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MonmouthCtyAntz
04-27-2009, 12:58 PM
die down w/ the 5th gen. here. Kinda like the LT1 did. As soon as some of the guys saw the performance differance they unloaded the LT's for the LS.

Tsar
04-27-2009, 01:01 PM
die down w/ the 5th gen. here. Kinda like the LT1 did. As soon as some of the guys saw the performance differance they unloaded the LT's for the LS.

There are only a handful (ok maybe a bit more) of people on this website that can swing a new car payment :lol: Some just don't like it, and some don't need it. So no worries.

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-27-2009, 01:04 PM
Not worried was just curious what you guys thought. I like the car and could afford the payment but dont want them...Plus id end up voiding the warranty w/ mods lol.

BonzoHansen
04-27-2009, 01:06 PM
New almost always trumps old. It shouldn't be all about the engine anyway. There are always better engines.

7pointoh
04-27-2009, 01:18 PM
I jumped on that band wagon two years ago. But in all honesty, it's pretty much the same engine. Other than bigger displacement the other differences aren't that big. Lingenfelter makes a module now so you don't have to tear the block down and put in a 24xx reluctor wheel to retro fit it in the late 4th Gens.

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Yea I guess it still is a LS based engine.

NJ346
04-27-2009, 01:40 PM
die down w/ the 5th gen. here. Kinda like the LT1 did. As soon as some of the guys saw the performance differance they unloaded the LT's for the LS.

There were quite a few LT1's at the meet on Saturday...If that's any indication, I think the LS1's are here to stay. Also the LS1 aftermarket>LT1 aftermarket.

LTb1ow
04-27-2009, 01:41 PM
I don't agree. You can use all GenI bottom end stuff on the LT1s, can't say that about the LS1s....

Its also much easier to run a GenI intake on an LT1 too.

7pointoh
04-27-2009, 01:43 PM
But they make LSX retro fit kits. Not much of putting a gen I or II into an LSX based vehicle. Unless your Doug.

LTb1ow
04-27-2009, 01:44 PM
Retro kits as in putting LS1s into LT1 cars?

Thats just cause people don't like driving around in sebrings...

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-27-2009, 01:48 PM
Retro kits as in putting LS1s into LT1 cars?

Thats just cause people don't like driving around in sebrings...

lol....LT1 aftermarket is pretty much dead, and has been for awhile...You can kinda tell when you cant find anyone in the area that actually tunes them.

WildBillyT
04-27-2009, 01:48 PM
They will phase out some of the less popular LS1 parts for stuff for the latest and greatest platforms. Yes, some parts will be backwards compatible but not all of them will be.

7pointoh
04-27-2009, 01:50 PM
Sebring LT1 is the new hawtness.

But the the newer engines will be retro fitted into an older platform. But you don't see that much (well at least I don') of an older engine being put in a new car.

LTb1ow
04-27-2009, 01:57 PM
lol....LT1 aftermarket is pretty much dead, and has been for awhile...You can kinda tell when you cant find anyone in the area that actually tunes them.

That is just tuners being lazy and or trying to stay with the current demand.

The aftermarket for the LT1 is pretty good IMO considering it came out in 93 and only lasted 4 years.

Name it and its out there.

WildBillyT
04-27-2009, 02:05 PM
That is just tuners being lazy and or trying to stay with the current demand.

The aftermarket for the LT1 is pretty good IMO considering it came out in 93 and only lasted 4 years.

Name it and its out there.

LT1 came out in 1992. Turn in your fanboii card at the door.

LTb1ow
04-27-2009, 02:09 PM
LT1 came out in 1992. Turn in your fanboii card at the door.

LOL, will do. Does this mean I can be whatever fanboii I want now??? :lol:

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-27-2009, 02:09 PM
LT1 came out in 1992. Turn in your fanboii card at the door.

Yea I think he meant in the fbody

LTb1ow
04-27-2009, 02:32 PM
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/code3GT_bucket/lswhat.gif?t=1240860724

Iroc-z86
04-27-2009, 02:40 PM
well if my tpi conversion doesnt run good and i cant fix it and the car runs like it did last year then its being "taken-care-of" and im buying an ls1.

sweetbmxrider
04-27-2009, 03:45 PM
yeah i was about to say if you want something for an lt1, it is there. tuners are more popular for ls1's since obd-II is much easier and more affordable to work with. its the 3rd gens that are hurting.

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-27-2009, 06:07 PM
yeah i was about to say if you want something for an lt1, it is there. tuners are more popular for ls1's since obd-II is much easier and more affordable to work with. its the 3rd gens that are hurting.

some 95's,96 and 97 LT1's are also OBDII and I think theres one guy in PA that does them.

NJ346
04-27-2009, 06:13 PM
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/code3GT_bucket/lswhat.gif?t=1240860724

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s36/smilies-31315.png

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-27-2009, 07:00 PM
http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s36/smilies-31315.png

Lol yea lets not go into this one again....Owned 2 LT1's loved them in there time.....but.....

NastyEllEssWon
04-27-2009, 09:48 PM
the ls1 has gained just as much popularity as the gen 1 small blocks. even classic car tuners are utilizing the early ls1 blocks because as the newer stuff comes out our motors become easily affordable. theyre also very easy to work on and get great gas mileage even when modded.



no the ls1 is here to stay. gen 1's and 2's are working their way out the door. we just need the old stubborn stuck in their ways guys to die in the next 10 years and itll be at the bottom of the river with the lt1. the only difference is the lt1 is doing what it was meant to do :lol:

sweetbmxrider
04-27-2009, 11:46 PM
some 95's,96 and 97 LT1's are also OBDII and I think theres one guy in PA that does them.

yeah i know that but finding someone to tune them is hard and finding someone good is even harder.

i just can't wait till my boat anchor is all nasty and able to do high 12's like a stock almighty :mrgreen:

Mike
04-27-2009, 11:50 PM
That is just tuners being lazy and or trying to stay with the current demand.

The aftermarket for the LT1 is pretty good IMO considering it came out in 93 and only lasted 4 years.

Name it and its out there.

LT1 came out in 1992. Turn in your fanboii card at the door.

not only did it start in 92........

but

93
94
95
96
97

would be 5 years anyway, so he is wrong no matter how you look at that statement :shock:

sweetbmxrider
04-27-2009, 11:58 PM
those early bastards of an lt1 car don't count. :lol:

NastyEllEssWon
04-28-2009, 12:06 AM
yeah i know that but finding someone to tune them is hard and finding someone good is even harder.

i just can't wait till my boat anchor is all nasty and able to do high 12's like a stock almighty :mrgreen:






hehe high 12's :wink: stock :wink:

Mike
04-28-2009, 12:21 AM
not all of them, so dont claim it

WildBillyT
04-28-2009, 08:10 AM
the ls1 has gained just as much popularity as the gen 1 small blocks. even classic car tuners are utilizing the early ls1 blocks because as the newer stuff comes out our motors become easily affordable. theyre also very easy to work on and get great gas mileage even when modded.



no the ls1 is here to stay. gen 1's and 2's are working their way out the door. we just need the old stubborn stuck in their ways guys to die in the next 10 years and itll be at the bottom of the river with the lt1. the only difference is the lt1 is doing what it was meant to do :lol:

I don't even know where to start telling you how wrong you are. Just because magazines and message boards are showing a lot of gen III transplant stuff that doesn't mean it is anywhere close to pushing out the gen I. The gen III is certainly popular but it's nowhere near as popular as the gen I. The I had such a long production run and there are so many millions of them out there I don't even think the gen III has anything close to a legitimate run at the #1 title. Too few of them have been produced so far.

I think one of the driving factors pushing the Gen I out the door is not anything attractive about the Gen II or Gen III, it's the PITA that is ZDDP.

BonzoHansen
04-28-2009, 08:46 AM
True, step away from the net, LS1tech and magazines and walk outside into the real world. Walk around the car shows and cruise nights. Not that many transplants in real life. The death of the SBC and BBC is greatly exaggerated.

BTW, the LS1 has been out of production for what, 6 years?

The gen III/IV architecture is very nice, it’s a great engine. But remember there are many nice BBC cars will still stomp most LS based cars. Along with a lot of other cars & engines. There are always faster cars out there. Broaden your horizons, don’t be a single model snob.

sweetbmxrider
04-28-2009, 09:05 AM
very true guys, you only see what you want to see.

Pampered-Z
04-28-2009, 09:37 AM
The LS1 will probably end up the same fate as all past engines when GM does some new design and uses a new designation code. Then everyone with those engines will look down on the LS1 like the LS1 guys try to do to the LT1w. Which I always found odd, The TPI cars never bashed the carbed guys, or the LT1 guys never bashed the PTI guys. Guess the LS1 are a different breed?

Few years back there was some secret ceramic / polymer engine that was 1/3 the weight of metal and because the material it required no internal oiling system. With ultra light weight parts and no heat issues the engine had outstanding performance potential. I'm amazed it hasn't made it into the public yet, but gas prices probably are keeping electric cars a more popular option for selling new cars.

As far as old school going away, don't think so. Way too many people still love a good old 350 engine, go to any drag strip or cruise night and count the carb'd SB and BB cars and compare them to the LT or LS cars. Other then these message boards the old school still rules! Even on here, look at the fastest cars, JS, Bad434 and what are their setups?

01blackz28
04-28-2009, 04:09 PM
not at all its still an lsx based engine

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-28-2009, 07:32 PM
those early bastards of an lt1 car don't count. :lol:

93's are supposedly one of the fastest years...think it has something to do w/ the different gear syncros for 93.

LTb1ow
04-28-2009, 07:35 PM
Anything thats not a 95 LT1 suck.

BigAls87Z28
04-28-2009, 07:37 PM
The LS1 will probably end up the same fate as all past engines when GM does some new design and uses a new designation code. Then everyone with those engines will look down on the LS1 like the LS1 guys try to do to the LT1w. Which I always found odd, The TPI cars never bashed the carbed guys, or the LT1 guys never bashed the PTI guys. Guess the LS1 are a different breed?

uh, what?
While I never bashed the carb guys, LT1 and LS1 guys look down on the TPI guys big time.
I dont think that people will look down on the 4th gens, even if the car will be marginally faster. Im sure there will be some people, but I think that the fifth gen could unite the gens!!
Combo of old and new. Could be nice.

Nothing will ever beat the Gen 1 small block.
LS1 stuff affordable? Anyone know where I can get a set of new heads for 400 bucks and make a bunch of power for an LS1

LTb1ow
04-28-2009, 07:38 PM
Eh, Al your thinking of us new kids with LT1s/LS1s.

NJ346
04-28-2009, 07:41 PM
LS1 stuff affordable? Anyone know where I can get a set of new heads for 400 bucks and make a bunch of power for an LS1

You can get a set of LS6 243 heads "new" for that price.(Just pulled off of a low mileage car). They are a descent amount better than the 806, 853, and 241's that all 4th gens came with.

BigAls87Z28
04-28-2009, 07:48 PM
Eh, Al your thinking of us new kids with LT1s/LS1s.

eh..no.
Since the first day I went on line, went to a car meet, went anywhere with my 87, I got the ol look down the nose.
Was it cause I drove a third gen? Was it cause it was a 305?
TPI guys get more respect over LG4/L69/L03 cars. The general distaste for third gens is upsetting.

BigAls87Z28
04-28-2009, 08:04 PM
You can get a set of LS6 243 heads "new" for that price.(Just pulled off of a low mileage car). They are a descent amount better than the 806, 853, and 241's that all 4th gens came with.

First off, its used. Low milage is still not new.

I could pull off a set of Vortec heads from some truck for 300. Hell, Ian was selling worked Vortec heads for that much!

LS1 parts are no where near "cheap". When cams and lifters cost under 150 bucks, when headers cost under 300 bucks coated, etc etc...you get the point.
LS1's are not nearly as affordable as SBC's. SBC will continue to be the king engine.

transmaro93
04-28-2009, 08:09 PM
hah... o dont take it so serisously... this is all in good fun... and if anybody honesestly is going to look down on sombody becuase of what engine is in the f-body... then they are not worthy of being a car guy... if everybody owned a 2002 trans am or SS the meets would be pretty boring... but look at the shore meets alone... we got a TPI camaro, LT1 firebird and camaro... LS1 trans am... that are the usualls... imean nice variety... BTW... if you really think hard... any fbody that is probably runnign a GEN 1 block is probably a little out of most of the peoples price range and or mechanical ability... right away a decent driver 1st gen is going to run you at least $20grand an early 2nd will probably run you $10-15grand.... i mean sure you can buy a 79 camaro rust bucket...but who wants to drive that around and if they dont have the money or know how to fix her up then its a waste... so they just buy a more affordable nice looking lt1 car or thirdgen... theres more too it than just hear-say... oh and btw while i own and lt1 car and plan on keeping it that way... i mean there is a reason the ls based engines have better stats... umm they are newer technology.... its evolution...

NJ346
04-28-2009, 08:11 PM
First off, its used. Low milage is still not new.

I could pull off a set of Vortec heads from some truck for 300. Hell, Ian was selling worked Vortec heads for that much!

LS1 parts are no where near "cheap". When cams and lifters cost under 150 bucks, when headers cost under 300 bucks coated, etc etc...you get the point.
LS1's are not nearly as affordable as SBC's. SBC will continue to be the king engine.

True. I wasn't trying to say that LS1>SBC. The SBC will always be around because of how long it has been around and is a proven platform. Now on the other hand, that Gen III and up is all pretty much based off of the LS1. The way I look at it, if your building an old hot rod and don't want a carb set up, your going to end up with an LSx setup.

NjbadSS
04-28-2009, 08:12 PM
even though I am an LS1 guy, I must agree, they are very expensive to mod. BigAl has many good point, and I can see what he means.

NastyEllEssWon
04-28-2009, 08:25 PM
dustin found his ls1 block with 40k miles on it for 500 bucks, a set of ls6 heads ported and polished with double springs for like 700 and the rest for not much more. thats gen 1 prices for new school power.




i said the ls1 is slowly pushing the older motors out, and its true. once all you old farts with your dinosaurs die then we can finally put the gen 1's and 2's to the moooozaaaaams where they belong

LTb1ow
04-28-2009, 08:27 PM
LS1 is a museum piece with the new 5th gen coming out. Hate to break it to the LS1 nuthuggers but your hey day is over.

NastyEllEssWon
04-28-2009, 08:33 PM
LS1 is a museum piece with the new 5th gen coming out. Hate to break it to the LS1 nuthuggers but your hey day is over.




yeah because theres a big difference between an ls1 and ls3? pfffff. theyre still based on the same design.




the 5th gen is gonna be an utter fail and will be on sale for under 20k in the next year or so just like its little brother the gto

BonzoHansen
04-28-2009, 09:50 PM
dustin found his ls1 block with 40k miles on it for 500 bucks, a set of ls6 heads ported and polished with double springs for like 700 and the rest for not much more. thats gen 1 prices for new school power.For used parts, you could do that or cheaper used for SBC. You can find a used running roller motor & used canfields or something for that money and keep up with that setup.

And for retrofits the cost goes up a lot. Fuel system, headers, mounts, intake setups, wiring & programming, oil pans, accessory systems, cooling, etc. If you already have a BBC or SBC setup in the car retrofitting is much more $$. At least old cars usually come with rears that can handle more than 100 HP. :rofl:

Let me know when your or dustins car can outrun any of the dinosaur powered cars Josh runs. Or simply stay together and run for 90 straight days. :lol:

NastyEllEssWon
04-28-2009, 09:56 PM
For used parts, you could do that or cheaper used for SBC. You can find a used running roller motor & used canfields or something for that money and keep up with that setup.

And for retrofits the cost goes up a lot. Fuel system, headers, mounts, intake setups, wiring & programming, oil pans, accessory systems, cooling, etc. If you already have a BBC or SBC setup in the car retrofitting is much more $$. At least old cars usually come with rears that can handle more than 100 HP. :rofl:

Let me know when your or dustins car can outrun any of the dinosaur powered cars Josh runs. Or simply stay together and run for 90 straight days. :lol:





ouch :nod:

NJ346
04-28-2009, 10:02 PM
Let me know when your or dustins car can outrun any of the dinosaur powered cars Josh runs. Or simply stay together and run for 90 straight days. :lol:

Let me ask you this...do Josh's cars run on pump gas or race gas? If it's race gas, your argument is null and void. There are plenty head/cam cars running 10's on pump gas, which I don't consider that bad. And to add heat to the fire.... There was recently an auto Z06 running 8.80s on pump gas and full weight.<---this car is still LSx based so it is fair to compare to josh's cars.

Btw, Zo6> the square box they call a turd gen

:fight:

In the end, the SBC>LSx based cars right now, but that doesn't mean that they aren't becoming more popular.

Mike
04-28-2009, 10:14 PM
last i talked to him, josh runs pump gas

BonzoHansen
04-28-2009, 10:17 PM
No one said they aren't gaining in popularity.

I think his cars run pump gas, but I'm not 100%, but that is not the point. I could replace them with a dozen other cars off the top of my head. And that is the point others have made, some of the LS-nutswingers discount other engines off hand - until they get slapped at the track. And no offense to anyone, but it is more often that not it is young guys who sometimes act like domestic ricers. The noisy ones never run their cars and what they don't know about cars could fill volumes.

And why are you comparing a $65,000+ Z06 to a 20 year old 3rd gen? Talk about an argument being null and void. If it is all about new>old, then get rid of your 4th gen (which is a 3rd gen with a funny nose & lighter engine) and buy a real car with a better trans, better front suspension and better rear.

NJ346
04-28-2009, 10:25 PM
And why are you comparing a $65,000+ Z06 to a 20 year old 3rd gen? Talk about an argument being null and void. If it is all about new>old, then get rid of your 4th gen (which is a 3rd gen with a funny nose & lighter engine) and buy a real car with a better trans, better front suspension and better rear.

You were comparing the LS1 to a race car that god knows how much cost to build up. The reason I brought up the Z06 is because it is a street legal 8 second car, I don't see any SBC being able to pass emissions with the work it needs to take to get any car into the 8's. And my car suites me well for what it is, no need to go blowing extra money.

Mike
04-28-2009, 10:28 PM
wait, there's an emissions legal 8 second ls1?

BonzoHansen
04-28-2009, 10:29 PM
Josh drives his cars, they pass PA emissions. I see them all the time.

"my car suites me well" - but rip on 3rd gens when those owners say the same thing?

NastyEllEssWon
04-29-2009, 12:24 AM
wait, there's an emissions legal 8 second ls1?





i think he's talking about the atomic orange 4l85e super lsx c6 z06 putting down a few high 8 second passes in street trim on ''pump'' gas...although he's running methane injection...which kinda negates the pump gas part but whatever.....ron knows more about...he's seen the car firsthand

98tadriver
04-29-2009, 01:30 AM
lol ive seen the car but i dont know much about it.


id like to see a gen 1 and/or 2 sbc engine get 24+mpg like a stock internal/bolt on LS1 car and still run as fast as one with the same mods

from what ive been reading, the gen 5 camaro, even with a bigger/newer engine, isnt going to be much faster than a 4th gen because of how much bigger it is. i doubt many people will buy them, especially with the way the economy is these days.

sweetbmxrider
04-29-2009, 07:39 AM
hahahaha and how much does that 8 second z06 cost? you owned yourself

BigAls87Z28
04-29-2009, 07:44 AM
I think thats a pretty good accomplishsment and shows how much real power the 5th gen is putting down.
It omes in at about 200lbs heavier then the lightest Z28/Formy from the factory.
It has massive wheels, 4 inches larger in diameter then said Z28/Formy
Larger brakes
IRS

It doesnt matter in the end. I think the OP stated the question wrong.
Will the LS1 die? yes, the LS1 is pretty much dead.
Will the Gen III/IV die? No, because its still alive. LS1's smaller bore will slowly fall out of favor as the larger 6.0 blocks start to make its way out there. People are already doing massive displacement Gen III/IV motors, so tey arent gong to stay with the small bore 5.7 LS1.
The LS1 will be like the 327 of its time. Good power, was in a lot of performance applications, but larger displacement engines and better technology took it over.

My question is...what happens when the Gen V"s roll out in a about a year or two? Direct Injection FTW...

7pointoh
04-29-2009, 07:53 AM
I do not think the release of the 5th Gen Camaro will diminish the popularity of the LS1. The LS2 has been out since '05 and the LS1 is still here. And like I said before, the difference between the Gen III/IV engines are that big. Almost all external parts are interchangeable.

As far as the LS1 guys looking down on LT1 folks. Well I can't speak for everyone else, but coming from a guy that has owned an LT1. I don't look down on ya, I just feel sorry for ya. j/k

WildBillyT
04-29-2009, 08:34 AM
No one said they aren't gaining in popularity.

And that is the point others have made, some of the LS-nutswingers discount other engines off hand - until they get slapped at the track. And no offense to anyone, but it is more often that not it is young guys who sometimes act like domestic ricers. The noisy ones never run their cars and what they don't know about cars could fill volumes.



There it is.

And Al is right- the LS1 is going to be like the modern day 327. Great for its time but now that there are bigger and better options (especially for transplanting) they are going to be left behind.

BonzoHansen
04-29-2009, 09:08 AM
And if you actually know what you are doing you can make a 327 scream...just like you'll always be able to make an LS1 scream.

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 09:18 AM
If you can hear anything over the piston slap. :lol:

WildBillyT
04-29-2009, 09:40 AM
And if you actually know what you are doing you can make a 327 scream...just like you'll always be able to make an LS1 scream.

You can make a 283 scream if you want to. Just most people pass over it for other stuff.

Mike
04-29-2009, 10:21 AM
i think he's talking about the atomic orange 4l85e super lsx c6 z06 putting down a few high 8 second passes in street trim on ''pump'' gas...although he's running methane injection...which kinda negates the pump gas part but whatever.....ron knows more about...he's seen the car firsthand

lol ive seen the car but i dont know much about it.

it has no cats. and a big enough cam to not pass emissions. it can be a street car, but vinnie said "emissions legal"

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 10:30 AM
OBDII doesn't need to have cats or any emissions equipment.... lol sooo its legal!

fantastic fail.

Mike
04-29-2009, 11:48 AM
OBDII doesn't need to have cats or any emissions equipment.... lol sooo its legal!

fantastic fail.


WHAT?

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 11:51 AM
WHAT?

Yes.

PMd

NJ346
04-29-2009, 12:58 PM
OBDII doesn't need to have cats or any emissions equipment.... lol sooo its legal!

fantastic fail.

OBDII still needs cats, but no check engine light= pass.

So instead of fantastic fail, it was just a fail on his part.:lol:

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 12:59 PM
You all fail, I was being sarcastic.

BonzoHansen
04-29-2009, 01:03 PM
You all fail, I was being sarcastic.

I assumed you were kidding! :lol:

sweetbmxrider
04-29-2009, 01:03 PM
well some states don't do the whole emissions thing....

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 01:04 PM
yea but then theres no difference in the discrepancy between OBDI/OBDII testing.

BonzoHansen
04-29-2009, 01:06 PM
well some states don't do the whole emissions thing....

Technically tampering/removing/altering/moving a cat is a federal offense, even if a state does not check.

sweetbmxrider
04-29-2009, 01:06 PM
get out! yeah you need like headlights, brake lights, and seat belts :lol: i have no idea actually

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 01:11 PM
And in the end, revised firing order sounds like ass.

Long live the Gen1/2 SBC. :)

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-29-2009, 01:14 PM
And in the end, revised firing order sounds like ass.

Long live the Gen1/2 SBC. :)

Hard to hear the fireing order when your buslenghts behind isnt it?

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 01:16 PM
Hard to hear the fireing order when your buslenghts in front isnt it?

I am sure Bill's car would kick your car's ass up and down the strip:nod:.

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-29-2009, 01:19 PM
I am sure Bill's car would kick your car's ass up and down the strip:nod:.

Dont drag race and could careless...it was just a joke. Good for Bill whoever he is lol

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 01:21 PM
You make no sense, you know that right?

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-29-2009, 01:22 PM
You make no sense, you know that right?

Yea sure...got ya

BonzoHansen
04-29-2009, 01:23 PM
What is a buslenghts? Is that like a dichpher?

MonmouthCtyAntz
04-29-2009, 01:24 PM
What is a buslenghts? Is that like a dichpher?

Yea you got it..

sweetbmxrider
04-29-2009, 01:36 PM
baddest434 = bill

NastyEllEssWon
04-29-2009, 10:04 PM
baddest434 = bill





yeah and he has like 30 grand and a binder full of reciepts into that car....motor probably costing over 10k to begin with.



its not unheard of to see ls1 motors pulling street duty and still running 9 seconds all motor. bill uses the laughing gas :wink:


the point is. the ls1 isnt dying at all. you guys wish it would and its not going anywhere. as for it being the 327 of its day...im pretty sure that would be the lt1. produced in limited numbers, for a few limited years and has a small following but there are obviously better choices for the same bucks



:wink:

Mike
04-29-2009, 10:17 PM
yeah and he has like 30 grand and a binder full of reciepts into that car....motor probably costing over 10k to begin with.



its not unheard of to see ls1 motors pulling street duty and still running 9 seconds all motor. bill uses the laughing gas :wink:


the point is. the ls1 isnt dying at all. you guys wish it would and its not going anywhere. as for it being the 327 of its day...im pretty sure that would be the lt1. produced in limited numbers, for a few limited years and has a small following but there are obviously better choices for the same bucks



:wink:


bill runs 9s on the motor

LTb1ow
04-29-2009, 10:19 PM
yeah and he has like 30 grand and a binder full of reciepts into that car....motor probably costing over 10k to begin with.



its not unheard of to see ls1 motors pulling street duty and still running 9 seconds all motor. bill uses the laughing gas :wink:


the point is. the ls1 isnt dying at all. you guys wish it would and its not going anywhere. as for it being the 327 of its day...im pretty sure that would be the lt1. produced in limited numbers, for a few limited years and has a small following but there are obviously better choices for the same bucks



:wink:



Um, how?

Last time I checked the GenIIs are real 350s... And better choices? You show me a stock SBC that has stock heads flowing better than LT1 heads...

sweetbmxrider
04-29-2009, 10:23 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/2673998757_07e6d9274f.jpg

its weird how many people tend to do the 6.0 over teh almighty

WildBillyT
04-30-2009, 08:33 AM
its weird how many people tend to do the 6.0 over teh almighty

Still a great motor, still makes tons of power, but I would not be surprised if we see fewer new parts being made. LT1's are probably even worse off. But that's the progression of technology. Gen I's are only doing OK because there are millions of them out there around the world. Gen II and Gen III motors were only really in F-bodies, Corvettes, and GTOs for 6 years each. Not a lot of them floating around. The Gen I was installed in production motors from 55 until I think 2005. 50 years of production, in everything from Bel Airs to panel trucks.

LTb1ow
04-30-2009, 08:35 AM
Eh, I think there is now a company making stock LT1 shortblocks for under 1500. Not saying that the market is rocketing, but theres still a heartbeat there.

WildBillyT
04-30-2009, 08:38 AM
Eh, I think there is now a company making stock LT1 shortblocks for under 1500. Not saying that the market is rocketing, but theres still a heartbeat there.

I'm not saying that there is NOTHING there, and NOTHING being developed. I just think things will start to fall off, even if slowly and slightly.

LTb1ow
04-30-2009, 08:40 AM
Yup agreed, most of the guys that were pushing the envelope with technology etc have moved onto the LSX stuff.

BonzoHansen
04-30-2009, 10:18 AM
yeah and he has like 30 grand and a binder full of reciepts into that car....motor probably costing over 10k to begin with.And the cost to build a 9 second Z06 is so much cheaper? Last I looked the car is still a good chunk of change.

the point is. the ls1 isnt dying at all. you guys wish it would and its not going anywhere
No one said they want the LS1 to die, damn, can any of you nutswingers read? LOL

…produced in limited numbers, for a few limited years and has a small following but there are obviously better choices for the same bucks.
Gee, sounds like you could be describing the LS1 – which last I looked was only found in comparatively low production cars over a few years – Vettes, F-Bodies and early GTOs. If I were building a gen III/IV engine from scratch, I’m sure not starting with an LS1.

Do you have any good points? :rofl: I feel like Tsar. :)

LTb1ow
04-30-2009, 10:30 AM
Nah, Tsar is not always right. ;)

sweetbmxrider
04-30-2009, 10:37 AM
yeah i agree gen 1's have wayyyy more going for them.

LTb1ow
04-30-2009, 10:39 AM
And you convert GenI heads to work on LT1s, so therefore LT1s win.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-01-2009, 09:17 AM
I still remember back in the day when I had my full bolt on / 373's 97 LT1 and raced my buddys brand new 99 A4 SS...I held him off for awhile from a dig then around 80 bye bye LS1 to the tune of 2 cars real quick :cry:...damn that was a bitter pill to swallow then.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-01-2009, 09:20 AM
No one said they want the LS1 to die, damn, can any of you nutswingers read? LOL



:rofl: ...now that was good lol

Tsar
05-01-2009, 10:48 AM
Nah, Tsar is not always right. ;)
hey now :lol:

LTb1ow
05-01-2009, 11:27 AM
No one said they want the LS1 to die, damn, can any of you nutswingers read? LOL

I do. :nod:

baddest434
05-01-2009, 01:21 PM
bill runs 9s on the motor

i can't run pump gas :cry: .. 116 octane ftw but yes 9's on motor


Good for Bill whoever he is lol

:wavey:

yeah and he has like 30 grand and a binder full of reciepts into that car....motor probably costing over 10k to begin with.










i got closer to 40 grand into the car believe it or not. best of parts = lots o'money...engine was 12.5k with headers 15k

mc73nova
05-01-2009, 01:26 PM
And you convert GenI heads to work on LT1s, so therefore LT1s win.

Now you can use LS heads on GenI's :naughty:

LTb1ow
05-01-2009, 02:19 PM
That would interesting to see.

mc73nova
05-01-2009, 02:21 PM
That would interesting to see.

here you go. http://www.worldcastings.com/whatsnew.htm
On the left hand side "Hybrid"

LTb1ow
05-01-2009, 02:23 PM
Ehhhhh, I dunno whether that counts.....

mc73nova
05-01-2009, 02:27 PM
Ehhhhh, I dunno whether that counts.....

It counts alright, for an extra 30-40 hp!

LTb1ow
05-01-2009, 02:34 PM
Yea but its an aftermarket block... ehhhh

mc73nova
05-01-2009, 02:37 PM
Yea but its an aftermarket block... ehhhh

It is but it is a great idea. It will also keep demand up for both styles of engine. That horsepower gain is just from windage!

LTb1ow
05-01-2009, 02:38 PM
Weird combo though, GenI cam journals with LSX lobes... strange.

BigAls87Z28
05-01-2009, 05:17 PM
So does that mean I can have a SBC looking engine, but with L92 heads and a cam with 650 lift?

zuuhlsT/A
05-01-2009, 05:17 PM
He took you to school, now get over it.

NastyEllEssWon
05-01-2009, 09:36 PM
i can't run pump gas :cry: .. 116 octane ftw but yes 9's on motor




:wavey:


i got closer to 40 grand into the car believe it or not. best of parts = lots o'money...engine was 12.5k with headers 15k





haha i forgot about the headers. glad to see that my estimate wasnt far off. i was just roust abouting what i saw in your car. :lol:


i dont take anything away from anyone that builds any type of gen1. i dont care for the lt1's so yeah i trash them all the time, its fun. im just saying that with the power to economy ratio the ls1 isnt going anywhere....anytime soon. its here to stay

Mike
05-01-2009, 10:23 PM
:horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse:

NJ Torque
05-01-2009, 11:02 PM
horsey eh, mike?

Frosty
05-01-2009, 11:49 PM
LO3 FTMFW...you can't hang...

98tadriver
05-02-2009, 08:10 PM
oh and i got the latest issue of motor trend, 5th gen camaro SS with the LS3 V8 runs 13.0 @ 111mph stock, on stock street tires. thats about the same as a 4th gen. and of course either car could be faster, depending on whos driving it.

BigAls87Z28
05-02-2009, 09:13 PM
Mph is a good five mph higher. And if you compare mag times ls1 cars ran mid 13s when new.

NJ Torque
05-02-2009, 11:46 PM
But more cubes... and more technology...

BigAls87Z28
05-03-2009, 08:06 AM
And more weight. And more rotational mass. And better looking.

12.95 @112 is the fastest Ive seen. I belive it was hot rod mag. 112mph is a lot for a high 12 sec car. This thing should deffinatly be in the mid 12's.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-04-2009, 07:10 AM
oh and i got the latest issue of motor trend, 5th gen camaro SS with the LS3 V8 runs 13.0 @ 111mph stock, on stock street tires. thats about the same as a 4th gen. and of course either car could be faster, depending on whos driving it.

Yea but think about it they use to make 13.6-7 passes in 6spd LS1's...We all know they cant drag race...I think well be seeing some mid 12's outta them stock soon enough.

Frosty
05-04-2009, 08:27 AM
oh and i got the latest issue of motor trend, 5th gen camaro SS with the LS3 V8 runs 13.0 @ 111mph stock, on stock street tires. thats about the same as a 4th gen. and of course either car could be faster, depending on whos driving it.

Show me a bone stock LS1 with street tires that's trapping at 111....that's not happening.

NastyEllEssWon
05-04-2009, 06:15 PM
big deal about trap. its obvious this thing cant get off the line and get its fat ass moving. the new camaro is crap.

Frosty
05-04-2009, 06:17 PM
big deal about trap.

That only tells you the power it's making....to hell with that meaningless bit of info. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

BTW, try launching an IRS rear compared to a solid axle rear...big difference(I HATED HATED HATED the IRS in the 'vette)

NastyEllEssWon
05-04-2009, 06:39 PM
i know that trap speed shows your power but can data can also be skewed by the fact that they can be spinning hard off the line which would make your trap speed a bit higher than it really should.





i know all about launching an irs as well. used to own a 1990 supercoupe 5 speed. loved that car to hell. :nod:

Featherburner
05-04-2009, 08:11 PM
i know all about launching an irs as well. used to own a 1990 supercoupe 5 speed. loved that car to hell. :nod:With that car you could hardly call it launching. :rofl:

BigAls87Z28
05-04-2009, 08:25 PM
Vette and the MN12 chassis's are much different then these cars.
#2, the Camaro's tested have less then 1k miles on it.
#3, EVERY review so far has the Camaro in the 13.0 or faster. Show me how many car rags hit 13.0 @ whatever mph consistantly in testing.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 08:11 AM
I still remember back in the day when I had my full bolt on / 373's 97 LT1 and raced my buddys brand new 99 A4 SS...I held him off for awhile from a dig then around 80 bye bye LS1 to the tune of 2 cars real quick :cry:...damn that was a bitter pill to swallow then.
My 94 Formula with a set of 3.73's, mid headers, Transgo shift kit and a CAI was taking out LS1's in the 1/4. I know a couple of LS1 guys who will tell you I beat them by a few car lengths.. I probably currently have like 1/4th the amount of money you put into changing over into a LS1,, anytime you want to run, just shoot me a PM,. I am usually at the track once a week anyway.

Still am very impressed how well LS1 react to mods though and stock for stock, they are the more efficient design to the prior platforms.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 09:40 AM
My 94 Formula with a set of 3.73's, mid headers, Transgo shift kit and a CAI was taking out LS1's in the 1/4. Pretty general statement...some info would be good. FYI I had the exact same setup on my 97 z28. We're they stock 273 cars because w/ those mods id imagine the race would be over after the 8th w/ either a 323 auto or 6spd LS car. I remember when the LS1's first came out, watching them at etown vs. LT1's it would be a close run til the 8th then the LS1 just left.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 09:46 AM
I probably currently have like 1/4th the amount of money you put into changing over into a LS1

Doubt that seeing I bought the car complete w/ the swap already done for 3500.00 bucks. As far as racing you I have nothing to prove to anyone. Only part of the track this car might see is the parking lot.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 09:51 AM
Pretty general statement...some info would be good. FYI I had the exact same setup on my 97 z28. We're they stock 273 cars because w/ those mods id imagine the race would be over after the 8th w/ either a 323 auto or 6spd LS car. I remember when the LS1's first came out, watching them at etown vs. LT1's it would be a close run til the 8th then the LS1 just left.
What more info would you like?. I can state what I had again if that would help? and I have seen plenty of LT1's with very similiar mods beat stock auto and stick LS1's both on the street and at the track. I am not a LS1 hater and give them mad respect but you are talking about a 40 horsepower difference stock for stock and thats easily made up for when modding comes into play. I agree a stock LT1 racing a stock LS1 will keep pretty close race til around 80 give or take 5 MPH and then the LS1 will start walking on it. I have also seen LT1's stock take LS1 out of the hole pretty good then get passed down the track at some point. It depends alot on who's driving each but we aren't talking about a hundred horsepower difference from the two different platforms from the factory anyway.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 09:56 AM
Doubt that seeing I bought the car complete w/ the swap already done for 3500.00 bucks. As far as racing you I have nothing to prove to anyone. Only part of the track this car might see is the parking lot.
I am not going to go into how much I paid for my car but I still think I am way under. I am not hating on your LS1, I am just stating for a guy who thinks a underdog LT1 can't be made fast cause you had a "full bolt on" LT1 that couldn't even give a stock LS1 a run for its money, you might be willing to back up that statement.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 10:02 AM
What more info would you like?. I can state what I had again if that would help?
You didnt state anything lol...All you said is you beat LS1's in the 1/4....and I asked you what tranny(or mods) they had. The Lt1 setup you stated is good for mid to lower 13's at best...and is traping nowhere near a properly driven stock 6spd LS car....or some stock autos for that matter.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 10:07 AM
I am just stating for a guy who thinks a underdog LT1 can't be made fast Funny I dont remember saying that..

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 10:09 AM
You didnt state anything lol...All you said is you beat LS1's in the 1/4....and I asked you what tranny(or mods) they had. The Lt1 setup you stated is good for mid to lower 13's at best...and is traping nowhere near a properly driven stock 6spd LS car....or some stock autos for that matter.
I am talking stock LS1's. I raced guys with a stock auto, had 3.23's in some cases (got a few friends that had auto's with 3.23's ). I raced a friend's 6 speed out in long island and it was probably even longer than a 1/4 and he didn't pass me.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 10:12 AM
Funny I dont remember saying that..
You know what, I hate net racing. Any time you would like to show up a LT1, you just let me know and stating a full bolt on LT1 can't beat a stock LS1 is saying it takes alot to make them fast and with that, I highly disagree.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 11:19 AM
and stating a full bolt on LT1 can't beat a stock LS1 is saying it takes alot to make them fast and with that, I highly disagree.
Cant recall ever saying that either. Sounds like you have a super LT1...good luck w/ that. Since you need it put in black and white any properly drive stock 323 or 6spd. LS car should have its way w/ YOUR bolt on LT1 in the 1/4. I think you beat some drivers rather then their cars.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 11:34 AM
Cant recall ever saying that either. Sounds like you have a super LT1...good luck w/ that. Since you need it put in black and white any properly drive stock 323 or 6spd. LS car should have its way w/ YOUR bolt on LT1 in the 1/4. I think you beat some drivers rather then their cars.
My car is a long way from just having some gears and a set of headers. I was stating back then what I had and was taking out "stock" LS1's. I have also raced too many LS1's to realize what they should of done and what happened, so I will just add maybe you should take driving lessons if you couldn't beat that LS1 with a full bolt on LT1 back in the day. Peace and good luck with the car, let me know if you ever make it to the track.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 11:42 AM
My car is a long way from just having some gears and a set of headers. I was stating back then what I had and was taking out "stock" LS1's. I have also raced too many LS1's to realize what they should of done and what happened, so I will just add maybe you should take driving lessons if you couldn't beat that LS1 with a full bolt on LT1 back in the day. Peace and good luck with the car, let me know if you ever make it to the track.

Wasnt my driving it was the wrong choice of headers. Good luck with your car as well.

Frosty
05-05-2009, 11:42 AM
Cant recall ever saying that either. Sounds like you have a super LT1...good luck w/ that. Since you need it put in black and white any properly drive stock 323 or 6spd. LS car should have its way w/ YOUR bolt on LT1 in the 1/4. I think you beat some drivers rather then their cars.

A properly driven bolt on LT1 runs, what, anywhere from 13.40's-13.20's(typically)?

That's right up the alley of a stock LS1...not every LS1 is a 12 second factory freak.

LTb1ow
05-05-2009, 11:44 AM
Noooo your missing the point here. A stock LS1 can't be beat. Der. They are just to fast, to furious.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 11:57 AM
A properly driven bolt on LT1 runs, what, anywhere from 13.40's-13.20's(typically)?

That's right up the alley of a stock LS1...not every LS1 is a 12 second factory freak.

Yea typically with long tubes...he had mids.

Noooo your missing the point here. A stock LS1 can't be beat. Der. They are just to fast, to furious. word...

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 12:00 PM
Yea typically with long tubes...he had mids.
word...
LMFAO!!!!!. Oh man, I really gotta stop reading what people write on forums. Cause we all know the difference between mids and long tubes is astonishing. It was almost like I added a 100 shot when I switched to long tubes.

Edit- If I gained a tenth=10horsepower from switching. I would have been shocked,

Frosty
05-05-2009, 12:01 PM
Yea typically with long tubes...he had mids.

You're nit-picking now. I don't see how it's so far-fetched his bolt on LT1 laid the smack down on a few LS1's...

Some people here need to drop the f'in ego, seriously. I've owned a few LS1 cars and yes, the motors ARE the best out there but contrary to popular believe God didn't build the motor...he was on vacation that day....and yes the LS1 can be beat :gasp:

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 12:01 PM
LMFAO!!!!!. Oh man, I really gotta stop reading what people right on forums. Cause we all know the difference between mids and long tubes is astonishing. It was almost like I added a 100 shot when I switched to long tubes.
On LT1's it was...what were they slp?

Frosty
05-05-2009, 12:02 PM
LMFAO!!!!!. Oh man, I really gotta stop reading what people right on forums. Cause we all know the difference between mids and long tubes is astonishing. It was almost like I added a 100 shot when I switched to long tubes.

Dude, long tubes would give you like a full .01111115 faster time on a bolt on car....that's obviously the difference maker....

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 12:03 PM
On LT1's it was...what were they slp?

I had Pacesetter mids and now have pacesetter long tubes.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 12:05 PM
Dude, long tubes would give you like a full .01111115 faster time on a bolt on car....that's obviously the difference maker....

Id have to disagree w/ that..all depends on what brand of mids it was.

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 12:07 PM
I had Pacesetter mids and now have pacesetter long tubes.
Pacesetter mids on LT1's might as well been called shorties...I had the same set.

Frosty
05-05-2009, 12:07 PM
Id have to disagree w/ that..all depends on what brand of mids it was.

Again, nitpicking...stop being so ass-hurt because a LS1 got beat.

....and my post was laced with sarcasm. ;)

MonmouthCtyAntz
05-05-2009, 12:10 PM
Again, nitpicking...stop being so ass-hurt because a LS1 got beat.

....and my post was laced with sarcasm. ;)
lol. I think those were the worst shorty/mid headers ever made for a LT1...The Y pipe that came w/ the set didnt even come close to mateing up to the exhasut system :rofl:

Mike
05-05-2009, 12:12 PM
holy crap this is stupid

Frosty
05-05-2009, 12:12 PM
You're still missing the point...but ok.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 12:13 PM
lol. I think those were the worst shorty/mid headers ever made for a LT1...The Y pipe that came w/ the set didnt even come close to mateing up to the exhasut system :rofl:
Mine fit fine. I ofcourse had to use better gaskets and better bolts but I had new motor mounts and everything on my car lined up perfectly. They aren't the best made headers out there but I noticed a nice improvement in sound and horsepower.

7pointoh
05-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Back on topic. If I had to choose between a n LS1 or an LS3. I choose the Gen IV engine. That being said. I would also choose an LQ4/9 over an LS1. The popularity won't go down because of a new generation block. Just read all the silly (yet entertaining ) post people make about the almighty *place your engine here*.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 01:08 PM
Well since I didn't throw my 2 cents in on the actual topic. I don't think the LS1 is going anywhere but do agree the LQ4 or LQ9 is the better choice, there are alot of people that are loyal to every make and models platform. The SBC and BBC for that matter have probably the hardiest core following out there (just talking GM, I think the Hemi guys could give us a run for our money) and rightfully so, the things you can do to one and the retrofit parts being made every day are amazing. The LSX down the road I believe will have this same type of following and is getting close to there every day. The LTX IMO shouldn't have been considered a different generation cause its basically a SBC with reverse flow cooling and the heads are pretty much Vortec heads (if you put them side by side they look pretty damn close) with a different intake manifold (90% of the parts are interchangable).

I think the LS1 following is still going to be kicking for a long time down the road.

NastyEllEssWon
05-05-2009, 01:15 PM
Cant recall ever saying that either. Sounds like you have a super LT1...good luck w/ that. Since you need it put in black and white any properly drive stock 323 or 6spd. LS car should have its way w/ YOUR bolt on LT1 in the 1/4. I think you beat some drivers rather then their cars.





just fyi. my last 98 auto i had went a best of 13.59 (13.6's consistent). it was pretty much stock. 100k miles. lca's, lid and catback. so basically stock. the car would pull 2.0 60 fts (not pushing it hard at all) and not launching hard at all. trapped at 104 so no reason to push it much harder. just saying that its not hard for a bolt on lt1 to keep up with that.


edit: this is full interior, full weight, a/c, jack and spare and toolbox in the trunk

DevilDougWS6
05-05-2009, 01:25 PM
what I would like to know is, where did all of this "LT1 bashing" come from? I, for one, do not think the LS1 is "almighty" "built by god" "the best" "cant lose" by any means. I know there is a lot of poking fun at each other. I only do it to fit in. But we are all domestic/muscle car guys and girls right? We all have the same affinity for American vehicles with big engines and going fast right?

So everyone shut the **** up, get off your high horses, no one is better than anyone else, there are always faster cars out there, all it takes is to know what you are doing and how much money you can spend. END OF ****ING STORY

NastyEllEssWon
05-05-2009, 01:31 PM
it came from that thread last year ls1 vs lt1 where me and a few other members started the poking fun of. it has gotten out of hand. its funny when your in person and poking a little fun but some people on here have taken it to be the word and heartfelt feelings towards it.

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 01:43 PM
I personally love both platforms, for that matter I am a former owner and huge fan of TPI's too. I have met a few LS1 owners from this board and have some friends I have known for a while that happen to choose a LS1 F-body or Vette, I usually just brush off most of the things I read cause the LS1 stock for stock is a very efficient platform and I'm sure I will own one down the road but what I have noticed is what I use to notice back in the day when I owned a 5.0 stang, you get kids with quick cars and they can't help but poke fun at the slower guys (stock for stock) and this turns into then hardcore bashing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being proud of what you drive or what you choose to sink your hard earned money into but when this turns into I have the biggest balls around and no one can touch me, thats when lessons need to be learned. I am not saying this is the exact case hear but the LS1 could have only got to where it is performance wise if the prior platforms existed and with the right amount of money anything could be made fast. Still got mad love for all my GM brothers though.

NastyEllEssWon
05-05-2009, 01:49 PM
yup got mad love for my gm brethren. i like to make fun of lt1's cause its fun. its like the big brother picking on the little brother. its all in good fun but sometimes it gets out of hand and turns into a full on fight.




on a side note though. i would never be brave enough to own an lt1 powered car. those things are asking for trouble :wink:

Formulalt1
05-05-2009, 01:56 PM
on a side note though. i would never be brave enough to own an lt1 powered car. those things are asking for trouble :wink:
Why would you have tools if you wheren't suppose to use them and just wait another 5 years and lets see how dependable those LSX become, LMAO!!!