GM to repay loans Weds

[BigAls87Z28]

GM is repaying the loans to both the US and Canadian goverments 2 months before they said they would.
Q1 was big...real big.
The Treasury and GM will work on an IPO sooner then later now, where the goverment will be able to make a profit on the revitalized GM

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f12/report-gm-announce-repayment-federal-loans-full-wednesday-91093/#post2039982

[transmaro93]

thank god maybe i can buy a new one someday then!!!

edit... is the profit just like an Interest type thing... or does the govt not plan on giving its shares up once money is repaid...

[sweetbmxrider]

bout time!

[BigAls87Z28]

thank god maybe i can buy a new one someday then!!!

edit... is the profit just like an Interest type thing... or does the govt not plan on giving its shares up once money is repaid...

There are some that say the goverment might want to keep some shares of GM, but no where near a controling part of it. But its possible that as Govt sells off shares of GM, the price of the stock could climb, making the shares more valuale, giving the goverment more money.

[Tru2Chevy]

:w00t:

Good to see this finally happening.

- Justin

[transmaro93]

well im not fighting you on this... but maybe i dont understand how it works... the govt. bailed GM out gave them lots of money and bought up a controlling part of the shares... now how do they get paid back and still keep the shares??? isnt that like getting paid twice for the same thing??

[BigAls87Z28]

Treasury gave GM $50 billion, but when they took over 61% of GM, the recoverd some of the assets.
When the Treasury and GM work it out, it will an issue an IPO or an initial pulic offering. People will pay them money for shares in the company. This is just like any other private company going public.
Once that happens, and more shares of GM sold, the lesser the Treasury owns to where it will eventually own a small portion.

[Slow-V6]

might be a good time to get some stocks?

[Blacdout96]

How do we go about purchasing stocks? and whats the price per share at the moment for GM? wouldn't mind dropping a couple hundred in shares.

[V]

id buy some

[Knipps]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_public_offering

[Wolfblitz]

Now, if only they would bring Pontiac back......

[Little G]

Thank you Toyota!!

g

[Blacdout96]

Thank you Toyota!!

g

Best quote related to the thread :D

[BigAls87Z28]

You cannot buy stock in GM yet but when it the do the IPO you will be able to buy. The treasury will probably do a gradual release so that it can maintain a profit on the stocks.

[RiggsLW81]

just saw a commercial from GM stating this news...that they were paying off their gov't loans early on...seems like their on point with getting favorable in the public eye again..

[Knipps]

Now, if only they would bring Pontiac back......

Seriously? This is really old.

[Nitr0racing21]

I heard of the rumors that they might buy pontiac back from "the old GM" is that possible??

[Mike]

I heard of the rumors that they might buy pontiac back from "the old GM" is that possible??

just please stop, the horse will thank you

[Frosty]

just please stop, the horse will thank you

:werd: x10000000000000000000000000

[firebirdcrazy]

I just got an email from GM stating that all the loans with interest have been paid back 5 years ahead of schedule.. Anyone else get this from GM?

We value and appreciate your loyalty more than anything. We are proud to announce we have repaid our government loan – in full, with interest, five years ahead of the original schedule. We realize we still have more to do. Our goal is to exceed every expectation you've set for us. We're designing, building and selling the best cars and trucks in the world. Like the award-winning Chevy Malibu, the all-new Buick LaCrosse, the versatile Cadillac CTS Sport Wagon and the innovative GMC Terrain, just to name a few. As we move into the future, we're thankful to have loyal owners like you. We invite you to learn more about the new GM and join our community, by visiting gm.com. And once again, thank you for your support.


Susan E. Docherty
Vice President, U.S. Marketing

[Blacdout96]

I dont think they just dumped a couple billion dollars in the governments lap just now and said Kthankzbye.

[Tsar]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/22/grassley-slams-gm-administration-loans-repaid-bailout-money/

Sen. Chuck Grassley's charge was backed up by the inspector general for the bailout -- also known as the Trouble Asset Relief Program, or TARP. Watchdog Neil Barofsky told Fox News, as well as the Senate Finance Committee, that General Motors used bailout money to pay back the federal government.

:lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

From Fox News, the most trusted of news sources when it comes the current administration.
Earnings will be posted next month.
It was NOT taken from TARP, but from GM's profits. Fox has been pushing this **** since they first announced it. They just cant get over teh fact that its possible that the goverment might have actually made a solid move, that the administration's choice to support GM was a good move, and that we tax payers will be paid back.

[Tsar]

From Fox News, the most trusted of news sources when it comes the current administration.
Earnings will be posted next month.
It was NOT taken from TARP, but from GM's profits. Fox has been pushing this **** since they first announced it. They just cant get over teh fact that its possible that the goverment might have actually made a solid move, that the administration's choice to support GM was a good move, and that we tax payers will be paid back.

Really? I guess GM officials disagree with you. And something they conveniently decided to leave out of the commercial. :lol:

Treasury and GM officials don’t dispute that the money to repay the loan is coming from TARP funds. But they said that’s been clearly disclosed.

I guess you missed your memo.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/04/22/grassley-gm-uses-tarp-money-shuffle-to-pay-loans/

[BonzoHansen]

Sounds like they have good accountants!

[BigAls87Z28]

This is gunna get real cloudy, real fast. GOP is looking for a target, and GM is it...again.
GM is owned 61% by the Treasury, and the money that was spent to get them going again was mixed in with a lot of the money that they are making now, and they are making a lot of money. This will be all moot and more Fox News/GOP witch hunting next month.

[JerzLT1]

This is gunna get real cloudy, real fast. GOP is looking for a target, and GM is it...again.
GM is owned 61% by the Treasury, and the money that was spent to get them going again was mixed in with a lot of the money that they are making now, and they are making a lot of money. This will be all moot and more Fox News/GOP witch hunting next month.

Al, you dont have the facts just like no one else does. some people listen to the media, you choose to listen to someone else. none of us have first hand knowledge of what is going on. Dont act like someone is stupid because they choose to listen to a different source than you. Its the same as people commenting on whats happening over seas. you know what you are told, that doesnt mean it is the truth

[BigAls87Z28]

Al, you dont have the facts just like no one else does. some people listen to the media, you choose to listen to someone else. none of us have first hand knowledge of what is going on. Dont act like someone is stupid because they choose to listen to a different source than you. Its the same as people commenting on whats happening over seas. you know what you are told, that doesnt mean it is the truth

The war is different then this.

GM was given X amount of money to keep things going
The restructured under Chap 11. and with VEBA negotiations that was worked out in late 2007, GM has now become profitable.
The money that GM took from the government that they needed to keep afloat in 2008/2009, sitting in GM's bank, was given back because they can now run on their own.
They no longer need the cash fronted to them by the Treasury.
The next step would be to totally remove themselves from the government once GM issues and IPO.
GM payed back the loan. Did they spend ALL the money that was given to them by the Treasury?

If you take a loan out for 1000 bucks, use it to help spur business. Business picks up and you didnt have to touch the loan or touched very little of it, what do you do?
You pay it back. GM did pay it back. Fox wants to spin it that GM is NOT functional, that the Obama administration made a mistake and that they should kill GM.

[Frosty]

Sweet, I didn't realize the ENTIRE station has the view, I didn't get the memo. Did MSNBC tell you all of this?

[Tsar]

Dudes, only Al can be unbiased - the rest of the world has an agenda. Just accept it and move on.

[Frosty]

I didn't get that memo either. :D I wouldn't doubt FNC has a biased approach but not everything is a conspiracy against The Messiah and GM....

[Blacdout96]

Lets get back on topic before it's locked up for politics

great to hear GM is stepping in the right direction again. Toyota is lookign down, and GM is looking up, lets just hope it stays that way, meaning keep the bean counters out of the R&D, design, and production rooms.

[Frosty]

GM got a 2nd chance, lets hope they make good on it. I still don't agree with the bailout but if they can truly come out of this OK and prosper then it's all good I suppose.

[BigAls87Z28]

Can't tell me that FNC is anywhere near fair and balanced when the majority of their shows are opinion shows.

[qwikz28]

Can someone explain to me why its bad that GM (allegedly?) used TARP money to repay loans? Is it cause it doesn't really prove that GM is profitable? I read on another forum that if GM used TARP funds, that that is even better, cause it shows that they allocated some just in case funds when they got the TARP and ended up not needing it since the market bounced back quick enough. Someone wanna help me out here, I really don't have time to read an entire op-ed on this nonsense.

[Frosty]

Can't tell me that FNC is anywhere near fair and balanced when the majority of their shows are opinion shows.

But not everything is a big conspiracy man...yes Fox leans right and some stuff is blown out of proportion but they've been right about A LOT of stuff.

[BonzoHansen]

so they paid tarp funds back with tarp funds? is that the crux of this? I need to go read that pile of Journals I have upstairs.

[Tsar]

Yea, in short GM is using money from their 52 billion dollar of total "infusion" to pay off their current loan "in full". GM hasn't made a single cent of profit since 2004, and they just posted a loss of almost 5 billion dollars. How can they possibly pay anything off right now? They just need to make few critical steps to qualify for a Bernie Madoff show :lol:

Also FTC is looking into this because of the whole "we paid back in full" fiasco.

General Motors is running ads on all the major networks this week claiming it has repaid its bailout from the taxpayers "in full." But the claim isn't standing up to scrutiny from lawmakers and government watchdogs who have found that the automaker was able to repay the bailout money only by dipping into a separate pot of bailout funds.

...

"The bottom line seems to be that the TARP loans were 'repaid' with other TARP funds in a Treasury escrow account. The TARP loans were not repaid from money GM is earning selling cars, as GM and the administration have claimed in their speeches, press releases and television commercials," he wrote.

GM Could Be in Hot Water With FTC Over Truth in Advertising (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/23/gm-hot-water-ftc-truth-advertising/)

[LTb1ow]

Yea, in short GM is using money from their 52 billion dollar of total "infusion" to pay off their current loan "in full". GM hasn't made a single cent of profit since 2004, and they just posted a loss of almost 5 billion dollars. How can they possibly pay anything off right now? They just need to make few critical steps to qualify for a Bernie Madoff show :lol:

Also FTC is looking into this because of the whole "we paid back in full" fiasco.



GM Could Be in Hot Water With FTC Over Truth in Advertising (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/23/gm-hot-water-ftc-truth-advertising/)

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/blog/images/star-wars-anonymous-rebel-pilot-sees-what-u-did-there.jpg

How can GM possibly NOT make money in a market that has toyota bleeding profusely.... :-?

[BigAls87Z28]

GM will post its Q1 profits early May.
The Q4 loss was due to a one time tax charge. Only part of GM that isnt making money is GM Europe because they are rolling out tons of new product.
Like I said before, Jan 1st, 2010 the VEBA contract that GM signed with the UAW in late 2007 was going to put GM into the black as planned back in 2007, using those figures.

If anything, its a symantics issue. They either paid back or gave back the TARP funds as in they no longer need government loans to keep them afloat.

[Frosty]

I'll believe it when I see it. No, that's not a knock on GM nor am I buying into what FNC is saying but in a day and age of shady accounting practices(Goldman Sachs anyone?) and other ways of fudging the numbers I'm a bit skeptical.

I'm curious to see/hear the FTC findings.

[BigAls87Z28]

I think it will moot come next month. GM will post great earnings for the first time in a while, and people will just be happy again.
This was a big boost of morale inside GM. Lots of them were really happy that this was over.

[SteveR]

How I understand it GM took funds out from a second account to repay the first loan and claimed they paid it back in full, whereas in truth they simply created a second loan :lol: I don't really believe any profit numbers as it's so easy to fake them. GM could say they had profits in a quarter and simply took TARP money and rolled in over into an account and called it profit. I've seen plenty of other companies do that. The other big one is lay a bunch of people off and call that profit too, as you no longer have to pay overhead costs for them. Pfizer is big with that one. Save $8 million in payroll. "Hey, we profited $8 more million this quarter! Let's tell Wall Street!" Whereas the product sales went not up but down but through tricky book keeping, they can declare profits. I'd like to see sales figures. That's probably the best way to tell profit or equity in the market.

[Frosty]

This was a big boost of morale inside GM. Lots of them were really happy that this was over.

Sweet, you're inside the executive building? Nice. ;):mrgreen::moon:

[BigAls87Z28]

Sweet, you're inside the executive building? Nice. ;):mrgreen::moon:

I have made a lot of friends with some high and mid ranking GM execs, thanks to GMI.
They are also all over twitter and facebook talking about it.

[NastyEllEssWon]

I have made a lot of friends with some high and mid ranking GM execs, thanks to GMI.
They are also all over twitter and facebook talking about it.




al loves playing junior gm public relations. the truth to the matter is that if there is anyone that is biased and spinning the truth...its you...but thats ok, we expect it from you and gm. im sure if gm needs anymore help with this problem theyll give you a call down there at the desk at autozone and consult you like always. :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

al loves playing junior gm public relations. the truth to the matter is that if there is anyone that is biased and spinning the truth...its you...but thats ok, we expect it from you and gm. im sure if gm needs anymore help with this problem theyll give you a call down there at the desk at autozone and consult you like always. :lol:

We shall see.
Actually I will be on a conf call with some GM people Weds. Ill let you guys know how it turns out.

[Frosty]

I have made a lot of friends with some high and mid ranking GM execs, thanks to GMI.
They are also all over twitter and facebook talking about it.

I was just being a wise ass man. ;)

[BigAls87Z28]

No ****. Look I don't have to explain myself regarding GM just that I enjoy my little job that involves talking and interacting with GM employees.

[SteveR]

Al, see if you can confirm something. I heard that $6.7 billion of the alleged payback was in stock options for GM and not in cash. I'm curious if that's true or not.

[BigAls87Z28]

since there is no stock and since the treasury owns 60% of GM I some how doubt it but ill look.

[Tsar]

GM will post its Q1 profits early May.
The Q4 loss was due to a one time tax charge. Only part of GM that isnt making money is GM Europe because they are rolling out tons of new product.
Like I said before, Jan 1st, 2010 the VEBA contract that GM signed with the UAW in late 2007 was going to put GM into the black as planned back in 2007, using those figures.



Nearly 5 billion yearly loss, is a loss - semantics don't matter. What's worse is it has been going on since 2004. It's so sad that my savings account has made more profit last year than GM has in half a decade. There's no positive spin on this.

Q1 profit doesn't mean there will be yearly profit, they still have to to mess everything up.

[BigAls87Z28]

A loss is a loss,, doesnt matter what or how it happend. But that means little now, in the present and going into the future if they start making a profit. Now one quarter of profit does not mean a turn around, but we shall only see.

[12secondv6]

Soooooo, GM is still crap huh?

:rofl:

[SteveR]

Elizabeth Warren, the Chairwoman for the Senate Oversight Committee for the TARP Program confirmed what I heard, that GM instead of repaying the loan with cash, traded a large percentage of debt for virtual stocks and she said "those GM commercials (referring to the ones about GM paying back the loan with interest) aren't true".

[NastyEllEssWon]

so much for that watercooler eh? :lol:

[Tsar]

Elizabeth Warren, the Chairwoman for the Senate Oversight Committee for the TARP Program confirmed what I heard, that GM instead of repaying the loan with cash, traded a large percentage of debt for virtual stocks and she said "those GM commercials (referring to the ones about GM paying back the loan with interest) aren't true".
Clearly, she has some fox news ties, and she is simply a hater who wants to keep GM down. Do not believe her, Al knows better!
so much for that watercooler eh? :lol:Must have been broken on that day :lol:

[JerzLT1]

No ****. Look I don't have to explain myself regarding GM just that I enjoy my little job that involves talking and interacting with GM employees.

Im a military service memeber but i still cant tell you **** about the stuff thats above my pay grade ;) one thing that i have learned though is that you will know what they want you to know. No matter what level you are on, there is someone above you that knows more of the truth and is telling you what you want to hear or not telling you what they dont want you to hear. Not bashing you at all Al, keep giving us your (and the GM employees that you know) version of whats going on.

[jims69camaro]

Thank you Toyota!!

g

yeah, that'll work. it takes a japanese company stepping on their dicks for GM to get out from under... what does that say about those who drive japanese cars?

[transmaro93]

Elizabeth Warren, the Chairwoman for the Senate Oversight Committee for the TARP Program confirmed what I heard, that GM instead of repaying the loan with cash, traded a large percentage of debt for virtual stocks and she said "those GM commercials (referring to the ones about GM paying back the loan with interest) aren't true".

hmm i wonder if beck was lieing and making this up too when he reported on it.... cant anybody tell the truth anymore... people aren't as dumb as these govt and big business big wigs think we are. Just say that we are looking toward an upward direction and hope it keeps on and we will someday make a turn around. I really think the govt has no plans to let GM go.... but thats just my 2 cents

[NastyEllEssWon]

hmm i wonder if beck was lieing and making this up too when he reported on it.... cant anybody tell the truth anymore... people aren't as dumb as these govt and big business big wigs think we are. Just say that we are looking toward an upward direction and hope it keeps on and we will someday make a turn around. I really think the govt has no plans to let GM go.... but thats just my 2 cents




lol if anyone ever thought the government was going to let GM become a serperate company again then theyre mistaken. Government Motors is here to stay and push their hybrids and small models upon us. I guarantee the corvette will be a hybrid by 2020 :nod:

[BigAls87Z28]

iI think you guys are a little paranoid. They have done nothing to force GM to make more hybrids or small cars. In fact is say that GM makes less hybrid models now then they did 3 years ago.
Malibu Silverado and Sierra hybrids are gone as are the Vue and Aura hybrids.
I don't think that the treasury will ever sell all of its shares of GM though but will not maintain a controlling interest

[NastyEllEssWon]

iI think you guys are a little paranoid. They have done nothing to force GM to make more hybrids or small cars. In fact is say that GM makes less hybrid models now then they did 3 years ago.
Malibu Silverado and Sierra hybrids are gone as are the Vue and Aura hybrids.
I don't think that the treasury will ever sell all of its shares of GM though but will not maintain a controlling interest



and some would say that you put too much faith into an organization that has screwed over the public willingly, in plain site for the last 50 years and could care less about safety or public interest and long as it lines their pockets with silver....


the sad part is from that description you wouldnt be able to figure out which im talking about GM or the GOVERNMENT...which is a bit of both now.


kind of fitting actually.

[Frosty]

Well if Beck said then it's obviously not true, right? ;)

"IF" this is true(who the hell knows any more, yes I'm Glenn Beck fan but I don't take his word as absolute until I do my own research), GM is playing a VERY dangerous game with their PR...something that has already sucked for decades. Like already said, do government or corporate people think the the public is that stupid?

[Tsar]

Well if Beck said then it's obviously not true, right? ;)

"IF" this is true(who the hell knows any more, yes I'm Glenn Beck fan but I don't take his word as absolute until I do my own research), GM is playing a VERY dangerous game with their PR...something that has already sucked for decades. Like already said, do government or corporate people think the the public is that stupid?
I've always said that MOST people are stupid. So I guess, they share my opinion. :lol:

[Frosty]

I've always said that MOST people are stupid. So I guess, they share my opinion. :lol:

Then you must be our fearless leader.

ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing

:wink::mrgreen:

[Tsar]

Then you must be our fearless leader.

ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing

:wink::mrgreen:
Sorry, I'm not eligible, I was born in the wrong country - that's what military told me.

[Frosty]

But I thought being from another country automatic makes you stupid therefore eligible to lead us stupid people? ****, the memo I got from FoxNews must have been wrong.

[Tsar]

But I thought being from another country automatic makes you stupid therefore eligible to lead us stupid people? ****, the memo I got from FoxNews must have been wrong.
Never got that memo :mrgreen:

[transmaro93]

well my "i-car" training classes that are pretty much mandatory (is a story for another day) tell me otherwise Al. Its told to me that future plans for automakers (not just GM) are to eliminate most full frame vehicles including trucks. They want to build more unibody type trucks like the honda ridgeline. Now i cant see towing a decent sized trailor with one of those, but who knows. The technology in cars these days in really unbelievable, but it still seems that its not enough for the govt for a car to make 300hp and still get 30mpg... not to make this too political but isnt the current CEO of GM really close to the pres and his people? i mean this guy was hand picked. And on the commercial he seems like a real hand job anyway.

[BigAls87Z28]

well my "i-car" training classes that are pretty much mandatory (is a story for another day) tell me otherwise Al. Its told to me that future plans for automakers (not just GM) are to eliminate most full frame vehicles including trucks. They want to build more unibody type trucks like the honda ridgeline. Now i cant see towing a decent sized trailor with one of those, but who knows. The technology in cars these days in really unbelievable, but it still seems that its not enough for the govt for a car to make 300hp and still get 30mpg... not to make this too political but isnt the current CEO of GM really close to the pres and his people? i mean this guy was hand picked. And on the commercial he seems like a real hand job anyway.

Unibody SUV's are more popular then its BOF variants, which is why most SUV's are going to a unibody system. GM, Toyota, and Ford are the few brands that made BOF SUV's. Nissan still makes one I think, Xterra maybe?
But BOF trucks are still the call for teh day. Now, with loop holes in the system, bringing unibody trucks like the Ute or a Ridgeline into the fold will help increase teh truck's CAFE score.
The old CAFE system had tons of loop holes, and allowed some wagons and hatchbacks to be fall under the truck section, therefor making the CAFE score look better.

And no, the current CEO was not hand picked by the President, he was picked by the head of the Auto Task Force, who has since stepped down. "Big Ed" was CEO of SBC, who built that up strong enough to buy up a bunch of baby bells, then purchased Cingular and changed the name to AT&T.

[transmaro93]

i dont know what the cafe score is. But i cant see buying a 2500 HD truck that is a unibody. Just doesnt seem right to me. BTW dont spin my words AL!!!! i never said he was hand picked by the pres. I was asking if he was close to the pres. And then i said he was hand picked, which he was. by an auto task force put in place by the current administration. I don't care what he did with cingular. that doesn't make him an honest man.

[NastyEllEssWon]

"Big Ed"




:rofl:

[BigAls87Z28]

i dont know what the cafe score is. But i cant see buying a 2500 HD truck that is a unibody. Just doesnt seem right to me. BTW dont spin my words AL!!!! i never said he was hand picked by the pres. I was asking if he was close to the pres. And then i said he was hand picked, which he was. by an auto task force put in place by the current administration. I don't care what he did with cingular. that doesn't make him an honest man.

CAFE = Corperate Average Fuel Economy. CAFE has been the goverments attempt at trying to increase the fuel economy of the automakers since the 70's. It has done a poor job due to the loop holes. The spike in gas prices did more to the auto industry for 6 months then CAFE has done in 30 years.

Ed Whitacre isnt close to or near anyone near the president nor the former head of the ATF. He was picked because of how he turned a small regional phone company into a nationwide power house, being one of the largest cell phone providers, on top of others things. He had retired from AT&T a few years ago, and at the time he was just put in to be the Chariman of the Board. Fritz Henderson was the CEO that came in after Rick Wagoner stepped down, and Ed didnt feel he was doing that great of a job, and that he has too much "Old GM" blood in him. He was fired as well, and then Whitacre took over as interim CEO, which turned into him taking over the position only a few months ago full time. He has removed a lot of "Old GM" people, and today he fired the last one by hiring Hyundai's #1 marketing guy.
Susan Docherty was removed and reassigned and Joel Ewanick is now VP of Marketing.
His honesty has nothing to do with this.

[transmaro93]

it kind of does have something to do with it when he is personally on a commercial saying they repaid their loan back in full and really all they did in simple form was take money from one pocket it and put it in another. I'm speaking from an outside the circle POV. People don't like to be lied to.

[BigAls87Z28]

They gave back money that was loaned to them, because they dont need it.
Call it paying it back, or whatever you want, but GM no longer needs extra funds from the Goverment, and that in the end is the big news.
Of course you can spin it in any way to make it look poor. In the end, GM is becoming a profitable company, and despite a drastic move to do what was done, we now seem to have two strong automotive corperations still in the US, instead of what would have happend. We will only know how it turns out down the road, but as of right now it seems GM has its bearings and will become profitable for the future.

[SteveR]

They gave back money that was loaned to them

Not exactly. They took tax payer dollars and in return traded it for a virtual percentage of the company, not cash. They took actual money and in return traded paper that is currently worth nothing. And if GM ever goes public, is the gov going to turn around and hand out those stocks to the tax payers that paid for it? Nope. GM got free money at all of our expenses. And when the head of the Senate Oversight Committee for the TARP program goes on TV and says that GM is full of ****, I'm kind of inclined to believe her over some GM kool-aid propaganda. I also take it as a personal insult that GM went on TV with those commercials saying they paid everything back with interest with a big smile and a cheap suit, meanwhile they're laughing all the way to the bank.

[NastyEllEssWon]

wheres that watercooler when you need it :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

There is no doubt that GM got free money, but that "free" is debatable.
They have now been saddled with the "Goverment Motors" moniker for damn near a year now. Tea Baggers and other right wing, anti-Obama fans have stood fast by not buying GM product. They had to cut four brands, and thousands of jobs loose. They went through sevearl very public trials in front of goverment officials.

I want to hear more about this virtual stock stuff.

[NastyEllEssWon]

There is no doubt that GM got free money, but that "free" is debatable.
They have now been saddled with the "Goverment Motors" moniker for damn near a year now. Tea Baggers and other right wing, anti-Obama fans have stood fast by not buying GM product. They had to cut four brands, and thousands of jobs loose. They went through sevearl very public trials in front of goverment officials.

I want to hear more about this virtual stock stuff.



im sure youll hear it somewhere around the office tomorrow :lol:

[SteveR]

I want to hear more about this virtual stock stuff.

She said that GM instead of giving back money, offered the gov guaranteed stock options and another percentage of the company. GM then goes on TV and says "we paid back the loan with interest!". So the gov goes on TV and says uhh... NO.

[Tsar]

There is no doubt that GM got free money, but that "free" is debatable.
They have now been saddled with the "Goverment Motors" moniker for damn near a year now. Tea Baggers and other right wing, anti-Obama fans have stood fast by not buying GM product. They had to cut four brands, and thousands of jobs loose. They went through sevearl very public trials in front of goverment officials.

I want to hear more about this virtual stock stuff.

That's way better than they deserve. After 6 years of no profit and almost 90 billion dollar loss no business should exist.

[BigAls87Z28]

She said that GM instead of giving back money, offered the gov guaranteed stock options and another percentage of the company. GM then goes on TV and says "we paid back the loan with interest!". So the gov goes on TV and says uhh... NO.

I dont get that, since the goverment already owns a certain percentage? Why would you buy more shares of a company, when you already own a controling intrest of it already? Unless its to make more money in the end, I dont see how the hell it works. If this is the case, then there is some **** going down. She was on Colbert Report a few nights ago, and she was talking about it. She didnt say anything in contrast, but she made a face when Colbert said that "GM paid back the loan."


That's way better than they deserve. After 6 years of no profit and almost 90 billion dollar loss no business should exist.

So put a few more thousand people out of jobs and possibly worsen the automotive sector world wide, not to mention the job market here in the US because GM didnt make any money over the last few years?
Then how do you support any of the bail outs? If you dont, then you would have been perfectly fine letting the world as we know it, spiral out of control?
While I dont agree 100% on bail outs and handing out my money, I sure as hell dont want to see this country fall apart based on a few people making major decisions, especially when some of them were betting that it would fail anyway.
What I dont get is why dont people support more regulation? Do you support more regulation?

This all could be just a moot point, and as a fan of GM, I do hope that thier IPO takes off, and the goverment sees most if not all thier money back.

[Frosty]

There is no doubt that GM got free money, but that "free" is debatable.
They have now been saddled with the "Goverment Motors" moniker for damn near a year now. Tea Baggers and other right wing, anti-Obama fans have stood fast by not buying GM product. They had to cut four brands, and thousands of jobs loose. They went through sevearl very public trials in front of goverment officials.

I want to hear more about this virtual stock stuff.

Tea Baggers, how Keith Olbermann like...you seriously are a sheep sometimes. Do you honestly expect people to run out and buy a GM car right now? Some people REGARDLESS of political affiliation didn't agree with TARP and other forms of bailouts....but yet you expect them spend THEIR money on products they don't want? It's so damn arrogant to EXPECT people to go out and buy a GM product merely based on the fact that they're in trouble. It's called free-will and a supposed free market, if GM can't hack it against other companies then that's their problem, not ours. GM, IMO, makes better cars than a Toyota or Nissan but do you wonder why they can't make a profit? Do you want WHY they have the stigma they carry? Their PR sucks moose ****, they've ****ed over countless customers, supplies etc. How many dealerships/supplies/creditors got ass-raped with no KY through the bankruptcy proceedings? Do you know or do you not want to talk about that because reality is hard to face?

There's more to a company than its product and that's where GM fails miserably. I'm sure you'll spin it that I'm just some wacko Conservative who hates GM or that it's just some big conspiracy against the poor victim GM...the fact is A LOT of people are still mad about TARP and it's absolutely ludicrous that GM would make such bold statements that they paid back ALL of the loans when it's coming out that they haven't. That right there is enough to make me never EVER buy a product of theirs again. It's further proof they've learned nothing.

So what's next? Is it the "tea-bagger's" fault GM is still losing money?

***For the record I'm not part of this Tea Bag movement, it's mainly a sham of a movement with no direction. While they bring up some VERY valid points they offer no alternatives, just whine, bitch, whine, and bitch some more. I just find it funny you echo what douche's on MSNBC say.****

[BigAls87Z28]

I just like the Tea Bagger moniker, thats all.

I never said I expect people to buy GM vehicles, ever. You have full right to buy what you want. I just stated it as a fact that GM has to overcome that. I didnt like how the Senators of states where there are foreign automakers plants tried to kill not only GM and Chrysler, but Ford as well. That is a whole different argument.

I never said you have to buy or you must buy GM or even American. I would rather you did, but its up to you. I think that GM offers some really great vehicles, but if people are willing to just disreguard them because of goverment intervention, I just find that narrow minded considering they stepped in to make sure that Americans can keep their jobs without having them all sign up for unemployment. You could turn around and call me narrow minded, but believe it or not I do actually like cars from other brands, and they arent American!

[MonmouthCtyAntz]

Thank the new Camaro for that...those things are everywhere.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Thank the new Camaro for that...those things are everywhere.



thank the new camaro for what???

[SteveR]

Through a bizarre coincidence, I met a guy last night who's an auditor who oversees large corporation financial interactions and we got to talking about GM. He wouldn't tell me if he was involved in the deal, but he was very knowledgeable about the GM deal to the point where he was referencing documents and reports that GM was handing over to the gov. He confirmed the story about GM trading debt for stock options and corporate percentages and went further. He explained that this was a premeditated move on GM's part and the point is to first acquire cash to spend and then to offer virtual stocks in return which requires no actual cash to return to the gov. The move is twofold; it boosts GM's credit and it puts GM in a position to now go get a loan from a bank for even more money, which is exactly what he said GM will do next. This will start the cycle over again. Once GM can't repay the next bank loan, they'll go to the gov for another TARP loan and since the gov now owns an even bigger percentage of the company, they'll be more inclined to hand out another loan, thus giving GM even more cash for free. He also said that once they get the bank loan they'll roll that loaned cash into an account and fudge the books and call that loan money profit and he's predicting GM in Q3 and Q4 of this year will declare a roughly $4-5 billion profit per quarter and that will actually be reflecting the money they got from the loan minus the actual loss they will have that'll be taken out of the loan.

He also went into detail about GM's accounting and operating details. He said that GM is so bloated and inefficient that in order for GM to stay afloat the way they are structured now, they'd have to sell 17 million new cars every year. That's roughly one new car per every fifth household every year. He said now that the gov has a controlling stake in GM, GM is now MORE likely to be inefficient because now the gov has a financial interest in not letting them fail.

[BigAls87Z28]

Through a bizarre coincidence, I met a guy last night who's an auditor who oversees large corporation financial interactions and we got to talking about GM. He wouldn't tell me if he was involved in the deal, but he was very knowledgeable about the GM deal to the point where he was referencing documents and reports that GM was handing over to the gov. He confirmed the story about GM trading debt for stock options and corporate percentages and went further. He explained that this was a premeditated move on GM's part and the point is to first acquire cash to spend and then to offer virtual stocks in return which requires no actual cash to return to the gov. The move is twofold; it boosts GM's credit and it puts GM in a position to now go get a loan from a bank for even more money, which is exactly what he said GM will do next. This will start the cycle over again. Once GM can't repay the next bank loan, they'll go to the gov for another TARP loan and since the gov now owns an even bigger percentage of the company, they'll be more inclined to hand out another loan, thus giving GM even more cash for free. He also said that once they get the bank loan they'll roll that loaned cash into an account and fudge the books and call that loan money profit and he's predicting GM in Q3 and Q4 of this year will declare a roughly $4-5 billion profit per quarter and that will actually be reflecting the money they got from the loan minus the actual loss they will have that'll be taken out of the loan.

He also went into detail about GM's accounting and operating details. He said that GM is so bloated and inefficient that in order for GM to stay afloat the way they are structured now, they'd have to sell 17 million new cars every year. That's roughly one new car per every fifth household every year. He said now that the gov has a controlling stake in GM, GM is now MORE likely to be inefficient because now the gov has a financial interest in not letting them fail.

I call ******** on everything.

Starting from the bottom up, the entire MARKET doesnt sell 17 million cars. At its peak, it only reached 15 million in total sales for everyone.
GM's original plan when it asked for money was that they could be profitable selling 20% of the cars @ a GM projected 12-13 million total cars sales a year. The government did not like that, and that was one of the reasons GM had to come back to the table with a revised plan.
I believe the American market only sold in 2009 about 10 million cars, about 2/3's off its peak.
So I think he is pulling numbers out of his ass. GM would most deffinatly be profitable if they sold 17 million cars a year, they would then have at current sales numbers, over 120% market share. 17 million cars is ********, no one will ever sell 17 million cars. If GM, Toyota and Honda combined to form ONE brand, they wouldnt sell 17 million cars.

As for the comment about GM not being able to pay the banks back, thats saying that GM is not going to be making a profit at all.
GM was planning on making a profit as of Jan 1st, 2010 when they made the VEBA contract with the UAW, saving them about 10 billion dollars a year. That was deal was made back in 2007.
GM has cut a many workers, as well as an assload of middle managers. They removed 4 brands and shut down a lot of dealers (some of them fought back and only a few won).
GM will need money and banks to loan them money to move forward, there is no illusion about that. Hell, the banks own the majority stake in Ford now! Ford is making money again right? No one is claiming they are just shifting money around? Their sales numbers are up, and so are GM's, so why would GM not be making money, but Ford is?

Government has no control over the day to day operations or the product planning inside GM. Has it effected some of GM's future products? Im sure some have been tweeked or moved around, but Id say some were due to the fact that they went through BK and have been working on a limited cash flow. I can think of at least 2 programs that have been shelved due to funding while coming up with more affordable and profitable options.
All of GM's new cars will be made for a profit, and they will make sure that the profit margin is there. Its a main reason the Aveo production will be moved to the US, and away from Korea because in the past GM would have to either sell a boat load, or lose money on every one.

I have no qualms about GM still being bloated, but its a massive company with 100 years of garbage still stuck inside. Ed Whitacre has been running through them, trying to find weak spots, and has fired many people.

[Green_Phoenix_LT1]

I don't know anything about this stuff I just wish they didn't close Pontiac. That's all I have to say about that.

All I know is one way or another GM will never completely shut down. Not only does the government have a lot invested in them but they depend on GM for DoD vehicles and no I do not mean just HMMWV's. For anyone that's been to Iraq or Kuwait you know that 90% of all the civilian vehicles there are Gm products. From construction contractors to food service to supply facility workers and so forthe they use Chevy trucks both Silverado and the LUV. I'm not tryiong to start a debate because like I said I don't know anything about this kind of stuff I am just letting people know what I have seen and my thoughts on it.

[SteveR]

Al, the point is that GM is so inefficient that they would HAVE TO sell 17 million cars per year in order to stay afloat. It's no big secret that corporations cook the books. Last year GM wrote off $13+ billion in pension money (how's that for taking care of it's employees?) and called that profit. They DID NOT make $13+ billion in sales, they just called the write off a profit. Now same with the trade off of company percentages for debt. The lack of a debt becomes a profit. Did GM sell 6 million cars last quarter? You can only trade off write offs for debt to a certain point until the actual differential between sales to overhead costs comes out again when GM reports record losses again. Like the guy mentioned, GM will now apply for large bank loans and call that influx of unearned cash a profit as well.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Al, the point is that GM is so inefficient that they would HAVE TO sell 17 million cars per year in order to stay afloat. It's no big secret that corporations cook the books. Last year GM wrote off $13+ billion in pension money (how's that for taking care of it's employees?) and called that profit. They DID NOT make $13+ billion in sales, they just called the write off a profit. Now same with the trade off of company percentages for debt. The lack of a debt becomes a profit. Did GM sell 6 million cars last quarter? You can only trade off write offs for debt to a certain point until the actual differential between sales to overhead costs comes out again when GM reports record losses again. Like the guy mentioned, GM will now apply for large bank loans and call that influx of unearned cash a profit as well.



lol that reminds me of the old cartoon gag of two guys digging a hole and their throwing their dirt into the other guys hole :nod:

[Frosty]

I never said I expect people to buy GM vehicles, ever. You have full right to buy what you want.

I never said you have to buy or you must buy GM or even American. I would rather you did, but its up to you.

Tea Baggers and other right wing, anti-Obama fans have stood fast by not buying GM product.

Then what exactly did that mean? If you don't expect people buy GM or whatever then why say this? So what exactly did you mean by this? So the "tea-baggers" should buy GM products or STFU? Should be the part of the solution instead of the problem? Is it their fault GM is full of fail? Or was this just another opportunity to slam those that doesn't share your point of view?

I'm not trying to start trouble but I thought it was odd that you'd say something like that in a criticizing manner yet you say people should buy what the want...kind of...odd. People not wanting to buy GM products due to them receiving our money is absolutely a valid reason to look elsewhere. While I personally don't think that way the reason has a lot of a validity to it. Again, I'll say it again....if it turns out there's something fishy going on their books and loan repayment I'll never buy a new GM product again, I don't care if they want to give me a new SS for $100.

[transmaro93]

Al you cant compare ford to GM, just for the main reason that aford didnt take a bail out. If ford fails the only people taht hurt (besides employees obviously) are the people that willing invested in the company. The American people as a whole were forced without asking to invest in GM. I mean i don't have to explain my self in this thread you know how i feel and we've had numerous discussions on this topic, but i will say that its a huge **** story, because like said about unless they become very profitable they are just going to keep borrowing whether its from a bank or the govt and when will it stop?

[BigAls87Z28]

Then what exactly did that mean? If you don't expect people buy GM or whatever then why say this? So what exactly did you mean by this? So the "tea-baggers" should buy GM products or STFU? Should be the part of the solution instead of the problem? Is it their fault GM is full of fail? Or was this just another opportunity to slam those that doesn't share your point of view?

Tea Baggers should STFU, but for a totaly different reason. They dont want to buy GM cars, so be it. I find it silly that if the Tea baggers are so American, and so for American people and Buy USA, etc etc, then they would rather buy Toyota products over a GM product because of the goverments investment. When I bought my Malibu, I sure as hell looked at other brands, and there is a lot to pick from. But with several factors tied in, one being an American made vehicle, made by a brand I love, not to mention is a pretty nice car and drives very well and offerd everything I wanted.
People are not making that decision and I guess that fustraits me more, but to each thier own.

I'm not trying to start trouble but I thought it was odd that you'd say something like that in a criticizing manner yet you say people should buy what the want...kind of...odd. People not wanting to buy GM products due to them receiving our money is absolutely a valid reason to look elsewhere. While I personally don't think that way the reason has a lot of a validity to it. Again, I'll say it again....if it turns out there's something fishy going on their books and loan repayment I'll never buy a new GM product again, I don't care if they want to give me a new SS for $100.

Well thats up to you, and to be honest I think that if GM was caught doing some seriously shady stuff with the books (above normal big corp shenanigans) then I think that will turn me off as well.

Al you cant compare ford to GM, just for the main reason that aford didnt take a bail out. If ford fails the only people taht hurt (besides employees obviously) are the people that willing invested in the company. The American people as a whole were forced without asking to invest in GM. I mean i don't have to explain my self in this thread you know how i feel and we've had numerous discussions on this topic, but i will say that its a huge **** story, because like said about unless they become very profitable they are just going to keep borrowing whether its from a bank or the govt and when will it stop?

I can compare Ford to GM. Ford also recieved money from the goverment in nearly the same way GM did, through a DoE "bailout" if you will. Its an intrest free, pay it back whenever you want loan that has no strings attached.
The difference between Ford and GM is that Ford sold its soul to the banks,a nd GM sold its soul to the goverment. Ford just did it before the banks dropped funding and Ford's credit went into the **** house. In fact, Ford's move to mortage the whole company was seen as a very risky and possibly very harmful move in late 2007 when they had no new product, no vision, nothing while GM was turning out better and better product.
Also, the investment into GM was made prior to this current adminstration so I hope you are not tying it down to the current President.


To Steve's comment about writing down 13 billion dollars, that was part of the VEBA contract. GM and the UAW was praised and still should deserve praise for what they did with reducing massive amounts of money pouring into benifits. Our current state government could learn something from it. You think the teachers union in a little state like NJ is bad? They got the UAW to budge on a LOT of stuff.
The UAW and GM employees have a very nice benifits package

[NastyEllEssWon]

did they give you an employee discount for the malibu? :lol:

[SteveR]

To Steve's comment about writing down 13 billion dollars, that was part of the VEBA contract. GM and the UAW was praised and still should deserve praise for what they did with reducing massive amounts of money pouring into benifits. Our current state government could learn something from it. You think the teachers union in a little state like NJ is bad? They got the UAW to budge on a LOT of stuff.
The UAW and GM employees have a very nice benifits package

It's not the details of the deal I was referring to, it's that GM keeps reporting debt write offs as profit when in reality sales are not generating these profits. The point is that eventually you run out of debt write offs and bank loans and the record losses will once again return.

[Tsar]

It's not the details of the deal I was referring to, it's that GM keeps reporting debt write offs as profit when in reality sales are not generating these profits. The point is that eventually you run out of debt write offs and bank loans and the record losses will once again return.
Easy solution - ask for another bailout.

Someone asked me if I was against all bailout - yes, if I remember correctly, I was. I surely am now. They already established a bad precedent, when that stupid volcano erupted the airlines were asking the .gov to be compensated for their "downtime" and their lost revenue.. WTF kinda business is that?

[BigAls87Z28]

It's not the details of the deal I was referring to, it's that GM keeps reporting debt write offs as profit when in reality sales are not generating these profits. The point is that eventually you run out of debt write offs and bank loans and the record losses will once again return.

GM hasnt posted a profit, so that makes no sense either?
Last month, GM sold more cars with 4 brands then they did with 8 a year ago.
There is a 33% gain in Retail sales across the 4 brands.

Everything you have said about GM could easily be said for Ford as well? Ford could just be using the loans from banks to say that they are making money.
That is pure speculation and total ********. The guy should have lost all credability when he said that GM had to sell 17 million cars in order to be profitable. GM, as of 2 years ago, could be profitable if they sold 25% of 15 million total cars sold in the US. To say that GM now has to sell more cars then the current market has been buying is insane, and I take whatever that guy said to you as nonsense.
You dont want to believe me, thats fine. Im just a GM fanboi that has no idea what Im talking about.
GM will just fall apart in 6 months anyway.

[SteveR]

Al, you know I love you. I'm not making fun or intentionally trying to stir up crap. It's just insulting when GM goes on tv and says they paid all the money back then it comes out that they are lying. It's also curious to me why a company like GM that has had unarguably the WORST marketing department in the history of marketing where they can't even market their own products, suddenly spends all this money for the production of and air time for this commercial. To me, and a lot of people I've talked to, it just looks like GM is trying to polish up its image before asking for more money from somewhere.

[BigAls87Z28]

GM is trying to get itself out of the limelight of the right. No one there wants to talk about BK, and they dont ever want to go back.
GM is full of some bright people, but I cant imagine that they thought they could pull the wool over our eyes. I cant imagine that the current administration would make a mistake like that after being attacked from day one!
Maybe Im just more optimisitic then some.
All of GM's new cars are selling well, and at high transaction prices and with no rebates.
GM is still spending money because they must get new and better product out faster then everyone else.
GM wants to clean up thier image so that they can launch an IPO, and regain its independence again. No one at GM wants the "Goverment Motors" moniker anymore. therei s no one inside, feet up on the desk, looking out the window with a smile on his face because teh goverment has thier back.
GM wants to get out of the line of fire asap. They see Ford's squeeky image since they didnt take any direct bail out funds or owned by the goverment. They want that.
GM will most deffinatly need loans in the future, as they have always have.
Prior to bail outs, GM as well as Ford and Chrysler, has had to rely on banks for funding, as foriegn companies could always go back to thier goverments for help in either funding or regulation.
Now Im not blaming the Japanese or the Europeans for GM's financial demise. GM made mistakes years ago, and it finally came back to haunt them at the worst moment possible.

I cannot imagine GM, with every right wing pundit and political member weeding through financial statements and books trying to find something, pull such a move like that. Maybe its just me. Could there be some fishy stuff going on, Im sure at some level.
Did GM give back money that was loaned to them by the Treasury because they no longer need it? Yes. Was it as clean and easy as they might have made it out to be in the commercial? Probably not, and it never is.

[NastyEllEssWon]

GM hasnt posted a profit, so that makes no sense either?
Last month, GM sold more cars with 4 brands then they did with 8 a year ago.
There is a 33% gain in Retail sales across the 4 brands.

Everything you have said about GM could easily be said for Ford as well? Ford could just be using the loans from banks to say that they are making money.
That is pure speculation and total ********. The guy should have lost all credability when he said that GM had to sell 17 million cars in order to be profitable. GM, as of 2 years ago, could be profitable if they sold 25% of 15 million total cars sold in the US. To say that GM now has to sell more cars then the current market has been buying is insane, and I take whatever that guy said to you as nonsense.
You dont want to believe me, thats fine. Im just a GM fanboi that has no idea what Im talking about.
GM will just fall apart in 6 months anyway.





considering the brands that gm axed mostly housed sister cars of something that the other 4 already sold only means their business is remaining the same as its been. axe 50 percent of your company, still offering the same products or something similar and gaining 33 percent more business in the other brands is just pushing sales to a more consolidated gm. only thing theyre saving is the extra overhead costs of having 4 extra brands with 1 or 2 unique vehicles.

[BigAls87Z28]

Its a very big drop in expense. It also allows the marketing money to go towards less cars, giving each car more money, IE Camaro's budget is for itself, and not to be shared with a Firebird.

When you look at stats of the dead brands, they have a very very low return rate to not only to GM but to the brand itself. I believe there is a recent report that only 33% of Pontiac owners returned to Pontiac or elsewhere in GM.
Saturn is also very low because for a very long time people didnt realize it was part of GM. When Chevy squashed a lot of development and funds set aside for Saturn, Saturn owners looking to move foward and upwards found nothing.
Hummer and Saab owners are also seen the same, not associating with a GM brand, and just the imagine of that brand. Saab and Hummer has/had a very loyal following, but will not return to GM.

[SteveR]

All of GM's new cars are selling well, and at high transaction prices and with no rebates.

Now Im not blaming the Japanese or the Europeans for GM's financial demise. GM made mistakes years ago, and it finally came back to haunt them at the worst moment possible.



GM makes a set profit off of each car sold. GM sells them to a distributor who then sells them to the stealerships. High transaction prices only puts more money in the stealership's pockets, not GM's.


GM has only itself to blame for it's financial demise. It was responsible for staying current with the changing demands not only in the domestic market, but in the dominating global market, and GM failed. GM should really take a look at Mercedes. Mercedes looks at markets in various sectors in the world and develops and markets to that sector. You will find MBs all over the place. GM on the other hand develops for bizarre small niche sectors and invests ludicrous dollars into a venture that will maybe break even. Like the CTS-V. LOVE the car, but a TV show paid for by GM on the SPEED Channel about how cool the CTS-V is? How many of them will they have to sell to cover the costs to promote a niche car? Why not promote something with a much larger market interest like oh say the Camaro? Maybe make commercials about diesel trucks?

We now live in a global marketplace and GM needs to adapt, or they won't survive.

[BigAls87Z28]

Id say based on GM's success elsewhere in the world, the problems are secluded to GM North America.
China, GM's joint ventures are raking in tons of money, and China now leads design on future Buicks.
GM Europe, while losing money due to massive amounts of funding for new products, is doing very well with its new Insigna and its new Astra.
Chevy in Europe is also expanding quickly as well. Its one of the fastest growing brands in Europe and China.
And Holden...well Oz's best selling car is a RWD, 2 ton V6 and V8 powered sedans with Lions on the front.
GM's financial problem was not because they were just burning 100's to light thier cigars, they were in the middle of a massive product surge. They were caught with thier pants down due to high labor costs, and banks failing left and right, leaving them no where to turn to for money.
GM had to show off its future products some 3-4 years into the future to the ATF in order to get any money.


GM North America has been its weak spot, and for good reason.