Why the Mustang succedes BIG TIME!

[edpontiac91]

Where were the bean counters when GM let the Camaro and Firebird die a slow death from 1998-2002 without changing a cigar ligther. Look at the success FORD has enjoyed with all the pony car wanters. Now comes the news that the 2011 Mustang gets a 5.0 412 hp motor. But that's old news. The BOSS 302R IS BACK. With only 50 copies to be made @ $79,000, this is a non-street legal factory race ready model. The cars will be fitted with a roll cage, a race seat, data acquisition, race dampers/springs, a safety harness and Brembo brake package. Plus if your looking for MORE, Ford Racing is offering a Grand-Am Homologation package . This version will have a sealed high-output racing engine and upgraded cooling system, a special 6-speed trans, a seam-welded body, race suspension with Koni dampers/race exhaust and balanced one-piece driveshaft. This baby will set you back $129,000. They are doing things to this car that GM only could dream of. If they had put ANY EFFORT into upgrading the F-Body cars, we might still have our cars today.:nod:

[Frosty]

Special cars like that don't sell the regular, street driven versions. That's more or less Ford saying "look at what we can do". The reason the Fbody didn't outsell the Mustang was solely based on price IMO.

Mid 20's for a GT compared to almost 30 for a loaded WS6...to a non-motor head enthusiast the choice is a no-brainer.

[B4C]

Non street legal car with 129k price tag FTL! If i'm paying that much I wanna drive it. The 2011 mustang gt is gonna be quite a contendor with the camaro

[WildBillyT]

Special cars like that don't sell the regular, street driven versions. That's more or less Ford saying "look at what we can do". The reason the Fbody didn't outsell the Mustang was solely based on price IMO.

Mid 20's for a GT compared to almost 30 for a loaded WS6...to a non-motor head enthusiast the choice is a no-brainer.

*footnote*

Insurance prices don't help either.

[MyFirstZ]

This is why we have the corvette and all the sub models that they have produced

[Knipps]

This is why we have the corvette and all the sub models that they have produced
exactly. all you need is 3 characters. Z R 1.

[1QWIKBIRD]

This is why we have the corvette and all the sub models that they have produced

Yeah but historically the Corvette is in a class unto itself with respect to the Ford product line. Ford doesn't really have anything to go head to head with the Vette.

The Mustang is a pony car and thus is directly compared to the Camaro and Challenger, as it should be. If GM wants to play, they better get it figured out quick or the car will die again. Seems like the newness and excitement of the Camaro is already starting to fade. Its too heavy and too late to the game.

RIP Camaro. What's the over/under on the life of the 5th gen? 3 years? 5 years? I'm still not sure I like the styling. I know I don't like the enormous wheels it rolls on, they look ridiculous. And you revive the iconic Camaro, but don't offer a Z28 package? Way to honor the lineage GM. What were they thinking? GM FTL. They have arguably the greatest mass produced NA V8 engine the world has ever known and still can't get their collective heads out of their backsides long enough to wrap it in something stylish at a reasonable price without turning into a tuna boat. They are called "pony" cars, not "clydesdale" cars.....

I'd look at a lightly used CTS-V or the new 2 door CTS-V, hell even a regular old CTS long before a 5th gen.

stepping down off the soap box.......sorry but i had to vent.

[Frosty]

Can someone please explain to me how GM not building some super-duper non street legal car is going to kill the Camaro. You guys don't think that Ford is going to sell more Mustangs because they built some $100K track car do you? If so I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona really cheap.

BTW, the Z28 is coming back.

[NastyEllEssWon]

http://www.autocity.com/img/actualidad/galerias/Ford_GT_40_13_2.jpg




:drool:

[Frosty]

Drove one....cool cars, just not $200K cool. Can has ZR1 for way less.

[Mike]

Can someone please explain to me how GM not building some super-duper non street legal car is going to kill the Camaro. You guys don't think that Ford is going to sell more Mustangs because they built some $100K track car do you? If so I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona really cheap.

BTW, the Z28 is coming back.


exactly, the low slung super agressive styling of the car that limited the market by making itself hard to drive killed the fourth gen.

competing against itself kill the fourth gen.

having to pay to factories worth of people to build the same thing with different plastics killed the 4th gen (you can say that about all of gm)

it had nothing to do with special models and track cars.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Can someone please explain to me how GM not building some super-duper non street legal car is going to kill the Camaro. You guys don't think that Ford is going to sell more Mustangs because they built some $100K track car do you? If so I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona really cheap.

BTW, the Z28 is coming back.

The super duper Mustangs might not cause a spike in sales. But what it does do is generate buzz. Case in point, this an F-body board and its generating buzz, imagine what it will do on a mustang board?

Second, the factory effort will mean lots of the those parts will probably be available and will bolt onto the street cars. More buzz, more support from the aftermarket, the dealers. Anyone remember Downs Ford? They sold more 5.0/Fox body performance parts than probably anyone else on the East coast or so it seemed. I can't name a Chevy dealership that was on par in that era? There is the NMRA. But no NCRA? I'm thinking the Mustang benefits hugely from having an entire race series named after it. Camaro, no such luck.

The Z28 might be coming back, but as what? A 3800lb slug marketing tool? Or a 3200lb performer worthy of the name? GM can't really do the latter, because if the Z28 were a full on effort, it might step on the Vette's toes, that ain't gonna happen. I can hear the crying from the Vette crowd already. If GM really want to :knock:Ford and :nutkick: the Mustang, they could put together an F-body that would absolutely embarrass the automotive world on a performance versus dollar basis.

Chuck the full-on Z06 (not the supercharged ZR1, that's reserved for the Vette/CTS-V crowd) powerplant into a base optioned 5th gen with factory installed headers/performance exhaust. No power seats, no cruise control, reduce the sound deadening material by 50%, no super duper stereo with 18 speakers and amps, cloth seats, performance shifter, smaller lighter more reasonable wheel/tire combo with a performance spring/shock/sway bar package and I bet it stands with the best of them, so much so that base corvette guys would be :cbrrmike:

And call it the Z28, bring its curbweight in at 32-3300lbs (by whatever means necessary) packed full of 505hp.....Hell you could even keep the AC, the PW, PDL. Think FRC Vette meets 5th gen Camaro......

Oh and keep the price at $32k+/-

GM will never do it....I hope they make a liar out of me.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Drove one....cool cars, just not $200K cool. Can has ZR1 for way less.

Exaclty. Ford doesn't have an answer to the Vette. Even the GT40 was weak in the knees when up against the Vette, especially considering the price point.

[Frosty]

BTW, GM offers a Camaro shell for drag racing applications.

As far as I know there was a full out drag version of the Challenger...we all see how well that helped sell the car.

What exactly are you basing the lack of Camaro buzz on(I have my theories but I'll play nice)? ANY new model we get all kinds of hype then die down...do you want people blowing GM engineers for the next 5yrs? The buzz over the redesigned Mustang died in about a year then it was business as usual.

I'm sorry but factory drag car products DO NOT sell cars...GM could go build a 1200hp, $200K drag car and I(along with the masses) could care less. I'm either going to buy a new Camaro or I'm not....why would some pet project influence my decision to buy or not buy? Anyone that gets influenced by a drag car like that they can't afford is an idiot.

BTW, the days of 3200lbs cars are LONG gone....WAY LONG gone...there are too many safety requirements and bells and whistles the public wants. Sure, go strip out a Z28 to have nothing in it...GM would sell about 10 of them to die hard enthusiasts.

I still don't buy this super Mustang influencing a single street model sale...one has nothing to do with the other IMO. Some people are using this pet project to rip on GM...then they would be the same people whining that GM spends $$ on stupid stuff....this would be a perfect example. GM would see absolutely no benefit to building some stupid drag car.

[Frosty]

Exaclty. Ford doesn't have an answer to the Vette. Even the GT40 was weak in the knees when up against the Vette, especially considering the price point.

Don't tell that to some of the Ford fanboi's. They think this new 5.0 Mustang will give a Z06 a run for its money. :rofl: The car wont' even outperform a base C6 and they think it'll go Z06 hunting.

Silly Ford guys.

[Adam1978]

1qwikbird is right, its the same thing as Porsche's Cayman, it could have been A LOT better, however then it would be in 911 territory, and GM doesnt want a camaro to be faster than their flagship Z06, i think if they ousted that and kept the super-fast ZR1, then they would be much better off, the one thing people want is Cheap Speed, give them that and they'll buy it!

[Mike]

1qwikbird is right, its the same thing as Porsche's Cayman, it could have been A LOT better, however then it would be in 911 territory, and GM doesnt want a camaro to be faster than their flagship Z06, i think if they ousted that and kept the super-fast ZR1, then they would be much better off, the one thing people want is Cheap Speed, give them that and they'll buy it!

they dont want the camaro to be faster than the BASE corvette.

[NastyEllEssWon]

The super duper Mustangs might not cause a spike in sales. But what it does do is generate buzz. Case in point, this an F-body board and its generating buzz, imagine what it will do on a mustang board?

Second, the factory effort will mean lots of the those parts will probably be available and will bolt onto the street cars. More buzz, more support from the aftermarket, the dealers. Anyone remember Downs Ford? They sold more 5.0/Fox body performance parts than probably anyone else on the East coast or so it seemed. I can't name a Chevy dealership that was on par in that era? There is the NMRA. But no NCRA? I'm thinking the Mustang benefits hugely from having an entire race series named after it. Camaro, no such luck.

The Z28 might be coming back, but as what? A 3800lb slug marketing tool? Or a 3200lb performer worthy of the name? GM can't really do the latter, because if the Z28 were a full on effort, it might step on the Vette's toes, that ain't gonna happen. I can hear the crying from the Vette crowd already. If GM really want to :knock:Ford and :nutkick: the Mustang, they could put together an F-body that would absolutely embarrass the automotive world on a performance versus dollar basis.

Chuck the full-on Z06 (not the supercharged ZR1, that's reserved for the Vette/CTS-V crowd) powerplant into a base optioned 5th gen with factory installed headers/performance exhaust. No power seats, no cruise control, reduce the sound deadening material by 50%, no super duper stereo with 18 speakers and amps, cloth seats, performance shifter, smaller lighter more reasonable wheel/tire combo with a performance spring/shock/sway bar package and I bet it stands with the best of them, so much so that base corvette guys would be :cbrrmike:

And call it the Z28, bring its curbweight in at 32-3300lbs (by whatever means necessary) packed full of 505hp.....Hell you could even keep the AC, the PW, PDL. Think FRC Vette meets 5th gen Camaro......

Oh and keep the price at $32k+/-

GM will never do it....I hope they make a liar out of me.




lol they couldnt even keep the ss at or under that tag :lol:

[Jersey_TA]

:drool:

They look nice, but I've ridden in my buddy's boss's Ford GT and it was by far the most uncomfortable car I've ever ridden in.

[Frosty]

they dont want the camaro to be faster than the BASE corvette.

:werd: The Z06 has never been their "flagship" car. I'm not sure what everyone is bitching about, the Camaro is selling just fine. The days of stripped out, 3200lb cars are long gone. This isn't the 60's. There are a very select few people who want no-optioned cars....GM is in the business to make $, not to make every internet guru who won't buy one to begin with happy.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

as far as I've always known,
the camaro/trans am/firebird. have always been short changed to keep it away from competing with the Vette.

the Vette is supposed to be Gm's ultimate car & if they produce a camaro that meets or exceeds the vette cause they were tryin to outdo the new mustang. then that would be a problem.

[JL8Jeff]

lol they couldnt even keep the ss at or under that tag :lol:

1SS with 6 speed comes in under $32K and has over 400hp, that seems affordable to me.

And I wonder how many of these Boss302R cars will be bought by investors and tucked away in storage to never be driven or raced, probably 50% or more. Any car that is not street legal is not even worth talking about unless you are a real racer. The technology is there to do whatever you want to a car, so having the manufacturer do it, jack the price up and make it not legal for street use is pretty worthless no matter who the manufacturer is. Build it (or have it built) yourself and drive it!

[1QWIKBIRD]

:werd: The Z06 has never been their "flagship" car. I'm not sure what everyone is bitching about, the Camaro is selling just fine. The days of stripped out, 3200lb cars are long gone. This isn't the 60's. There are a very select few people who want no-optioned cars....GM is in the business to make $, not to make every internet guru who won't buy one to begin with happy.

I don't see many new Camaro's, except on dealer lots. Granted its January. And I'm not saying to build stripped out hulks, just make the Z28 lighter by 400lbs, give a performance based handling package and use the Z06 engine.

as far as I've always known,
the camaro/trans am/firebird. have always been short changed to keep it away from competing with the Vette.

the Vette is supposed to be Gm's ultimate car & if they produce a camaro that meets or exceeds the vette cause they were tryin to outdo the new mustang. then that would be a problem.

I agree. So as a compromise use the Z06 but "detune" it with a camshaft swap or something.

1SS with 6 speed comes in under $32K and has over 400hp, that seems affordable to me.

And I wonder how many of these Boss302R cars will be bought by investors and tucked away in storage to never be driven or raced, probably 50% or more. Any car that is not street legal is not even worth talking about unless you are a real racer. The technology is there to do whatever you want to a car, so having the manufacturer do it, jack the price up and make it not legal for street use is pretty worthless no matter who the manufacturer is. Build it (or have it built) yourself and drive it!

1LT is a loaded V6 car?
1SS is the entry level V8 car?
2SS is the loaded V8 car?

So why not do something different and offer the Z28 based off the 1SS with superior handling package, exhaust maybe some super duper seats and somehow trim the curb weight by 400lbs? Is that asking too much? We all know the Z28's hertiage was born of SCCA TransAm racing. Why not offer something that honors that heritage? The marketing campaign would practically write itself.

Ford can build the factory race cars because they've got enough of a following and brand established it has afforded them the ability. It's nothing more than a showcase type vehicle. Kudos to them for doing it though.

[Frosty]

Ford can build the factory race cars because they've got enough of a following and brand established it has afforded them the ability. It's nothing more than a showcase type vehicle. Kudos to them for doing it though.

:bs: Them building that car has nothing to do with a following, has nothing to do with them drumming up sales...it has everything to do with "wow, look at what we did". A few rich wanna be drag racers will buy them and shove them in a heated garage so they can rub one out to them as it sits there. :rofl:

Maybe there aren't many new Camaro's up by you but there are a ton around here. There was a waiting list for how long? The car is selling just fine.

400lb's is a lot of weight to trim and the Z28 hasn't been a SCCA tribute since the 60's. As far as the Z06 engine goes I believe they're phasing out the LS7(I could be wrong though).

With all of the safety equipment that's required it's hard to keep the weight down. Yes the car is bulky, yes the looks are subjective but the car handles its own just fine. It smokes it's competitors, Ford is just now upping the ante with the 5.0 Mustang, GM has time to respond. As of right now the Camaro is king of the hill...not sure why there's such an issue.

[WildBillyT]

:bs: Them building that car has nothing to do with a following, has nothing to do with them drumming up sales...it has everything to do with "wow, look at what we did". A few rich wanna be drag racers will buy them and shove them in a heated garage so they can rub one out to them as it sits there. :rofl:

Maybe there aren't many new Camaro's up by you but there are a ton around here. There was a waiting list for how long? The car is selling just fine.

400lb's is a lot of weight to trim and the Z28 hasn't been a SCCA tribute since the 60's. As far as the Z06 engine goes I believe they're phasing out the LS7(I could be wrong though).

With all of the safety equipment that's required it's hard to keep the weight down. Yes the car is bulky, yes the looks are subjective but the car handles its own just fine. It smokes it's competitors, Ford is just now upping the ante with the 5.0 Mustang, GM has time to respond. As of right now the Camaro is king of the hill...not sure why there's such an issue.

Hard core performance drivers will want a set list of specs and certain omissions. Radio delete, special ring and pinion, carbon fiber body panels, dry sump, etc. These cars won't sell well. They didn't in the 60's, either.

In order to keep the car alive they need to offer features that regular people want- like heated seats, XM radio, GPS, useless 22" rims, etc.

One of the reasons the Mustang is still around is because it's such a solid V6 seller. That affords them the ability to screw around with V8 models.

[BonzoHansen]

...These cars won't sell well. They didn't in the 60's, either. ....A noteworthy fact often overlooked. The best though are the stories of mopar dealers de-birding superbirds because no one wanted one. LOL, ah how time smooths history

[WildBillyT]

A noteworthy fact often overlooked. The best though are the stories of mopar dealers de-birding superbirds because no one wanted one. LOL, ah how time smooths history

Even the all mighty ZL1 that everybody fawns over now...sold like crap. I think it was around double the price of an regular SS Camaro at $7200, and Gibb could only sell 13 of them. The rest got redistributed.

GM even had the two ZL1 prototype cars that were around $9000 when they were all done. Talk about steep for the time. An average house had a price of $15000.

[LTb1ow]

So Ford is wasting money making some "race car" mustang ( kinda ironic) and that will cause the demise of the camaro?

Something along these lines?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Gnomes_plan.png

[Blacdout96]

Exaclty. Ford doesn't have an answer to the Vette. Even the GT40 was weak in the knees when up against the Vette, especially considering the price point.

Ford GT vs. Z06
0-60 - 3.3 4.5
0-100 - 7.4 8.3
1/4 - 11.2 12.2
top speed - 205mph ( elect. limited) 198mph
60-0 - 114 108.4
HP - 550 505
Torque - 500 500
weight - 3,485lbs. 3,130
power/weight - 0.15 0.15
Skid - 1.01 1.01


If a price tag is a factor when it comes to buying a supercar, then you shouldn't consider buying one. If your looking for a car thats affordably cheap and fast, go vette, if you want to make a statement, have a sense in style, AND go fast, you go GT.

They look nice, but I've ridden in my buddy's boss's Ford GT and it was by far the most uncomfortable car I've ever ridden in.

It was based of an iconic race car that was 40 in. ( the lowest GT40 was the MkIV @ 38.5 in.!!) this one was the tallest @ 44in, believe me, buying a car that low, you gotta understand they were built to fit people comfortably peopel th size of Kasey :lol:

Drove one....cool cars, just not $200K cool. Can has ZR1 for way less.
your right you could, the Z06 is a mass produced car compared to the GT, and thats like saying a Pagani Zonda is cool, just not 3/4 million cool, your buying and exclusivity car, there's nothing exclusive about a Z06 compared to the GT or other supercars.

[NastyEllEssWon]

he said zr1...not z06





and in the gt's defense.....the bar the zr1 set wasnt set yet ;)

[WildBillyT]

Ford GT vs. Z06
0-60 - 3.3 4.5
0-100 - 7.4 8.3
1/4 - 11.2 12.2
top speed - 205mph ( elect. limited) 198mph
60-0 - 114 108.4
HP - 550 505
Torque - 500 500
weight - 3,485lbs. 3,130
power/weight - 0.15 0.15
Skid - 1.01 1.01


If a price tag is a factor when it comes to buying a supercar, then you shouldn't consider buying one. If your looking for a car thats affordably cheap and fast, go vette, if you want to make a statement, have a sense in style, AND go fast, you go GT.



It was based of an iconic race car that was 40 in. ( the lowest GT40 was the MkIV @ 38.5 in.!!) this one was the tallest @ 44in, believe me, buying a car that low, you gotta understand they were built to fit people comfortably peopel th size of Kasey :lol:


your right you could, the Z06 is a mass produced car compared to the GT, and thats like saying a Pagani Zonda is cool, just not 3/4 million cool, your buying and exclusivity car, there's nothing exclusive about a Z06 compared to the GT or other supercars.

I'd MUCH rather go for a replica GT40. Complete with megaphones and all. Seeing as how the GT is impractical anyway.

[Frosty]

Blac, those numbers don't make sense. I've only seen 1 Ford GT run at the track so I can't say ALL run a certain time but this one wasn't anywhere near 11.2's(nor have some of the Youtube vids I've seen). Also, show me a single Z06 that runs 12.20's and I'll show you a driver that shouldn't own the car. A C6 Z06 is a solid mid 11 second car all day long. Further proof that magazine times are pointless.

Explain how a car that has only 45hp more and weighs over 300#'s more can run a full second faster in the 1/4...no way.

[BonzoHansen]

Ford GT vs. Z06
apples & oranges.

[1QWIKBIRD]

BTW, GM offers a Camaro shell for drag racing applications.

As far as I know there was a full out drag version of the Challenger...we all see how well that helped sell the car.

What exactly are you basing the lack of Camaro buzz on(I have my theories but I'll play nice)? ANY new model we get all kinds of hype then die down...do you want people blowing GM engineers for the next 5yrs? The buzz over the redesigned Mustang died in about a year then it was business as usual.

I'm sorry but factory drag car products DO NOT sell cars...GM could go build a 1200hp, $200K drag car and I(along with the masses) could care less. I'm either going to buy a new Camaro or I'm not....why would some pet project influence my decision to buy or not buy? Anyone that gets influenced by a drag car like that they can't afford is an idiot.

BTW, the days of 3200lbs cars are LONG gone....WAY LONG gone...there are too many safety requirements and bells and whistles the public wants. Sure, go strip out a Z28 to have nothing in it...GM would sell about 10 of them to die hard enthusiasts.

I still don't buy this super Mustang influencing a single street model sale...one has nothing to do with the other IMO. Some people are using this pet project to rip on GM...then they would be the same people whining that GM spends $$ on stupid stuff....this would be a perfect example. GM would see absolutely no benefit to building some stupid drag car.

The Challenger suffers from the same disease as the Camaro, its fat (4100lbs) and how do you offer a sports car in its first model year and not offer a manual transmission? That was a poorly thought out move on Dodge's part. I don't think 3200lb cars are long gone. A 2009 Mustang GT, the direct comparison for a Z28 tips the scales at 3400lbs. I doubt Ford has sourced some unobtainium somewhere to build the car with. Tell the GM engineers to cut 400lbs from the curb weight, I'm sure they can do it.

I'm basing the lack of buzz because I don't see them? I see the same cars on the dealer lots that I pass on a regular basis. Maguire, Elkins, Superior. Maybe they are selling and being restocked with identical cars? And in case you think I'm anti-Camaro because I have a firechicken, you'd be way off base on that one. I'm not even anti-Camaro I just see the car as a dissappointment given the chance to start from a clean slate. How can GM produce the CTS (and CTS-V) and the G8 from a clean slate and put together such a beautiful car that sets the standard and not do the same with the Camaro. I think they got sucked into the retro theme (chasing the Mustang AGAIN) and forced the design to the extent the styling suffers. We know the car will perform because the driveline is world class.

GM already built and blew countless millions building some POS SSR truck thing and horribly failed attempt to revive the GTO....

:bs: Them building that car has nothing to do with a following, has nothing to do with them drumming up sales...it has everything to do with "wow, look at what we did". A few rich wanna be drag racers will buy them and shove them in a heated garage so they can rub one out to them as it sits there. :rofl:

Maybe there aren't many new Camaro's up by you but there are a ton around here. There was a waiting list for how long? The car is selling just fine.

400lb's is a lot of weight to trim and the Z28 hasn't been a SCCA tribute since the 60's. As far as the Z06 engine goes I believe they're phasing out the LS7(I could be wrong though).

With all of the safety equipment that's required it's hard to keep the weight down. Yes the car is bulky, yes the looks are subjective but the car handles its own just fine. It smokes it's competitors, Ford is just now upping the ante with the 5.0 Mustang, GM has time to respond. As of right now the Camaro is king of the hill...not sure why there's such an issue.

Your right some rich guys will polish the cars in a heated garage with man juice, but you don't think it has the slightest trickle down effect on a young impressionable male buyer? Maybe he see's one run and gets the itch. So he ends up in a base GT versus a V6 car, but he go the idea....?

Don't use the LS7 then....but give it something special.

If the car (1SS or 2SS)stands on it own, then don't mess with it. But let Z28 stand head and shoulders above that. What are you gonna add to the Z28? More power, definitely! More creature comforts (espresso machine in the console)? The Z28 isn't going to make or break the sales for the car, that's the V6's job. Do the Z28 right, give the HP, the suspension and brakes. Lessen the creatures comforts or make use of alternative materials to trim the weight.....and let it rip.

Hard core performance drivers will want a set list of specs and certain omissions. Radio delete, special ring and pinion, carbon fiber body panels, dry sump, etc. These cars won't sell well. They didn't in the 60's, either.

In order to keep the car alive they need to offer features that regular people want- like heated seats, XM radio, GPS, useless 22" rims, etc.

One of the reasons the Mustang is still around is because it's such a solid V6 seller. That affords them the ability to screw around with V8 models.

I realize I'm in the minority, but to me the Z28 is all about performance. I hope GM sells the V6 cars buy the boatloads and that buys them some flexibility with the V8 cars, like the Mustang model.

Even the all mighty ZL1 that everybody fawns over now...sold like crap. I think it was around double the price of an regular SS Camaro at $7200, and Gibb could only sell 13 of them. The rest got redistributed.

GM even had the two ZL1 prototype cars that were around $9000 when they were all done. Talk about steep for the time. An average house had a price of $15000.

I'm not arguing for ZL1 type builds. Just a nice reasonably light Camaro with an upgraded suspension with a bump in power and a manual transmission.

Who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

[BonzoHansen]

I thought I just read where the new mustang is much closer to Camaro weight. might have been the fully loaded GT500 or whatever the top shelf model is.

[NastyEllEssWon]

lol frosty...there was a zr1 guy down at atco this year....iirc he wasnt running much faster than high 11s.....we all know theyre faster than that....the type of people that own these cars are the type that cant drive em either...



coughcoughbugatticrashedinlakecoughcough :lol:

[Blacdout96]

The ZR1 shouldn't be compared to the GT since the GT's production ended before the
ZR1, so my comparisons are kept in the same build years.

Apples to oranges, yes, that's what im trying to say, but everyone seems to compare the two.

stats are stats, thats the 1/4 times I got. You gotta remember, theres a supercharger sitting atop the motor giving low end response, big honking tires to grip with, and the motor is located closer to the rear, giving that little scoot off the line compared to the Z06. I'm sure you saw faster time,s but I'm going by what the stats say.


And WBT, I agree, I'm sure the GT is a little more comfortable, but you can't beat an old school 4 weber 48IDA carbed 302, fat flared GT40 replica :drool: :drool:

[WildBillyT]

I realize I'm in the minority, but to me the Z28 is all about performance. I hope GM sells the V6 cars buy the boatloads and that buys them some flexibility with the V8 cars, like the Mustang model.



I'm not arguing for ZL1 type builds. Just a nice reasonably light Camaro with an upgraded suspension with a bump in power and a manual transmission.

Who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

My point was that the performance-first mentality only applies to a small group of people as it always has, and no money is to be made there. Yes, it sucks, but I don't see it changing.

And WBT, I agree, I'm sure the GT is a little more comfortable, but you can't beat an old school 4 weber 48IDA carbed 302, fat flared GT40 replica :drool: :drool:

Nope. 7500RPM through the megaphones is something that stands in a class all its own.

A shot of a family friend's headers during development (pre final weld and polish):

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/double_overdrive496/moore_header.jpg

This car is done now and is awesome...

[1QWIKBIRD]

I thought I just read where the new mustang is much closer to Camaro weight. might have been the fully loaded GT500 or whatever the top shelf model is.

Yeah the GT500 super duper version is 3900lbs...but the GT is pretty still a relatively light car at 3400lbs.

GM doesn't need to chase the GT500-Super Snake-Shelbly-Parnelli Jones-Boss-Mach I-Cobra Jet edition.

Let the aftermarket builders do that.

Just build the Z28 to completely annhilate the GT....completely and totally and let the thing have some personality....

[1QWIKBIRD]

My point was that the performance-first mentality only applies to a small group of people as it always has, and no money is to be made there. Yes, it sucks, but I don't see it changing.

I understand I guess I'm just old. Compared to the 12V Cummins Turbo Diesel I drive everyday, just about anything is pure luxury.:rofl: So for me it would take very few creature comforts to WOW me. But I guess if you (generally speaking) cruising in a a new Malibu or G8 or Camary or Accord, then maybe you've become accustomed to a more refined existence.

So who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

[WildBillyT]

I understand I guess I'm just old. Compared to the 12V Cummins Turbo Diesel I drive everyday, just about anything is pure luxury.:rofl: So for me it would take very few creature comforts to WOW me. But I guess if you cruising in a a new Malibu or G8 or Camary or Accord, then maybe you've become accustomed to a more refined existence.

So who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

Well, I'd stand in line right behind you for a performance-based Z28, that's for sure. But we are the minority. It will probably have assorted doodads that make it tubby bitch heavy so they can sell more of them.

[Blacdout96]

My point was that the performance-first mentality only applies to a small group of people as it always has, and no money is to be made there. Yes, it sucks, but I don't see it changing.



Nope. 7500RPM through the megaphones is something that stands in a class all its own.

A shot of a family friend's headers during development (pre final weld and polish):

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/double_overdrive496/moore_header.jpg

This car is done now and is awesome...



Hold it, hold it, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddd I'm half chubbed :lol:


they did a good job, Weslake valve covers and all. And it looks like it's painted in the original Gulf Colors, just like the one Mr. Collier owns!! And before any of you say no, it's light blue, yes those are the famous colors, but originally Gulf wanted them to run a dark blue and orange scheme.

[WildBillyT]

Hold it, hold it, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddd I'm half chubbed :lol:


they did a good job, Weslake valve covers and all. And it looks like it's painted in the original Gulf Colors, just like the one Mr. Collier owns!!

Those are Gurney Weslake heads. Very very nice setup, done by Olthoff racing I believe.

[Frosty]

Don't use the LS7 then....but give it something special.



You....do....know....what....motor....is....going. ...in....the...Z28....right? ;)

[Frosty]

stats are stats, thats the 1/4 times I got. You gotta remember, theres a supercharger sitting atop the motor giving low end response, big honking tires to grip with, and the motor is located closer to the rear, giving that little scoot off the line compared to the Z06. I'm sure you saw faster time,s but I'm going by what the stats say.




That's fine, stats are stats and I'm saying there's not a snowball's chance in hell that car is running a consistent 11.2's...no way, no how. EVERY video I've seen has the GT barely edging out a stock Z06...and the Z06's with longtubes and a tune are blowing them out of the water....it can't be the case that EVERY driver of the GT was bad. The source you quoted for the Z06 is horribly off...they seriously must've had a special kid driving it. :D

Like I said, I think the GT is a cool car and yes it's a "status" car but for $200K(that's what the dealers were getting for them), no thanks. You can keep the status and the ego that goes with it.

[Blacdout96]

sure, yuo could put long tubes, and tune, and it'll beat the GT, but then you can throw a smaller pulley, tune and if you want upgrade the exhaust on the GT, and it's back to square one where the z06 is edged out by the GT ;) stock for stock were talkign about though, no mods.

[LTb1ow]

Ford sucks. Mustangs are slow. Mod motors blow.

/thread.

[BonzoHansen]

You....do....know....what....motor....is....going. ...in....the...Z28....right? ;)

not an ls7 :-P

[Blacdout96]

and GT's shouldn
t be at a drag track in the first place, not their original intentions, should belong on a nice twisty piece of Nurburg :D

[Frosty]

sure, yuo could put long tubes, and tune, and it'll beat the GT, but then you can throw a smaller pulley, tune and if you want upgrade the exhaust on the GT, and it's back to square one where the z06 is edged out by the GT ;) stock for stock were talkign about though, no mods.

I understand that, my point was there isn't a full second difference between the cars stock for stock.

not an ls7 :-P

Nope, I think he's missing what motor is really going in there. :)

[Knipps]

surprised no one picked up on the "horribly failed attempt to revive the GTO...." comment.

:popcorn:

[Blacdout96]

Id would of, but last time I mentioned GTO all the GM nutswingers came out and flamed me. :lol:

[1QWIKBIRD]

I understand that, my point was there isn't a full second difference between the cars stock for stock.



Nope, I think he's missing what motor is really going in there. :)

The LSA......not missing it at all. But guess what? That kills the idea of keeping the price down....so now your talking about a 50K+ Z28? And how many people are gonna drop that kinda coin on a Camaro? Not a Vette, not a Caddy, but a Camaro?

What would be outright hilarious is if they did an iron block version for the Camaro so the CTS-V crowd would still feel exclusive.

With the exception of the original Z28, the Camaro has always gotten a watered down motor from the Vette. Why can't the Z28 be a car unto itself. No borrowed motors, no trying to please everyone with gadgets and ubber refinements. Build a bad mofo car, keep it simple, keep it clean, give it the HP, the suspension and good seats and let it rip. If it kicks the base Vette's rear end, then the Vette team needs to up the ante.

Who is the target demographic again?

[1QWIKBIRD]

surprised no one picked up on the "horribly failed attempt to revive the GTO...." comment.

:popcorn:

Id would of, but last time I mentioned GTO all the GM nutswingers came out and flamed me. :lol:

Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the GTO was NOT a bust?

Drivetrain.....CHECK Worldclass....we can agree on this.
Interior apppointments........CHECK...way ahead of any F-body and huge step forward for GM.....

Exterior........The one that looked like a Cobalt on a strectched wheelbase? Fail, huge Fail.... The GTO's exterior styling was so generic that without the badges you would be hard pressed to pick it out in a crowd.

How much R&D, tooling and marketing $$$$ got flushed down the tubes on that one?

[WildBillyT]

Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the GTO was NOT a bust?

Drivetrain.....CHECK Worldclass....we can agree on this.
Interior apppointments........CHECK...way ahead of any F-body and huge step forward for GM.....

Exterior........The one that looked like a Cobalt on a strectched wheelbase? Fail, huge Fail.... The GTO's exterior styling was so generic that without the badges you would be hard pressed to pick it out in a crowd.

How much R&D, tooling and marketing $$$$ got flushed down the tubes on that one?

Not much. I seem to remember it being one of the most rushed projects in GM's history. A few months to convert the entire Holden car to USA spec.

[Featherburner]

as far as I've always known,
the camaro/trans am/firebird. have always been short changed to keep it away from competing with the Vette.

the Vette is supposed to be Gm's ultimate car & if they produce a camaro that meets or exceeds the vette cause they were tryin to outdo the new mustang. then that would be a problem.Except in the mid to late 70's. The Trans Am was faster than the Vette. Of course that was a dark time for performance...dodge had the fastest american production vehicle and it was a pickup.:shock: so, that's not saying much.

[WildBillyT]

Except in the mid to late 70's. The Trans Am was faster than the Vette. Of course that was a dark time for performance...dodge had the fastest american production vehicle and it was a pickup.:shock: so, that's not saying much.

SD455 in '73-'74

[Frosty]

The LSA......not missing it at all. But guess what? That kills the idea of keeping the price down....so now your talking about a 50K+ Z28? And how many people are gonna drop that kinda coin on a Camaro? Not a Vette, not a Caddy, but a Camaro?

What would be outright hilarious is if they did an iron block version for the Camaro so the CTS-V crowd would still feel exclusive.

With the exception of the original Z28, the Camaro has always gotten a watered down motor from the Vette. Why can't the Z28 be a car unto itself. No borrowed motors, no trying to please everyone with gadgets and ubber refinements. Build a bad mofo car, keep it simple, keep it clean, give it the HP, the suspension and good seats and let it rip. If it kicks the base Vette's rear end, then the Vette team needs to up the ante.

Who is the target demographic again?

Then you can make the argument the GT500 is a waste as it's the upper echelon of it's model. How cheap do you want a car? I mean really. Power costs money. Like I said a million times, the days of stripped out, no optioned high powered cars are dead...building a car like that caters to a VERY select few people. Yes, we're all motor heads here and want to go fast with doing very little work...but guess what? The average Joe doesn't need or want a car like that. They want a car with bells and whistles that has a good amount of power. He/she wants a car that they can hop in and drive anywhere and listen to their XM radio with the sunroof open. THAT is what sells a bunch of cars...not the small demographic we consider ourselves.

Why do you think the V6 models sell so well?

[BonzoHansen]

Who is the target demographic again?For the Z28? the same guy buying the $50,000+ Mustang. The same guy that bought the $5,000+ COPO or $7,000+ ZL1 in 1969. Deep pockets. the Z is now the top dog and is priced as such. don't get lost on the model designations. Compare apples to apples. Giving the new Z28 it's own engine and not the CTSV engine would just raise the $$ even more!

You guys really seem to be talking about a stripper model/club racer type of car. This Z28 ain't that - it's a shelby/ktr/wtf mustang beater. Do they need one? Maybe. Buy a zero option 1SS and strip it yourself, problem solved!

I'd like to see a V6 car be able to get the underpinnings/brakes on the SS. That might be fun!

How much R&D, tooling and marketing $$$$ got flushed down the tubes on that one?

not that much in the grand scheme of things.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Then you can make the argument the GT500 is a waste as it's the upper echelon of it's model. How cheap do you want a car? I mean really. Power costs money. Like I said a million times, the days of stripped out, no optioned high powered cars are dead...building a car like that caters to a VERY select few people. Yes, we're all motor heads here and want to go fast with doing very little work...but guess what? The average Joe doesn't need or want a car like that. They want a car with bells and whistles that has a good amount of power. He/she wants a car that they can hop in and drive anywhere and listen to their XM radio with the sunroof open. THAT is what sells a bunch of cars...not the small demographic we consider ourselves.

Why do you think the V6 models sell so well?

The V6 cars sell because people don't have the $$$ for the V8 cars. A 50-60k Z28 caters to a very few select people also, no?

For the Z28? the same guy buying the $50,000+ Mustang. The same guy that bought the $5,000+ COPO or $7,000+ ZL1 in 1969. Deep pockets. the Z is now the top dog and is priced as such. don't get lost on the model designations. Compare apples to apples. Giving the new Z28 it's own engine and not the CTSV engine would just raise the $$ even more!

You guys really seem to be talking about a stripper model/club racer type of car. This Z28 ain't that - it's a shelby/ktr/wtf mustang beater. Do they need one? Maybe. Buy a zero option 1SS and strip it yourself, problem solved!

I'd like to see a V6 car be able to get the underpinnings/brakes on the SS. That might be fun!



not that much in the grand scheme of things.

First the argument is made that a big power low option car won't selll because nobody wants them. Ok. Point taken. But I argue that while everybody might like the idea of big power big option Z28, nobody will buy them at the price level GM will set them at. So really you end up in the same place weak sales for the Z28?

If you're gonna swing for the fences then man up and do it....Stealing the LSA from Caddy is nice. But if you are really going at the super ubber King Snake/KTR/wtf Mustang why not just use the LS9 and the dry sump setup? At 4000lbs the camaro won't be faster than the Vette, but it'd put such a hurtin on the Mustang that GM would have the bragging rights they seem to be going for. Ultimate supremacy. This might be one of the few instances where using an elephant gun to kill the fly is justified.

I like Bonzo's suggestion with the 1SS except I don't want to buy a new car and strip it. I want GM to engineer a lighter car, add more power and suspension. I think maybe I'm equating the Z28 more to the 1LE and that's not the direction that GM (or anyone else but me for that matter) is going with this. Because originally (first gen) the Z28 was more closely equal to 1LE and the SS was the car to get if you wanted all the goodies. There was no AC or automatics to be had in the Z28 and I'm perfectly OK with that. If we are going retro, then lets go retro. Clearly I am not in agreement with the current marketing strategy or the trim level designations. Nor do I think there is any significant market for a 50-60K Camaro, super charged or otherwise. How many do they hope to build 69 (pun intended)?

As a parting thought.....(not a parting shot):lol:
Do the trim levels like this (thinking back to the first gen stuff)
1LT would be like the entry level think 250/PG combo....
1SS would be like the base performance V8 think 327/210hp combo
2SS would be like the high performance V8 think 350/300hp SS combo
3SS would be like the special high performance V8 396/375hp SS combo (currently what the Z28 sounds to be, big power, big options)

Z28 would be like the orginal Z28 - good HP/suspension/brakes, lower option availability, lower curb weight. You might be required to pass the old "turn your head and cough" test before signing your name on the line for one......:nod:

Peace.....

[1QWIKBIRD]

Not much. I seem to remember it being one of the most rushed projects in GM's history. A few months to convert the entire Holden car to USA spec.

And it showed in the bland styling.....

But was the GTO a success or was it something more towards the other end of the scale?

[BonzoHansen]

IIRC LS9 is a wet sump engine. I think LSA is too.

The V6 cars sell because people don't have the $$$ for the V8 cars. A 50-60k Z28 caters to a very few select people also, no?

Yes, very few. And GM wants to make $$ off them. I bet they project to sell no more than 750-1000, and any more is icing.

Regarding the V6 comment, don't assume what you want is 'normal'! :mrgreen: They didn't call Mustangs secretary cars for nothing! Many people buy V6 cars because they like the looks and don't want a V8 car. They think is too fast for them (probably true) and they don't like the lower MPG. It is not only cost, not at all. I bet a fully loaded 2LT/RS will cost as much as many V8 cars. And this car is getting a hot little V6. And the car is a few hundred pounds lighter.

At this point GM needs to make money, a bunch of one off options & models just kills the bottom line. Tooling up for goofy parts used on 500 cars gets expensive fast, especially if govt crash testing or emissions compliance is involved.

[JerzLT1]

Ford GT vs. Z06
0-60 - 3.3 4.5
0-100 - 7.4 8.3
1/4 - 11.2 12.2
top speed - 205mph ( elect. limited) 198mph
60-0 - 114 108.4
HP - 550 505
Torque - 500 500
weight - 3,485lbs. 3,130
power/weight - 0.15 0.15
Skid - 1.01 1.01


If a price tag is a factor when it comes to buying a supercar, then you shouldn't consider buying one. If your looking for a car thats affordably cheap and fast, go vette, if you want to make a statement, have a sense in style, AND go fast, you go GT.

the C6 Z06 is a 10 second car off of the show room floor, stock clutch, on street tires

[Frosty]

The V6 cars sell because people don't have the $$$ for the V8 cars.

You sure about that? You're thinking too much like a Fbody owner and motor head than in the real world...a majority of the V6 owners want just that...a cool looking car without all of the needless power and cost.

Do you think the 39yr old woman who doesn't know a thing about cars needs the GT or wants that power?

[BigAls87Z28]

HOLY ****!!!


as far as I've always known,
the camaro/trans am/firebird. have always been short changed to keep it away from competing with the Vette.

the Vette is supposed to be Gm's ultimate car & if they produce a camaro that meets or exceeds the vette cause they were tryin to outdo the new mustang. then that would be a problem.

Camaro, by its nature, will never come that close to the Corvette
#2: there have been a handfull of cars that have matched or beaten the Corvette. Current CTS-V will out perform the base C6 in just about everything.


I don't see many new Camaro's, except on dealer lots. Granted its January. And I'm not saying to build stripped out hulks, just make the Z28 lighter by 400lbs, give a performance based handling package and use the Z06 engine.

Camaro outsold the Mustang, by a large margin, since it stepped onto dealer lots. By a lot. In fact, some months Camaro outsold the Mustang AND Challenger combined.
You say dont strip it out, but then you say take away all featuers like power windows, door locks, etc etc?
You say dont want it stripped, but you want 400lbs to disappear?
The chassis is very strong adn was developed to hold 600+hp without additional chassis stregnthing, unlike the Mustang which gets a LOT of chassis upgrades to go from GT to GT500. Think that 500lbs gain from the two models is a supercharger and a 6spd manual? Remember, GT500 carries the SAME rear axle as the GT, and does not get an upgraded IRS system.
So an engine and a trans, a different hood, and people spend 15k MORE for it?

Camaro will not be able to loose 400lbs. 100-200lbs? Sure.

I agree. So as a compromise use the Z06 but "detune" it with a camshaft swap or something.
The LS7 costs a lot of money, as everything is unique and hand built. An LS7 powerd Camaro would come in at around 55k. Realize that the LS7 crate engine costs 50% of what a brand new, Camaro SS costs? Think about it.


1LT is a loaded V6 car?
1SS is the entry level V8 car?
2SS is the loaded V8 car?

LS is base car 18" retro steelies.
1LT is step up. 18" alloy wheels cloth seats with cloth inserts on door and dash
2LT is next step up 19" alloy wheels with heated leather seats. Heated side mirrors as well, blue tooth standard, USB standard, Boston Accoustic system standard.
1SS gets same trim as the 1LT, just with a V8. SS gets different nose cone, 20" wheels with performance tires.
2SS gets same as 2LT, only with SS features.
RS package available on LT and SS models. Gives LT cars SS wheels, body color roof molding, darkened tail lights, red RS or SS badge, and halo headlights.

So why not do something different and offer the Z28 based off the 1SS with superior handling package, exhaust maybe some super duper seats and somehow trim the curb weight by 400lbs? Is that asking too much? We all know the Z28's hertiage was born of SCCA TransAm racing. Why not offer something that honors that heritage? The marketing campaign would practically write itself.

I agree with you, but you arent gunna see 400lbs. Thats greater then 10% of the weight of the car. Corvette Z51 vs Corvette Z06, the weight difference is 150lbs, and the Corvette Z06 gets an all aluminum frame, magensium engine cradle and roof brace. It also has carbon fiber parts.

I agree that the Z28 should be a lighter weight version of the SS. Up the brakes, up the suspension, minor boost in LS3 power, drop the weight by 150lbs. It would be a fantastic car, offering a 450hp car at around 3700lbs.
Bench mark, to me, is the M3. M3 is a 400+hp coupe weighing in at 3700lbs or so. Z28 should target that cars' drive, steering feel, handling, poise and stance, for 2/3's the price.


Yeah the GT500 super duper version is 3900lbs...but the GT is pretty still a relatively light car at 3400lbs.

GM doesn't need to chase the GT500-Super Snake-Shelbly-Parnelli Jones-Boss-Mach I-Cobra Jet edition.

Let the aftermarket builders do that.

Just build the Z28 to completely annhilate the GT....completely and totally and let the thing have some personality....

The SS annhilates the GT now. The 2011 GT will be a lot closer due to the increased power. But a Z28 will not be going after the GT.


The LSA......not missing it at all. But guess what? That kills the idea of keeping the price down....so now your talking about a 50K+ Z28? And how many people are gonna drop that kinda coin on a Camaro? Not a Vette, not a Caddy, but a Camaro?

What would be outright hilarious is if they did an iron block version for the Camaro so the CTS-V crowd would still feel exclusive.

The Z28 would be Camaro's GT500/SRT8, top trim car. While not 50k, it would deff start in the mid 40's. And who would buy them? They would sell every single one, just as they do now. People grab up every GT500, GT500KR, etc etc, and they get to 90k.

With the exception of the original Z28, the Camaro has always gotten a watered down motor from the Vette. Why can't the Z28 be a car unto itself. No borrowed motors, no trying to please everyone with gadgets and ubber refinements. Build a bad mofo car, keep it simple, keep it clean, give it the HP, the suspension and good seats and let it rip. If it kicks the base Vette's rear end, then the Vette team needs to up the ante.

Who is the target demographic again?

Cars like the Z28 are high end cars, and cars taht cost a lot of money usually come with features. Camaro comes with these features like power windows and door locks. Designing roll up windows, manual locks, and things that are not part of the current Camaro would actually drive costs up. A lot. Because then it would have to be certified and retested, as it would rengineer a lot of things inside the door, and that would effect side crash tests.
The Camaro is a bad mofo car now. Corvette does not need to worry about anything. It will be too light, too small, and too fast for the Camaro.

Not 100% on the demo but Id throw out a guess anyone. The V6 is built for the younger crowd, perhaps the non-American crowd is used to the high output of a V6, and not the grunt of a V8.
V8 models market is a older, Id say in the 35-40 year old and up market. People that want power, but dont want modern features.



And it showed in the bland styling.....

But was the GTO a success or was it something more towards the other end of the scale?

In 04, the GTO outsold the 04 Cobra.
the 04 GTO outsold, and I belive almost doubled Trans Am sales in 2002.
04 GTO also outsold 2002 SS Camaros.
In American numbers, 15-18k units is a very small number of cars. But to Austrailia, more then 50% of all Monaro production was sold in America.
We assume that since the GTO only had a program run of 3 years due to a total chassis redesign, that it was a flop due to its design.
Far from the truth. GTO's styling was a byproduct of Australian design. It was a low cost, quick move to get a quality product out to market. Pontiac's research says that a lot of Trans Am owners, as well as Grand Am coupe and Grand Prix coupes sold or traded them in and got higher end coupes from BMW, Benz. The idea of bringing a higher quality coupe to market like the GTO was a huge win for GM.
Only in the eyes of jaded enthusiasts did we see the GTO as a flop. We expected a 1970 Judge wraped around a modern platform to come rolling off the boats from Australia.

[BigAls87Z28]

LS9 is dry sump like the LS7. In fact, they share the same system as they are built along side.
the LSA is not hand built, and therefor has a normal wet sump.

You can spend up to 30k for a 2LT RS...I dont think that "not having the $$$" is a reason for buying a V8. 300hp, and 30mpg, and the look of the hottest car of 2009, all for under 30k?
If it was such a stupid move, Ford wouldnt have tried to copy it.


Also, GM is making a lot more money they then thought they were gunna on the Camaro. About 8 to 10 grand per car on average.
Its a gold mine.

[BonzoHansen]

Damn LS9, i thought it was wet sump too. Oh well.

[1QWIKBIRD]

..............
I agree that the Z28 should be a lighter weight version of the SS. Up the brakes, up the suspension, minor boost in LS3 power, drop the weight by 150lbs. It would be a fantastic car, offering a 450hp car at around 3700lbs.....


That's all I'm asking (although I'd really like closer to 300lbs weight drop).....Yet everyone seems to think I'm nuts? Does the Z28 need to be supercharged and pushed into the upper $40k price range to accomplish that goal?

As for GTO production 40,800+/- units over the 3 year run is still short of the all the V8 based Pontiacs (Firebirds/TransAms) from the final three years of the 4th gen (2000, 2001, 2002) combined (41,700+/-) so I'm not sold on the GTO being a success. Trends maybe have been learned which were applied to the G8 etc. But on its own the GTO didn't deliver. Best case it was a stop gap that gave GM a mid price V8 rear drive car that it otherwise didn't have.

I appreciate the well thought out answer BigAl. Maybe I am a jaded enthusiast after all. I talk to my Dad (63years old) and you mention Z28 to him and he'll tell you about the 69Z28 he bought new when he got out of the Navy in '69. Forrest Green with Gold Stripes, dealer installed sidepipes, 4-speed no console, no rear spoiler, no cowl hood. A real stripped Z28. The smile on his face is 3 miles wide. Bought headers for it at Langhorne Speedshop or was it Reedman, I forget. Then he laughs says it only cost him $3400 or so. That's what I think when I think Z28......100% performance, no frills and have fun.

[Tru2Chevy]

surprised no one picked up on the "horribly failed attempt to revive the GTO...." comment.

:popcorn:

Yea, yea....GTO started life as a plain-jane tempest / lemans with a bunch of power under the hood. I personally feel that the 04-06 GTOs do the name 10x more justice than some of the other names that GM has brought back from the past.

- Justin

[BigAls87Z28]

That's all I'm asking (although I'd really like closer to 300lbs weight drop).....Yet everyone seems to think I'm nuts? Does the Z28 need to be supercharged and pushed into the upper $40k price range to accomplish that goal?

No, but like this thread has started, people think that GM should copy, car for car, what the Mustang does.
GM said ok, and is going to make a 550hp Supercharged V8 Z28.
Do they have to? No, not in my world. I would much rathe rsee a 3700lbs, 450hp LS3, or Gen V V8 roll out in a Z28.

As for GTO production 40,800+/- units over the 3 year run is still short of the all the V8 based Pontiacs (Firebirds/TransAms) from the final three years of the 4th gen (2000, 2001, 2002) combined (41,700+/-) so I'm not sold on the GTO being a success. Trends maybe have been learned which were applied to the G8 etc. But on its own the GTO didn't deliver. Best case it was a stop gap that gave GM a mid price V8 rear drive car that it otherwise didn't have.


You are gunna say that you arent sure that teh GTO, which is 200 short of your numbers for the TA, is not a success? Then by your own admission, the Trans Am and its variatns are not a success, and are flops in the market place. But if thats the case, there must be a reason?
You are saying that despite the GTO's lack of any type of loud and brash styling, its higher price point, its heavier weight, its lack of options, or any other things you can think of, it sells about the same as the fabled Trans Am?
The Trans Am did not deliver. The 4th gen was the biggest mistake in GM's history. It sold a fraction of what its previous generations did. Even in the third gen Camaro's worst year, it sold some 90k units I belive. That still is greater then the total sold in the last year of the 4th gen.
This is going by what you are saying. It didnt deliver.

I appreciate the well thought out answer BigAl. Maybe I am a jaded enthusiast after all. I talk to my Dad (63years old) and you mention Z28 to him and he'll tell you about the 69Z28 he bought new when he got out of the Navy in '69. Forrest Green with Gold Stripes, dealer installed sidepipes, 4-speed no console, no rear spoiler, no cowl hood. A real stripped Z28. The smile on his face is 3 miles wide. Bought headers for it at Langhorne Speedshop or was it Reedman, I forget. Then he laughs says it only cost him $3400 or so. That's what I think when I think Z28......100% performance, no frills and have fun.

Then is then, now is now. People expect heated seats and navigation in thier subcompact cars. People expect more from thier cars. Even though your father enjoyed his Z28, Id say that on the average Z28's were optioned higher then what your father purcahsed. I have met a lot of Fbody guys in my time. A lot. I could count on one finger how many base base base stripper models I have seen. It was a 2000 Camaro Z28, with roll up windows, manual door locks, hard top, auto, and even then it still has the optional Bose sound system. Guy still has it last time I checked.
Everyone else I have ever met has had more and more options.
Want to know the average transaction price of the current 5th gen? Its high, but I would say that is par for the course for the first year run.
Point is, people dont want to buy race cars anymore. Those days are over. They want a super car or something equivilent, but they want more to go with it.

[1QWIKBIRD]

.......snip......
You are gunna say that you arent sure that teh GTO, which is 200 short of your numbers for the TA, is not a success? Then by your own admission, the Trans Am and its variatns are not a success, and are flops in the market place. But if thats the case, there must be a reason?
You are saying that despite the GTO's lack of any type of loud and brash styling, its higher price point, its heavier weight, its lack of options, or any other things you can think of, it sells about the same as the fabled Trans Am?

The Trans Am did not deliver. The 4th gen was the biggest mistake in GM's history. It sold a fraction of what its previous generations did. Even in the third gen Camaro's worst year, it sold some 90k units I belive. That still is greater then the total sold in the last year of the 4th gen.
This is going by what you are saying. It didnt deliver.



Well you can spin it that way, both V8 cars were failures then. If the GTO was a success, they would have continued the line. Nobody just stops making a car that is in demand, that doesn't make sense. The F-body was cancelled because it wasn't making GM money. I would guess the same held true for the GTO.

http://www.allgentransams.com/production_information/pro_numbers/pn_home.html

http://www.camaro-registry.com/production.htm

The f-body platform (specifically pontiac's side) appears to have nosedived in the 1990 model year and never really regained the sales after that point. But in any given year the combined platforms would completely outpace the GTO by at least 5 to 1. I still maintain the GTO was a failure, good idea poorly executed. I think GM tried to cash in on a name, looked around found the holden car slapped some badges on it and the US motoring public said no thanks....not the GTO we were thinking of.

I never said the GTO needed loud and brash styling, just something a couple notches up from jellybean would have been more than enough. The CTS, the G8, the new Malibu are all very good looking GM products, but I would not say any of them are loud or brash. Just very clean and well executed designs. And just to be clear I'm not much of a Firebird/Trans Am guy, I'm definitely a Camaro guy.

Now maybe GM learned and are listening with regards to the Z28, and people will line up to buy a super top shelf Z28 at a near corvette price level. Time will tell.

This discussion has opened my eyes as to what the public is asking for. I'm just not part of that mindset. I agree that my Dad's Z28 was a stripper, but I think there are currently way more "loaded" 1969 Z28's now than ever existed in 1969. But yeah I would agree that most Z28's were nicely equipped, not stripped hotrods, but not loaded out JL8 equipped, crossrammed, gauge and console, endura bumpered, RS headlights, houndstooth deluxe interior with the tic-toc-tach etc. etc. etc. either. Time distorts memory, both good and bad.

Here's to GM making a $50k Z28 to go GT500Kr hunting. :cheers: Not the Z28 I would build, but if the public wants it and GM can sell them in sufficient quantity, then more power to them. Maybe then with all the loot they can put out 1LE version for me (and you?).

Chris

[Mike]

Well you can spin it that way, both V8 cars were failures then. If the GTO was a success, they would have continued the line. Nobody just stops making a car that is in demand, that doesn't make sense. The F-body was cancelled because it wasn't making GM money. I would guess the same held true for the GTO.

wrong. the gto ended because they only brought it for the last three years of the cars existence. that was PLANNED FROM THE BEGINNING. rather than develop the next generation holden coupe for us spec, they brought over the g8s.

[edpontiac91]

You also have to place a HUGE blame (on why the GTO never took off) directly on the freekin money hungry DEALERS:rofl:. Some of marked up the 2004 car $5,000 when they first came out and would NOT allow you to take a test drive without a deposit. After about 3 months of sitting on their lots, the prices came down to list, but still NO discounts. I went to look at 4 of them at a Pontiac dealer on Rt.18 in New Brunswick about 2 years ago. These cars were 2 years old, had sat in one place out in the open with no wax protection and looked beat. The dealer ONLY offered $2,000 off of list. The biggest drawback was the VERY small trunk, due to the relocation of the gas tank.

[BigAls87Z28]

Well you can spin it that way, both V8 cars were failures then. If the GTO was a success, they would have continued the line. Nobody just stops making a car that is in demand, that doesn't make sense. The F-body was cancelled because it wasn't making GM money. I would guess the same held true for the GTO.

The decision to make a coupe on the new platform was put on hold because GM NA decided it would move to a sedan, and not a coupe for the next generation.
While the GTO didnt go on, the G8 is its replacement. Pontiac saw that people wanted a more functional vehicle, something that offerd varied powertrains, and sure enough the G8 came here and did well.
Fbody made money. Problem is that it's sales were dropping off and the capacity of the plant was getting way too low. The choice to kill the Camaro came in 1996, when instead of investing money into a 5th gen platform after 2002, the move was made to upgrade the car, and let it die. The former head of product development also decided that RWD would be left for Corvette and Caddy. Everything else would be turned to FWD.
Combine all that, and you have the end of teh 4th gen.

http://www.allgentransams.com/production_information/pro_numbers/pn_home.html

http://www.camaro-registry.com/production.htm

The f-body platform (specifically pontiac's side) appears to have nosedived in the 1990 model year and never really regained the sales after that point. But in any given year the combined platforms would completely outpace the GTO by at least 5 to 1. I still maintain the GTO was a failure, good idea poorly executed. I think GM tried to cash in on a name, looked around found the holden car slapped some badges on it and the US motoring public said no thanks....not the GTO we were thinking of.

The combined cars, both Camaro and Firebird, selling in a broad range from around 20 to over 30k, complete with V6, V8, hard top, ttop, and convertable, in cloth and leather trims, outsold the GTO with one major option? Crazy.
US motoring public enjoyed it. Even the press. The styling wasnt polarizing like the Mustang, but it was a decent looking coupe. Only die-hard enthusiasts went crazy when it didnt look like a (insert favorate year GTO here).


Camaro is doing very well now, and its mostly due to its design and features, along with its historic power. Camaro gets an overhaul in 18 months, along with a convertable and high performance model.
We shall see what the Z28 brings us.

[cdacda13]

Total Camaro produced from 1998-2002: About 236,000
Total Camaros produced in 1984 alone: 261,591

Those numbers are worth a laugh or two.

[BonzoHansen]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/Aceshigh22/Demotivators/DemotivatorMustang.jpg

[NastyEllEssWon]

there should be another line to that pic that says

''and when you dont want an lt1'' :lol:

[1QWIKBIRD]

wrong. the gto ended because they only brought it for the last three years of the cars existence. that was PLANNED FROM THE BEGINNING. rather than develop the next generation holden coupe for us spec, they brought over the g8s.

So my line of thinking wasn't too far off the mark. GM had a dead beat car on its hands, looked around and said "what can we call it????" So they slapped some GTO badges on it and pushed it. The could have called it anything, THEY chose to use the GTO name. They didn't call it the Astre or Ventura or TEMPEST or BONNEVILLE or LeMANS or CATALINA....they opted for GTO. The "general motoring public" would have bought it no matter what they called it, but they were looking to lure in the enthusiast and it failed on them. GM made the decision not to offer more than one major option on the car, again their own doing. Shame on GM for not doing its homework and using the GTO name on such a pedestrian looking vehicle.

Lessons learned may have brought us the G8.....that's a good thing.

Those same lessons may allow the Camaro to survive and thrive this time around. It will be interesting in 18 months to see if the current GM designers can come up with a fresh thought on how to carry the car forward or will the 6th gen be a retro styled 2nd gen?

Bring out the Z28 supercar......lets see that baby....$50K price tag and all...

[1QWIKBIRD]

Total Camaro produced from 1998-2002: About 236,000
Total Camaros produced in 1984 alone: 261,591

Those numbers are worth a laugh or two.

Those numbers are alarming, but it also points to GM's (old GM, not new GM hopefully) inability to properly match production and resources with changing demand. Its not like in 1984 they sold 261,000 and then the following year they sold 40,000.....

You can't blame the consumer for that.

[Frosty]

For all of the GTO haters, how would YOU have designed it? I have to agree with Justin, it actually paid respect to the old GTO's with it not being flashy, low key with power. Don't hate on it because it was leaps and bounds above our Fbodies in terms of quality.

[NastyEllEssWon]

it was a great car. wouldnt mind if they called it something like the g8 coupe, then the next gen couldve made a little bit more sense. like i said, great car...not a gto though. hell they couldve slapped the grand prix name on it and it wouldve sold probably more...or even a chevy badge and call it a monte

[Mike]

So my line of thinking wasn't too far off the mark. GM had a dead beat car on its hands,

they killed the fbody after 2002, heard hell from the enthusiasts for all of 03, and managed to get us another sporty, classy, rear wheel drive v8 coupe in time for the 04 model year, and you complain that they didnt develop a whole new car?

as it has been mentioned a couple times, the original gto WAS A BLAND CAR it was a serious drive train in a run of the mill body. wtf would you expect to see as a current one? an enzo with kidney grills?

[Mike]

For all of the GTO haters, how would YOU have designed it? I have to agree with Justin, it actually paid respect to the old GTO's with it not being flashy, low key with power. Don't hate on it because it was leaps and bounds above our Fbodies in terms of quality.

you are seriously kidding yourself if people bought or didnt buy due to the name, whatever they called it, it would have sold the same

[JL8Jeff]

Total Camaro produced from 1998-2002: About 236,000
Total Camaros produced in 1984 alone: 261,591

Those numbers are worth a laugh or two.

But remember, GM was not advertising the Camaro or Firebird at that point in time because they knew they were shutting down the plant and the Canadian auto workers union that had exclusive rights to build the "Camaro". So those numbers have no meaning.

[Frosty]

you are seriously kidding yourself if people bought or didnt buy due to the name, whatever they called it, it would have sold the same

I agree, I was agreeing with him in the fact that the old GTO's were plain, not flashing but had the power.

For the people complaining about the name...does the Malibu and Monte Carlo pay respect to the old ones? :rofl::rofl: Really now...

[Mike]

I agree, I was agreeing with him in the fact that the old GTO's were plain, not flashing but had the power.

For the people complaining about the name...does the Malibu and Monte Carlo pay respect to the old ones? :rofl::rofl: Really now...

or impalla?
or buicks new regal?

[Knipps]

I disagree that they slapped the GTO name on for the enthusiasts... I think it's quite the opposite. If you asked people what car (from memory) was cooler, TEMPEST or BONNEVILLE or LeMANS or CATALINA or the GTO the non enthusiast would pick the GTO nearly every time. People know the name and I think GM did the right thing this time, going with the name recognition.

[Frosty]

But even then....I'm a car enthusiast and the second car I think of when I hear Pontiac is GTO....certainly not Tempest or LeMans lol

[BigAls87Z28]

Those numbers are alarming, but it also points to GM's (old GM, not new GM hopefully) inability to properly match production and resources with changing demand. Its not like in 1984 they sold 261,000 and then the following year they sold 40,000.....

You can't blame the consumer for that.

4th gens just were not relevent for the market. It had nothing to do with marketing or anything. It had to do with the 4th gen stepping farther away from its base DNA.

[JL8Jeff]

4th gens just were not relevent for the market. It had nothing to do with marketing or anything. It had to do with the 4th gen stepping farther away from its base DNA.

So you're saying the 4th gen was too advanced for it's time! :lol: The 4th gen cars are great cars with comfort, power and decent gas mileage, how is that a bad thing? GM gave up on the 98-02 cars before they even built them knowing they were going to shut the plant down.

[1QWIKBIRD]

you are seriously kidding yourself if people bought or didnt buy due to the name, whatever they called it, it would have sold the same

So using the GTO name was in no way an attempt to bring attention to the car and get people to at least come and look? I bet more than a few people who purchased, especially early over-priced dealer gouged models did in fact buy based on the GTO name plate...has it been called a T1000 or Sunbird there would have been no markup whatsoever.....

But remember, GM was not advertising the Camaro or Firebird at that point in time because they knew they were shutting down the plant and the Canadian auto workers union that had exclusive rights to build the "Camaro". So those numbers have no meaning.

And if given the ability to properly allocate the resources to build the car efficiently, the F-body might have survived, but forces didn't allow GM that flexibility. But that's another discussion in its entirety.

I agree, I was agreeing with him in the fact that the old GTO's were plain, not flashing but had the power.

For the people complaining about the name...does the Malibu and Monte Carlo pay respect to the old ones? :rofl::rofl: Really now...

You can have plain, unflashy styling and still be distinctive. The CTS is not flashy or ENZO-like with kidney gills, but is very distinctive. The G8 is also. And just because GM decided to rush it market is not an excuse they can use to defend its styling.

Nope the Malibu (assuming you are including chevelle here too) and the Monte Carlo are both shadows of their former selves, who suggested they were well appointed names?

or impalla?
or buicks new regal?

I think the LT1 based Impala SS is one of the few times GM got it right in reaching back into history. "Lord Vader, Your Car is Ready"

http://stangbangers.com/94_ChevyImpalaSS_Ad.htm

That was a nice package.

Buick hasn't done anything of significance or success since the Grand National on the performance front. And supercharged v6's in family cars and old people cars don't count either, not they were success stories anyway.

I disagree that they slapped the GTO name on for the enthusiasts... I think it's quite the opposite. If you asked people what car (from memory) was cooler, TEMPEST or BONNEVILLE or LeMANS or CATALINA or the GTO the non enthusiast would pick the GTO nearly every time. People know the name and I think GM did the right thing this time, going with the name recognition.

I don't think you and I are far apart in our thinking....GM purposely used the GTO for the name recognition and easy marketing, but didn't envision the backlash. You say the commoner would most easily recognize the GTO as opposed to other names and I agree that name was chosen for the same reason, but for a different audience. And neither audience was all that impressed with the product....so GM failed on two fronts, not just one.

http://www.automotivetraveler.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=659&Itemid=194

Check out #5 and #3

Chris

[1QWIKBIRD]

4th gens just were not relevent for the market. It had nothing to do with marketing or anything. It had to do with the 4th gen stepping farther away from its base DNA.

What would you say the base DNA is?

I see the Camaro Z28 as a rear drive, V8, manual transmission, sports coupe with excellent handling and braking all wrapped in a clean distinctive body style at a price that is 30%+/- lower than the base Vette in pricing....

So that means I want my Z28 as described above for somewhere in the mid 30K's.

Chris

[Knipps]

Reading #6 I have to say I like the looks of the GTO they picked better than the Monaro, and I think that's really interesting because the current look of the commodore is so much better than the G8 IMO.

[Frosty]

You can have plain, unflashy styling and still be distinctive. The CTS is not flashy or ENZO-like with kidney gills, but is very distinctive.

So then every Pontiac would fit your description sans the Firebird right? The CTS is a bit flashy IMO with the rigid body lines and styling, certainly more flashy than a GTO.

Like or hate the styling, that's fine. But in the true name of the GTO and what it was back in the 60's, Pontiac/GM actually did right. A similar looking model as to what was in their lineup. If everyone was expecting some totally redesigned, stand out on it's own GTO then they don't know what the GTO was back in the day. In fact if the car was completely opposite of what other Pontiac's looked like then the GTO nameplate would be wrong.

I just don't understand what people wanted the car to be. They got a car that was better built than the Fbody, a bit more luxurious and had more than ample power...should GM have given a free blowjob and an 8-ball of coke with each purchase too? :rofl: A lot of dealers did screw up sales due to them being greedy and I would venture to say that a lot of people were hesitant to plop down a good chunk of change on a Pontiac when the Grand Prix, Grand Am and others were known to have stupid **** break all of the time. I know I wouldn't have purchased one new in their respective model years.

I think I've established through my time here that I'm a big critic of GM and don't ride their coattails because I like their cars however I just don't see where the major screw ups were on this car. You make the argument for the lack of trunk space but as far as the styling, quality, power, etc I don't think it's a bad car.

[BigAls87Z28]

So you're saying the 4th gen was too advanced for it's time! :lol: The 4th gen cars are great cars with comfort, power and decent gas mileage, how is that a bad thing? GM gave up on the 98-02 cars before they even built them knowing they were going to shut the plant down.

What would you say the base DNA is?

I see the Camaro Z28 as a rear drive, V8, manual transmission, sports coupe with excellent handling and braking all wrapped in a clean distinctive body style at a price that is 30%+/- lower than the base Vette in pricing....

So that means I want my Z28 as described above for somewhere in the mid 30K's.

Chris

DNA is based on a personal coupe. What the 4th gen did was become a 4 seater Corvette.
The 5th gen splits somewhere in the middle, something a bit more upright then a 4th gen. You dont fall into it, its hood, while long, is not as obtrusive. The rake on the windshield is no where near as bad on the 4th gen.
4th gen is a great performance package, but outside of that it offers nothing. First, second, third and now 5th fit the DNA. 4th gen went way too far with performance.

[BonzoHansen]

4th gen design did something wrong. from what I read it killed off the female demographic, something the other 3 gens never did, nor did mustang (part of he who buys v6 cars discussion). You can't turn away 50% of the market and win too many times.

[1QWIKBIRD]

DNA is based on a personal coupe. What the 4th gen did was become a 4 seater Corvette.
The 5th gen splits somewhere in the middle, something a bit more upright then a 4th gen. You dont fall into it, its hood, while long, is not as obtrusive. The rake on the windshield is no where near as bad on the 4th gen.
4th gen is a great performance package, but outside of that it offers nothing. First, second, third and now 5th fit the DNA. 4th gen went way too far with performance.

Ok. Good points. My firechicken is no fun to get into or out that's for sure.

4th gen design did something wrong. from what I read it killed off the female demographic, something the other 3 gens never did, nor did mustang (part of he who buys v6 cars discussion). You can't turn away 50% of the market and win too many times.

No you can't.

[JL8Jeff]

Bahhh, 4th gens can tow boats better than 1st, 2nd or 3rd gen so it proved its utility. GM didn't build enough V6 4th gens and they put t-tops on too many of them. That runs the price up for stuff people really don't want. A V6 hardtop 4th gen should be a $20K car tops. Forcing people to buy a $30K car will help you lose buyers quickly.

[BonzoHansen]

I remember reading a bunch on the 4th gen after it's demise. both in & out of GM people said most women were turned off by how low it was, the long doors, the poor visibility regarding the nose and so forth. Cost was not something I read very often. Design was.

Of course this does not apply to the ladies here, they are not average. :)

[Tru2Chevy]

A V6 hardtop 4th gen should be a $20K car tops. Forcing people to buy a $30K car will help you lose buyers quickly.

It was....IIRC, Little G's '02 Camaro 3.8 / M5 hardtop car with normal power features and base radio was $19,2xx

- Justin

[1QWIKBIRD]

So then every Pontiac would fit your description sans the Firebird right? The CTS is a bit flashy IMO with the rigid body lines and styling, certainly more flashy than a GTO.

Like or hate the styling, that's fine. But in the true name of the GTO and what it was back in the 60's, Pontiac/GM actually did right. A similar looking model as to what was in their lineup. If everyone was expecting some totally redesigned, stand out on it's own GTO then they don't know what the GTO was back in the day. In fact if the car was completely opposite of what other Pontiac's looked like then the GTO nameplate would be wrong.

I just don't understand what people wanted the car to be. They got a car that was better built than the Fbody, a bit more luxurious and had more than ample power...should GM have given a free blowjob and an 8-ball of coke with each purchase too? :rofl: A lot of dealers did screw up sales due to them being greedy and I would venture to say that a lot of people were hesitant to plop down a good chunk of change on a Pontiac when the Grand Prix, Grand Am and others were known to have stupid **** break all of the time. I know I wouldn't have purchased one new in their respective model years.

I think I've established through my time here that I'm a big critic of GM and don't ride their coattails because I like their cars however I just don't see where the major screw ups were on this car. You make the argument for the lack of trunk space but as far as the styling, quality, power, etc I don't think it's a bad car.

You miss the point as to what the GTO was. You are seeing a car. Tempest was the car. GTO is the iconic name that started the musclecar era. The original GTO in 64 was a dressed up Tempest with the 389 etc. etc.. For 1964 it was a pretty large departure from the automotive norm of the time. So the name GTO represents more than just a car, at least to me. It ushered in a new era of automotive performance.

The 2004-06 version (just like the bogus early to mid 70's Ventura with GTO sticker packages on them, another GM miss step) hardly ushered in anything. That's where GM failed with the GTO.

I never once mentioned trunk space????

[Frosty]

I never once mentioned trunk space????

I never said you mentioned it :confused: If you read my post again I was saying the car wasn't a failure aside from the trunk. ;)

I'm not missing the point, the GTO was really rebadged car with power.

We'll agree to disagree but IMO they continued the name of the GTO just fine...liking the looks is purely subjective.

I still ask again though, what should they have done for a car that was only going to go 3yrs?

[Featherburner]

Of course this does not apply to the ladies here, they are not average. :)Ass kisser.:lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

GTO was not any stretch of the norm?
1964 Tempest GTO got a big engine, manual trans, HD equipment, and chrome hood accents.
I hate when people say it looks like "another Pontiac" when it always was just another Pontiac. I dont get that saying.

http://image.automotive.com/f/images/11078741+pheader/hppp_0901_01_z+1964_pontiac_gto+side_angle.jpg

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~tmdonnad/2004_pontiac_gto_03.jpg

[Frosty]

I hate when people say it looks like "another Pontiac" when it always was just another Pontiac. I dont get that saying.



Thank you :nod:

[1QWIKBIRD]

I never said you mentioned it :confused: If you read my post again I was saying the car wasn't a failure aside from the trunk. ;)

I'm not missing the point, the GTO was really rebadged car with power.

We'll agree to disagree but IMO they continued the name of the GTO just fine...liking the looks is purely subjective.

I still ask again though, what should they have done for a car that was only going to go 3yrs?

oops mis-read the first part....sorry

They should never have called it a GTO. Why not just use the Monaro name or come up with something or reuse the Ventura label? They used the GTO name in an attempt to artificially infuse excitement into an otherwise average looking car and it failed. The car didn't come close to their sales projections of 18,000 per year. Might have been a good car, but not a good GTO.

We agree to disagree.....

[BigAls87Z28]

sold around 15k in the first year, and then around 17k the last two years.
the addition of more power and dual side exhaust helped apparently.

[Frosty]

But what made the 60's GTO that much more special than the body it was built on? Nothing aside from the motor IMO.

[1QWIKBIRD]

I never said you mentioned it :confused: If you read my post again I was saying the car wasn't a failure aside from the trunk. ;)

I'm not missing the point, the GTO was really rebadged car with power.

We'll agree to disagree but IMO they continued the name of the GTO just fine...liking the looks is purely subjective.

I still ask again though, what should they have done for a car that was only going to go 3yrs?

GTO was not any stretch of the norm?
1964 Tempest GTO got a big engine, manual trans, HD equipment, and chrome hood accents.
I hate when people say it looks like "another Pontiac" when it always was just another Pontiac. I dont get that saying.

http://image.automotive.com/f/images/11078741+pheader/hppp_0901_01_z+1964_pontiac_gto+side_angle.jpg

http://www.eng.ysu.edu/~tmdonnad/2004_pontiac_gto_03.jpg

Thank you :nod:

It was just another Pontiac in lots of ways, except that this one particular model carries with it the legacy of starting the muscle car era. So if you are into bringing back and the honoring past, why do it with a rebadged dead beat model that offered little visual appeal and only base level V8 performance? If they knew it was a 3 year run, why not at least offer some sort of unique engine package upgrade or do something to give the car some pop, something....GM tried to cash in quick by diving head first into the parts bin, came up with the GTO and well...now all we have are our opinions and the GTO is on the sidelines (again) with the rest of Pontiac soon to follow....

Chris

[BigAls87Z28]

You keep refering to it as a dead beat model?
The Monaro was a huuuuge success in Oz, and got amazing reviews in England when it was sent there.
Dead beat? Not by a long shot. The whole chassis was being replaced. GM NA did not give Holden the go ahead to build a coupe, and its why we dont see one now.

[1QWIKBIRD]

http://media.wheels.topscms.com/images/bf/84/df8fa5fe4285b8463b2353f9c3fa.jpeg

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/autoreview/400x266/2004-06-Pontiac-GTO-05129501990001.jpg

quick....which one is the GTO which one is the Grand AM?????:rofl:

relax...just kidding.....

So why does the Mustang succeed anyway?:lol:

[1QWIKBIRD]

You keep refering to it as a dead beat model?
The Monaro was a huuuuge success in Oz, and got amazing reviews in England when it was sent there.
Dead beat? Not by a long shot. The whole chassis was being replaced. GM NA did not give Holden the go ahead to build a coupe, and its why we dont see one now.

What I mean is they brought the model over knowing it had a shelf life and was going to be discontinued...thats what I mean by dead beat.

[Blacdout96]

That's greatfor us it got rave reviews in England, and was a success in Oz.....If we lived there, but we don't, and thus why it's became a controversal car here in the States.

[LS1Hawk]

The argument has been made that the last generation GTOs were what the car would have evolved into had it not been discontinued in the '70s. GM had every intention to not market this car as a muscle car. Their idea at time was that it would be put on par with a BMW 3 - 5 series and take Pontiac away from the slab-sided, plastic cladding cars of the '90s.

[BigAls87Z28]

That's greatfor us it got rave reviews in England, and was a success in Oz.....If we lived there, but we don't, and thus why it's became a controversal car here in the States.

It got great reviews here as well. It as the best car GM offerd at the time by a good distance.

[Slow-V6]

I loved everything about the 04-06 GTOs. They were really nice cars that had pretty much every options you could get. My Uncle has a 69 GTO and after driving my Uncles car and a 05 GTO I would take the 05 over my uncles Ram air GTO any day. It doesnt look as mean as the 60's cars but it evolved into a modern day sports car. Not to mention 04-06 GTO's were the fastest and best handling GTO's made. I mean if the orignal GTO's were the best thing to own then why did they stop making them? They kept the F-body pretty much the same car since 1967. Crappy driving, fast but not very practical, Very mean looking, and look what happened to them.

When I had my Foxbody mustang after having it for a while I thought it looked and drove just like a For Tempo/Escort.

[Slow-V6]

I havent really read all the posts but has anyone mentioned the attempt Ford had to bring back the Thunderbird?? I believe that was a mistake on there part.

[1972LT1]

Mustangs are selling because Ford isn't charging people 5-8k over list like Chevy is doing with the Camaro.

[NastyEllEssWon]

4th gen > 5th gen

[WildBillyT]

I loved everything about the 04-06 GTOs. They were really nice cars that had pretty much every options you could get. My Uncle has a 69 GTO and after driving my Uncles car and a 05 GTO I would take the 05 over my uncles Ram air GTO any day. It doesnt look as mean as the 60's cars but it evolved into a modern day sports car. Not to mention 04-06 GTO's were the fastest and best handling GTO's made. I mean if the orignal GTO's were the best thing to own then why did they stop making them? They kept the F-body pretty much the same car since 1967. Crappy driving, fast but not very practical, Very mean looking, and look what happened to them.

When I had my Foxbody mustang after having it for a while I thought it looked and drove just like a For Tempo/Escort.

They weren't, and that's besides the point. The gas crisis and environmental laws killed off that entire era. It's not like the market just 'moved on'.

In the end the GTO was a rebadged Nova.

[LS1Hawk]

They weren't, and that's besides the point. The gas crisis and environmental laws killed off that entire era. It's not like the market just 'moved on'.

In the end the GTO was a rebadged Nova.

Sadly, yes. In reality the GTO was done in '72. In '73 it went back to being an option on the LeMans, and in '74 it was an option on the Ventura.

[edpontiac91]

The end was coming because of HIGH insurance costs and the gas crisis. By the late '60's these muscle cars had also become bogged down with weight and options. What started as a low cost model in the Plymouth line (Road Runner) became a luxo barge with the GTX. Even sales for the iconic "JUDGE" started to fall around 1970 and with the advent of low-octane unleaded gas bringing the H.P. ratings down (companies had to reduce compression ratios), the muscle era was just about gone by 1971. I have to admit (showing my age) that having had a new 1965 tri-power GTO and a 1967 H.O. GTO and a 1969 Impala SS 427, they were a hellva good time to have been in. Drive-In's, car hops, girls, drag racing, weekends at the shore LOL. Did I leave anything out that I wouldn't give my right arm to go back to? :lol:

[NastyEllEssWon]

bogged down with weight, options and safety features was the death of the gto you say???? sounds a lot like the hideousness they call the new camaro

[WildBillyT]

bogged down with weight, options and safety features was the death of the gto you say???? sounds a lot like the hideousness they call the new camaro

No, that's not what he said. The death of the original muscle cars was due to:

1.) Rising gas prices
2.) Federal emissions standards
3.) Safety standards (seen the bumper on a '69 Camaro, or worse, a C3 Corvette lately?)
4.) Rising insurance costs (insurance companies catching on to the fact that the "1970 Chevelle V8" is not a 307/glide but an LS6/TH400)

and probably more that I'm missing. People still wanted the cars. ****, people still do NOW.

[Slow-V6]

bogged down with weight, options and safety features was the death of the gto you say???? sounds a lot like the hideousness they call the new camaro

That is probably pretty much the Definition of a Muscle car!

[NastyEllEssWon]

That is probably pretty much the Definition of a Muscle car!




bogged down with weight options and safety features???? :shock:

[BigAls87Z28]

I havent really read all the posts but has anyone mentioned the attempt Ford had to bring back the Thunderbird?? I believe that was a mistake on there part.

Tbird was a huge failure.

Mustangs are selling because Ford isn't charging people 5-8k over list like Chevy is doing with the Camaro.

Um...Mustangs arent selling well at all. Camaro came within 5k units year vs year to the Mustang, and the Mustang had 6 months on the Camaro....
Second, Chevy doesnt sell the Camaro, dealers sell the Camaro.
Ford would and did charge mark ups in 05 when the Mustang first launched the all new model.
GM is still selling Camaro's faster then the Mustang, even with dealers marking them up.

Again, Ford, GM, Chrysler, anyone cannot dictate what the dealers sell the car for. It is illegal.

[Slow-V6]

bogged down with weight options and safety features???? :shock:
I know thats what my 79 Formula was. I know its not a true Muscle car but it had a 6.6 liter that made a insane 160hp and 340 ftlbs. It ran a low 17 in the 1/4 mile!! My uncles 69 GTO was and still is a low 15 second car with a 400 ci motor in it!! I like the old school cars but if you give me a choice between a 68 GTO vrs a 05 GTO I will pick the 05 GTO.

[BonzoHansen]

Too bad that 2nd gen bird will always be sexier. And you can make it go fast and handle and stop real easy. Hard to make the late model gto sexy.

[edpontiac91]

Too bad that 2nd gen bird will always be sexier. And you can make it go fast and handle and stop real easy. Hard to make the late model gto sexy.

I had a 1979 Solor Gold Trans Am bought new for $8,200. It had the WS5 package and the Olds 403 engine that with a 3,900 lb. car was a real pig. After adding 3:42 gears, a reworked carb and dist., opened up the hood scoop, removed cat and added a test pipe and had a true dual exhaust made for it, the car ran a best of 14.9 @ 94 mph. Biggest problem was vapor lock during a hot summer day.

[Slow-V6]

I had a 1979 Solor Gold Trans Am bought new for $8,200. It had the WS5 package and the Olds 403 engine that with a 3,900 lb. car was a real pig. After adding 3:42 gears, a reworked carb and dist., opened up the hood scoop, removed cat and added a test pipe and had a true dual exhaust made for it, the car ran a best of 14.9 @ 94 mph. Biggest problem was vapor lock during a hot summer day.

My 98 V6 Firebird Went 14.9@93mph with a catback, Airlid, and Headers..

[WildBillyT]

My 98 V6 Firebird Went 14.9@93mph with a catback, Airlid, and Headers..

Not a shot at Ed, but the Olds 403 is not a strong runner. Even now you can barely buy parts for it, and it has cooling/gasket issues.

[edpontiac91]

Not a shot at Ed, but the Olds 403 is not a strong runner. Even now you can barely buy parts for it, and it has cooling/gasket issues.

What I was trying to say that bone stock these cars were hard pressed to run mid 16's in the 1/4. Even the limited production 6.6 Pontiac engine was only 180 h.p. The compression ratio on the 6.6 Olds motor was about 8.5 to 1 and was rated at 160 h.p. It's biggest problem was the cat converter which was the pancake design and really choked the exhaust. It wouldn't rev over 4,200 rpm but after it was removed it would pull to 4,800. Getting those T/A to run in the low 15's was a BIG DEAL in 1980 because the 4.9 turbo that replaced it was even more of a pig.

[NastyEllEssWon]

I know thats what my 79 Formula was. I know its not a true Muscle car but it had a 6.6 liter that made a insane 160hp and 340 ftlbs. It ran a low 17 in the 1/4 mile!! My uncles 69 GTO was and still is a low 15 second car with a 400 ci motor in it!! I like the old school cars but if you give me a choice between a 68 GTO vrs a 05 GTO I will pick the 05 GTO.





there hasnt been a true muscle car since like '72

[WildBillyT]

What I was trying to say that bone stock these cars were hard pressed to run mid 16's in the 1/4. Even the limited production 6.6 Pontiac engine was only 180 h.p. The compression ratio on the 6.6 Olds motor was about 8.5 to 1 and was rated at 160 h.p. It's biggest problem was the cat converter which was the pancake design and really choked the exhaust. It wouldn't rev over 4,200 rpm but after it was removed it would pull to 4,800. Getting those T/A to run in the low 15's was a BIG DEAL in 1980 because the 4.9 turbo that replaced it was even more of a pig.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at. The engines were way underbuilt and the primitive emissions stuff (pellet-style cats) choked them really bad. A 1978 Z28 had 185 hp with a .390/.410 camshaft and 8.2:1 compression. Ouch.

there hasnt been a true muscle car since like '72

'74. The Super Duty Trans Am. Pontiac opened the muscle car door and also closed it 10 years later.

[Slow-V6]

there hasnt been a true muscle car since like '72

Very true.. But just to compare a true muscle car to a modern day V6. My Uncles 69 GTO Ran a 15.5 bone stock he said. My 98 V6 Firebird Ran a 15.3 Bone stock!! I am not Talking crap on the old school cars. I am just saying that after owning a 30 year old Firebird I wouldnt buy another one. It would take way to much money to get them up to speed with the new cars and I like having options in a car. I like having a car that can handle, Brake, Accelerate, Run 13's stock with the A/C running.. Thats just me.. Old school cars were bad ass but They are just not for me.

[WildBillyT]

Very true.. But just to compare a true muscle car to a modern day V6. My Uncles 69 GTO Ran a 15.5 bone stock he said. My 98 V6 Firebird Ran a 15.3 Bone stock!! I am not Talking crap on the old school cars. I am just saying that after owning a 30 year old Firebird I wouldnt buy another one. It would take way to much money to get them up to speed with the new cars and I like having options in a car. I like having a car that can handle, Brake, Accelerate, Run 13's stock with the A/C running.. Thats just me.. Old school cars were bad ass but They are just not for me.

I hope you are not talking about some of the 68-72 cars, like that GTO...

[BonzoHansen]

I hope you are not talking about some of the 68-72 cars, like that GTO...

Bah, even a 74 GTO.

[edpontiac91]

When I bought my new 1989 TTA I was invited to do a shoot out @ Raceway Park paid for by High Performance Pontiac magazine. It was during the week and for several hours it was just me against a 1965 GTO tri-power and a bone stock TTA. Mine had several mods such as a prom chip/ 160 stat and a test pipe(cat removed). The GTO's best time was 14.84 @ 93.75 mph vs the stock TTA was 13.74 @ 101.80 mph. I ran a best of 13.22 @ 105.38. To quote the GTO owner "I was amazed at the performance gain from such inexpensive changes such as a chip, bypasss pipe and colder stat. I would have to add headers, a bigger cam and some head work to equal that performance gain". This 3 page article was in the December 1989 H.P. Pontiac magazine. I was amazed at the performance gain that my son got with his G8 GT with a tune and all he had to do was download the info onto his computer and they sent him a program back that included all his upgrades.

[zuuhlsT/A]

hey. Just in case you did'nt know... 5.0 is back and has 412hp. I'll still run one just to see what happens.. i won't fail......:mrgreen:

[Frosty]

hey. Just in case you did'nt know... 5.0 is back and has 412hp. I'll still run one just to see what happens.. i won't fail......:mrgreen:

Yes, we already had a thread about it where people were whining that there was Mustang discussions on a Fbody site :rolleyes:

[miketa95]

I can't believe what I was reading about 05-06 GTO's. I know someone who actually let me borrow their 06 for a day. Bright red outside, red interior inside. LS2, 6 speed... I wanted to sell my Trans Am immediately and go buy one. In bright red the car was not boring looking by any means. And as a matter of fact, most females love the look of the GTO, whereas a Trans Am is a little bit much, and even a little bit awkward looking. And even to those who think it does look boring, ever heard of a sleeper? They are a blast to drive, and at the same time a thousand times more comfortable that a 4th gen... or a mustang for that matter. I think the issue is that a reviewer writes "this car looks like a grand am" and everyone else thinks the same thing.

Speaking of mustangs, I know three mustang owners. All of them love their cars, but all of them will admit they quickly got bored with their lacking performance after the newness of the car wore off. They want to modify, but the only thing really worth the money is a supercharger for those 4.6's, and thats a hefty amount of money to put down on mods all at once. My girlfriends dad, for example, fell in love with a 08 bullitt mustang at the lot and paid 32k for it. It's not slow, but knowing his friends g37 sedan is faster makes him cringe. He's been looking for pre-owned gt500's and c6's for a while now.

[LS1Hawk]

It just amazes me how long it took Ford to get with the program in the power wars. When a '10 GT not only has less power than the new Camaro/Challenger, but 8-year-old F-Bodies...it looks pathetic.

[Slow-V6]

Ford is Pathetic!! My 96 GT had 215 Hp Stock!! A 96 V6 Camaro had 200 hp stock!! They make the Mustang so that anyone can drive it. When I had mine it felt like I was driving my Moms Tempo. It feels like driving any other car out on the road. Thats why they sold more then the 4th gens ( and that they were cheap POS's!).

[Slow-V6]

When I bought my new 1989 TTA I was invited to do a shoot out @ Raceway Park paid for by High Performance Pontiac magazine. It was during the week and for several hours it was just me against a 1965 GTO tri-power and a bone stock TTA. Mine had several mods such as a prom chip/ 160 stat and a test pipe(cat removed). The GTO's best time was 14.84 @ 93.75 mph vs the stock TTA was 13.74 @ 101.80 mph. I ran a best of 13.22 @ 105.38. To quote the GTO owner "I was amazed at the performance gain from such inexpensive changes such as a chip, bypasss pipe and colder stat. I would have to add headers, a bigger cam and some head work to equal that performance gain". This 3 page article was in the December 1989 H.P. Pontiac magazine. I was amazed at the performance gain that my son got with his G8 GT with a tune and all he had to do was download the info onto his computer and they sent him a program back that included all his upgrades.

Thats what I miss about having my V6 Firebird. I remember going to Pontiacs in the park and beating almost all of the Old School GTO's in the 1/4mile. They would say to me " what is my little V6 gonna run? 16's). Then I run a 14.2 on motor @ 98mph and they all really start to watch. My Little 3.8 taking out 6.6 liters!!

[Knipps]

My friend was embarrassed when his '01 Mustang GT had +/- 5hp compared to my mom's 06 Eclipse GT