Looking at . . .

[FlyingDutchman]

. . . doing headers although im not sure what or who to go with :| i saw a website once and i cant find it where people posted their gains from mods . . . at the moment im looking at a set of pacesetter longtubes, but will i see/feel significant gains?

right now its stock manifolds w/ magnaflow catback on '97 lt1

any advice/recommendations would be sweet ! 8-)

[deadtrend1]

You keeping AIR? Keeping the cats? you would need to get a cutsom y made with cats, or modify the pacesetter y to put cats in it. If you dont keep them, then it will all need to be tuned out. Which it would be smart to tune if you're putting headers on anyways.

if you do go with pacesetters. I suggest that you buy the uncoated ones and send them to www.jet-hot.com (http://www.jet-hot.com) because pacesetters coating is absolute crap.

[LTb1ow]

You would not need cats, just need to have the PCM tuned for no rear 02s, no EGR, and no AIR. That would also rely on you having a lax inspector or going to a private shop.

Not sure on whether pacesetters are bad in general, mine seem to be holding up just fine although I would bet that the Jet hot is a much better armor coating.

You will want to look into replacing the motor mounts, spark plugs and making/buying an over the valve cover wire set. Also need EGR block off plates if you plan on deleting that.

[deadtrend1]

You would not need cats, just need to have the PCM tuned for no rear 02s, no EGR, and no AIR. That would also rely on you having a lax inspector or going to a private shop. ...

and of course non of here condone the removal of the emission componets, for that is bad for planet earth. Mmm..kay!

[LTb1ow]

Well, go for a set of mids with a nice high flow cat. On a stock engine, I doubt there will be much of a power difference between LTs and mids.

Silly hippies... :)

[FlyingDutchman]

hmm for now i was just gonna leave AIR/EGR an delete it later, unless that makes a difference down the road... probably grab a set of high flow cats and tune out the rear O2s

the whole motor was rebuilt about 1 1/2 ago (about 10k miles) so i think spark plugs and seals are all good ...

matt, did you buy the coated pacesetters or painted?

[LTb1ow]

Coated, but I don't really put many miles on my car and its not a winter car.

Sounds like a good plan, you can weld in the cats in the pacesetter Y and they will fit. I gotta find the picture of the placement.

[FlyingDutchman]

is it possible to apply a more durable paint over the pacesetter paint to last longer? idk if i want SS or black painted ...

and as far as cats are concerned, any in particular i should look at? they seem pretty expensive and i really dont want to pay more than i have to for cats

[LTb1ow]

Well you basically have the choice of

a) Stainless
b) Pacesetter coated
c) jet hot coated pacesetters later on.

I would not bother with buying painted headers if you do not plan on having them coated immediately. I bought magnaflow 3" high flow cats a while back for 100 bucks a pop. Not bad, they were small too.

[deadtrend1]

Well you basically have the choice of

a) Stainless
b) Pacesetter coated
c) jet hot coated pacesetters later on.

I would not bother with buying painted headers if you do not plan on having them coated immediately. I bought magnaflow 3" high flow cats a while back for 100 bucks a pop. Not bad, they were small too.

order directly through a carsound dealer and they are cheaper. I got mine for 79.00 each

[FlyingDutchman]

order directly through a carsound dealer and they are cheaper. I got mine for 79.00 each

ooh thanks yea they run around 81$ each which is not bad ...

is 100$ worth it for pacesetter's coating? and whats the difference between paint and their coating besides cost and appearence?

[deadtrend1]

ooh thanks yea they run around 81$ each which is not bad ...

is 100$ worth it for pacesetter's coating? and whats the difference between paint and their coating besides cost and appearence?

coating lasts longer then paint to prevent rust

[FlyingDutchman]

coating lasts longer then paint to prevent rust

a high temp paint such as VHT (rated at 1500*) wouldnt be the same?

[FlyingDutchman]

ahh scratch that last idea, too much work to coat them (prepping/painting/curing)

probably invest in the coated headers

[sweetbmxrider]

i would look into jet hot too. the pacesetter coating is crap. look at my mids in the forsale section. about 5k on them and not even 6 months and that **** happened!

you should really plan out your emissions now though, whether or not you want to be legal. seeing as you can buy them with or with out emissions fittings and plugging them down the road just looks silly. plus the **** is usually such a pain coming apart it ends up breaking so thats why most people !emissions :)

as for cats its almost not worth it since they aren't in factory location they technically don't pass.

if you want to stay legal and make better power than stock, you should do a set of mids like i have for sale. all the factory emissions fittings along with cat(s) in the stock location. State Legal Performance 8-)

no matter what you do, just tune it for what was done! replace the o2's while you are at it and don't forget extensions for the longtubes!

[deadtrend1]

ahh scratch that last idea, too much work to coat them (prepping/painting/curing)

probably invest in the coated headers

doing it right the first time is probably the best idea. That way you wont have to worry about them down the road. (no pun intended)

[FlyingDutchman]

i would look into jet hot too. the pacesetter coating is crap. look at my mids in the forsale section. about 5k on them and not even 6 months and that **** happened!

you should really plan out your emissions now though, whether or not you want to be legal. seeing as you can buy them with or with out emissions fittings and plugging them down the road just looks silly. plus the **** is usually such a pain coming apart it ends up breaking so thats why most people !emissions :)

as for cats its almost not worth it since they aren't in factory location they technically don't pass.

if you want to stay legal and make better power than stock, you should do a set of mids like i have for sale. all the factory emissions fittings along with cat(s) in the stock location. State Legal Performance 8-)

no matter what you do, just tune it for what was done! replace the o2's while you are at it and don't forget extensions for the longtubes!

hmmmmmmmm mid lengths vs long tubes . . . power difference?

not really worried about what it looks if i !AIR !EGR as im not aiming for show

[sweetbmxrider]

no i mean its silly to buy the ones with fittings then weld in bolts down the road.

there is a difference in power between the two. both are better than stock for sure.

[FlyingDutchman]

- leanin towards pacesetter longtubes, they seem to be a bang for the buck !
- dont know about cats, if longtubes wont pass w/ cats then ill go private inspection . . .
- still dont know whether to !AIR !EGR no reason to or not to

[LTb1ow]

Personally, with longtubes, I see no reason to keep either AIR or EGR. Maybe EGR, but its a hassle.

You don't get a sniff test, so the odds of you passing are high.

[sweetbmxrider]

egr is no longer tested on pre obdII cars

yours, needs to be tuned out

[KirkEvil]

pacesetters are bang for buck, but personally I will never go coated again. My pacesetters are ready to fall apart. Go stainless, LPP stainless headers (http://lpparts.com/store/index.htmlhttp://lpparts.com/store/index.html) have a great rep in the lsx community, not sure about lt1's, and they are reasonably priced.

Delete the air/egr. You will end up getting rid of them in the future, and doing it now will make the install much easier. You will throw a code for deleting the air/egr, but you can still drive the car with the codes without hurting anything. If you get rid of cats then you will need a tune or o2 sims to delete those codes.

Definitely do motor mounts at the same time and consider aftermarket header bolts.

[LTb1ow]

AFAIK, LPP is still back ordered on LT1 cars.

[KirkEvil]

AFAIK, LPP is still back ordered on LT1 cars.

well that sucks. I thought they were just sold out of ls headers

[sweetbmxrider]

ebay has knock offs at a lower grade stainless

[FlyingDutchman]

yea just checked they are redesigning a new batch ... oh well im lookin to do this around december so ive got some time yet

[LTb1ow]

Do you have a pic of your pacesetters?

Its a huge difference between mine and his.

[sweetbmxrider]

who me?

[LTb1ow]

nah, Kirk. His are pretty nasty looking.

[KirkEvil]

No I dont have a pic on hand...rusty headers are not something I am proud of Haha. They were installed Aug 08, and now there is no coating left on the bottom 12 inches of pipe. Im kind of pissed about it considering I bought them brand new.

[LTb1ow]

Yea, and mine were installed before yours too... LOL

[FlyingDutchman]

pic of yours matt?

[LTb1ow]

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg190/sweetbmxrider/IMG_5648re.jpg?t=1245031008

Not to horrible, but eh. Mine are about a year or so old.

[sweetbmxrider]

you can see like a line where it changes from brown to silver :lol:

[gonzo4886]

If I were you I would find a used pair of kook’s headers and y-pipe with cats. It will be a couple of hundred more for used kooks over new pacesetters but it will be worth it. And there is a definite difference in seat of the pants power between mid and long tubes. Don't even bother with anything but longtubes.

[Pampered-Z]

I had different headers on my car as it evolved and all were coated and all rusted somewhat. I currently have the Jethot Longtubes and even though I was very carefully to not scratch them and cleaned them before the initial startup and heat cycles they still rusted slightly around the welds at the collectors. I use Eastwood Ceramic header paint which does a great job of preventing the rust from spreading. The idea with Jethot coating is that they coat inside and out, that helps keep the heat inside the header and will (should) extend the life of the header. Some companies only coat the outside, so the headers simply rust from the inside out. But honestly, almost any coating is going to rust a bit. There is(was) a company that did header coating, it cost a small fortune but it held up. I'll have to go look for their name.

If your plan is to keep the engine mostly stock and driven often, I would say go with shorties, just because they will support mild mods and you don't have the ground clearance issues and such. Unless your trying to get every HP you can, the go longtubes.

As far as what gains, it really varies on the type of header and what you do behind them. Such as cats and Y-pipe. A good set of shorties, such as MAC will give you a far gain, probably 15-25HP. Where longtubes will give you 20-35HP. But all cars are different.

[Blacdout96]

ahh scratch that last idea, too much work to coat them (prepping/painting/curing)

probably invest in the coated headers

I did that, just need to have a little patience with doing all that, and it came out very well.

[FlyingDutchman]

I did that, just need to have a little patience with doing all that, and it came out very well.

how did you cure it? thats the problem i might encounter

[Blacdout96]

Well I wantedto use my house stove, but after much debating, and understanding the fumes would be lethal lol, they have an on-car curing method to follow, it's right on the can.

[FlyingDutchman]

Well I wantedto use my house stove, but after much debating, and understanding the fumes would be lethal lol, they have an on-car curing method to follow, it's right on the can.

:idea: Blacdout96, you sir, are genious ! :idea:

did you sand down right to bare metal ? or did you cover a pre-existing coating ?

[Blacdout96]

the paintthat they are shipped in is only good for that, being shipped, it has no temperature strength, thats why you see alot of people with rusty headers, they thought they were already painted, but it burns right off.

I got a cheap small sand blaster, and blasted all the paint off to the bare metal. rough up the surface a little if you want with like 180-220 grit sandpaper so the paint has somethign to hold onto. and when your done doing that, hit it with somethign that wont leave a residue like brake clean to get any metal leftover from the sanding. then paintaway and cure and your set.

[FlyingDutchman]

the paintthat they are shipped in is only good for that, being shipped, it has no temperature strength, thats why you see alot of people with rusty headers, they thought they were already painted, but it burns right off.

I got a cheap small sand blaster, and blasted all the paint off to the bare metal. rough up the surface a little if you want with like 180-220 grit sandpaper so the paint has somethign to hold onto. and when your done doing that, hit it with somethign that wont leave a residue like brake clean to get any metal leftover from the sanding. then paintaway and cure and your set.

sounds like a plan got any pics of yours?

[Blacdout96]

I do. This is when I was sandblasting them. the packign paint comes off quite easily.


http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/Balcdout96/headers003.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/Balcdout96/headers002.jpg



And here's how they looked after I was done. I wrapped them in header wrap, so you cant see the quality, but even thought they werte covered up but the wrap, the outcome of them was fantastic after I was finished painting them.



http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/Balcdout96/Camaroupgrades009.jpg

[FlyingDutchman]

hmm that actually did turn out real nice !

also are locking header bolts really worth it? or would Loc-tite do the trick?

[Blacdout96]

locking header bolts ftw, that way when/ if you need to take them off, they'll come out with ease.

[FlyingDutchman]

locking header bolts ftw, that way when/ if you need to take them off, they'll come out with ease.

you make a valid point, what should i be looking for? ws6store has "stage 8 locking header bolts" both in stainless and lengths of 3/4" or 1" . . .

[LTb1ow]

I have been used the bolts that came with my pacesetters with no problems at all.

[FlyingDutchman]

I have been used the bolts that came with my pacesetters with no problems at all.

any kinda loc-tite or just bolts?

[LTb1ow]

Just bolts.

No problems with the gaskets either. Just have to watch the bolts for the first week or so, and then they should be good to go.

[Tru2Chevy]

I currently have the Jethot Longtubes and even though I was very carefully to not scratch them and cleaned them before the initial startup and heat cycles they still rusted slightly around the welds at the collectors.

The nice thing about Jet Hot is they warranty their coating. If your headers start to rust, you can ship them back to Jet Hot and they will re-coat them for free. All you pay is shipping.

- Justin

[FlyingDutchman]

I was told my car would start like crap in the cold if i !AIR !EGR with longtubes... is that true? not that it would change my mind on what i do anyway

Oo and can anybody tell me what i would need for sand blasting (besides sand) like what kinda gun... something fairly cheap that can be used with a 120psi air compressor... containment area?? yea any advice is nice

must also add you guys are quite helpful :mrgreen:

[Blacdout96]

if you want to shotcut the sandblasting, go pick up some duplicolor paint remover, and after all the paints off, spray them clean with brake clean, save ya a ton of time and money. I bought my sandblaster for other stuff, but I did it cause I already had the tool to do it.

[LTb1ow]

I was told my car would start like crap in the cold if i !AIR !EGR with longtubes... is that true? not that it would change my mind on what i do anyway

Oo and can anybody tell me what i would need for sand blasting (besides sand) like what kinda gun... something fairly cheap that can be used with a 120psi air compressor... containment area?? yea any advice is nice

must also add you guys are quite helpful :mrgreen:

Erm?

Never heard that one before, mine starts right up all the time.

[transmaro93]

just FYI... go with a copper style gasket... even if you have to buy it seperately... i cant tellyou have many paper gaskets have burned through on me over the years... i had copper style on my mac-mids and never had a problem for 3 years... ALSO.... for anyone looking for some trick header bolts.... i just bought these S/S header bolts from a company called "totally stainless".... they are arp bolts 1" in length and they have a dual washer setup and the washer that mates to the header is splined or barbed to dig into the header and the second washer that mates to the bolt head and the first washer has a "ratchet" style system so it locks into that first washer... my machine shop turned me on to them and said they never had a problem with them when they used those bolts....and they will look alot nicer than having those stupid lock rings on the stage 8's... just some food for though...

[LTb1ow]

Never had a single prob with my current pacesetter supplied gaskets and hardware. ;)

[sweetbmxrider]

like you would be able to tell if you had an exhaust leak :rofl:

so wait, they dig into the primaries?

[FlyingDutchman]

Now if i !AIR !EGR, would i need to tune in for the headers? or just delete the emissions codes?

[deadtrend1]

Now if i !AIR !EGR, would i need to tune in for the headers? or just delete the emissions codes?

if you have someone going in to tune out the codes, might as well have them tune for the headers

[transmaro93]

like you would be able to tell if you had an exhaust leak :rofl:

so wait, they dig into the primaries?

nahh... they dig into the flange like maybe somthing you would see on a grounding bolt that digs in for goog ground... ill bring one with me next time i see you guys... they are pretty sweet... and cost the same as those split bolts with the setscrew that i think would be useless on lt1's due to the clearance issues.... i got them in 12 point too so they look even cooler... yeaaaaa

p.s. i actually did have a very small leak or what looked like one when i removed my headers... most likely from a loose bolt that i couldnt get to to recheck after installation.... but yea i cant wait to hear gmmg with LT's and my cam.... i get butterflys just thinking about it!

[LTb1ow]

Your car will never run.

[transmaro93]

^^^ apparently yours wont either...

[LTb1ow]

And for the record, header wrap is a great way to kill the life span of your headers.

[deadtrend1]

And for the record, header wrap is a great way to kill the life span of your headers.

keeps that pesky moisture from getting out into the eviroment and rusting everything else

[bobbyn362]

i have pace setters long tubes and high flow cats in the y pipe. fully legal emissions with all o2 sensors functioning. i think its easier to do it right the first time and drive through inspection than to leave the cats out and get nailed i hear thats a pretty hefty fine. if you decide to go with cats and need to know where to place them. let me know and ill send a pic. fyi. im pretty sure high flow cats aren't street legal but it gets you passed the visual

[FlyingDutchman]

if you have pics post em up, i havnt set anything in stone yet

[LTb1ow]

IMO, not worth it. Still illegal no matter how you cut it. And OBDII does not get a sniff test, so there really is no "need" for cats, all you need is a clear systems check and some heatshielding to make it appear as though you have a cat.

[bobbyn362]

IMO, not worth it. Still illegal no matter how you cut it. And OBDII does not get a sniff test, so there really is no "need" for cats, all you need is a clear systems check and some heatshielding to make it appear as though you have a cat.

correct. but when they check the odbII and its running open loop the secondary air and egr will continue to show a not ready status and you are only allowed to have a certian number of not ready status for reinspection. if you go through a privete shop they can usually override one of them but not both. so in order to get a real inspection sticker you really need the rear o2 sensors functioning. and in order to have functioning rear o2's you need to place them behind some type of cats. now there are enough real mechanics on this site so if that is not really the case someone please correct me. i dont mind being wrong would rather know if i am

[sweetbmxrider]

they tune the rear 02's out or put in sims. can also tune pretty much everything else out and pass fine.

the whole visual thing though.....oh and there is a new program in effect with new equipment coming. no more NOx testing, no more egr needed :)

[bobbyn362]

they tune the rear 02's out or put in sims. can also tune pretty much everything else out and pass fine.

the whole visual thing though.....oh and there is a new program in effect with new equipment coming. no more NOx testing, no more egr needed :)

the sims do work but when they are just tuned out it throws the not ready status. i had slp tune my car and thats what they did and i kept failing inspection so finally i had another guy tune it. he turned them back on and i went right through. then i submitted the bill to slp and had them pay for the retune. and they didnt even argue with me about it. and of the codes i was talking about failing for it was secondary air, egr, and evaporation system.

[sweetbmxrider]

the sims do work but when they are just tuned out it throws the not ready status. i had slp tune my car and thats what they did and i kept failing inspection so finally i had another guy tune it. he turned them back on and i went right through. then i submitted the bill to slp and had them pay for the retune. and they didnt even argue with me about it. and of the codes i was talking about failing for it was secondary air, egr, and evaporation system.

weird. i have personally seen cars with rear o2's tuned out pass nj state inspection. slp must have been newbin it up. all of those codes can be tuned out and have the emission monitors read, "ready" :-?

[transmaro93]

iv had sims on my car for a while now.. they worked fine... but ill probably just have them tune the rear o2's out when the time comes...

[bobbyn362]

weird. i have personally seen cars with rear o2's tuned out pass nj state inspection. slp must have been newbin it up. all of those codes can be tuned out and have the emission monitors read, "ready" :-?

Im sorry you are correct. slp had me running open loop and thats why i was getting the not ready stats. i thought i put rear o2's back in but i didnt. just new front ones. i guess its good that its been that long since ive had to work on it that i forgot.

[FlyingDutchman]

probably just gonna !air !egr !cats to make life simple. and full of pollutants.

[bobbyn362]

probably just gonna !air !egr !cats to make life simple. and full of pollutants.

i tried to take pics of the y with out putting the car on a lift but that didnt work to well. so as soon as i get time ill get it on a lift and post some.