How the hell is this possible?

[enRo]

http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20090428/COMMUNITIES33/904280323/1344/NEWS14

Take note of his age. :shock:


MORRIS TWP. -- A man whose license has been suspended 78 times was allegedly driving drunk when he crashed into a pickup truck, injuring a man and his 4-year-old daughter, before running away to try and hide in a nearby park, police said Monday.

Shaun P Campbell, 39, of East Rutherford, was charged with driving while intoxicated and obstruction of justice after the Friday evening crash at the intersection of South Street and Spring Valley Road, police said.

Police were called to the intersection by a Morris County Park Police officer at Loantaka Brook Reservation who reported a head-on crash, police said.

Harold A. Bivins Jr., 48, of Chatham Township, and his 4-year-old daughter were in his 2008 Ford pick-up when it was struck head-on by Campbell's 1994 Ford Bronco, police said.

Campbell fled the scene on foot into Loantaka Park, police said.

With the assistance of the Morris County Sheriff's Office K-9 Unit and the Harding Township Police, the driver was apprehended a short time later in the park and was arrested, police said.

Bivins and his daughter were treated at the scene for minor injuries by the Morris Minutemen First Aid Squad, police said.

It was later discovered that Campbell had a $3,500 warrant out of Morris Township for fleeing from a crash in 2007, police said.

Campbell was treated at Morristown Memorial Hospital for head injuries, police said. He was taken to the county jail for default of bail, police said.

Campbell's license is currently suspended, according to Motor Vehicle Commission spokesman Michael Horan.

The latest penalty was the 78th time Campbell's license was suspended. His license was first suspended on March 3, 1987, for driving while intoxicated. Since then, his license was suspended 12 times for that same offense, Horan said.

Campbell's license was suspended another 41 times, including his most recent one on April 10, because of non-moving violations, or administrative offenses such as for failure to appear in court, Horan said.

His license was suspended on other occasions for point violations and driving with a suspended license. Campbell's license currently has 24 points, Horan said.

"Basically, we have the power to suspend the license but we don't have the power to see what they do at every moment," Horan said.

[BonzoHansen]

My only guess is infractions came before laws changed? Is there even a limit to the # of suspensions one can have??

Not that it matters, his license is currently suspended and the dirtbag is still driving.

[enRo]

Is there even a limit to the # of suspensions one can have?

Thats why Im asking how the hell is that even possible :rofl:

[BonzoHansen]

They should cut that guy's right foot off.

[sweetbmxrider]

there is no limit. the state makes most $$$ off of him too.

[wretched73]

They should cut that guy's right foot off.

Just cut both of his legs off. Someone better suited might need one... Plus he could still drive with a stub :rofl:

[foff667]

24 points on his license, imagine the surcharges...the state makes more money yearly off of this guy on the street than they do with him in prison :lol:

Seriously this guy should not be driving and frankly should not be a free man IMO. He obviously has 0 respect for the law or the safety of others.

[baddest434]

12 arrest for DWI and he's not behind bars for years. c'mon

[Crayface]

IMO the state is being negligent to the fact of safety of others...what if this dude kills someone drunk driving? he should of been taken to prison a long time ago

[BonzoHansen]

12 arrest for DWI and he's not behind bars for years. c'mon

I bet that comes back to the date of the offense. Laws changed a lot since 1987. Either way, off with his head.

[69BirdX]

how is it possible he is only 39 and lost 78 times during a 22 years of him being able to drive

[enRo]

how is it possible he is only 39 and lost 78 times during a 22 years of him being able to drive

If you do the math, his license was suspended at least once every 3 1/2 months in his 22 years experience behind a wheel :lol:

[69BirdX]

but you figure after your 3rd offense you def have it for a loss of over year......or no. california he would be in jail

[Mike]

but you figure after your 3rd offense you def have it for a loss of over year......or no. california he would be in jail

like bonzo said a couple times.......that is a recent law

[sweetbmxrider]

they can add up. i just don't know how he hasn't done jail time while on a suspended license, unless they just left that out. you can also get suspensions while suspended, obviously.

[PolarBear]

Either way, off with his head.

I say literally. I think DUI should be second strike you get your license privelages revoked permanantly. Any offense after that you should be put in prison

[zuuhlsT/A]

Put a bullet in him next time he drives. We all got our demons but his should be put out of our misery. Come on... He screws up a 4 year old kid??? WTF???

[FlyingDutchman]

:bs:

noway how could he have gotten any kind of insurance after even the 10th time? you can't drive without insurance

besides, if he got his license like 16-17 years old, he would have it suspended like 3.5 times a year

[BonzoHansen]

:bs:

noway how could he have gotten any kind of insurance after even the 10th time? you can't drive without insurance

besides, if he got his license like 16-17 years old, he would have it suspended like 3.5 times a year

There is some missing info, like maybe some of the suspensions were concurrent or perhaps extensions. But he's driving w/o a license, what makes you think he has insurance? Or the car is not insured in his name. I don't see where it was his car that he was driving.

[FlyingDutchman]

There is some missing info, like maybe some of the suspensions were concurrent or perhaps extensions. But he's driving w/o a license, what makes you think he has insurance? Or the car is not insured in his name. I don't see where it was his car that he was driving.

ok i can see that, but i cant see how his license is suspended and not revoked... especially with dui 12x

[HeadlessNorseman]

12 DUIs and he still has a license to suspend? I thought they take it? I know a guy who had his license suspended for 15 or 16 years for DUI and crashing and/or hurting someone, IDK exactly. Thats insane

[jims69camaro]

I say literally. I think DUI should be second strike you get your license privileges revoked permanently. Any offense after that you should be put in prison.

they have the three strikes law about felonies. they should also have a three strikes law about your license. as in the third offense of the same type and you lose it forever. they really have to get tough with these drunk drivers. right now, driving drunk with all of the fines, etc., really amounts to a slap on the wrist. and any good lawyer can get a deal so that either it doesn't show up as a DUI or it doesn't show which time it is (second, third, etc).

you can also fault the judges and their laziness in not requiring a driver abstract every time a DUI case comes before them. it is so easy for judges to order that the driver abstract be in court (just like the cop has to be there). but either laziness or ineptitude keeps people like this on the road because then the judge doesn't have the abstract in front of him to hold this type of person responsible for his multiple (beyond the scope of the law, even! ) DUI convictions. and you can bet either this guy or his lawyer is not going to offer that kind of information up and if asked about it he will either claim ignorance to the prior offenses or bold faced lie about it.

unfortunately, no law is going to keep him from driving on the revoked list. the only thing that will cure him of that is some time in prison (more than 364 days) or a bullet to the grill. it sounds like this guy will be doing some hard time, now that it has been on the news wire. certain people will get a hold of this information and use it to bolster their argument.

[PolarBear]

they have the three strikes law about felonies. they should also have a three strikes law about your license. as in the third offense of the same type and you lose it forever.

My point was that I do not think the law is strict enough. There is no excuse for DUI, first time you learn your lesson second time should be the last. Some people dont think there is a problem with DUI and it is a big deal, drunk drivers kill people all the time. In this day there is no excuse to call someone or get a cab yet some people continue to do it even when they have no drivers license at all.

[fire95bird]

My uncle had 2 DUIs over 20 years and got his 3rd one two years ago. He lost his license for 10 years and did 6 months in prison. He didn't get into any accidents, no one was hurt, was just pulled over and got the FST. This guy did so much worse and is still alive. I have no clue how this guy is still driving with all the Mothers Against Drunk Driving and other groups pushing to have the penalties worsened.

[jims69camaro]

i hate to say it, but it goes back to my argument that there are enough laws on the books already. cops need to enforce the laws and judges need to impose the terms. the problem is, people still think that drinking is a social issue when it clearly has much deeper ramifications.

at the very least treat it like the disease that it is and get the person treatment. intervention has to come way before people are allowed to get to this point, because (as our membership shows) when it gets here all people want is his head on a spike.

[Crayface]

i just reread this article and dammmm he is from my town! lol im going to have to watch out driving in my town now...

[NJSPEEDER]

I think you are on the right track Jim. It isn't that there aren't good rules out there, it is more about the system of enforcing them and dealing with those convicted is broken.

Police get stuck with their time being devoted to whatever task force or enforcement blitz local politicians think will best help their re-election efforts. Elected officials even going as far as only releasing funding to departments and barracks are enforcing those chosen tasks.

Then, after the police get the time to actually do their jobs other than just the politically popular parts, we have no real rehabilitation system. Prisons have become a for profit industry and the people running them honestly have no obligation or motivation to fix what we can all see is broken.

[PolarBear]

at the very least treat it like the disease that it is and get the person treatment. intervention has to come way before people are allowed to get to this point, because (as our membership shows) when it gets here all people want is his head on a spike.

I hate when people call alcoholism a "disease". It isnt a disease, it is more like a disorder and I use the term lightly. Your body isnt addicted to alcohol like some drugs, it is poison pure and simple. Dont put it in you and you wont have any problems. Its all about making a choice and most people choose to do the wrong thing. :evil:

[Crayface]

I hate when people call alcoholism a "disease". It isnt a disease, it is more like a disorder and I use the term lightly. Your body isnt addicted to alcohol like some drugs, it is poison pure and simple. Dont put it in you and you wont have any problems. Its all about making a choice and most people choose to do the wrong thing. :evil:

Those people who call alcoholism a "Disease" are the ones who are correct. I work Security for a hospital and all the Police Officers who pick up drunks off the street cannot goto the station and put them in a "Drunk tank" they are required to goto the hospital. You may not think it is a Disease but our wonderful state specificly defines alcoholism as a disease.

[PolarBear]

If you believe everything you read and your government tells you I feel really sorry for you

[Crayface]

If you believe everything you read and your government tells you I feel really sorry for you

yea since you deal with this everyday.... I work with drunks all the time at my job. I know for a F-A-C-T that it is considered a disease in the eyes of New Jersey. if you dont think so then you dont, but understand you are the one getting annoyed about people making factual statements.

[BonzoHansen]

yea since you deal with this everyday.... I work with drunks all the time at my job. I know for a F-A-C-T that it is considered a disease in the eyes of New Jersey. if you dont think so then you dont, but understand you are the one getting annoyed about people making factual statements.

I think you read his intent wrong. I don't think he is saying the govt doesn't see it as a disease, I think he is saying it's wrong that they do.



I still think this one little article is not painting the whole story, as noted often the numbers don't add up too well. The laws have changed over the years and perhaps a good deal of this was prior to tougher laws. plus we are assuming the content is correct.

[98tadriver]

Just cut both of his legs off. Someone better suited might need one... Plus he could still drive with a stub :rofl:

he could still drive with no legs! lol

[PolarBear]

I think you read his intent wrong. I don't think he is saying the govt doesn't see it as a disease, I think he is saying it's wrong that they do.
Yeah thats basically what I was saying. I dont feel mental deficiencies should be classified under diseases.

[Mike]

yea since you deal with this everyday.... I work with drunks all the time at my job. I know for a F-A-C-T that it is considered a disease in the eyes of New Jersey. if you dont think so then you dont, but understand you are the one getting annoyed about people making factual statements.

what do you do?

[Crayface]

Security for a Hospital, basicly after the cops get the drunks, they dump them off in the Emergency room. some are calm, then others just like to fight, but thats why im there!

[PolarBear]

yea since you deal with this everyday....

Security for a Hospital,

I fail to see how these two things prove that you know alcoholism to be "fact" except you are again referring to my previous statement that you are listening to something someone else told you. I am not trying to pick a fight here but some of what you read and told are things that start with some sort of assumption.

[LTb1ow]

So the people that have alcoholism in their family are just weak minded fools who cannot control themselves?

[PolarBear]

So the people that have alcoholism in their family are just weak minded fools who cannot control themselves?

For the most part I believe that to be true. I know someone that was diagnosed with another mental disease and I know they use it as an excuse to continue to act how ever he/she wants.
I am not saying these people dont have something wrong with them but I think it is largely an excuse and a lot of them do not want the help. Unfortunately people in the OP link show the absolute worst case scenario but people like that dont give a fiddlers f%$# what they do or who they hurt. I have been there where I saw that alcohol could become a problem for me and I chose not to contine drinking like I did, my cousin is in a similar situation and I worry about him sometimes because he tells me how he got drunk this night or that.
People that are alcoholics do need help but I do not think this is a disease

[LTb1ow]

Ignorance is bliss.

[PolarBear]

I think your ignorant of what having an addiction means.

Please educate me then. I know a physical addiction is real. You dont get your heroin or other drug and you DIE because of it. You can die from a mental addiction. Through couseling and support groups these people can overcome these issues.
Like I said there is something wrong with them and they DO need help.

[LTb1ow]

I edited my post. Don't wanna argue.

[PolarBear]

Ignorance is bliss.

I edited my post. Don't wanna argue.

I am not ignorant.

[LTb1ow]

And I am not a duck?

Whats your point?

[PolarBear]

And I am not a duck?

Whats your point?

You insinuated that I am ignorant.
No one here is providing any information against my opinion. And unless you have personally done the research yourself you have to feder to another person. I have seen people with similar "diseases" amd I dont believe it for one second. I may be downright WRONG but I can still have my opinion.
I dont necessarily trust what a doctor says about someones mental state especially when I was put on a medication for something and it screwed up my nervous system and I should not have been put on the medication in the first place.

[LTb1ow]

Nope, it was just directed in general.

I could be ignorant, you could be ignorant, point being I just don't feel like writing up something to back my side so I am just leaving it at that.

[Crayface]

lol this thread is hilarious.....whos up next to share opinions with scooter? hahaha

[bubba428]

And I am not a duck?

Whats your point?

:rofl: i'm sure at any other hour of the day that would be just one more in the plethora of misspellings from a number of people, myself very much so included. but for some reason, at 4am, I'm litteraly in tears laughing at that. I don't know why but when I read that I pictured a duck, in a bar, ****faced, saying "and I am not a duck". just thought I'd share that.

[maroman88]

i agree with scooter 100%

[Formulalt1]

Yeah thats basically what I was saying. I dont feel mental deficiencies should be classified under diseases.
I half agree with this and half don't. There are people out there due to there mental state, that are not aware of what they are doing or how they are behaving but most of the time the laws that where meant to get help for these rather than punish them are used on people without this mental state as a way out.

I do strongly believe in addiction as being a very real handicap in life. I believe some should take responsibility for putting themselves in a position to become a habit forming junky to whatever there negative influence in life is, but if there is one thing I have learned in my over 31 years on this planet is that life would be alot less optimistic without second chances (not 15th chances not 28th chances). It is easy to sit back and judge everyone around you for there flaws and what they did to get themselves in a position none of us would want to be in but who among us has never made a decision that could possibly have had horrible consequence in our life or better yet I bet there are alot of people that did the negative action and where the unlucky one's to have the consequence's. should it be lets lock up them,throw away the key and not give them a chance to turn things around for themself(ofcourse I am aware there are extreme cases where this is necessary).

Some people and I have been there don't completely understand risk until the worst possibly imaginable thing from your actions has happened. Sorry that was so long winded and half off topic but just throwing in my 2 cents and a little extra, lol.

[jims69camaro]

I hate when people call alcoholism a "disease".

you say it's all about a choice. when a person no longer functions but still drinks is diseased. after he has lost everything: his friends, his family, his job, etc., and still he drinks is no longer making a choice.

webster's defines disease as : a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

alcoholism is a disease

[PolarBear]

you say it's all about a choice. when a person no longer functions but still drinks is diseased. after he has lost everything: his friends, his family, his job, etc., and still he drinks is no longer making a choice.

They DO still have a choice. No where in this society is drunken behavior acceptable and if whay crayface says is true then once sobered up in the hospital they could seek help.
To say that someone cant make a choice is only making the problem worse, there is a choice every minute of every day. It is not an acceptable behavior and it is driven into our heads almost everywhere we go.

[LTb1ow]

You should go get hooked on heroin or something before you start preaching that everyone who has an addiction is less of a person than yours truly.

Have you ever had an addiction?

Do you know how much it can cloud your judgment?

Or are you being ignorant?

[PolarBear]

You should go get hooked on heroin or something before you start preaching that everyone who has an addiction is less of a person than yours truly.

Have you ever had an addiction?

Do you know how much it can cloud your judgment?

Or are you being ignorant?

I never claimed to be better than anybody else. I do have an addiction, although it only affects myself. I know it clouds my judgement every day. I HAVE a choice but I make excuses when I know there is a way to correct it. No one is perfect and I am far from it and I will admit that but there is no excuse for drunk driving, NONE!

[LTb1ow]

Drunk driving?

I was just arguing against your point of alcoholism being something of an excuse for people to drink and play the woe is me card.

[PolarBear]

Drunk driving?

I was just arguing against your point of alcoholism being something of an excuse for people to drink and play the woe is me card.

IMO it all goes together. Again I refer to my ealier point of the person I know with the other mental problem. She uses it all the time as an excuse to do what ever the **** she wants. She downright refuses help and that was her choice, to be a worthless bag of meat that is a burden on the economy and society. She sees what she can get away with and uses it to her advantage. In one instance if I had not known the police offices involved and they knew the history of the house I would have gone to jail when I didnt do anything wrong.
I am not saying this is exactly the same with alcoholism but it still works similarly.

[jims69camaro]

IMO, you are comparing apples to oranges. you are comparing someone who was misdiagnosed with some mental deficiency who uses it for her personal gain to someone who is truly diseased.

there are levels that alcoholism may affect a person. sure, if you are a social alcoholic, as when a group of friends gets together, alcohol is bought and consumed. you have a choice to drink or not drink, but since everyone else is doing it, then it is acceptable and you do it. that is choosing.

taking this one step further, you drink at every opportunity. friends get together, alcohol is purchased and consumed, it is acceptable. you drink a cocktail upon returning from work. it was a hard day and you deserve a cocktail. still acceptable, still ok. you have a glass of wine with dinner. still acceptable, still ok, still making a choice, right? after everyone leaves, you stay up. wife/gf wants to go to bed, you say no, i am staying up. you finish every drop of alcohol in the house, leaving no stone unturned. still acceptable? still ok? some would argue that, yes, it is still ok. but the disease is present and unless something is done, it will devour your life.

you go out to a party. before leaving, you have a shot or two "to take the edge off". still acceptable. once you get to the party, you consume enough alcohol to be the one dancing around with a lampshade on your head. or some other behavior that is considered "the life of the party". still acceptable? still ok? you refuse to give your keys up. you drove there, you are going to drive home. no one is able to talk you out of it. you are legally drunk, but drive anyway. no one is going to tell you when you can drive your car. your wife/gf, having seen this behavior before, knows not to interfere with you or you may become violent. she goes along for the ride. you get home safely, but cannot remember how you got home. parts of the party are either completely blacked out or "fuzzy". still aceptable? still ok? while only the hardcore alcoholics would argue that the behavior at this point is still acceptable, others know it clearly is marking you as a raging drunk who becomes more violent with the more alcohol you consume. certain friends stop inviting you over. your colleagues at work stop wanting to have a beer with you, since it goes from one beer to ten very quickly, and then you get violent when someone wants to go home, calling them a party pooper. your in-laws are deeply concerned for their daughter, but after her repeated statements that you are just going through "one of your states" and they figure you'll snap out of it one of these days. only your other affected friends will drink with you now, as they are also violent when they drink so it usually ends the night when two or more of you get into a fist fight. no big deal, as the black eye you got last night will be gone in a few days. people you work with have stopped talking to you, but don't think they have stopped talking behind your back. someone mentions an intervention - someone else thinks it's a better idea if your family does it, as you might not consider those you work with worthy of your respect. all the while they marvel at how your dress code has changed and the black eyes and split lips that pop up from time to time. your in-laws, at this point, are heavily trying to influence their daughter into leaving you, as you have begun using her as a punching bag when you get home from the bar. of course you say you are sorry in the morning, and she might even believe you for now. but she is one punch from the door, believe it. and if you have kids with her they will go with her, and the judge will agree with her. he might even think you'll listen to him when he tells you to "shape up, mister, or i'll be throwing you in jail", but he knows you are most likely going to ignore him. you've begun to drink alone, since the others who used to drink with you won't anymore. that, and most of your friends have been ignoring you for well over a year. your wife left you and took the kids with her. you are not allowed to visit with them without proper supervision, and they have started calling another man "daddy". you have lost your job, since your employer has warned you time and again about coming to work smelling of alcohol in dirty clothes. since your wife left you, you can't figure out how to get the damn washing machine to work - or is it the alcohol that has crept into every facet of your life that clouds your reasoning ability? you are now homeless, begging for money so you can get a bottle to put you to sleep since it's started getting very cold out and none of your friends will put you up anymore.

when did it go from having a choice to controlling your life? now do you understand why it is considered a disease? i am not talking about your mis-diagnosed friend here - this is someone who truly has a problem.

it was easy to see in my example how it went from social drinking to begging for money on the street; not so easy to see when you are on the inside looking out. all you see are people pulling away from you. like i said, it has different levels of affliction, so it might not lead all the way to bottom like i've shown here. hell, losing a gf is one way guys find bottom and decide to join AA or find some other help.

it's not a choice, is what i am saying to you. it is the most destructive, and affects the most number of people in our society.

btw, the person in my story was fictional. obviously, certain parts i have seen in family and friends, so it's more appropriate to say that he is a conglomeration of aspects of the disease as i have seen it in others and myself.

[LTb1ow]

Well put Jim.

[PolarBear]

when did it go from having a choice to controlling your life? now do you understand why it is considered a disease? i am not talking about your mis-diagnosed friend here - this is someone who truly has a problem.

I could flat out argue your third scenario to no end. I already saw my life going towards that at one point, and I made a CHOICE to not continue down that road. So I go back to the other statement that that person was a weak minded whatever. I saw that I was hurting the people around me that I cared about and I didnt want to be some low life POS. I told myself not to become that person and not to drink like that anymore, it was hard and I have broken that promise to myself a few times.
I am pre-disposed to anger in much the same situation. I have done some things that I really regret to this day and it was out of rage from things done to me in my past. I know where a lot of these things everyone is saying come from, first hand. Dont tell me there is no choice, I know it can be a very slow gradual downward slope and I made the choice not to go down that road.

[jims69camaro]

don't let me be the one to tell you that not everyone is like you. like i said, it affects people differently. you saw what was happening and you chose to stop it. not everyone sees it or has the power to stop it from progressing. you were one of the lucky ones, but you are still battling the disease from your own statements. if it weren't a disease, then what are you battling on a daily basis?

alcoholics have to make a decision every day not to take a drink. it takes that much commitment. the only other disease that requires that level of commitment is cancer. alcoholism is like a cancer, slowly eating away at your life.

[LTb1ow]

don't let me be the one to tell you that not everyone is like you. like i said, it affects people differently. you saw what was happening and you chose to stop it. not everyone sees it or has the power to stop it from progressing. you were one of the lucky ones, but you are still battling the disease from your own statements. if it weren't a disease, then what are you battling on a daily basis?

alcoholics have to make a decision every day not to take a drink. it takes that much commitment. the only other disease that requires that level of commitment is cancer. alcoholism is like a cancer, slowly eating away at your life.


QFT.

[Tsar]

alcoholics have to make a decision every day not to take a drink. it takes that much commitment. the only other disease that requires that level of commitment is cancer. alcoholism is like a cancer, slowly eating away at your life.

Wrong. You can't tell cancer to stop it. However, you can put the battle down. Once cancer spreads you are in the mercy of doctors, and pretty much luck. With booze one always has a choice to put the bottle down and stop being an idiot. My family has experienced both, on more than one occasion.

[jims69camaro]

Wrong. You can't tell cancer to stop it. However, you can put the battle down. Once cancer spreads you are in the mercy of doctors, and pretty much luck. With booze one always has a choice to put the bottle down and stop being an idiot. My family has experienced both, on more than one occasion.

you make it sound so easy to put the bottle down. from your own experience you know it is not. anyone caught in the throes of alcoholism does not have the power to just put the bottle down. it takes counseling. it take group therapy. it takes years before they are strong enough to stand on their own, and still mistakes happen along the way.

i am a firm believer that there are only three destinations with alcoholism, and anyone who has been to a meeting with Bill W., knows this: death, prison or a mental institution. that's it, unless they hit rock bottom and have the help to get back up. unless a major life-changing event transpires, they continue down the toilet.

you can't tell alcoholism to just stop it. if you are afflicted with the disease, it is with you for the rest of your life. no ifs, ands or buts. and like cancer, it requires the intervention of a knowledgeable professional to help them back to health. with cancer, sometimes you are lucky and you just cut it out and it never comes back. you can't just cut out alcoholism and it doesn't come back. it is with you for the rest of your life, each day requiring the commitment to stay sober. one is too many, ten is not enough.

[Tsar]

you make it sound so easy to put the bottle down. from your own experience you know it is not. anyone caught in the throes of alcoholism does not have the power to just put the bottle down. it takes counseling. it take group therapy. it takes years before they are strong enough to stand on their own, and still mistakes happen along the way.

i am a firm believer that there are only three destinations with alcoholism, and anyone who has been to a meeting with Bill W., knows this: death, prison or a mental institution. that's it, unless they hit rock bottom and have the help to get back up. unless a major life-changing event transpires, they continue down the toilet.

you can't tell alcoholism to just stop it. if you are afflicted with the disease, it is with you for the rest of your life. no ifs, ands or buts. and like cancer, it requires the intervention of a knowledgeable professional to help them back to health. with cancer, sometimes you are lucky and you just cut it out and it never comes back. you can't just cut out alcoholism and it doesn't come back. it is with you for the rest of your life, each day requiring the commitment to stay sober. one is too many, ten is not enough.

We are gonna disagree on this topic big time (just like smoking). But I highlighted one key phrase "strong enough". Yes in order to combat the addiction one needs to have some balls, period. I view alcoholics as weak minded oxygen sucking pieces of crap that do not have a back bone and would not piss on you to put out a fire. Alcoholism is something that an individual brings upon themselves by drinking (doh). No one made him pick up that first bottle of Vodka and drink it, no one made him pick up the second one, or the third one. They do it themselves, they are the only one to blame for their addiction, and they are the only ones that can stop it. Surely some that do not have a back bone will need some big group of people to talk things about and give them a big hug but that's only because they are not strong enough (Weak minded, sissies, whatever you wanna call them) to do it themselves. I believe in personal responsibility and putting alcoholism in the disease column would not be doing so, it's not like anyone gets it from their neighbor.

Sorry I do not baby people that chose to screw up their life on their own initiative. Sure someone can bring up genetics and all that BS, which people often hide behind, which I do not believe, each individual makes a choice, and alcoholics made theirs. I do not see alcoholism and cancer being related in any shape or form. One is purely accidental and luck of the draw, the other one is self induced stupidity.