first fire 383 lt1 issues.... idleing mostely [Archive] - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

transmaro93

11-21-2009, 07:04 PM

well tried to fire my car today for the first time since the rebuild.... had some trouble getting it going at first but giving it some gas while cranking got her going... but she wont idle very well... after it runs for a few it starts to idle but only at like 500 rpm (pcmforless tune is sopposed to be set around 900) we adjusted the TPS sensor and got it around .65 i think .67 is desired... i mean everything is new on this car as far as engine goes.... its running on ltcc also... but if i hold the idle with the throttle it holds... runs a little rough but its my first cammed car so this might be normal.... anybody have any imput on the subject... could it just be the pcm has to learn and run for a while... is there somthing else that im not doing... thanks for any help... ask questions is needed...

LTb1ow

11-21-2009, 07:07 PM

First off, I want to say my car started on first crank. ;)

Start on basics, you have fuel, air and spark? Did you adjust rockers or did the shop?

deadtrend1

11-21-2009, 07:08 PM

double check you got the firing order with the LTCC right? I'm not sure how it works cause I never messed with it.

Just go over all the simple stuff very well, first

transmaro93

11-21-2009, 07:28 PM

yea i mean its deff getting fuel because you can smell it.... its got spark... i didnt check spark to all wires but it doesnt seem like its missing (hard to tell with the cam)... i have ltcc hooked up good becuase it runs and i hooked the coils up inthe correct locations according to the numbers on the harness... and it was used, and the original owner claimed it worked fine (he went ls1 and sold alot of parts off his car)...its either missfiring... or its some kind of sensor or elec problem... adam and I think maybe the IAC has to be reset... oh and matt... your car doesnt have a 1/4 of the crap done that my car does and everything in this set up is brand new... getting it all to work together may take some time... and they adjust the rockers not I... you know that

HeadlessNorseman

11-21-2009, 07:45 PM

JL8Jeff

11-21-2009, 07:54 PM

Watch it run in the dark and maybe you'll see a spark jumping off a cylinder somewhere. It could be running on 7 cylinders if something like a spark plug was damaged or cracked during installation. Recheck all your wire connections, it sounds similar to the problem I was just having with my SS. If the coolant sensor is sending bad information the computer will really struggle to keep it running. Maybe a bad ground somehwhere as well. Did you reconnect all the ground straps?

Featherburner

11-21-2009, 07:58 PM

Did you do the drill mod on the throttle body?

transmaro93

11-21-2009, 07:59 PM

yea only had one ground "strap" and 99% sure all others are connectected... well funny is first time it fired adam saw a huge arc back by cyl7... it never did it again after that... i said was a backfire or flame out of the open headers he said no deff arc... but im gonna check from good spark to every plug tomarrow and see what i come up with... it started getting cold out and to late to start it open headers anyway... i replaced both temp sensors... what drill mod?? people that drill into the blades of the body?? dont think i wanna try that just yet hahah... its gotta be a problem somehwere else....

LTb1ow

11-21-2009, 11:45 PM

I know you prob don't wanna hear this... but any chance you could swap on a coil and regular wires just to verify its not the LTCC?

Blackbirdws6

11-22-2009, 07:34 AM

What is your fuel pressure set at? Im sure you have a adjustable regulator but the car may be getting too much or little fuel. Pull a couple plugs to see how they look/smell. Check for good connections with your spark plug wires. Spark gap OK? Fuel filter also good?

Just a few ideas to start with.

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 08:24 AM

im still on stock FPR... i didnt see any reason to go with an adjustable... im gonna verify spark to all plugs first then maybe i will pull a few to see what they look like... gap should be set at 35... i didnt set them they wanted to put plugs in just to cover up the holes... and filter is what was in the car, but it didnt need to be replaced yet... but i planned on replacing that when i did the pump... i wonder if its becuase im on stock fuel pump? i thought it would be able to at least idle on that... ohh and matt technically i could put regular wires on it because the opti is still there but then id have to buy more wires and reconnect the icm and coil and stuff... worst case scenerio i do that before i pull the opti to see if it was installed correctly...

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 08:34 AM

anybody want to chime in on this... i have o2 sims in the rear o2 harness... but the pcm was tuned for no cats... maybe the tune plus the o2 sims are leaning the system out??

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 10:07 AM

Rear 02s should only be for code throwing, AFAIK no PCM corrections are made off of them.

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 10:29 AM

^^ got ya... thanks... starts right up now... but doesnt idle well... and i smell an awful lot of fuel... and dont think the evap is purging... may hav ea dead cyl... going to check for spark now... maybe a coil is bad or somthing...checked all groudns including coil grounds...

sweetbmxrider

11-22-2009, 11:07 AM

rear o2's are only to watch for the cat to be working. pulling plugs is a good idea.

couple things i noticed is that it runs pretty good in the upper rpms and reading the data stream, it said the desired idle was 3188?

also, with the 58mm throttle body, does the IAC valve have to be reset?

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 11:17 AM

i did the iac reset and it didnt do much... i just got it to idle outside around 750 for a while... but then dropped to 500 and eventually died... anybody think the gas can be bad... last fresh gas to be added was in july of this year... i put a bottle of dry gas in before i tried to start it... i dont know enough about gas to say if its bad or not... if so ill pull the line and hotwire the pump to drain it... i have spark to all cyl so ltcc is working... hey matt where is that fuel pump hot lead that you were using as a temp fix??

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 11:33 AM

there is a little single wire connector poking out the harness only like and inch of wire showing... its a red 14 gauge (id say) wire... its comming out of the harness back by the pcm... is that the fuel pump hot lead... can i just connect that to a battery and let her rip into a bucket??

sweetbmxrider

11-22-2009, 11:58 AM

on matts, it was a single small gray wire by the pcm tucked in the loom some. its just forcing the relay closed.

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 12:02 PM

yea i have a little connecter there... its saying in my haynes manual that off the relay there is a red wire for "fuel prime lead" im guessing thats it.. no? and i can just hook that strait up to 12v source right because the pump has a fuse in it already no? or you think i should just get 5 gallons of new stuff and dump it inthere... keep in mind i still have to drop my tank..

Featherburner

11-22-2009, 12:13 PM

what drill mod?? people that drill into the blades of the body?? dont think i wanna try that just yet hahah... its gotta be a problem somehwere else....No, I'm not talking about drilling in the blades. I'm talking about this...
http://members.cox.net/chipsbyal/page/idle/index.html
http://members.cox.net/chipsbyal/page/idle/tbi.htm

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 12:21 PM

hmm interesting... this is the first im hearing about this... deff somthing to consider... im not sure what mine looks like...

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 12:51 PM

Could be gas, but if it is running smoothly (is it?) at higher rpms then I don't think thats your problem.

I would def make sure all the **** you added to that poor engine to make your life a nightmare works. All the coils work, etc etc.

And if you have the hot wire kit hooked up, just skip the stock relay and switch on the hotwire relay yourself. Same end result.

Did you throw on the intake? Sure of no vacuum leaks etc?

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 12:51 PM

ok iv decided im going to scrap it for today... (at least it sorta runs haha).... im going to drain the gas tomorrow after work and fill it up and try again on Tuesday...all weather pending... still looking for an answer on that fuel lead though... i might just jump it and cross my fingers ahah.... ohh and adam.... i didnt have any blown fuses.... i think that lsd that you took before headen over my way started kicking in during first fire.... hahah

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 12:53 PM

yea im pretty sure no vacuum leaks but ill check those again.... it runs somewhat smoother at like 2000+ but still not asmuch as i think it should... again first cammed car so its all new to me..

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 12:57 PM

Yea when I started mine on open headers the cam shone through pretty well. Sounded like it wanted to die every time.

Also, when I did mine, I had removed AIR/EGR and had an open 1/4 plug on the intake that was hidden. Drove me crazy cause the car would wanna die at idle, and then I found it.

Just be dead certain its not something stupid. And I know you don't wanna hear it... but too tight rockers will cause hard starts and crappy idling... may wanna check that. And yea that is just forcing the stock fuel pump relay to switch on, no big deal.

EVAP should not affect your idle I would think.

S.J.SLEEPER

11-22-2009, 01:31 PM

lt1 ecm's don't like big cams @ all. need to be tuned/prom burnt.

did you check for vacuum leaks?

egr stickin open?

and gas since july? , yes dump it. the gas that we have had for the past 2 or 3 years sucks. it drops about 4 points in octane overnite if left open to air. and will cause other issues in small motors (lawnmower,weedwhackrs etc..) you need to dump the fuel add new or add about 5 gal. of 116 cam 2 or vp

deadtrend1

11-22-2009, 01:41 PM

its tuned already

... it starts to idle but only at like 500 rpm (pcmforless tune is sopposed to be set around 900) ...

Czop418

11-22-2009, 02:40 PM

do you have a check engine light ? Cause I had a similar problem and it was a bad knock sensor. And if your running roller rockers and dont have a lt4 knock module it'll retard your timing and make your car run like poop.

S.J.SLEEPER

11-22-2009, 03:31 PM

i would set valve lash around 24thsds

sweetbmxrider

11-22-2009, 03:33 PM

knock sensor is disabled and no check engine light. it seems like its an issue with idle control or tune to me but i only saw it for a couple minutes.

draining the gas wouldn't hurt. maybe get rubber caps for the vacuum ports? i think you had tape on one? haha

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 03:35 PM

i would set valve lash around 24thsds

This is no SR monster. Or at least I think its not... :rofl:

Should be between 3/4 and 1/2 turn past zero lash.

S.J.SLEEPER

11-22-2009, 03:39 PM

H.R. FTL

you should not got by the turn method. you should measure with a dial indicator the amount of travel fully compressed then split the #. that would be the (GM) amount of lash desired. usaully around 100-150thsnds i believe.

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 03:57 PM

yea HR cam... the tape was temporary onthe vacuum port... ill go get a bolt to stick in there tomorrow so thats done... only place it would have a vacuum leak is egr ports that are blocked off but the old gaskets were no good so i used some rtv... maybe they arent sealing good enough... i know what your saying matt about checking stupid things but i already did and got shocked a good couple times from checking for spark hahah... i got a long weekend comming up to screw with it... but for htis week ill do the gas and close up that one vacuum port... if its bad gas adam that belt is free hahahaha oh and matt you said yours ran like poop without any exhaust on it?? after you added some back pressure it ran better? becuase thats somthing else i could try too but then i need that pipe expander from you adam haha and does anybody know the thread pitch and size on stock o2 sensors for lt1... i have to get some plugs off ebay or somthing

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 03:59 PM

Well lemme know, I'll swing by and stand ten feet away from your car and throw ideas at you. ;)

S.J.SLEEPER

11-22-2009, 04:05 PM

just throw a bad o2 in it and cut off the wire.
or they make o2 plugs. shore motorsports might have them,
i can check on thread pitch later.
i beleive its pipe thread, so you should be able to get brass plug at hardware store.
i'll let you know

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 04:07 PM

I had mine setup with just an ORY for a while. Ran fine though. I don't think thats your issue. Other than you getting deafened by it trying to diagnose.

S.J.SLEEPER

11-22-2009, 04:10 PM

1/2 npt

JL8Jeff

11-22-2009, 04:29 PM

Did you try hooking a timing light to each wire to verify spark on each cylinder coming from the coils at least? When I did the headers on my 2000 SS it started up and idled a little rough and smoothed out when I revved it. I put it in gear and it shook like crazy. I had forgotten to put the #8 plug wire on the plug! I remember waiting so it wouldn't get in the way of tightening the header bolts. But with the cam it probably makes it tougher to tell. If you pull the plugs you might find one that is covered in fuel.

sweetbmxrider

11-22-2009, 05:07 PM

yeah did you ever pull plugs? it seemed like it was running very rich but i wasn't certain. also, the data stream had an a/f reading, is that even possible?

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 05:12 PM

i know the plug wires are on i checked them like 100 times but it seems like they arent... i bought 1/2 inch pipe thread plugs and they didtn fit im pretty sure the thread is fine metric... no i didnt pull the plugs... im gonna do the gas thing first.... then if that doesnt work ill pull them

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 05:16 PM

Random, but how is plug access with those headers?

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 05:18 PM

not to bad im pretty sure that with ltcc and the headers combined... not counting time to make the wires.... i could do a tune up in way less than an hour...

sweetbmxrider

11-22-2009, 05:19 PM

well if you pull the plugs one at a time and one is soaked in gas, obviously that cylinder isn't firing and fresh gas won't change a thing. i would do it first personally. they do make plugs for o2 bungs though, i bet napa has a listing.

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 05:55 PM

ill check with napa on the fittings... i want to change the gas anyway... but i checked for spark to all the plugs... unless its a faulty plug... at this point thats the only reason it wouldnt fire...

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 05:58 PM

Check your rockers. Please. :|

At the very least, I wanna see their sweet ness. :lol:

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 07:59 PM

not yet... its a little more involved to get my valve covers off with the coil setup... i wanna try a few things first... before i start going internal engine with it... if it comes down to that though ill make sure your there..

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 08:02 PM

Oh you can't avoid me being there. ;)

I'll try and come bug you and Adam this weekend. Maybe show you how an engine is supposed to run...

8-)

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 08:19 PM

id love to see how an engine runs because im not gonna lie im a little dissapointed in mine right now hahah... just another hurtle to over come though... but i may have a break through... pcmforless guy just e-mailed me back and he said running open headers in closed loop will make it run like crap and that i should disconnect the front o2s untill i put some exhuast on... so im still gonna change out the gas tomarrow i think and disconnect those o2s for now and plug that vacuum port and let her rip hopfully it will idle...

sweetbmxrider

11-22-2009, 08:57 PM

yeah but you were in open loop and it wouldn't hold an idle. i mean i dono bout today but thats how it was yesterday on the scanner.

transmaro93

11-22-2009, 09:15 PM

i dont know then... are you sure it was in open loop? i dont know what the difference is if someone wants to school me... i mean its worth a shot... im still gonna change the gas and disconnect the front o2's to see what happens... if neither of those work ill pull the plugs and see what is going on... i know all the coils and wires are good... but smelling the gas almost seems like its dumping to much gas and thats what the guy said it would do with open headers in closed loop.... i donno way to kill my dreams of it idling tomorrow adam... i almost slept a little easier...

LTb1ow

11-22-2009, 09:17 PM

Whats the LSA on the cam?

sweetbmxrider

11-22-2009, 09:26 PM

sorry buddy :D

OPEN LOOP - this is the mode your ECU is in until the coolant temperature and a couple other sensors get to operating values. This is also true when you are at WOT or when throwing codes/ CEL's

CLOSED LOOP - the ecu uses information primarily from the Oxygen Sensor and adjusts fuel delivery and timing to achieve minimum emmisions, better gas mileage and power.

i am certain you were still in open loop but let me know when you are working on it and i'll try getting over with a scanner again.

BigAls87Z28

11-22-2009, 09:26 PM

I got free time Tuesday. I think Ill be playing with the 72 on Tuesday to see if I can get it running.

Im not sure on LT1 cars, but does it take 30 sec or so for it to enter closed loop? Arent they heated, and therefor dont need to stay in open loop for that long?

HeadlessNorseman

11-22-2009, 09:52 PM

My took about 5-10 mins before it realized i cut one of the o2 sensors wires. You can use the "fix the autozone ford pickup" trick that Al knows about haha... start unplugging stuff and see if you can find a problem that way. Like if you unplug one o2 and it runs worse, but unplug the other and it stays the same, then you have a lead to go on...etc. Also are you sure about the fuel pressure/fuel injectors/harness? FP leak down test or just see what the static pressure is?

S.J.SLEEPER

11-22-2009, 11:15 PM

mass air? or speed density?
if its speed density it will run like $%(* if not @ all if map is unplugged/bad

ect will cause it to dump fuel if bad

what plugs you runnin? if it ran too rich on start up/dumpin fuel and your runnin ngk's. then the ngk's are done !!! ngk's don't take well to raw fuel, soon as there wet there fouled and normally will not clean out.

i used to own a motorcyle shop & all i used was ngk's. once they were fouled when tuning a bike , thrown out and new one installed due to their short "wet" life....

ib4200

11-23-2009, 12:37 AM

i remeber him saying somewhere he doesnt have ngk's but im most likely wrong, i wanna say he had autolite for some reason?

Pampered-Z

11-23-2009, 03:41 PM

could be the tune or the rockers, sounds like it could be vac or spark related. Stock fuel pressure should be fine.

Also with the car running spray some carb cleaner around the intake, if the idle changes you've found a vac leak.

What size injectors are you running?

What size throttle body?

If you are running a 58Mm or mono then you are going to need to do the air mod, it's very rare that they don't need it. Also, for either of these TBs you need to drop the TPS voltage down to .57-.62 for the car to idle properly.

How big is the cam? big cams normally need a bit higher idle. My cam is 232/236 @ 114LSA and idle is 900rpms, but sounds like it's at 600!

LTb1ow

11-23-2009, 03:53 PM

236/242 580intake 541exhaust 110lsa

sweetbmxrider

11-23-2009, 04:03 PM

tuner was supposed to set it at 900, 42lbs, and 58mm tb.

i was thinkin bout checkin for vac leak too but it doesn't sound like a big one, like you don't hear that sucking sound.

transmaro93

11-23-2009, 05:17 PM

yea i will check for vac leak when time comes... i am running ngk iridiums... i guess ill pull them to see what they look like... its raining today so im not going out there... hey pampered when you say the "air mod" is this what featherburner suggested also by drilling the IAC port out and blocking the back off...? im also going to pull the pcm out to make sure there is no bent pins or anything when it connects... im still going to drain the gas also...