LT1 LE or AI....??

[transmaro93]

just looking for oponions on both companies.... Lloyde Elliot and Avanced Induction... cant decide who to go with.... Ai offers everything from their site to really make a complete long block.... LE just does heads and cam... but i was told he will work with you to help you choose parts and stuff... this is gonna be my first build and im not to sure about parts matching and what now... not very experienced in the engine dept... but im gonna learn so any help is greatly appreciated....

[LTb1ow]

Or ditch the stock heads, and get some T4Ps.

Edit: More I think about it, def ditch the stock heads, spend the big bucks and get some nice heads, get em ported.

[transmaro93]

i dont even know what they are... but whats the point of ditching the stock heads and spending more $$ on aftermarket heads when i can get the performance in looking for with stock ported heads.... i just read a guys sig on ls1tech taht has stock bottom end lt1 le2 and a medium cam... and hes going 11.9 on motor and 10's on spray... so i should be able to do a 383 on stock heads... alls i want is a mid-low 11sec car... any faster than that is not streetable im not trying to build a race car....

[LTb1ow]

Read the fine print, car weight, and redline makes a huge difference....

Ported stockers for a 383 will be maxing out the stock heads, not much room for later improvement.

[sweetbmxrider]

well obviously, you don't have any trailer setup in mind.

were you thinkin le2's or le3's?

...and suspension

[LTb1ow]

LE3s.

Suspension, and drivetrain will need a lot of attention...

Fueling too.

[sweetbmxrider]

how much of a gain will he see from le3's compared to le2's? would the le2's be holding a 383 back too much? seems like $ per pony le3's are a little much, but i guess cam choice in the le2's might be a little wild especially if he wants to stay streetable.

[LTb1ow]

I was told around 10-15hp gain.

[sweetbmxrider]

yeah....would it be at a lower peak rpm though?

[LTb1ow]

Peak RPM will be more dependant on cam selection and valvetrain stability.

[transmaro93]

the car is going to run what it runs.. and if i want to make a 10 sec car out of it later on.. THEN ill get some aftermarket heads... im not worried about suspension and all that jazz... im going to upgrade EVERYTHING.... trans is going to get send to hanlon when im ready... gonna go with a chomoly driveshaft and a strange s60 or 12 bolt.. .or moser... not sure yet... fuel will be upgraded with a better pump and bigger injectors... im not worried about all that jazz....

[LTb1ow]

Well suspension is almost more important than the motor... look at my car... to much power for suspension means slow ass times...

[transmaro93]

if i go with LE im probably gonna go with the LE3 setup becuase im going to be doing bottom end anyway and the pistons will clear the valves...

[LTb1ow]

Even a set of LT4 heads will give you more potential than stockers...

[transmaro93]

Well suspension is almost more important than the motor... look at my car... to much power for suspension means slow ass times...

dude... you need to learn to race before you can call it onthe susp... i bet you could have gotten a low 12 outa taht car that night if you knew what you were doing.... if i was you id be more worried about launching hard on all that stock drive train.. but maybe it can handle it... those tires are sticky though....

[transmaro93]

Even a set of LT4 heads will give you more potential than stockers...

yea but then im paying twice.. i have tind a set of lt4 heads and then get them ported... pay twice... when its proven that stock heads can get me the #'s im looking for.... why are you fighting me on this....?

[LTb1ow]

Cause I am right. ;)

[transmaro93]

yo matt... PM your cam specs just so i have an idea to compar

[transmaro93]

i mean i got alot of money saved up but im not willing to spend $3000+ on just heads alone man... .not gonna happen...

[LTb1ow]

Heads make power. And no.;)

[transmaro93]

this build is gonna drive me crazy untill the day its done... its already driving my nuts and i havent even started it yet....i wish i knew more about **** so i can just be like yea... this that and this... boom done...

[LTb1ow]

Pistons, rods, bearings, cam, heads, valvetrain, crank, oil pump.

Whats so hard?

[transmaro93]

theres so many of each of those to choose from! and im not to keen on what works with what good... im gonna talk to elliot see what he says... but i wanna talk to my local machine shop first...

[LTb1ow]

I know its not the best way of going about things but Karl makes some nice engines and lists for the most part all the parts he uses... check it out.

http://www.ellweinengines.com/

[transmaro93]

this guy doesnt build engines anymore though right?

[sweetbmxrider]

alls i gotta say is weight transfer is critical in 1/4 mile times

would you need larger fuel lines with the pump and injectors? how much crank hp we thinkin here?

[transmaro93]

maybe like 500 crank... looking to do at least 440-450 to the wheels... that should be good enough for a mid 11sec N/A pass... with sopporting suspension... as stated manytimes you suspension freak lover you....

[LTb1ow]

Walbro 255. Bigger braided fuel lines for the safety factor and coolness ;)

[transmaro93]

stoke fuel rail flows enough though??

[LTb1ow]

Prob. You may wanna make em paralell. Not sure the terminology, but you have a Y off your main line, and then a reg on the other end of the fuel rails connecting em.

I am no expert on that so I would talk to your engine builder or a more experianced engine builder.

[transmaro93]

you are my engine builder matt!!!!!! dont fail me now!... nahh i will... thats far far away though.... just asken since you brought it up...

[LTb1ow]

Yea, I can do some research for ya. Fuel is a big part in making sure you don't blow up your engine.

[sweetbmxrider]

thats why i asked....

[LTb1ow]

Becuase no mod has yet to add in, have you talked to JS or TMR about the engine Brandon?

[transmaro93]

nahh im gonna talk to my local guy first... who is tmr

[LTb1ow]

Matt and Al, the guy with the nice nova

[Formulalt1]

If your heads don't flow. You will never get the power you are looking for and ported stock LT1's (basic port and polish) only net what LT4's get stock.

[LTb1ow]

Have you given thought to running a single plane intake and elbow since you are set on spinning it past 6500?

[transmaro93]

im not gonna spin it past 6500 i dont think.. and no i just wanna keep it lt1 intake... i mean the possibilities are endless.. but i see people go mid low 11's which is what i want with stock ported heads and stock ported intake i dont know why i cant.... with driver mod obviously...i can go crazy and build a 700hp monster but thats not waht i want... i dotn want a race car i want a fast street car...

[LTb1ow]

Well you need to sit down, and plan out what you want from the car, then see how your budget can cover those wants. Figure out what is needed and what can be ditched.

Never plan on spraying it or boosting it? Cast crank and hypereatuic(sp lol ) pistons are good. Etc.

[LTb1ow]

You know... you could always run SBC heads... ;)

[Pampered-Z]

If your looking for 11's then even LE2 heads with a fairly aggressive cam will get you there. ( but it will not pass emissions!)

Making 450+ RWHP is going to be a bit tuff because you need to spin the engine fairly high, and @ 6800+ this is typically when you run into bearing failure. I perfer to target 400 RWPH and keep the RPMs no more then 6500 range and you can run 11's and it should remain very reliable.

For a stick, I like to shift @ 5800 or so to leave room for the engine to rev between shifts.

LE2 heads, and 306/847 or LE equivalent (forget which cam that is, but there is one), will make enough power in the 6500-6800 RPM range. They like to be spun higher, but with a stock bottom end I wouldn't suggest it if you want the engine to live long.

Here is a build we did a while back. The link below details all the parts we used.

http://www.97transam.com/

You can add ported heads ( head gaskets - Felpros will boost your CR a bit ) oil and fuel system upgrades ( I'd suggest 42LB injectors so if you rebuild and go 355.383 you would need to buy injectors again, and a 255 Pump is goof to near 500HP) This will allow you to figure out a ball park price on parts. ( note additional beer would be requires due to head installation! That could be a 5 case weekend!!! LOL! )

97T/A's engine was is great shape so at the time we didn't touch the oiling system and he isn't over reving! Car just missed running 11's and with the exception of the cam and converter is a mild bolton car, still has stock heads, TB, injectors. swapped the 3:23 for 3:42 gears for cruising and shortie headers, cat back and CAI. This car is a cruiser; he is targeting 11.60's so to not need a cage. Few upgrades and probably switching to 3:73s will put him right on his target.

Also built a similar setup but with heavily ported heads by LE's and his version of the 847 cam and longtubes- no cat Y-pipe, upgraded fuel pump, stock injectors and it made about 40 more HP. tighter stall and 3:73. Can't release his ET or MPH but it runs real good!

Both of the cars above are nearing the limits of their fuel systems, the LE headed engine is REAL close to maxing out the injectors, injectors are being upgraded to 42s and a 255 pump is replacing the stock unit. Also installed a new GM pump with the white spring and under hard breaking it will suck the pan dry! Larger oil pan is on order!

I would suggest looking at the 97TA cam install, and add heads, Felpro head gaskets to add a bit of compression and oil and fuel system.

You will need a loose converter for these big cams! The car will not idle in gear properly and they tend to stall out! Tuning cannot overcome this; you will need a converter so add that into your budget!

Note that both of these cars are complete cars, nothing removed power seat, T-tops, AC, ABS, emissions equipment etc are all still in the car and working! No light weight parts installed. both cars could also benefit from suspension upgrades as well!

Hope this helps, John

[transmaro93]

thanks john... this deff helps... im planning on building a 383 stroker... its most likely going to be an all forged motor... the car is an M6 so i dont have to worry about the converter... but will need a clutch/flywheel setup... what kind of oil pump do you recommend i use.. .because you mentioned that a few times... and should i go with a bigger oil pan right off the bat... the car will be drag raced... but not auto x'd... im most likely gonna do stock ported heads intake with supporting cam.... fully forged bottom end... 36-42lb injectors and a bigger pump... thanks for the reply..

[Formulalt1]

I think you will be fine with 36's but 42's do add room for improvement down the road Ford's 36's are actually more like 41's with a walbro's pressure and calculating in a 80% duty cycle with 500 flywheel horsepower that would require a 39lb injector. So you are running with some room for improvement with 36's. LE2 heads are very good heads but I don't know if thats the route I would go if I was looking for 450rwhp N/A 383. As head flow is the most vital part to making the big numbers. LE does do very good work and there are tons of people running well past what you are looking for with his product so it is all a matter of which route you like better though.

[Pampered-Z]

I run the McLeod street twin clutch. It's great for racing and street driving, BUT it does not like being in traffic! I won't recommend it for anyone that uses their car in heavy stop and go traffic. I did a local parade and from having to continuously slip it in the bumper to bumper traffic it got so hot it basically welded itself into a solid mass! But knowing that, I'd still buy it again! (I think they run around $1,400 now?)

You basically have a few options for the Oil pump. You can go with a new stock pump and swap out to a white spring ( the spring controls the oil pressure, White is the higher pressure ), or go aftermarket, the Melling pumps are good units IF you get the HD units, the stock replacement pumps have had issues with breaking.

For the pan Canton is a good unit, it's been around for a while but is not cheap, but now Moroso is making a pan and it cost less. This is the pan we have on order for a car so I should be able to report back in a few weeks how it compares to Canton's.

I run the melling HV pump and the Canton Race pan and I have 65 PSI and idle and 80 in the upper RPMS.

I'd suggest when you go parts shopping for your bottom end to look at quality ( yes more $$$) cranks. I have seen in person two of eagle's economical forged cranks snap! These were the cranks rated to 500HP and were in N/A LT1 383s that were right near, or just over the 500RWHP. Knowing that, spend a few extra dollars and go with something designed to handle a bit more.


Stock ported heads that are fully ported, larger valves ect. will support 500HP, You want to have your cam match the flow rates so that you keep the velocity up. That said, if you think down the road you might want more power then you should think about aftermarket heads now. Even LT4 heads and intake will give you good potential to grow. There is a local guy with LT4s making 500+ N/A and in the 800HP range with Nitris. :evil: But aftermarket heads will certainly outflow anything you can do with stockers. If you need that kind of flow?

One other point on using stock heads vs. aftermarket. Because of the small chambers and how far the piston sit in the holes on a stock block, when you get your block machined I suggest not getting it zero decked. You can run into piston-to-valve clearance issues with stock headsthat you wouldn't with larger chamber aftermarket heads. So keeping the pistons down in the hole is a good thing.

When I assembled my engine ( was zero decked and I didn't know that was bring done, so i learned the hard way!) and I had custom pistons made - stage III stock heads, I didn’t have the clearance I wanted and it wasn't an option to cut the pistons. So I had to switch to a slightly thicker head gasket and also dropped the lift on the cam a little to get the clearance I wanted. Now I went a bit big on the clearance, but being the engine was going to see high RPMs and is a manual I wanted some extra clearance so if I missed a shift and over rev'd I was less likely to smack a valve.

And not to be a jerk, but make sure you price everything out before you dive into the build, to do it right you don't want to be cutting allot of corners, and after you build the short block or long block you still need all the supporting stuff as well.

I started my build with a $5,000 budget ( already had heads and blower ) and went thru it all before the engine was even finished being put together! Things come up and plans can change. I'm 100% not trying to tell you not to do this, just plan things out. Nothing sucks more then running out of funding 1/2 way through a project!

[transmaro93]

I run the McLeod street twin clutch. It's great for racing and street driving, BUT it does not like being in traffic! I won't recommend it for anyone that uses their car in heavy stop and go traffic. I did a local parade and from having to continuously slip it in the bumper to bumper traffic it got so hot it basically welded itself into a solid mass! But knowing that, I'd still buy it again! (I think they run around $1,400 now?)

You basically have a few options for the Oil pump. You can go with a new stock pump and swap out to a white spring ( the spring controls the oil pressure, White is the higher pressure ), or go aftermarket, the Melling pumps are good units IF you get the HD units, the stock replacement pumps have had issues with breaking.

For the pan Canton is a good unit, it's been around for a while but is not cheap, but now Moroso is making a pan and it cost less. This is the pan we have on order for a car so I should be able to report back in a few weeks how it compares to Canton's.

I run the melling HV pump and the Canton Race pan and I have 65 PSI and idle and 80 in the upper RPMS.

I'd suggest when you go parts shopping for your bottom end to look at quality ( yes more $$$) cranks. I have seen in person two of eagle's economical forged cranks snap! These were the cranks rated to 500HP and were in N/A LT1 383s that were right near, or just over the 500RWHP. Knowing that, spend a few extra dollars and go with something designed to handle a bit more.


Stock ported heads that are fully ported, larger valves ect. will support 500HP, You want to have your cam match the flow rates so that you keep the velocity up. That said, if you think down the road you might want more power then you should think about aftermarket heads now. Even LT4 heads and intake will give you good potential to grow. There is a local guy with LT4s making 500+ N/A and in the 800HP range with Nitris. :evil: But aftermarket heads will certainly outflow anything you can do with stockers. If you need that kind of flow?

One other point on using stock heads vs. aftermarket. Because of the small chambers and how far the piston sit in the holes on a stock block, when you get your block machined I suggest not getting it zero decked. You can run into piston-to-valve clearance issues with stock headsthat you wouldn't with larger chamber aftermarket heads. So keeping the pistons down in the hole is a good thing.

When I assembled my engine ( was zero decked and I didn't know that was bring done, so i learned the hard way!) and I had custom pistons made - stage III stock heads, I didn’t have the clearance I wanted and it wasn't an option to cut the pistons. So I had to switch to a slightly thicker head gasket and also dropped the lift on the cam a little to get the clearance I wanted. Now I went a bit big on the clearance, but being the engine was going to see high RPMs and is a manual I wanted some extra clearance so if I missed a shift and over rev'd I was less likely to smack a valve.

And not to be a jerk, but make sure you price everything out before you dive into the build, to do it right you don't want to be cutting allot of corners, and after you build the short block or long block you still need all the supporting stuff as well.

I started my build with a $5,000 budget ( already had heads and blower ) and went thru it all before the engine was even finished being put together! Things come up and plans can change. I'm 100% not trying to tell you not to do this, just plan things out. Nothing sucks more then running out of funding 1/2 way through a project!

yea i know im going to go over budget i already came to terms with that... but iv been saving for quite some time for this so i have a decent amount to start with... who makes good cranks and rotating assems...? and ill deff talk to my machinist about the deck spacing and stuff thanks for all the leads man i really appreciate it...

[LTb1ow]

Best: Callies
Best for budget: Scat/Compstar

[transmaro93]

cool thanks...

[LTb1ow]

But no matter what the price tag, bad installs will ruin parts... that and lousy tunes.

[transmaro93]

if you follow the torque specs how bad could the install be?

[LTb1ow]

Piston ring gaps?

Bearing sizes?

Torques?

Etc.

[transmaro93]

well the ring gaps is really on the machine shop... and bearing sizes i guess if you dont know what parts you are getting... but i mean if all the parts are correct i dont see it being that hard to do??? i could be wrong... and i guess im gonna find out...

[sweetbmxrider]

theres more to engine building than torque specs

unless you were being sarcastic. are you doing the bottom end yourself?

edit: page 3 fail

[transmaro93]

i mean whats you have all the parts mapped out.... its really just assembling... getting the correct parts as im finding is going to be a pain... but after that i dont see it being that bad...

[sweetbmxrider]

two ways to find out....:D

[transmaro93]

whats the second way??

[sweetbmxrider]

easy/hard? right/wrong?

[HeadlessNorseman]

My best advice is to get the best bottom end parts you can afford/are willing to pay for, match everything up as best as possible, and let the numbers fall where they may, instead of going for X hp/ET. Its better to have a 7500 rpm boost friendly bottom end and stock heads/cam than the other way around(cough...matt). Also expect to spend most of your disposable income at the machine shop your getting it done at. I got lucky and the only motor build i ever did my dad had the motor already with .30 over forged pistons and a steel crank and another block with done up heads. I just had to buy a cam and induction and make it all work.

[Pampered-Z]

I hope you are joking! There is allot more to putting an entire engine together then just torque specs! You need to check the clearance for every thing! Bearing, rods and mains, torerance/thrust fit ring. Puting a rotating assembly together is very difficult and time consuming process.

If you don't have the tools AND skills to do this then pay the macihne shop the extra bucks to do it for you.

[transmaro93]

I hope you are joking! There is allot more to putting an entire engine together then just torque specs! You need to check the clearance for every thing! Bearing, rods and mains, torerance/thrust fit ring. Puting a rotating assembly together is very difficult and time consuming process.

If you don't have the tools AND skills to do this then pay the macihne shop the extra bucks to do it for you.

yea good call ill probably let the machine shop assmble the bottom end... im not trying to ruin my motor especially the money im going to put into it...