bearing actually looks good, no grooves but the inner bearing was loose and not seated right. When i spun the rotor i could hear something wasn't right. The driver side looks great and i might not replace anything over there as it spins great no noise and outer bearing look nice.

[BonzoHansen]

Bearsing & seals are cheap. Change them all. Get good parts not cheapest. Quality of machined parts is relaly bad sometimes.

What, no air gun? They tear pesky stripped lugs off ASAP. :)

[usp55]

yea that came out wrong, i dont have to replace them but for a few bucks im just gona do it. Plus id like to learn to pack them too.

My brother has one but I think my compressor is a piece of **** and under powers it. So i just use my hand tools.

through rockauto about 220 for everything not bad at all
2 rotors
inner/outer bearing
2 new dust caps
brake pads
reman. calipers

[BonzoHansen]

do calipers local - cores and such are a pita by mail. Don't give back the cores until you know you are good (ie on the road). get good stuff, bca bearings, wagner rotors, etc.

I just got wear-ever (china crap) rear rotors for my DD from advance auto (that is all they had) and I had to return one because it was poorly casts and had voids in the braking surface!

[usp55]

3$ core on the calipers. just gona keep the originals, no shipping

yep BCA/NATIONAL Part # A6 bearings $7

not cheapin out, Ever head or RAYBESTOS for rotors? Prob just get acdelco or ill look into wagner like u suggested

[BonzoHansen]

RayB isn't bad. Did you order seals?!

[usp55]

well i didn't order anything yet but yea i have seals in my shopping cart, prob place the order on Friday (payday)

[JL8Jeff]

If you have a chance to stop by your local NAPA, see what they have for rotors. They usually have 3 different levels of quality and it's great to compare the differences in person if you can.

[camaro2you]

Good luck on the project, if you ever need help shoot me a pm im local.

[WildBillyT]

If you have a chance to stop by your local NAPA, see what they have for rotors. They usually have 3 different levels of quality and it's great to compare the differences in person if you can.

Yep. Hit up NAPA and check them out. Raybestos rotors are pretty good, and I think they stock SKF bearings which are also good.

[1QWIKBIRD]

12-31-08

pulled the top end today. Water pump had a leak and when i pulled it the bottom had a quarter size hole in it. The valve train looks fresh and i have new parts coming in the next week, water pump, gaskets, thermostat, hoses, etc.

Trying to decide on an intake/carb setup. When i pulled the carb and spacer today both gaskets were soaked with gas all the way through. The Holley carb doesn't fit on the 1975 intake without the spacer.


Also by tonight or tomorrow my pop is going to show me how to replaced and repacked the inner and outer bearings on the front since there were shot.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4033.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4034.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4035.jpg

I don't know if its my eyes, but in the last picture (driver side valve train) it looks like the very first rocker arm has its adjusting nut cranked down really far compared to the rest of the rocker arms on that side and those on the passenger side. Is it my eyes or did you pull that rocker to inspect something? Of did you loosen all the others for inspection?

Chris

[usp55]

i didnt touch anything but the covers

[BonzoHansen]

Good eye Chris, that one looks strange.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Could just be a different style/make/manufacturer of adjustment nut. Does the adjustment nut look the same as all the others or is it physically different? Does the top of the rocker arm stud look to be at the same height as all the others?

Not trying to scare you, but that looks out of place at first glance. All the other rocker arms have maybe 2, 3, or 4 threads sticking out past the top of the adjustment nut, but that one rocker looks to be sticking well beyond the top of the adjustment nut.

Now that I look more closely, it appears that the top of that rocker stud is not threaded all the way to the top, so it could just be a different type rocker stud/adjustment nut combo on that one cylinder compared to the others.

It might be worth checking the adjustment on that cylinder once its up and running again.

Good luck and like other have said, pictures, baggies and an assembly manual go a long way. Another tip from personal experience, the fewer hands involved in disassembly the better. Chances are if you take it apart yourself, you'll have a better shot of knowing how it goes back together and will know which fasteners go where.

And don't throw anything out, no matter how bad a shape it is in. Often times the orginal part will fit waaaay better then the reproduction ever could. Case in point, on my 70 Nova I mistakenly got rid of my bumpers, because they were i poor shape (not bent, just really bad chrome and some serious digs) Turns out I would have been $$$ ahead and a whole lot less frustrated had I kept them and got them restored versus buying reproduction bumpers. I had to buy 3 front (yes 3 different front bumpers) before I found 1 that fit the car half way decent (and its still not perfect). Just because someone offers a repro part is no guarantee that it will fit, much less look good.

Chris

[usp55]

Haven't thrown anything away and labeled things as best as possible and i have taken every bolt off and it was pretty straight forward and i feel i have a really good idea of how to get it all back together

that is the only nut that is different, here is a better pic
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4036.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

..and that explains that... :)

[mc73nova]

wow, a lot has changed since I last saw it. looking good so far, if you need anything just shoot me or camaroAL a pm. glad I could help.

[rscamaro73]

Timken are good for bearings as well. Autozone had those for my truck.
inner/outer, both races (new), seals, waterproof, hi-temp bearing grease (hand packing is a skill you just HAVE to learn, and its easy (just don't blow dry bearings with air and spin them).

Also, as far as 'details'.....while I too had one of those gas filters....once I dumped it for a FRAM $3 clear plastic filter, I lost some hard starting issues.

Can't imagine why someone would run poly locks and one stock nut/ball unless they lost the other one....lol. Think I got a set here that I could let go cheap (since they don't fit the BBC's 8-)).

Good to see you tearing into the engine like that (simple stuff)....saves you more in the long run, plus YOU know what's done with it.

[usp55]

Well got the engine out today. First time ever pulling an engine and it wasn't that bad. If anyone needs a hoist in south Jersey I got one now, broke down and bought one.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4047.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4048.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

Nice work light. Very fashionable. LOL


Nice job. Been there, done that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_sfoff010kk.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=sfoff010kk.jpg)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_img3772ny5.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=img3772ny5.jpg)

[WildBillyT]

Nice work light. Very fashionable. LOL


Nice job. Been there, done that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_sfoff010kk.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=sfoff010kk.jpg)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_img3772ny5.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=img3772ny5.jpg)

The Bonzo way of replacing a clutch, right? LOL

[usp55]

I didn't have much time to work on it but i got most everything off the the frame rails: upper and lower control arms, brake line, fuel line, steering.. I have some por15 and por15 top coat coming and a crap load of simple green to clean everything.

I just have one question. Should i remove the frame from the body or is that going to cause more headaches for me trying to get it back on?

one more, is the por15 going to take the heat right there by the engine and the headers? or should i coat it with their higher heat stuff?

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4050.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4051.jpg

[Featherburner]

POR will be fine everywhere on the frame. You should pull the frame and replace the frame mounts. It will also be easier to paint the frame with it removed from the body.

[BonzoHansen]

My guess is the subframe bushings are beat, and maybe the frame mounts on the frame. The question is how much of a pita is it gonna be to get them out. putting the frame back in is not too hard.

Here is what one of my frame mounts was like:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_MOUNT1_IMG_1954.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=MOUNT1_IMG_1954.jpg)<--rusted

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_MOUNT2_IMG_2232.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=MOUNT2_IMG_2232.jpg)<--new plate welded in

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_MOUNT3_IMG_2260.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=MOUNT3_IMG_2260.jpg)<--the small hole is used to realign the frame

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/th_BUSHING02_IMG_2262.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/My77Z28/?action=view&current=BUSHING02_IMG_2262.jpg)<--painted & ready w/solid mounts



a lot of info: http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17406



I have had no issue with paint on my frame next to headers - por-15, misted with etch primer, rustoleum semi-gloss black topcoat.

[usp55]

Bonzo thanks for the pics.

Ive done alot on this car so far, most for the first time ever, and it really hasn't been that bad. Removing the frame scares the crap out of me to be honest. Seems a little bit over my head and im having trouble pulling up information on removing and reattaching the frame. Not even sure how those smaller hole are used to aline the body and frame. Also have no way to weld on a plate to fix the frame mounts on the frame if they are rusted.

do u thin can can post up some more info on the process of pulling and reinstalling that way I can decide if that's something i really what to do.

[WildBillyT]

Bonzo thanks for the pics.

Ive done alot on this car so far, most for the first time ever, and it really hasn't been that bad. Removing the frame scares the crap out of me to be honest. Seems a little bit over my head and im having trouble pulling up information on removing and reattaching the frame. Not even sure how those smaller hole are used to aline the body and frame. Also have no way to weld on a plate to fix the frame mounts on the frame if they are rusted.

do u thin can can post up some more info on the process of pulling and reinstalling that way I can decide if that's something i really what to do.

Collin-

The frame is attached by 4 bolts to the body. Spray them with PB blaster or a penetrating oil to get them nice and loose before you try to loosen them. If you don't you run a greater risk of breaking one of the cage nuts loose (what the frame bolts lock into).

Removing a subframe is no big deal. When it goes on you can stick a large screwdriver into the small holes to align it. But that probably won't be an issue until you go to put the front sheetmetal back on.

[BonzoHansen]

on & off is the easy part, lol.

lots of pb blaster - remember wd40 is not penetrating oil.

[usp55]

Collin-
Removing a subframe is no big deal. When it goes on you can stick a large screwdriver into the small holes to align it. But that probably won't be an issue until you go to put the front sheetmetal back on.

by sheetmetal you mean the body right?

on & off is the easy part, lol.

lots of pb blaster - remember wd40 is not penetrating oil.

I have plenty of PB - i bought a bunch of cans before the project began. Ill start spaying the bolts each day before this weekend.

ok so maybe again im over thinking this and its not too hard to do. Any tricks or tips for safely removing the frame. Seems like an awkward and heavy piece of metal to move and support.

[PolarBear]

If you don't you run a greater risk of breaking one of the cage nuts loose (what the frame bolts lock into).

You can see the front cage nuts from the holes next to the frame in the firewall. make sure you spray into there too.
I was able to get my front sub back on the car by myself with only a floor jack and a few jack stands. Took about 10 minutes of juggling it a little with one bolt in the back spot, then pulling the front up and trying to start a bolt by hand.
My cousin said he used to re-install the frames with the engine in them when he worked resto. He had to be very careful about scratching stuff too. :shock: I wouldnt worry about R&R

[BonzoHansen]

read that nastyZ link I posted. It's got a lot of info on this.

[JL8Jeff]

You might want to take some measurements from the firewall up to somewhere near the front of the subframe on each side to help you try to get it back into place as close as possible. You will most likely need to make adjustments when the fenders go back on. Without the engine/trans in there, it's easy to pull out the front subframe and move it around.

[79T/A]

I pulled the front subframe on my '79 during the summer. It was easy; four bolts as stated above. I made sure to support the body on jackstands and used a blocks of wood under the subframe to keep it from crashing down to the ground.

[usp55]

ok im pulling the subframe and all the bolts came out really easy except for one. The front pass side bolt. Its just spinning and i cant stop it. Tried to hammer the metal part down over the square bolt but as soon as i turn it the metal pops right up and it spins again. any ideas? I pb blasted the crap out of the bolt

[WildBillyT]

ok im pulling the subframe and all the bolts came out really easy except for one. The front pass side bolt. Its just spinning and i cant stop it. Tried to hammer the metal part down over the square bolt but as soon as i turn it the metal pops right up and it spins again. any ideas? I pb blasted the crap out of the bolt

Yep, you popped a caged nut. See if you can get vice grips on the square nut to keep it from going. But you can celebrate. The ones in the middle of the car are the nasty bitches. The one you have to deal with is easy to replace.

[PolarBear]

I was able to hold the top of the cage down with a block and a prybar and then was able to get the bolt loose. Keep spraying it with penetrating oil and try and get it out next weekend .

[BonzoHansen]

What he said....you have an impact gun or are you doing this by hand?

[usp55]

everything by hand, ill try what u guys said later tonight.

[usp55]

Well i got it out by cutting the bolt with my hack saw. So the frame is all off and only looks like one of those holes has rusted much like bonzo's from one of his post above.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4053.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4054.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4055.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4056.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4057.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4058.jpg



and with that I've hit the first thing i really cant do for the car, weld a plate for the body mount. Is there anyone in the area that is a welder by trade? id like to get that hole reinforced. Name your price.

[sweetbmxrider]

Well i got it out by cutting the bolt with my hack saw.

hmmm and my post that said "cut it" was deleted? :lol:

and with that I've hit the first thing i really cant do for the car, weld a plate for the body mount. Is there anyone in the area that is a welder by trade? id like to get that hole reinforced. Name your price.

i bet paul could do it. not sure of his schedule or turn around though if that matters. i'm sure its something he has had to do on more than one restoration.

[BonzoHansen]

That can be fixed.

Don't harm that small hole, that is for alignment.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4055.jpg

[WildBillyT]

That looks like an easy fix. Make a cardboard template out of 1/8" steel and find a welder.

[amargari]

Here's a page on how I fixed mine

http://www.apiem.com/camaro/SubframeRepair20060829.asp

I bought the Goodmark repair kit and it is not a direct fit. Just buy some steel and drill a hole in it.

[usp55]

nice site amargari

it was also recommended by member from another firebird forum to use "A very large heavy washer works really well for a patch on the frame. Grind away the rusted metal until the washer fits into the hole and but weld it in (get one with the right size inner hole). Grind the weld off and you will never be able to tell there was a patch."

seems like a good easy solution

[PolarBear]

I bought the Goodmark repair kit and it is not a direct fit. Just buy some steel and drill a hole in it.

Despite what that site says and what Goodmark says. that repair kit is for 67-69 camaro and nova. It CAN be used like the link shows, and is what I used, but was not intended for that application

[rscamaro73]

Here's a page on how I fixed mine

http://www.apiem.com/camaro/SubframeRepair20060829.asp

I bought the Goodmark repair kit and it is not a direct fit. Just buy some steel and drill a hole in it.

Wow....now i wish I had a real garage...I coulda been busting this stuff out on my bodywork....

[B4C]

Wow nice project. I dont know if you got your frame done yet but I had the same problem with my nova on the mounting holes. I bought a kit from year one to fix them and then took my frame to Nicks on 322 in williamstown and had him weld them on. When was assembling the front subframe for the nova I put the engine and trans in place first and then up the subframe back in much easire that way.
Herea a link to my photobucket mayeb some of the pics can give you some ideas.
If you need any help on the project let me know Im not far from sewell
http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r257/BrokeChevy/72%20Nova/

[usp55]

ive not worked on the car in about 3 weeks. Been going out a lot lately and work has been very busy. slow 88 is gona help me fix that small rust problem on the frame but i have to get ahold of my neighbors suburban to move the frame to his shop and its just been hard to find the time dealing with three different schedules to get it done.

once i get the frame fixed it should just be a matter of me getting the time in the garage to have some fun and start rebuilding the front end.

[WildBillyT]

While you have the subframe out make sure you run some fresh beads where the seams are. The factory welds are covered in spatter and can be pretty weak.

[WildBillyT]

Collin:

To clarify as per your PM:

The factory welds holding the frame together are not very good quality. Not only was it a fast paced environment at the time of production, welding technology was a little different back then. What you can do to beef up your subframe is run some beads at the subframe seams, where the two channels meet along the rails, around the upper control arm mounts, etc. You don't need to go crazy but it is pretty important if you plan on really driving the car hard.

[79T/A]

Good info!

[usp55]

bill, again thanks as always. Nothing but great info

[Frank drives a Firebird]

No updates lately? I've enjoyed following this project

[usp55]

yea sorry I've been really busy with work and funds had to reallocated to the camaro as i blew my trans last week.

the frame has been worked on by slow88 and he did an great job fixing that body mount and getting it back to its proper size. The frame is covered in por15 and i have the solid body mounts from here
http://www.pro-touringf-body.com/chassis_components.html

its coming along and ill get some new pics to update the thread.

[usp55]

4.30.09
small insignificant update just cause i have posted in a while. Frame has a been covered in por15, firewall has a semigloss coat of krylon, engine is painted with Pontiac light blue metallic, inner fenders are also painted semigloss.

solid bushings,chrome valve covers, water pump divider plate, motor mounts, gaskets, and some other things i cant think of at the moment all come tomorrow.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_1020.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_1021.jpg



have a question about this rusted out part of the cooling system. on the rear of the engine, passenger side. whats the best way to take care of this problem? those heater hose fits on and i can clamp it without it leaking but id like to fix it.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_1024.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

I think that is a heater hose fitting, if so it screws into the block. Hard to say how thin it is at this point, I guess if it were mine I'd start by soaking PB blasters for a few days and maybe get vise grips on it.

Once it is out you can get mice stainless steel ones. :)

Very nice progress

[usp55]

thanks bonzo, heater hose nipple its called. just ordered one in.

[mc73nova]

nice progress. a little different from the day I saw it!

[Slow 88]

Looking good!

[zuuhlsT/A]

So cool you are restoring this! You're taking your time and doing all the work properly. I always rush things and screw them up. Nice job and good luck. Can't wait to see it when it's done!:nod:

[usp55]

thanks guys, things should start to move a little faster as i finally recovered from my transmission going on the camaro.

had a quick question. I just got my solid body mounts in and i wasnt aware that i had an option as to how to install the frame back on the car. either stock height, 1/2" lower, or wedge the body (not even sure what that means). what exactly would lowering the frame do? I feel like it would just make the engine sit higher in the bay and cause clearance issues with the hood.

also any tips to getting the frame back on the car and making sure its aligned correctly?

[WildBillyT]

thanks guys, things should start to move a little faster as i finally recovered from my transmission going on the camaro.

had a quick question. I just got my solid body mounts in and i wasnt aware that i had an option as to how to install the frame back on the car. either stock height, 1/2" lower, or wedge the body (not even sure what that means). what exactly would lowering the frame do? I feel like it would just make the engine sit higher in the bay and cause clearance issues with the hood.

also any tips to getting the frame back on the car and making sure its aligned correctly?

You are correct. Everything will move up and it may create clearance issues. Stick with stock height. There are alignment holes next to the big holes on the mounts that correspond to holes on the body. You can use a screwdriver or make pins to get it square.

[usp55]

thanks for the reply, i got it on - well almost. when i took the frame off a few months ago i popped the cage bolt on the pass. side by the firewall. no amount of pb blaster or heat could break it free and i ended up cutting the bolt out. how would u guys go about fixing this problem? the "cage" itself is up and only one side is welded down. the nut is out but has halt a bolt lodged in it. no hardware store has a similar nut. something tells me a normal nylon threaded bolt just isnt gona do the job

should i try to drill out the bolt? or do u have another option. couldnt find it on fastenals website but there is a store near me maybe they can help
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products.ex?N=999600086&Nty=0

also the directions i have that came with my solid mounts does not say anything about lock washers between the long bolts head and the large washer but every article or diagram online relating to poly mounts like energy suspension products includes lock washers. i picked some up but do u need them i guess is the question.

as always i really appreciate all the help from u guys

[WildBillyT]

If you can see it (i.e. it's a front mount) then I'd cut out the cage and nut and replace it as a subassembly. That's what I did when I had the '69. I have DSE mounts and bolts on the Nova and I don't think they have lock washers.

[usp55]

ill post a pic if i make it home tonight

[BonzoHansen]

Subframe info: http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17406

[usp55]

So from what i read the cage itself is not important but really just to make things easier to remove and install. Now the nut is that big to spread the load and so couldnt i just take a large grade 8 washer and nylon threaded nut to do the same?

[BonzoHansen]

The cage holds the nut, once tight it is out of the game, so I guess you could. But if you need to remove the bolt for some reason later and can't get a wrench into there then you'll miss the cage.

[WildBillyT]

The cage holds the nut, once tight it is out of the game, so I guess you could. But if you need to remove the bolt for some reason later and can't get a wrench into there then you'll miss the cage.

Yep. As above, I'd replace the cage and nut and weld the cage down securely. If you want I guess you could weld a regular nut in there with no cage, but then you can't correct any alignment issues if the nut is off center.

[usp55]

ok im gona run over to fastenal and see if they have something like the square nut.

if not yea i guess ur right id have to remove the fender and inner fender just to get at it. My only question is why would i ever have to move it? I took measurements from the firewall to the tip of the frame before i took it off so aslong as i get it back to those numbers than then everything should line up, should being the key word. plus i dont have anyway to weld that cage down.

[BonzoHansen]

Oh, you cannot weld the nut down, no way

[usp55]

oh no no no i know yea, i was talking about the cage itself

[WildBillyT]

The cage nuts break because the bolt is frozen and the crappy spot welds break. The best fix is to replace the cage and nut, run a few beads around the cage to firmly lock it in place and then don't forget the anti-sieze on the big bolts.

[usp55]

ok frame on and straight as it was when i took it off. I took some measurments before i took it off and was able to get it back to those same so i hope its in straight and the alignment holes helped.

whats the specs for torque on those frame bolts supposed to be?

anyway just an update pic for the thread. Intake will be here mid week so i hope to have that painted and on before the weekend.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4087.jpg


Im looking for a carb rebuilt kit for a holley 3310. anyone know where to pick one up? I picked up a decent book as id like to know how to rebuild and tune a carb so it will be a nice and cheap project while i save up some coin for some other new things.

[PolarBear]

whats the specs for torque on those frame bolts supposed to be?

Im looking for a carb rebuilt kit for a holley 3310. anyone know where to pick one up? I picked up a decent book as id like to know how to rebuild and tune a carb so it will be a nice and cheap project while i save up some coin for some other new things.

Thread on NastyZ says 90-100 ft lbs

You can get the full rebuild kit from Summit or Jegs. Your book should tell you which kit you need. We just did this on Bonzo's carb, it was a nice little project and we took our time doing it

[firebirdat]

I guess a little off topic, but...
What book did you get for the carb and carb tuning?

[usp55]

i went to my local B&N and they had a few. i cant off the top of my head remember which one it is as i havent opened it yet

[WildBillyT]

This is the one I have:

http://www.amazon.com/Holley-Carburetors-Manifolds-Injection-HP1052/dp/1557880522/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242847309&sr=8-16

It is pretty good.

[BonzoHansen]

I have this one and it got me through 'back in the day'. Holley has good tech support as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Holly-Carburetor-Handbook-4150-Hp473/dp/0895860473/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Now I use the BTK knowledge base (aka his brain)

[sweetbmxrider]

do they have a solution you can let the carb sit in to dissolve any carbon and such? i did that on my buddies barracuda, helped alot. if the carb is in real good shape, i wouldn't bother. its just easy to take it apart now, clean it, and rebuild it.

[WildBillyT]

do they have a solution you can let the carb sit in to dissolve any carbon and such? i did that on my buddies barracuda, helped alot. if the carb is in real good shape, i wouldn't bother. its just easy to take it apart now, clean it, and rebuild it.

Berryman's Chem Dip

[usp55]

little update of the todays work. got the front clip on and it lined up pretty good, still have to adjust the driver side fender alittle but not bad. Waiting for my chrome alternator to come Tuesday and my control arms are getting new hardware put on so ill get them by the end of the week.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4139.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4140.jpg

[B4C]

Nice work just dont get to carried away with the chrome

[usp55]

Nice work just dont get to carried away with the chrome

yea, that's it besides the rear bumper and some trim (maybe rims, but I think i just want a set or rally 2's on there). Everything else in the engine is satin black, no hose covers or anything else shiny. the water neck might come off only because it points further back than my other one and the upper heater hose doesn't fit right.

[Slow 88]

Looking good Collin!

[BonzoHansen]

yea, that's it besides the rear bumper and some trim (maybe rims, but I think i just want a set or rally 2's on there). Everything else in the engine is satin black, no hose covers or anything else shiny. the water neck might come off only because it points further back than my other one and the upper heater hose doesn't fit right.

Rally 2s FTW

[Jam]

good luck with the build.. great buy.

[B4C]

yea, that's it besides the rear bumper and some trim (maybe rims, but I think i just want a set or rally 2's on there). Everything else in the engine is satin black, no hose covers or anything else shiny. the water neck might come off only because it points further back than my other one and the upper heater hose doesn't fit right.

I meant in the enginebay, Ive seen lots of nice cars that I like but then get around to under hood and everything is chrome water pump, alt, valve covers, booster and master cyl, sometimes people get carried away with that stuff and ruine the look of the car plus it holds in heat. I try to avoid it the only chrome in my 400 is the t-stat housing

[usp55]

sorry for the long time between updates.

Ive made a lot of good progress this weekend and things are starting to come together. Picked up my new clutch and got the installed. Tran is back in the car and drive shaft is back on. Headers also came in and got them on as well.
Picked up my control arms from the shop, all new hardware, and i put them on today. Started to work on getting fuel lines hooked back up in between beers too.

oh i got some new shocks but one of them didn't have any hardware in the box so i have to call rockauto to see whats the deal.

i think thats about it. more updates hopefully next week end as im gona order my rotors/calipers/etc tomorrow.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4219.jpg

[btownws6]

looks good

[ib4200]

any updates? car is looking great

[usp55]

Thanks, Yea i have made some small progress on the car. Shocks and springs went back in and spindles are on. Steering hooked back up - looking for those little foam or rubber things that fit between the balljoints/idler arm of the steering. If I remember correctly that are to keep moisture out?

New fuel line is in but i might redo it. It's about 2" away from the header at one point and I want to see if i can get it alittle bit further away.

Picked up a new 3 row aluminum radiator and electric cooling fan. That will come tuesday and my next thing to do is the brakes/bearings/rotors.

Things have been alittle slow and for the first time not because of cash. Job has been alittle demanding and I met my future ex wife so I havent had much time.

[BonzoHansen]

LOL future ex wife.

Your new suspension parts did not come with dust boots?

[usp55]

LOL future ex wife.

Your new suspension parts did not come with dust boots?


dust boot on the ball joints? yea they're there.

[BonzoHansen]

then what are you looking for?

[usp55]

on the steering rack, my uncle was giving the car a once over and mentioned that there is supposed to be these little foam disks around the ball joints in the steering system. Now i remember them when i was taking the car apart but the were so beat up and falling apart they fell out when poping those joints.

[BonzoHansen]

You're car does not have a steering rack ;) oh, you mean the center link where it bolts to the pitman arm and idler arm. Did you replace the center link? I'd have guessed the seal for the pitman arm would have came with it. I'd have to look, I thought the idler arm had a boot too, but maybe the older ones differ. I know there are some minor variations of front end parts over the years.

Anyhoo, check your local parts store they may have a line on what you want. I know they have replacement boots in the catalogs.

[usp55]

You're car does not have a steering rack ;) oh, you mean the center link where it bolts to the pitman arm and idler arm. Did you replace the center link? I'd have guessed the seal for the pitman arm would have came with it. I'd have to look, I thought the idler arm had a boot too, but maybe the older ones differ. I know there are some minor variations of front end parts over the years.

Anyhoo, check your local parts store they may have a line on what you want. I know they have replacement boots in the catalogs.


oh haha, come on man by now u have to realize im a car idiot at this point.

no i didn't replace anything with the steering, yet. Everything seemed tight and in good shape for now so i left it alone. Will more than likely replace down the road.

[BonzoHansen]

Ok, for some reason I can't find a center link on rock auto for your car, but i found this pic for my car.

spicer: 2 boots
http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=1005326&imageurl=http%3A//info.rockauto.com/Spicer/4401023B-1.jpg.

moog: boot & washer
http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=201587&imageurl=http%3A//info.rockauto.com/Moog/DS829_TOP.jpg

Those are the seals you want. I got the moog and the boot is for the idler arm-to-CL and the felt washer is for pitman-to-cl.

Poke around, you might need to go to a real parts store for assistance. Maybe take that pic with you.

Center links and idler arms are big wear items in these cars, in my experience far more than tie rods or even ball joints. Pitman is non-wear.

[usp55]

good stuff thanks for the info as always, i just added that to my todo list and ill prob make my way down to napa and talk to them.



"watch the leather maaannn"
love that movie

[PolarBear]

With my 3rd gen front end parts I too got the little foa doughnuts to put in there. All they do is hold a little more grease in place. I used the rubber boots in there instead but after a few weeks I noticed they had ripped already.

[usp55]

Sep 7th update:

Got a new three row aluminum radiator installed and new overflow tank. Also now have an electric cooling fan. Picked up a new engine as well from camaro2you, thanks again. 1970 block with number 11 heads. More power than my 73. I plan on getting the car running with the 73 engine first and haven't decided what I want to do with the side engine as of yet.

Also got he fenders and inner fenders on and cleaned up. New coat of semi gloss and undercoat.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4302.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4296.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_4301.jpg

[PolarBear]

FYI you should really have that overflow hose to the bottom of the tank so it can be reclaimed into the system, otherwise it is really just a surge tank. If you have it at the bottom it will function more like a factory system.

Looking good!

[camaro2you]

Best of luck with it! Let me know when you want to drop that plate off.

[BonzoHansen]

Nice! Look at that shiny radiator!

[Tru2Chevy]

Looks like it's coming together very nicely!

- Justin

[usp55]

Thanks guys


FYI you should really have that overflow hose to the bottom of the tank so it can be reclaimed into the system, otherwise it is really just a surge tank. If you have it at the bottom it will function more like a factory system.

Looking good!

At the bottle there is a fitting but its got a ball valve on it. I thought there was a tube inside the tank that would draw coolant out caused by the coolant in the radiator cooling off creating a vacuum in the system.

[PolarBear]

At the bottle there is a fitting but its got a ball valve on it. I thought there was a tube inside the tank that would draw coolant out caused by the coolant in the radiator cooling off creating a vacuum in the system.

I dont think so, the ball valve at the bottom is just to be able to close the thing and remove without having to drip anywhere.
I could be wrong depending on the manufacturer but most of them just have the ball valve and a barb on them. Plus if you have the ball closed then the tank could build pressure and blow the hose off the barb and if you leave the ball open.... same as nothing.

[usp55]

well ill get a longer hose and put it to the bottom and make sure the ball is open then :)

[Tru2Chevy]

well ill get a longer hose and put it to the bottom and make sure the ball is open then :)

Then run another hose from the top pointed down towards the ground, that way if you ever do manage to fill the overflow tank, your engine won't get a direct spray of hot coolant on it, only the ground will.

- Justin

[PolarBear]

Then run another hose from the top pointed down towards the ground, that way if you ever do manage to fill the overflow tank, your engine won't get a direct spray of hot coolant on it, only the ground will.

- Justin

Ya, good point. I did that on my car too, mostly so if that overflowed it wouldnt get on the shiny tank, :lol:

[ib4200]

done yet?:lol:

[usp55]

lol almost. they only thing i have to figure out so i can start it up again is the hei. engine originally had old style points on it. the new engine i picked up has an hei. Now there is a connection coming from the base that im pretty sure is supposed to connect to the cap but it wont fit.

also have to run power to the unit itself. not quite sure yet how to do that but someone on another board said to run 10g wire to the fusebox but i dont see anyplace to connect the wire to the hei itself. i migh just put the points system back on but i hate the coil on the firewall. i want to start it up this week. get a video as soon as i do.

[camaro2you]

For the cap you have a power and tach wire that needs to be connected, I honestly forget what the wire on the dizzy itself is for hopefully someone else will chime in.

[PolarBear]

lol almost. they only thing i have to figure out so i can start it up again is the hei. engine originally had old style points on it. the new engine i picked up has an hei. Now there is a connection coming from the base that im pretty sure is supposed to connect to the cap but it wont fit.

also have to run power to the unit itself. not quite sure yet how to do that but someone on another board said to run 10g wire to the fusebox but i dont see anyplace to connect the wire to the hei itself. i migh just put the points system back on but i hate the coil on the firewall. i want to start it up this week. get a video as soon as i do.

HEI is as simple as hooking up the hot wire to a switched ignition source and then you can hook up the tach (seperate ground? I dont remember). There is one other little point to mention. With my car, 73 camaro, it was a points car too. The previous owner put in HEI and it mostly worked fine to start the car, occasionally it would take a little time to crank. I wound up swapping the intake a a few other things and afterwards the car would crank but no spark. I later realized the hot wire was switched ignition and is not hot during crank. I had to run a wire to the second post on the starter (basically, I have a FORD style relay and has the second post) so the coil has power while cranking. I think Scott put a relay and fuse in that circuit though to protect the coil and wiring. Once I figured that out it starts almost immediately, before I would have to let go of the key and hope the engine was still spinning fast enough to get the coil power to get it fired up.

**EDIT*** I THINK the connection you are referring to is the pickup? Post a picture of what you are talking about

[usp55]

**EDIT*** I THINK the connection you are referring to is the pickup? Post a picture of what you are talking about


will do - ill be home tonight and ill post them around 6ish

tonight im also going to pick up a thermostat/switch for the fan, are the radiator probe ones ok and reliable?

[BonzoHansen]

IMO for a single switch setup it's hard to beat the oe type that screws into the heads or t-stat housing.

[usp55]

Prob right but the oe stype screw ins have a much higher price. $70-$100. can pick up a probe style for $30ish. Gona search some more but cost might play a factor here. Aslong as its reliable and does the same job then im ok with that.

[PolarBear]

Prob right but the oe stype screw ins have a much higher price. $70-$100. can pick up a probe style for $30ish. Gona search some more but cost might play a factor here. Aslong as its reliable and does the same job then im ok with that.

What are you looking at? Local places or online?

[usp55]

Both, I try to buy most things online just because things are usually cheaper. if were are talking within 10bucks thatn the convience of havng it that day is better than waiting for the mail to deliver it so ill pick something up local in that case.

[BonzoHansen]

Prob right but the oe stype screw ins have a much higher price. $70-$100. can pick up a probe style for $30ish. Gona search some more but cost might play a factor here. Aslong as its reliable and does the same job then im ok with that.

Summit has them for ~$40 all the time

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HYP-4026/

$38.95


Edit:
also, wiring the HEI is easy. You can use your current coil leads to power a relay and then run full voltage to the HEI. That is how we did Bear's 73, although his did not have the ballast resistor wire anymore.

[usp55]

OK so this is the hei - far less confusing than i once though but still questions
the plug from the bottom does fit into the cap - didn't notice there are two spots there. so It looks like all i have to do it have a line from the bat and a line from the tack.

now on the old points one i had two lines going to the coil on my firewall, is that my power and tack lines? obviously I need to 10g wire now for the hei but that would make locating the tack wire so much easier. Now do i just run a wire with a fusible link in it to the hei right off that battery (+)? there is a nice little connection built right into my new +power cable going from the bat to the starter. If not where should the power come from then.

also do u thing one of those two line that went to my coil is from the tack? couldn't I just hook that up? Excuse my ignorance if Im over simplifying this

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/captop.jpg

[PolarBear]

Now do i just run a wire with a fusible link in it to the hei right off that battery (+)? there is a nice little connection built right into my new +power cable going from the bat to the starter. If not where should the power come from then.

HEI is as simple as hooking up the hot wire to a switched ignition source and then you can hook up the tach

Reading FTW :moon:
if you hook it to the battery it will be on all the time. What you can do is to put a relay inline from the battery and run the trigger to the relay to a switched ignition source.

I was trying to be sarcastic, sorry if you didnt take it that way. I had a really rough day at work

[usp55]

yeah but its over rated, thanks though

[PolarBear]

Scott said the same thing in post 151 too

[BonzoHansen]

Oh bear, lol.

Mine gets straight battery voltage via a relay. I use the IGN circuit to power a number of relays and such. I just used a simple fuse, not a link.

[usp55]

ok its all hooked up, well just about. somehow my test light crapped out so i went out to get a new one , but anyway the only three 10g wires coming from the firewall. 2 were hot all the time and the purple would give me anything, maybe a bum fuse. Either way ill find something to hook it to. Maybe have to do what you did bonzo

Thanks polar/bonzo. I think about this car all day at work and must have read the posts about the hei atleast 10 times but never really understood it. Makes complete sense now.

Ordered a pypes 2.5" violator system today so that should make my neighbors happy. :)


quick question: rotors came in yesterday. the bearing I got have the bearing itself and a metal ring around them. Inside the rotor it looks like the same exact outer ring is already installed. normal right?, so i discard the one with the bearing and just lube it all up properly and install the bearings. sorry if thats a stupid one.

[PolarBear]

ok its all hooked up, well just about. somehow my test light crapped out so i went out to get a new one , but anyway the only three 10g wires coming from the firewall. 2 were hot all the time and the purple would give me anything, maybe a bum fuse. Either way ill find something to hook it to. Maybe have to do what you did bonzo


Purple should be the starter wire? That is the only one I can think of that is a heavy gauge and purple..... :?: I dont think you need 10 gauge either, the old points stuff should work, or you could use the old wire to the points and use that to trigger a relay and use the hot wire off the horn relay. He used the hot from the horn relay

[camaro2you]

ok its all hooked up, well just about. somehow my test light crapped out so i went out to get a new one , but anyway the only three 10g wires coming from the firewall. 2 were hot all the time and the purple would give me anything, maybe a bum fuse. Either way ill find something to hook it to. Maybe have to do what you did bonzo

Thanks polar/bonzo. I think about this car all day at work and must have read the posts about the hei atleast 10 times but never really understood it. Makes complete sense now.

Ordered a pypes 2.5" violator system today so that should make my neighbors happy. :)


quick question: rotors came in yesterday. the bearing I got have the bearing itself and a metal ring around them. Inside the rotor it looks like the same exact outer ring is already installed. normal right?, so i discard the one with the bearing and just lube it all up properly and install the bearings. sorry if thats a stupid one.


What do you mean by metal ring?

[usp55]

Purple should be the starter wire? That is the only one I can think of that is a heavy gauge and purple..... :?: I dont think you need 10 gauge either, the old points stuff should work, or you could use the old wire to the points and use that to trigger a relay and use the hot wire off the horn relay. He used the hot from the horn relay

yes, starter purple wire. red was hot all the time and a black wire with a red line was also hot all the time. I read the hei would require more power and to not reuse the wires from the points syatem for the power. hmm. also says to just wire it right to the fuse box.

What do you mean by metal ring?

metal ring, deep as the bearing ans tapered. Bearing sits right in it.here (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/parts/partsProduct.jsp?displayName=Wheel+Bearing+-+Front&itemId=168-0&navValue=11200168&parentId=12-0&productId=693101&fromString=search&itemIdentifier=693101_82844_4988_&filterByKeyWord=bearing&categoryNValue=11299999&isSearchByPartNumber=false&categoryDisplayName=Drivetrain&store=3287&skuDescription=Timken/WheelBearing-Front&fromWhere=&searchText=bearing&_requestid=2179891)

[Featherburner]

metal ring, deep as the bearing ans tapered. Bearing sits right in it.it's called the race.

[BonzoHansen]

You can't power the HEI with the same lead the points distributor used because there should be a ballast resistor that steps down the voltage.

A relay setup is best bet. Pull power off horn relay as mentioned. Trigger it with the factory IGN lead - it might not be hot in start position, test it. But there should be another lead top the coil that is hot only at start.

Here, ignore the details on this pic, just look at the circuits.

87: to the HEI - 12g is more than sufficient. W/O looking I'd bet 14 is ok.
30: with a 10 amp blade fuse to the horn relay/distribution point. Again 12g/same as 87
85: ground - small is fine, 18g or whatever
86: Hot@run (IGN-pink?) and hot@start (not sure color)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/Cars/relay01v2b.jpg

[usp55]

Another long wait between posts because not much has changed. New brakes and stuff are on. Ran the new hard lines also. Some other little odd and ends were done too.

Just two questions this time. Does the prop valve rust out if if its just been sitting dry? Do I need a new one? And I have a new master cylinder coming but don't believe the rod is on it, how do I get the old rod assembly off the old one?

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/2009-11-25183818.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

prop valve s/b fine.

MC rod? S/B in the booster or through the f/w attached to the pedal, I believe

http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=309085&imageurl=http%3A//info.rockauto.com/Raybestos/MC36312-7.jpg

[usp55]

Rod thaT comes out the back and goes through firewall

[BonzoHansen]

It does not attach to the MC. See the pic.

[usp55]

This

How to remove, and is it tranferable to the new one
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/2009-11-25222029.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

I think it should just come off, but let me check some manuals. I always has PB cars.

[usp55]

Just poped it off, thanks. Wasn't sure if there was alittle clip or something. Overthinking it again

[BonzoHansen]

Ok, the GM book does not mention it in the removal steps, but in the installation steps it basically says push it on. And look at this pic in the Haynes manual. No fasteners.

I think it should pull off. I'd lightly pry it w/a screwdriver.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/Cars/2ndGenManualMC.jpg

edit: lol, I did not refresh the thread. :)

[usp55]

Right on the money. Bent it alittle but it finally came off.

[WildBillyT]

Another long wait between posts because not much has changed. New brakes and stuff are on. Ran the new hard lines also. Some other little odd and ends were done too.

Just two questions this time. Does the prop valve rust out if if its just been sitting dry? Do I need a new one? And I have a new master cylinder coming but don't believe the rod is on it, how do I get the old rod assembly off the old one?

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/2009-11-25183818.jpg

Couple things.

1.) That brake hose looks too tight. What happens when you turn your wheel all the way to the left?

2.) Your prop valve shouldn't get rusty. I believe it's brass.

3.) Be careful to attach the master cyl pushrod to the right hole on the pedal. There may be two- one for power and one for manual. They are set up this way because manual brakes need more leverage from a different pivot point.

[BonzoHansen]

Does look tight but that is full droop. But I would reinspect after everything is together

Good point on the pedal attachment.

[usp55]

I think the picure is a bad angle and it looks tight but even when the wheel is tured all the way either way its got enough. So no worries esp when its off the jacks but il check when i drop it.

I took a pic of the MC rod though the firewall and there is really only one place for it to go and the car is factory manual brakes. I bagged every nut a bolt but for some reason i cant find the fastener for the mc rod to the bp.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/2009-12-02201416.jpg


New MC and new lines are ran so all i have to do is blead the breaks. Any tips or tricks? And dot3?

[sweetbmxrider]

start from the furthest from the master and work closer (r/r, l/r, r/f, l/f)
pump it a few times then hold, crack bleeder, watch air bubble out, close bleeder, let off pedal. dot 3 should be fine.

you can crack the bleeders and let them self bleed for a little too, just open a slight turn and let sit for half an hour.

[BonzoHansen]

Yeah, I like to gravity bleed too. When I 1st did the Z (all parts new) the rears would not gravity bleed. I had to use a mitivac to get the flow going.

Make sure you bench bleed the MC

[PolarBear]

I took a pic of the MC rod though the firewall and there is really only one place for it to go and the car is factory manual brakes. I bagged every nut a bolt but for some reason i cant find the fastener for the mc rod to the bp.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/2009-12-02201416.jpg

Should be a clip with a large hole and a slightly smaller hole touching the large hole if it is the same as a 3rd gen.

[B4C]

Yeah why did you take that clip out!?! Its just like polar bear said, but its a biotch to get back in properly.

[usp55]

Yeah why did you take that clip out!?! Its just like polar bear said, but its a biotch to get back in properly.

Well I had to take it off to put the rod on the new MC. I got a new one.

Got a nice package in the mail today from summit. 314 shipped! 2.5'' Pypes violator system.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/2009-12-06004935.jpg

System looks nice and came will all hardware but didn't realize it didn't come with the collectors to hook it to headers. Not a big deal. Hope it sounds nice.

Edit: I just rememberd the headers came with the collectors

[usp55]

well today was nothing but bad news and problems

went to mess around with the exhaust and right away i noticed a big problem. the driver side header is alittle off. What i mean is the collector at the end of the four individual tubes is actually at an angle going up towards the floor pan. making it impossible to put the pipe on as it hits the trans cross member. the header clears the floor but at the angle it is off. The other side clears perfect.

figure i have to take the system to get on at a shop so they can bent that pipe alittle to make it clear. Do see how it would be possible to change the header itself.


So I figured id bleed the brakes as i needed to do that anyway. When I did both the front new calipers were leaking at the banjo bolt. Both the banjo bolts and copper o-rings are brand new. :shrug:

[B4C]

^^Just get a small piece of pipe bent and added to the beginning on the exhaust system should give you the drop you need to clear.
Well I had to take it off to put the rod on the new MC. I got a new one.

No you didnt just unbolt the mc and pull.

[usp55]

It has been too long - I am finally going to have some free time coming up and plan on getting some more work done on the car. just a little teaser pic of the wheels I picked up.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/mail.jpg

[Raist103]

looking good

[usp55]

Well things are moving along now - took aout the rear and gas tank yesterday and got them cleaned up. Also got a nice quote for all the metal work needed to be done, frame rails, door skin and floor. So as soon as i come up with some more cash the car will be on a trailer and off to the shop.

just though id stop in with a quick update.

[sweetbmxrider]

rear looks great

[usp55]

QUICK QUESTION - removal of the parking brake all together. its these little things that are starting to get to me. im sure its easy and even hate asking. want to replace those cables as they are so cheap and its all right the ready to come off.

I can see the little butterfly clip on the inside of the frame, removed those. Now how exactly does the cable all come out. is it one peice?

[WildBillyT]

QUICK QUESTION - removal of the parking brake all together. its these little things that are starting to get to me. im sure its easy and even hate asking. want to replace those cables as they are so cheap and its all right the ready to come off.

I can see the little butterfly clip on the inside of the frame, removed those. Now how exactly does the cable all come out. is it one peice?

From the rear axle? It should pull out, but there is a "clip" on the inside under the drums with a bunch of different "fingers" spread out, probably preventing you from doing so. My trick is to use a small hose clamp to pull them together, then pull the clip partway through, remove the hose clamp, and pull the cable all the way out.

[usp55]

yeah i got that off and the rear is completly out of the car ( 2 posts up all por15'd) now i just have the lines themselves id like to replace but cant for the life of me see how it removes from the frame itself

Edit:
I'm an idiot, I knew id figure the parking brake cable out....some daylight helped ;)

Todays update:
I know this is taking forever but I'm getting there. Everything is removed from the front subframe back. No brake line, fuel lines, etc. Had to cut every bolt but 3 - not fun. Tomorrow ill be going at it with a wirewheel and hopefully my por15 comes in. Ordered leaf springs, install kit, and shocks today. Hope to get it all back in before next weekend.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/f5596d8d.jpg

[usp55]

Slow and stready

got some new parts - new leaf springs, shoks, rear instal kit. Had to put the rear back in as she going for a little trip very soon so i needed it rolling again More updates coming.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/7b6d56b2.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/b8d583be.jpg

Also i took soem time to clean up the gas tank. I HATE RUBBERIZED UNDERCOATING. i had to resort to kerosene. worked the best and i tried just about everything. Im still going to paint the tank but atleaat it wont have that textured look. also cleaned and painted the straps which are in good condition. I was going to scrap the entire bottom on the car too but after dealing with just the tank im letting someone else take care of that while its away getting some metal work done.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/b2888c1c.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

What's with the load carrying shocks?

[usp55]

Just is what it is, good eye. Local parts store had them instock for some reason, for cheap. cant hurt anything. Now I can tow my Boston Whaler around town lol

[WildBillyT]

What's with the load carrying shocks?

Yeah, I noticed that too. Not really necessary in this case.

[BonzoHansen]

might make the rear too stiff. He'll find out. :) I don't see a rear sway bar, which might be good in this case.

where did you get the leafs?

[usp55]

Good day for the firebird.
*Picked up trans am fenders and shaker hood with the shaker (need aircleaner assembly)
*fedex dropped of door skin and new frame rail

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/5d5574a0.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

i love getting boxes!

[usp55]

Just keeping the thread up to date. New door skin, floors fixed, frame rail replaced and today finished the back two thirds of the underside. Getting resdy to pull the front subfrane and finish the underside.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/dd45a8d9.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/7cf21985.jpg

[usp55]

just a small update:
-Scrubbed, wire wheeled and decreased past few days and just put down some por15.
-new heater core and blower fan on the way
-new gas tank hardware/ anti squeak pads on the way to get that back on.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_20100911_161954.jpg

after paint ill be laying down a boatload of sound deadening material to cover everything

[BonzoHansen]

you are making great progress.

[usp55]

Been stripping the body for the past month little by little. Just finishing up the hood now. Pulled the rear window and gutted the doors tonight. Not much of an update but enjoy.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_20110119_212058.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z267/usp55/IMG_20110119_212326.jpg

[mc73nova]

Glad to see you making progress on the car. Its come a long way since I saw it last!