Choosing A Cam

[Stupercharged]

Hey guys between tax returns and gaining hours at work I'm back in the market for a cam, and my main idea is to try to run a cam only bolt on LT1. So I figured I'd ask for some ideas on either specs to get a custom grind cam or a cam that is common that will make the most power for a LT1 with stock heads. I want the car to still be some what streetable and I have a 3400 converter with a built 4l60e , Bolt ons will include tb,long tubes, Cai , Dumped exhaust with H pipe nd dynamax bullets,depending on the cam i will decide on different rocker ratios (1.6 or 1.52). Car also has 3.73s in the rear and i'm looking to spin the motor to around 6k between shifts. Lemme hear some input...

[ib4200]

your not gonna touch the valves/ springs while the heads are off?

[LTb1ow]

Hey guys between tax returns and gaining hours at work I'm back in the market for a cam, and my main idea is to try to run a cam only bolt on LT1. So I figured I'd ask for some ideas on either specs to get a custom grind cam or a cam that is common that will make the most power for a LT1 with stock heads. I want the car to still be some what streetable and I have a 3400 converter with a built 4l60e , Bolt ons will include tb,long tubes, Cai , Dumped exhaust with H pipe nd dynamax bullets,depending on the cam i will decide on different rocker ratios (1.6 or 1.52). Car also has 3.73s in the rear and i'm looking to spin the motor to around 6k between shifts. Lemme hear some input...

Only 6k shifts?

Hot cam, CC502, XFI466, CC305, Crane 227, or an LPE 211/219..

They all call for 6000-6200 shifts.

your not gonna touch the valves/ springs while the heads are off?

I assumed he was, goes hand in hand with any cam swap IMO.

[ib4200]

i vote for the 466

[sweetbmxrider]

cc503

you are leaving the heads untouched though?

[Whiplash Performance]

We can get you a custom ground cam or an off the shelf Comp Cam.

PM me your e-mail and i'll send you a custom ground cam form

[Stupercharged]

well i mean i could shift higher then 6k but i guess nothing over 6600 lmao. And I already have comp cam valve springs they were used on a cc503 with the same heads before me and my valves seem to be good. I was contemplating milling the heads a hair. I was looking at cams like cc306 , gm 847 .... things reletive to that

[LTb1ow]

well i mean i could shift higher then 6k but i guess nothing over 6800 lmao. And I already have springs and my valves seem to be good. I was looking at cams like cc306 , gm 847 .... things reletive to that

234/242 .575/.595 112lsa... gonna want a lot of RPM...
On stock heads and bottom end?

Good luck.

[WildBillyT]

234/242 .575/.595 112lsa... gonna want a lot of RPM...
On stock heads and bottom end?

Good luck.

Yeah, don't over cam your motor or build a mismatched combo with the intent of "adding proper stuff later".

[LTb1ow]

Yeah, don't over cam your motor or build a mismatched combo with the intent of "adding proper stuff later".

Yurp, I would highly suggest getting your heads ported or picking up a set of aftermarket heads.

That or stick with a smaller, less aggressive cam... XFI lobes will want beehive springs, and things will add up fast.. etc. Also, if you had planned on spraying/boosting it later on, be wary of the LSA of the cam and its overlap..

[Stupercharged]

234/242 .575/.595 112lsa... gonna want a lot of RPM...
On stock heads and bottom end?

Good luck.


Its been done before... I'm trying to put down impressive track numbers on a cam only LT1. I figure not many go for it everyone gets heads , so i'd like to be different. the stock bottom ends arent that bad, i've seen many hold power real well.

[LTb1ow]

Its been done before... I'm trying to put down impressive track numbers on a cam only LT1. I figure not many go for it everyone gets heads , so i'd like to be different. the stock bottom ends arent that bad, i've seen many hold power real well.

Hold power, sure. Live long spinning past 6400, no.

An 847 may be doable stock headed on an M6 car, but its gonna suck on an auto. Granted it will prob pull like a beast way up top, but for daily driving, its gonna be a slouch.

[Whiplash Performance]

Its been done before... I'm trying to put down impressive track numbers on a cam only LT1. I figure not many go for it everyone gets heads , so i'd like to be different. the stock bottom ends arent that bad, i've seen many hold power real well.

What's your goal track time wise?

[Stupercharged]

goal is to touch 11s , Devin PM me your number so i could txt you and maybe get a cam through you.

[LTb1ow]

goal is to touch 11s , Devin PM me your number so i could txt you and maybe get a cam through you.

Well tin can the car, shift round 6800, and just maybe.

[WildBillyT]

Gonna need a custom cam for sure IMO. Some off the shelfers might be close, but you are limiting your flow up top a lot. Too much cam and it will be soggy, too little and you will be giving up power.

[Stupercharged]

Yeah I was talking to Lloyd Elliot before and I basically have all the specs for the cam I'd get through them...

[sweetbmxrider]

do you want to drive this thing often or just to the track and race?

[JerzLT1]

you're going to need a baby cam to shift it that low. my cam specs were 226/240 .600/.600 108 LSA and i was shifting it at 6500. its not really that bad but you wont be doing it with an 847 lol. i wouldnt suggest that cam without a built bottom end or more displacement

[S.J.SLEEPER]

call Camotion bob knows his stuff.

[Pampered-Z]

I've installed allot of the cams in this tread, so I'll throw in my .02

Hot cam, CC502 and LPE 211/219 all too small for 11s, you'll peak before 6Gs because of the small duration the engine will run out of air. Besides, with an automatic you want the 219/219, not the 211 on the intake side! Either way, the short duration/high lift makes power down low not up top!

I'd look at cams like the 503 or even the Comp Cams "Extreme 230" = 224/230, .502/.510 + 112 LSA. Actually going to be installing one in a few weeks on a bone stock LT1. Plan is to add shorty headers and 1.6 rockers later so this will make for a nice "street" cam only needing to bump up the stock shift point slightly. Will be a fun little ride.

As far as the "big cams" not good with stock heads? Well, you aren't getting the full potential but,,,,

847 cam (using 1.5 rockers) , Mac shorties (with cats), 3600 stall, 3:42 gears, CAI and DRs. Heads have never been off the car = 12.2s all day long. revlimit 6600

Did anohter using a 305 w/LE heads, long tubes, stall and 3:73s also going 12.2s. rev limit 6400.

Both of these are street driven and are full wieght cars.

Can you tell I'm not a fan of spinning stockers up high? I too like to target 6500 on stock bottom ends. If you have good springs matched to the cam, and a good oiling system ( upgrade pump = spring ) you should be fine setting your shift point in the 6200-6300 range.

[Stupercharged]

Yeah as for oiling system I have a melling high volume oil pump. The owner before me had a cc 503 with the same heads and springs that i have now (purchased them with the car) and same general setup and he said he ran a 12.1 if im correct. So I deffinightly want to top that.

[sweetbmxrider]

gotta watch with high volume pumps. from what i heard, they can suck a stock pan dry. usually you want high pressure and most accomplish this by installing the gm white spring IIRC. high volume oil pump will also rob some ponies.

[WildBillyT]

gotta watch with high volume pumps. from what i heard, they can suck a stock pan dry. usually you want high pressure and most accomplish this by installing the gm white spring IIRC. high volume oil pump will also rob some ponies.

Do LT1's use a regular M55/M55HV like the Gen I's do?

[RamAir95TA]

Do LT1's use a regular M55/M55HV like the Gen I's do?

Yes they do. Although nowadays LT1 guys stick with the Melling Select pumps (10552 and 10554, high volume and standard volume respectively).

I used the 10552 high volume pump for my 383, but only because I have a modified oil system and a 7-quart pan.

A high volume pump for 90% of builds nowadays is not needed and just puts unnecessary stress on the oil pump drive gear.

[Pampered-Z]

Do LT1's use a regular M55/M55HV like the Gen I's do?

Yes, but if used with a stock pan and spinning near 7G's can suck the pan dry. The better route is to go with the stock pump or M55 and swap in a GM white spring to add just a little more pressure.

[WildBillyT]

Yes they do. Although nowadays LT1 guys stick with the Melling Select pumps (10552 and 10554, high volume and standard volume respectively).

I used the 10552 high volume pump for my 383, but only because I have a modified oil system and a 7-quart pan.

A high volume pump for 90% of builds nowadays is not needed and just puts unnecessary stress on the oil pump drive gear.

Well, I mentioned this because of the casting change of the M55x units and their habit of breaking during high performance use. They even come with a disclaimer. The "Melling Select" is Melling's high peformance line.

I went with a Milodon pump because of all of this BS. Melling may have redesigned the pumps in the past year or so but I didn't want to risk it.

[RamAir95TA]

Well, I mentioned this because of the casting change of the M55x units and their habit of breaking during high performance use. They even come with a disclaimer. The "Melling Select" is Melling's high peformance line.

I went with a Milodon pump because of all of this BS. Melling may have redesigned the pumps in the past year or so but I didn't want to risk it.

Yep - the LT1 crowd is familiar with the M155 disclaimer (although a rep at Melling told me they have fixed the issue but I find that hard to believe). Whenever I recommend a build I ALWAYS suggest the 10552 or 10554 select pumps. I'm using a 10552 on my 383.

Milodon also makes good pumps.

[WildBillyT]

Yep - the LT1 crowd is familiar with the M155 disclaimer (although a rep at Melling told me they have fixed the issue but I find that hard to believe). Whenever I recommend a build I ALWAYS suggest the 10552 or 10554 select pumps. I'm using a 10552 on my 383.

Milodon also makes good pumps.

Yeah, my only bitch about mine is that their "press fit" pickup didn't even come close to fitting properly.

Sorry for the derail to the OP...

[Pampered-Z]

Yeah as for oiling system I have a melling high volume oil pump. The owner before me had a cc 503 with the same heads and springs that i have now (purchased them with the car) and same general setup and he said he ran a 12.1 if im correct. So I deffinightly want to top that.


Getting back on track. So if you have the 503 in the car and are looking for 11s, why not leave the cam and do heads or something else. Going with a bigger cam probably isn't going to give you the gaims now that better flowing heads would.

[Stupercharged]

I dont have a cc503 in the car I have a roller nd and 93 block and some 94 heads with comp cam springs and a ported throttle body and a nice holley tb but no cam...

also everyone tries to run heads cam i'm looking for something different

[ib4200]

cam only isnt really "different"

[RamAir95TA]

cam only isnt really "different"

True story.

[sweetbmxrider]

we aren't talking stock ls heads either that flow over 300 cfm stock....

[LTb1ow]

also everyone trys to run heads cam i'm looking for something different

So heads/cam/stall/boost. 8-)

[ib4200]

So heads/cam/stall/boost. 8-)

yes, twin turbo with nos 2Jz swap

[LTb1ow]

yes, twin turbo with nos 2Jz swap

No.

But really, there is not much that has not been done, the only thing that I can think of that would be quite original would be to retrofit a roots blower to fit under the hood. Its been done a few times, all custom one offs.

That would be more impressive than a tin fished cam only car IMO.

Or, not to popular yet, would be the EFI24X LS1 PCM conversion.

[Stupercharged]

So heads/cam/stall/boost. 8-)

lmao i thought about it but ill have to build the bottom end for it. And I rarely see many lt1 guys run cam only setups w/ out heads that can run decent times.

[LTb1ow]

http://www.herronperformance.com/assets/images/2HPwheelup.jpg
http://www.herronperformance.com/html/shop_car.html

More impressive to go fast with a full interior IMO.

Just doing a cam, is well... very LS1 like.... :wink:

[sweetbmxrider]

lmao i thought about it but ill have to build the bottom end for it. And I rarely see many lt1 guys run cam only setups w/ out heads that can run decent times.

reason being the heads don't flow enough and/or !driveability/reliability with the big ass cam. its your car, really just don't wanna see you disappointed with it. having the stock heads ported really helps a lot.

[LTb1ow]

lmao i thought about it but ill have to build the bottom end for it. And I rarely see many lt1 guys run cam only setups w/ out heads that can run decent times.

And this doesn't scream to you, that its not a good route to go down?

[NJ Torque]

And this doesn't scream to you, that its not a good route to go down?

:lol::lol:

[Stupercharged]

And this doesn't scream to you, that its not a good route to go down?

Oh it screams great idea , Its says dont bother getting headers when its only a few hundred more to run reverse turbo headers and a turbo in front. I mean i do have the room with my fancy radiator and all.....

But it also screams and your total is :shock:

[LTb1ow]

Oh it screams great idea , Its says dont bother getting headers when its only a few hundred more to run reverse turbo headers and a turbo in front. I mean i do have the room with my fancy radiator and all.....

But it also screams and your total is :shock:

Front mount turbo is not original either.

Since you have no motor, throw a rotary in there. That would be original.

In all seriousness though, why not just get a set of ported heads and just go for a fast car?

[Stupercharged]

because I'm going for a fast car on stock heads, just to prove that it can be achieved.....

[LTb1ow]

because I'm going for a fast car on stock heads, just to prove that it can be achieved.....

If you wanna beat your head on teh wall, so be it.

Good luck.

[Stupercharged]

hey your the one barely in the 12s on a h/c and shot.....

[LTb1ow]

hey your the one barely in the 12s on a h/c and shot.....

That is neither here nor there, all I am saying is that a cam only setup for max results will result in crappy daily driving and put a stock shortblock in the fire...

[sweetbmxrider]

because I'm going for a fast car on stock heads, just to prove that it can be achieved.....

here, http://www.malcams.com/legacy/misc/headflow.htm
this should help enlighten you to what we are trying to say. figure le2's advertise about 275 intake 190 exhaust flow. then see that most guys run low 12's to mid 11's. average that out to high 11's and then you see what we mean. stock untouched lt1 heads simply don't flow enough. it is possible to get a cam only lt1 into the 11's but its going to be a crap show on the street IMO. whatever you do, keep us up to speed 8-)

hey your the one barely in the 12s on a h/c and shot.....

you can't count him :lol: jerzlt1 is 11.5ish IIRC on the same top end setup. engine performance really shows in the trap speed though, not et

[transmaro93]

to put this in simplest terms for you and im no expert but just learning while i was building my car... your heads will only flow as much as possible... so if you want to do a true cam only car... your best bet would be to pull the heads and get them flow tested to see what they are capable of... and then you can spec you cam to that... if your heads dont flow **** past 490 lift (probably what stockers are like) and your cam is pushing 550+ lift (306 cams and 847 cams) your just shooting your self in the foot and your going end up loosing power that way.... then while the heads are off you can do a valve job and springs also... but thats what i would say if your dead set on this stock heads junk... thats the only real way your going to get the best possible set up in my eyes... as said above keeps us posted...

[ib4200]

do a cams only Lt5 swap

[Stupercharged]

Oh I kno stock heads dont flowwell but i'd rather say i touched 11s on bone stock heads and be part of that few.Im not crazy concerned about drivability on the streets as long as it runs and moves i'll be happy lol. It will just be one of those little achievements where after i can say now what can I run with heads :w00t:

[Blacdout96]

Aren't heads off a police car known to flow better then Camaro LT1 heads stock for stock? I know you'd kinda be downgrading from aluminum heads to cast iron, but technically they're stock heads :lol:

[JerzLT1]

hey your the one barely in the 12s on a h/c and shot.....

yeah well im the one that went 11.53 with heads/cam a 6spd and a stock bottom end and im telling you its stupid. if you're trying to save money thats one thing but throw a cam in it thats going to like heads later on. youll regret it if you dont

[RamAir95TA]

Aren't heads off a police car known to flow better then Camaro LT1 heads stock for stock? I know you'd kinda be downgrading from aluminum heads to cast iron, but technically they're stock heads :lol:

The iron heads do flow marginally better, but whatever gains they provide would easily be offset by the added weight.

yeah well im the one that went 11.53 with heads/cam a 6spd and a stock bottom end and im telling you its stupid. if you're trying to save money thats one thing but throw a cam in it thats going to like heads later on. youll regret it if you dont

True story.

[Stupercharged]

yeah well im the one that went 11.53 with heads/cam a 6spd and a stock bottom end and im telling you its stupid. if you're trying to save money thats one thing but throw a cam in it thats going to like heads later on. youll regret it if you dont

This is just gonna be my cam only go fast set up I already spoke with lloyd elliot and told him the deal and he says its gonna be hard to obtain but it is possible with stock heads, I already have the specs of the cam that he'll make up for me. I just want this motor to run while i build another one.....

[JerzLT1]

whats gonna be hard to obtain? 11s with stock heads? i went 12.51 stock internals and stock torque converter with minimal weight reduction

[Pampered-Z]

Sorry, don't understand why everyone is so against putting a bigger cam in the car now?It's been done for years! If the long term plan is to add heads or other upgrades later why advise to buy a small cam that will have little resale vaule and waste money on gaskets etc. Granted your leaving a bit on the table with stock heads, but you can always upgrade them later if desired. What if you go with something like a 305 cam and end up not hitting your goal? Going to put the 305 and go 306?

[RamAir95TA]

Sorry, don't understand why everyone is so against putting a bigger cam in the car now?It's been done for years! If the long term plan is to add heads or other upgrades later why advise to buy a small cam that will have little resale vaule and waste money on gaskets etc. Granted your leaving a bit on the table with stock heads, but you can always upgrade them later if desired. What if you go with something like a 305 cam and end up not hitting your goal? Going to put the 305 and go 306?

The only reason I advise against putting a bigger cam limited by stock heads is because you will have more usable power with a smaller grind. Larger cams diminish low-end power and move the power band much higher in the RPM range, beyond where the stock heads can support. A smaller cam will provide the same gains in the upper RPMs approaching stock head limitation without sacrificing the bottom end. I ran the XE 236/242 for awhile with full bolt-ons and trapped 108mph. Guys with much smaller cams are trapping 110+. Drivability wasn't an issue with that particular cam, but the performance wasn't what I had expected (5 years ago).

But if the OP is planning on doing heads in the future and isn't too concerned with overall performance right now, running a larger cam on stock heads won't hurt anything. :)

JMHO!

[JerzLT1]

The only reason I advise against putting a bigger cam limited by stock heads is because you will have more usable power with a smaller grind. Larger cams diminish low-end power and move the power band much higher in the RPM range, beyond where the stock heads can support. A smaller cam will provide the same gains in the upper RPMs approaching stock head limitation without sacrificing the bottom end. I ran the XE 236/242 for awhile with full bolt-ons and trapped 108mph. Guys with much smaller cams are trapping 110+. Drivability wasn't an issue with that particular cam, but the performance wasn't what I had expected (5 years ago).

But if the OP is planning on doing heads in the future and isn't too concerned with overall performance right now, running a larger cam on stock heads won't hurt anything. :)

JMHO!

i agree, a large cam bring choked off where its supposed to make power isnt going to produce results. the motor is currently apart, im still not seeing the point in rushing it together while the heads are off just to do a cam only build. again, if money is an issue thats one thing but if its not then this just seems like beating your head against a wall.

btw Joe, i trapped 110 with only bolt ons :)

[RamAir95TA]

i agree, a large cam bring choked off where its supposed to make power isnt going to produce results. the motor is currently apart, im still not seeing the point in rushing it together while the heads are off just to do a cam only build. again, if money is an issue thats one thing but if its not then this just seems like beating your head against a wall.

btw Joe, i trapped 110 with only bolt ons :)

110mph with bolt-ons, eh? You do know Atco IS downhill, right? :D

[transmaro93]

ram air what cam are you running in your t/a... now?

[RamAir95TA]

ram air what cam are you running in your t/a... now?

It's a relatively small custom-grind AI cam, 23x/24x, around .600" lift on a 108 lobe.

[JerzLT1]

110mph with bolt-ons, eh? You do know Atco IS downhill, right? :D

with an auto too :) and if its downhill then i guess you dont reeeeeeeeeally have a 10 second car :lol:

[transmaro93]

It's a relatively small custom-grind AI cam, 23x/24x, around .600" lift on a 108 lobe.

whats the thought behind the low number lsa... thats not that small of a cam.. thats around what im running... i was told any higher than that on a HR i would have trouble making vacuum... your stroked right?

[JerzLT1]

Joe were going to be running almost the same cam but mine is on a 112 for nitrous. and i have a single plane with LE heads rather than AI

[RamAir95TA]

whats the thought behind the low number lsa... thats not that small of a cam.. thats around what im running... i was told any higher than that on a HR i would have trouble making vacuum... your stroked right?

Yes, my motor is stroked to a 383. I have no problems with braking, although I will probably still pick up a reserve canister.

The 108 lobe came recommended by AI for a healthy torque increase, higher cylinder pressures, and a narrower powerband.

[transmaro93]

Yes, my motor is stroked to a 383. I have no problems with braking, although I will probably still pick up a reserve canister.

The 108 lobe came recommended by AI for a healthy torque increase, higher cylinder pressures, and a narrower powerband.

ahh gotcha... well my car idleing the brake pedel is rock hard.. i dont know if its a vacuum issue or because of the abs delete yet... ill see how it performs on the road once i register it again