help choosing my rear...

[transmaro93]

OK... so the time is going to come sooner or later that im going to have to figure out what rear i want to go with.... choices are usual suspects 12 bolt, 9 inch, or dana60 (s60).... now im looking for opinions and facts on all 3... from what i understand the 12 bolt is the lightest but weakest... 9 inch is strong but has the most power loss.... and the s60 is the strongest but also the heaviest of the bunch, but has less power loss than the 9 inch... i think the s60 is overkill for my car.... roughty 550 flywheel HP lt1.... (give or take).... now i dont like the diff options for stranges 12 bolt... only offer spoool and eaton... no good... mosers 12 bolt offers spool eaton and trutrac.... but i really wanted a locker... i can get the moser 9 inch or s60 with a locker.... but moser 9 inch is really expensive and i still think s60 is over kill and just dead weight back there for a car at my power level.... any input is greatly appreciated.... i know 9 inches are like bullet proof... how strong are the 12bolts... and whats the power loss like on the 12 bolt... after i figure out what rear im going to be looking to buy one if the comming months so sponsers if you want to chime in feel free....i already checked pricing on spohns website and stranges so i know what they are looking for... see if you guys can do better..... thanks for any help guys!

[BigAls87Z28]

S60. It seems that its becoming the big winner in a lot of places.

[NastyEllEssWon]

i loved my 9'' in the t/a. you can really feel it back there. the peace of mind is also nice. beings its a front loader too its pretty easy to work on. if you get one i hear the trutracs are better than the detroit lockers. full spool on the street is gonna suck really bad. dont cheap out either with the axles. >31 spline

[98tadriver]

i had a 12 bolt with 33spline axles and an eaton HD posi in my car, and it was in my friends car before mine, and now its in 86formulas car (another friend of mine) it has been launched on slicks/drag radials by me and the previous owner and its working perfectly fine. demonicbird and jersey_ta also have 12 bolts sitting under their cars and i too plan to get another 12 bolt rear. demonicbird aka brandon makes 430-450 to the wheels, jersey_ta aka rob makes quite a bit of hp as well

[mc73nova]

My brother Al has a Moser 12 bolt and has been a 1.36 60' on slicks with no issues. Not sure how fast you are planning to go.

I still have my stock GM 10 bolt (8.5) with Moser internals and have been a 1.40 60', they dont make em like they used to :)

[transmaro93]

thanks for the replies guys... im shooten for mid low 11's with the car... im hopen to put down 450+ to the wheels with the right gearing.... i dont think the car will be able to go 1.3 60's but if i can that would prob be the best it would get... id probably be looking more at like 1.5's with what ever i do.... going to most likely run radials (m.t's, or hoosier) unless i have trouble with traction (which i dont think i will) then ill switch to regular slicks... i think im going to scrap the s60 idea... i just think its overkill for my car (9 3/4" ring gear is massive)... anybody know the weight difference from a 9inch to a 12 bolt?? just trying to figure out if the power loss of the 9 inch is made up in being lighter than the 12 bolt... i think any of the 3 will handle my power range... OHH BTW.... car is an M6 and will probably be launched at 5K+ traction pending....

[Czop418]

... i belive the 9ich is about 120 lbs. I could be wrong though

[NastyEllEssWon]

9'' are a big rear. as for the weight i dont know. you wanna know when i felt comfortable adopting the 9'' rear as my rear of choice???? the moment i laid down on the ground and looked under bills car and saw the same rear sitting there :nod:

[Saitin]

12 bolts are good for 450-500HP after that you need a 9" a s60 is pretty much a race rear 1k+ hp.
and a general rule I've come to believe in is 12 bolts are for auto's and a M6 needs a 9" when launching over 5k with a built motor.
There is some one on here I can't recall there user/name but they have broken a 12 bolt 3 or 4 times within a year or so. mike iirc??
That is my 2 cents

[BarneyMobile]

I say go with the 9inch but I'm bias toward the 9inch since I have one. I feel I made the right choice in going with the 9inch since I leave off the limiter. My self and many others have made pretty good power through a 9" Plus they're easy to work on. I got mine new with 35 spline axles, 3.89 gears and a locker. The only thing I would change is locker and go with a spool if I had to do it again.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

My reccomendation would be the Strange 12 bolt, for your application it will be the most direct swap and be more than strong enough. Give us a call when you are ready we can get you set up.

[WildBillyT]

12 bolts are good for 450-500HP after that you need a 9" a s60 is pretty much a race rear 1k+ hp.
and a general rule I've come to believe in is 12 bolts are for auto's and a M6 needs a 9" when launching over 5k with a built motor.
There is some one on here I can't recall there user/name but they have broken a 12 bolt 3 or 4 times within a year or so. mike iirc??
That is my 2 cents

You can't generalize on the strength of a rear based on it's design style. It depends on its components. Any of them can be built to handle a lot of power, it just depends on what you put in it.

There is a big difference between a stock GM 12 bolt with 30 spline axles, a posi, and c-clips and an aftermarket 12 bolt with the tubes welded, 33 or 35 spline axles, no c-clips, and a spool. Just like there is a difference beween a stock Ford 9" with 28 spline axles, a WAR center section, and an aftermarket one.

I recognize that nobody puts factory HD rears in their 4th gens since they need to be modified first. But ANY of the rears should be able to handle what most of people will throw at it. Aftermarket support is good for all 3.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Yeah, I have a few 3400lb cars running deep into the nines on 12bolts.. Do the math, its alot more than 500hp..

[Saitin]

You can't generalize on the strength of a rear based on it's design style. It depends on its components. Any of them can be built to handle a lot of power, it just depends on what you put in it.

There is a big difference between a stock GM 12 bolt with 30 spline axles, a posi, and c-clips and an aftermarket 12 bolt with the tubes welded, 33 or 35 spline axles, no c-clips, and a spool. Just like there is a difference beween a stock Ford 9" with 28 spline axles, a WAR center section, and an aftermarket one.

I recognize that nobody puts factory HD rears in their 4th gens since they need to be modified first. But ANY of the rears should be able to handle what most of people will throw at it. Aftermarket support is good for all 3.

that's just what I've found from almost 6 months of digging and researching on rears.

[WildBillyT]

that's just what I've found from almost 6 months of digging and researching on rears.

I think you may be misinterpreting the data. Plenty of people run a lot more than 500hp through 12 bolts. And don't put too much weight in cases where people buy used 9" and 12 bolt rears and have them fail. It depends on how they were cared for, installed, set up, etc. If somebody has Jo Blo automotive set up a gearset or change bearings and they are poorly done, the setup can still "work" but at reduced capacity.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

But if someone posted it on the internet, it must be true..
12 bolts have been (and are still) in some really fast cars for the last 40+ years. They are now garbage? Should everyone with a 12 bolt that has been running it with no problems yank it out and buy dana rears or the amazing exploding 9"?
All three styles of differentials are plenty stout for 90% of the cars out there it is just a matter of weighing the pros and cons of each design.

Only one guarantee in racing/performance work.. Stuff WILL break.

[transmaro93]

yea im just leaning more 9" over the 12bolt for the fact that im going to be on slicks and im a M6 car and will be launching like a madman (hopefully).... im going to start reasearching prices... so if you want to PM me some basic prices josh go for it.... i know price changes with options...

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Once they are optioned out they all come out to be around the same cost but the the base price for the 12-bolt is $2600 and the s-60 is $2350. One of the main differences in cost is that with the 60 your driveshaft will either need to be shortened or replaced the 12 botl will bolt right in with your existing parts.
I do not sell the 9" because in my opinion there is very little benefit to running it. It is definately NOT bulletproof as everyone seems to think. Most will not benefit from any of the pros that come with running one as opposed to the 12 or s60.
Also be forwarned, in my experience all of the aftermarket rear ends have a higher level of gear noise than the stock 10 bolt not a problem, just seems to be a quirk they have.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Once they are optioned out they all come out to be around the same cost but the the base price for the 12-bolt is $2600 and the s-60 is $2350. One of the main differences in cost is that with the 60 your driveshaft will either need to be shortened or replaced the 12 botl will bolt right in with your existing parts.
I do not sell the 9" because in my opinion there is very little benefit to running it. It is definately NOT bulletproof as everyone seems to think. Most will not benefit from any of the pros that come with running one as opposed to the 12 or s60.
Also be forwarned, in my experience all of the aftermarket rear ends have a higher level of gear noise than the stock 10 bolt not a problem, just seems to be a quirk they have.





the bevy of cars that ive seen sporting a 9'' are well over double the hp as the OP's projected target range and their 9''s seem to be holding up fine. ive only heard of some of them having broken axles (small spline) or posi's/lockers, ive only known one person to say theyve totalled crapped out a 9''.


not saying you're wrong, or anyone is in this thread....just adding my two cents from what ive seen around.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Well now you know two, and I have chunked two of them my self and my car only makes 830hp and has a turbo400 trans. The s-60 is stronger than the 9" by far anyways..

[transmaro93]

12 bolt sounds too expensive since im going with a new driveshaft either way i go... i dont have a stock steel anymore and the ls aluminum i dont trust... after options with the 12 bolt im looking at like $3500 with driveshaft... dont think i want to swing that.... i still think s60 is overkill... how much hevier is the s60 to the 12 bolt... and they are fairly new for the f-body scene... has anybody had any track time on them yet... i know brian (blackbirdws6 i think..) has one but i dont think he races his car (its far too nice for it)...i know he likes it but i want to see some track results too

[NastyEllEssWon]

Well now you know two, and I have chunked two of them my self and my car only makes 830hp and has a turbo400 trans. The s-60 is stronger than the 9" by far anyways..





hey thats why we have these types of threads, to get more information out there regarding said topic. im interested in what actually happened to your rear...if you wanna post it up or pm me im always interested in hearing the gory details of destruction :nod:




the 9'' seems to be a good compromise between the two though. i deffinately enjoyed the one i had in the t/a. it was quite stout feeling to say the least and held up to some use enough to shred my driveshaft. im confident that wouldve been a puked 10 bolt if the 9'' wasnt there.




seems no matter which application you get the consensus is the same. 10 bolts are junk :nod:

[JSPERFORMANCE]

The 60 has been out for years. Original production dana 60s are found in some of the fastest door cars in the world. I am not sure what proof you want but the strange version of this rear is a beefed up variation on the original unit. The s-60s have been installed in some very fast stock style suspension drag radial cars that dip into the low 7 second zone.. You probably havent read about it because these people are too busy actually racing to go on the internet and post about the rear they have in their car.. Like I said you cant go wrong with either one the 60 is maybe 30 lbs heavier at most than the 12 bolt but it is substantially bigger, you can not use a girdle style cover with the 60, it will hit the panhard bar..

[JSPERFORMANCE]

hey thats why we have these types of threads, to get more information out there regarding said topic. im interested in what actually happened to your rear...if you wanna post it up or pm me im always interested in hearing the gory details of destruction :nod:




the 9'' seems to be a good compromise between the two though. i deffinately enjoyed the one i had in the t/a. it was quite stout feeling to say the least and held up to some use enough to shred my driveshaft. im confident that wouldve been a puked 10 bolt if the 9'' wasnt there.




seems no matter which application you get the consensus is the same. 10 bolts are junk :nod:

I am sure there is some video floating around. Blew the "bulletproof" nodular center section int multiple pieces, broke pinion and "bulletproof" billet support as well. Only thing left in the rear that was any good was the spool and axles.. Also whipped the driveshaft around bad enough to put it through the muffler and locked the car where it sat. $2000 later it was back together..

[transmaro93]

ohhh i know that the dana60 rears have been around forever... but its to my knowledge that the strange s60 is the first bolt in application of this rear for 3rd and 4th gen f-bods... thats what i meant by fairly new... maybe ill look back into the 60.... uhhggg im so undecided and i want to know before i send my comp out for a quick tune... which ill probably be doing in a few weeks

[JerzLT1]

i launch on my 12 bolt at 6k on a JSPerformance drag racing clutch (it doesnt slip) without problems, it lived through Ron without problems (that should tell you ALOT) and its an easy swap. ill let you know what i run with it once i get some gears in it but just had the trans fluid changed and there were no metal shavings or anything. if your going to get one get a strange, the torque arm bolts go all the way through the housing rather then using 4 small bolts like the moser housing, my 4 bolts are welded to my torque arm so that they dont wiggle out (its known to happen)

[r0nin89]

My vote would be a 9in just for ease of the third member. Thirdmember rears are really nice to work on and dont need any kits to eliminate c-clips.

Also I kinda speak from a truck perspective here but a d60 isnt too much stronger (stock vrs stock) than an 8.5 10bolt. As said though its apples and oranges when your talking about built to the nines and not.

If ya really want something bullet proof get a 10.5 Corp 14b Full Floater LOL will make the tiny bit of drivetrain loss your comparing amongst those rears seem like nothing.

___________________

On the locker, vs spool, vs posi note.

Coming from someone whos driven with a locker on the street daily in his truck I cant recommend it for a stick vehicle. You have to half clutch around turns other wise the ratcheting will bang.

This is another advantage of the 9in... Setup a third with some DEEP gears and a spool for when your at the track. 8 bolts slide the shafts, unbolt pumpkin, and put in the track pumpkin. All in all its an hour spent for track prep that can make your car much more streetable than trying to find a happy medium.

[transmaro93]

well the 12 bolts from strange an moser id imagine already have c-clip eliminators right? they dont sell them with c-clips do they...

[WildBillyT]

well the 12 bolts from strange an moser id imagine already have c-clip eliminators right? they dont sell them with c-clips do they...

Technically, no. What Moser and Strange sell (IIRC) are 12 bolts with 9" style housing ends on them. Better than c-clip eliminators.

Ronin, how is a Dana 60 and an 8.5" 10 bolt close in strength, factory stock? Why? The ring gear alone is 1.25" bigger in the Dana.

[r0nin89]

Technically, no. What Moser and Strange sell (IIRC) are 12 bolts with 9" style housing ends on them. Better than c-clip eliminators.

Ronin, how is a Dana 60 and an 8.5" 10 bolt close in strength, factory stock? Why? The ring gear alone is 1.25" bigger in the Dana.

Alot of Dana 60 Semi Float rears have terrible necked shafts and bad spline counts. Again I'm talking truck rears, I'm sure none of the aftermarket is like that.

[NastyEllEssWon]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/Jsaul83/Picture042_50.jpg?t=1252831953






9'' ftw

[transmaro93]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/jsaul83/picture042_50.jpg?t=1252831953






9'' ftw

mother of god!!!!!!!!

[r0nin89]

What the hell is that next to?! Thats not a 7.5 is it?

[NastyEllEssWon]

What the hell is that next to?! Thats not a 7.5 is it?




yes sir thats a comparison of the 9'' to the stock 7.5''

[r0nin89]

yes sir thats a comparison of the 9'' to the stock 7.5''

Wow I cant imagine what my 10.5 in my truck looks like next to a 7.5

[S.J.SLEEPER]

my moser 12bolt has c-clip eliminators.
if was to purchase another rear I would go with the strange s60/s90

[JSPERFORMANCE]

my moser 12bolt has c-clip eliminators.

Doubt it, most all aftermarket rears for these cars come with the 9" style axle bearings. Still no c-clips but no garbage eliminator blocks..

What is a s90?

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Doubt it, most all aftermarket rears for these cars come with the 9" style axle bearings. Still no c-clips but no garbage eliminator blocks..

What is a s90?


100% my moser 12bolt has cclip eliminators. (1.5 -2" square block of aluminum w/ bearings behind wheel hub) pull 4 bolts out and axle comes out with the block.

as for s90 i wrote s60/s90 cause i wasn't sure if the # was 60 or 90 that they used for the model of strange rear

here is pic

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Wow, you sure do.. Is that rear extremely old or maybe was originally special ordered as a c-clip rear? even the flanges look wierd.. I dont know if you can even order a rear with eliminators anymore. Too problematic..

[S.J.SLEEPER]

ordered it from moser direct, for use with wilwood rear disk brake kit. came with cclip elim. straight from them. i didn't add them on or change axles, as you see it is how i got it. and yes bought a couple years ago (4-5)

wasn't tryin to 1up you or anything, just showing what i got. they probly don't build that way anymore,
never had any problems, launched @ 4500-4800 and been 9.43 @ 141.50mph on that rear.
bolts backin out of the rear for torquearm was a bit of a hassle, but otherwise did me no wrong

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Thats wierd.. When we have a Strange rear made for Wilwood brakes it still comes with the modified 9" flanges.. Maybe Moser dosent have a 9"flange for the wilwood pattern.

[transmaro93]

hmmm... what are your thoughts on eaton posi's.... i never really liked the design but its all that is really offered in the 12botls unless i went with moser... what are you thoughts on them.... i need that posi additive too for them right seeing as they use clutch discs in there...

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Eaton is a very good limited slip unit. Strange also has thier own that really works well.

[WildBillyT]

hmmm... what are your thoughts on eaton posi's.... i never really liked the design but its all that is really offered in the 12botls unless i went with moser... what are you thoughts on them.... i need that posi additive too for them right seeing as they use clutch discs in there...

The Eaton is a good unit. Tunable and rebuildable as well.

[98tadriver]

well i heard on the internetz you can build a 10bolt to be stronger than a 9" :lol: oh and as i recall, i was at atco the night josh (JSperformance) blew up his 9". he was pretty amped on that

[transmaro93]

yea bought a used 12 bolt off an ls1 car... so i have to change a few small things and then i can throw it on after the motor is back in...

[sweetbmxrider]

like what? you can use the brakes. i guess you have to finagle an e-brake cable. not using the abs.

[transmaro93]

rear brakes on ls1's are different.... they have a drum e-brake setup rather than the lt1 style caliper that incorperates the e-brake as part of the caliper... so i have to change the backing plates... and im going to try to knock the reluctor rings off the axels also while i have them out becuase they are going to make changing wheel studs a nightmare...

[Formula_Ltx]

make sure the axle lenth is the same, dont need tires stcking out

[transmaro93]

im pretty sure ls1 and lt1 axels are the same lengths... they just use diff brake setups....

[Formula_Ltx]

wasn't sure. I know ls1 abs ring was on axle. just a good thing to double check lol

[BarneyMobile]

wasn't sure. I know ls1 abs ring was on axle. just a good thing to double check lol
The abs exciter ring in only on the axle for 4 channel abs/tcs cars. The 3 channel cars had the exciter ring inside the housing. It wasnt LS1 specific. If you have and LS1 car without traction control then your rear wont have the rings on the axle ends.

[sweetbmxrider]

rear brakes on ls1's are different.... they have a drum e-brake setup rather than the lt1 style caliper that incorperates the e-brake as part of the caliper... so i have to change the backing plates... and im going to try to knock the reluctor rings off the axels also while i have them out becuase they are going to make changing wheel studs a nightmare...

people swap to ls1 rear brakes all the time, check it out. might be worth it i dono!

[Formula_Ltx]

The abs exciter ring in only on the axle for 4 channel abs/tcs cars. The 3 channel cars had the exciter ring inside the housing. It wasnt LS1 specific. If you have and LS1 car without traction control then your rear wont have the rings on the axle ends.

Thanks always good to learn something new!!

[transmaro93]

people swap to ls1 rear brakes all the time, check it out. might be worth it i dono!

no thanks... im pretty sure the ls1 rear brakes are larger and dont clear drag wheels as good... plus its just more money that id have to spend for no reason when the lt1 brakes stop the car fine... i have to reseal the case anyway becuase its leaking so i have to open it... if it had came with the complete brakes i would have used to them... but im not going out of my way to get them...

[sweetbmxrider]

oh oh nevermind. i thought they were on there and you were swappin cause the e brake didn't hook up the same. nevermind then 8-)

[spina74]

I'm in the same boat here, I'm stuck between a 12 bolt and a ford 9". I like the 12 bolt because it is a direct swap, but its a pain in the ass to swap gears. The reason I like the ford 9" is because of swapping gears is easy. Now I was told I can buy 2 center pieces for a 9" and just interchange them for street driving or racing. I'm not sure if this is true, but does anyone know somebody who can custom fab up a 9" if I happen to find one?

[JerzLT1]

I'm in the same boat here, I'm stuck between a 12 bolt and a ford 9". I like the 12 bolt because it is a direct swap, but its a pain in the ass to swap gears. The reason I like the ford 9" is because of swapping gears is easy. Now I was told I can buy 2 center pieces for a 9" and just interchange them for street driving or racing. I'm not sure if this is true, but does anyone know somebody who can custom fab up a 9" if I happen to find one?

your out of your mind if you consider swapping a center section just to go race. i dont like swapping tires so i just street drive on my slicks. 12 bolt or 9" will both handle anything a street car can throw at it. if you throw enough power at either one they will break

[spina74]

HA, I only planned to swap them if I was going balls to the wall at the track, not everytime...I like doing work...but not that much lol. I guess I should just get a 12 bolt, and 3.73's? Also, has anyone came out with a 3 channel 12 bolt?

[transmaro93]

any rear you get is going to have to be 82-02 fbody specific... with the panhard and lca brackets.. so either way its a custom fabbed rear... and they make both 9 inches and 12 bolts like this.... strange and moser sells both... it is alot of work and also expensive to have 2 center sections though... most costly part on the 9 inch so keep that in mind... they are easier to work on though...there is rear end guys out there that can fab a rear up for you... but by the time you get done id think youd be over the price of a new one from strange or moser...

[JSPERFORMANCE]

We can get you a 12 bolt with three channel ABS and whatever gear, differential, and brake combination you prefer..

[JerzLT1]

i would go with Strange over Moser because the Torque arm bolts go all the way through the Strange where the Moser uses 4 small bolts. my Torque arm bolts are tack welded so that they dont back out (i have a moser and its a common issue)

[NJ Torque]

Where can I get those bolts from, Josh?

[69BirdX]

Hey did an article In car craft about all three comparing power weight and strenght.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Where can I get those bolts from, Josh?

What bolts?

[B4C]

Where can I get those bolts from, Josh?

Torque arm bolts for a moser 12 bolt?? Auto parts store they were wither 1/2" 16 or 1/2" 13 I cant remember grade 8, I put a chit load of red locktite on mine and 1Quickbird saftey wired his

[1QWIKBIRD]

i would go with Strange over Moser because the Torque arm bolts go all the way through the Strange where the Moser uses 4 small bolts. my Torque arm bolts are tack welded so that they dont back out (i have a moser and its a common issue)

Go here for pics of what what happens when the bolts on the moser 12-bolt loosen up.....scroll to the bottom

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2446297/7

Surely I'll take some of the blame for not paying close enough attention to the noises coming from the rear. I thought it was a rod end getting sloppy, but nope. Nothing a heli-coil, some red loc-tite and saftey wire can't handle. Surely there are better designs available.

Spohn was pretty good about getting me a new mounting bracket for the TA, which was nice to see. I think they only charged me $45-50? I was thinking it was going to be a lot worse.

Other than this issue the rear has been flawless.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Torque arm bolts for a moser 12 bolt?? Auto parts store they were wither 1/2" 16 or 1/2" 13 I cant remember grade 8, I put a chit load of red locktite on mine and 1Quickbird saftey wired his

the bolts are 1/2-13 and about 1-1/2" UHL

[spina74]

What gears would you guys suggest for me, 3.73's 4.10 or 4.11's. I want something so I can launch hard at the track, but I want to take some trips down the shore with the car and I usually like to do 70-80 mph, and I don't want to burn a whole tank of gas going down since my rpms will be higher.

[transmaro93]

4.10's 4.11's should be good for a 6speed... you might not be ass good as the 342 but it will be comfortable to drive on the highway... if you drive the highway everyday i would go with 373's but you wont get that launch your looking for with those... im running 411's in mine altough i havent driven it yet... i had 410s in my old rear and they were great but i was taking weekly trips back and forth to Pennsylvania (2hrs one way) and they were too much for that so i went back to stock... but if you dont drive the highway everyday id go 4.10 or 4.11

[Blackbirdws6]

Missed this thread and I'm not sure if you've made your decision yet. I did make it to the track a couple times in the past few months and I would say the S60 held up well. Sure its probably overkill for my current power level but I do have bigger plans in the future. Plus I planned on racing my heavy vert the way it sits so a little overkill couldn't hurt.

I launched the car at over 5k numerous times and the rear is still as silent as the day it was installed. Speaking of the install on a LT1, everything was a direct bolt-in and it comes with the LT1 backing plates ready to rock. The only thing which was a slight PITA was swapping the brake lines. We needed to gingerly straighten out a few sections which wasn't bad but the only delayed portion of the install.

Strength, price and ease of the install all swayed me towards the S60. Just my opinion and experience.