April 20, 2010 school board/budget votes

[ShitOnWheels]

Without getting political, please go vote during the election/budget vote today. But, PLEASE make sure to do some research before deciding which way to vote in regards to the budget.

[BigAls87Z28]

Whats funny is I JUST got my little ballot letter in the mail today!

[The Fixer]

Done!!! I went on my way home from work, and I'm hoping the budget passes in the town I work in so I still have a job in Sept.

Edit - just so you all know, this isn't a political statement, it's a personal fact.

[sweetbmxrider]

i'm not registered and don't know how go about that

[ShitOnWheels]

i'm not registered and don't know how go about that

While it won't help for today, go to your county's board of elections website and download the voter registration form.

[sweetbmxrider]

alright! always wondered why i wasn't registered.

[Featherburner]

i'm not registered and don't know how go about thatShame on you!
http://www.rockthevote.com/rtv_register.html?ms=rtv.com-topnavigation

[Squirrel]

headin out to vote in a bit, what time do the polls close?

[ShitOnWheels]

headin out to vote in a bit, what time do the polls close?

9pm.

[sweetbmxrider]

Shame on you!
http://www.rockthevote.com/rtv_register.html?ms=rtv.com-topnavigation



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its a sign....

[BonzoHansen]

no politics...

[Fleetwiz]

Was Vernon's defeated?

[WildBillyT]

Was Vernon's defeated?

Vernon's passed.

After the polls were closed, the vote count showed that proposed school budgets had been rejected by the voters in about half the school districts in the state, a result truly unprecedented in modern New Jersey political history. The political and policy ramifications of these results will be enormous.

There was a 46% pass rate, 54% rejection rate.

[Frosty]

I think things are going to start changing in NJ when it comes to that. It's a Catch 22 though, some teachers starting out make **** wages and truly care about their job.

It's the tenured and junk teachers that can't be fired that ruin it for everyone. It's the teachers already making big bucks in wealthy school districts that DEMAND more that ruin it for others...it's the NJEA that ruin it for others.

I feel for those that are going to or might lose their jobs.

[Mark B]

It's the tenured and junk teachers that can't be fired that ruin it for everyone. It's the teachers already making big bucks in wealthy school districts that DEMAND more that ruin it for others...it's the NJEA that ruin it for others.


Not to mention the 100's of overpaid administrators & principals.

[BigAls87Z28]

All this does is get rid of teachers, not reduce the pay of admins and board members.
Im embarrassed to be a member of this state.

[LTb1ow]

All this does is get rid of teachers, not reduce the pay of admins and board members.
Im embarrassed to be a member of this state.

So move? :idea:

[BonzoHansen]

All this does is get rid of teachers, not reduce the pay of admins and board members.
Im embarrassed to be a member of this state.

All what does? Voting down the budget (which is generally a moot point anyway)? All admin & staff costs are up to the BOE. A no vote does not mean only teacher cuts. Also most BOE members in NJ are not paid. Just cities.

I hope the teachers that chose to reopen their contracts and take wage freezes & shoulder a little of their med ins costs all keep their jobs. Like the rest of the nation has. I have a bit less sympathy for the locals that are unwilling to talk.

Wait until you see sports become pay to play.

[Frosty]

All this does is get rid of teachers, not reduce the pay of admins and board members.
Im embarrassed to be a member of this state.

Says who?

[BigAls87Z28]

What do you think the boards are gunna do: reduce their pay, or fire a bunch of expendable teachers?
I think that teachers need to take a more private sector approach to benifits, no doubt. And BOE members and superintendents need to have their pay levels reworked.
But this does none of that. This gets rid of teachers, and not reduce pay levels. Sure, you will get some to budge.
Tell me if you are in their shoes, would you cut your pay in a tough economic times? Or would you just get rid of a few new teachers. Whats the real difference between 30 kids to a class or 40 kids to a class? Is music that important? Do we need to offer Italian or French or even Spanish in schools?

[WildBillyT]

What do you think the boards are gunna do: reduce their pay, or fire a bunch of expendable teachers?
I think that teachers need to take a more private sector approach to benifits, no doubt. And BOE members and superintendents need to have their pay levels reworked.
But this does none of that. This gets rid of teachers, and not reduce pay levels. Sure, you will get some to budge.
Tell me if you are in their shoes, would you cut your pay in a tough economic times? Or would you just get rid of a few new teachers. Whats the real difference between 30 kids to a class or 40 kids to a class? Is music that important? Do we need to offer Italian or French or even Spanish in schools?

Yes. I did. So did everyone else in my company. And we let go of 20% of our workforce to stay alive a little while ago. Nobody here is remotely overpaid. I know what most make. And I got to fire my friends. And I'm not alone- I know of at least 3 other guys in different companies who had to do a similar deal.

Life has been **** in the private sector for a while. Ask a plumber, electrician, or other contract based employee how thier life has been. Or almost anybody else who's not a public employee.

This is just the poor economy hitting jobs that have been otherwise protected. Teachers, toll collectors, road crews, etc. Doesn't matter.

Most people in the private sector have been boned for a while. Now seems to be the time when the public employees take a hit. A lot of public services have been wasteful for a while. Sucks that it effects the lives of our children but they can't be used as a sheild against cutting the fat of a fatty system.

The shame of it is that all of the hard working teachers and other public employees will be **** on because of the actions of the lazy ones. But again, I'm all for merit based raises and security- not due to working just hard enough to not get fired over a period of time.

[BigAls87Z28]

I agree but the BOE is not going to make the cuts you did they will fire the teachers with a few thousand dollars in college loans. This IMO was the wrong way of cutting the fat. IMO the cut the meat as well.

[WildBillyT]

I agree but the BOE is not going to make the cuts you did they will fire the teachers with a few thousand dollars in college loans. This IMO was the wrong way of cutting the fat. IMO the cut the meat as well.

Hate to say it this way Al, but when that happens it's going to point the gun at BOE's stupid decisions, the NJEA, etc. Which is where it should be. But there will be punishment of people who don't deserve it.

[NastyEllEssWon]

i posted this yesterday but bonzo deleted it....now its on the same topic. cut the teachers budget and put that money somewhere else in the state.

[Mark B]

What do you think the boards are gunna do: reduce their pay, or fire a bunch of expendable teachers?
I think that teachers need to take a more private sector approach to benifits, no doubt. And BOE members and superintendents need to have their pay levels reworked.
But this does none of that. This gets rid of teachers, and not reduce pay levels. Sure, you will get some to budge.
Tell me if you are in their shoes, would you cut your pay in a tough economic times? Or would you just get rid of a few new teachers. Whats the real difference between 30 kids to a class or 40 kids to a class? Is music that important? Do we need to offer Italian or French or even Spanish in schools?

Unfortuantely, your right, voting down the buget is probably going to cost some teachers their jobs. However, we as the residents of NJ dont have any other way of forcing change. I dont think anybody wants teachers to loose their jobs. The entire system is screwed up and needs an overhaul. How could we possilbly create a system where the only people that have the power to fix the problem are the problem? Approving the budget would only allow those people to continue doing what they have been doing. We had to send the message that we are tired of the taxes and waste.

If you have another way to force the changes that have to be made, I would love to hear it.

[firehawk1120]

apparently Essex county didn't get the memo. Only 2 towns Cedar Grove and Fairfield knocked down the proposed budgets from what I can tell.

[T69SS]

Budget got shut down in Shamong. Same with Lenape Regional HS Dist.

[BonzoHansen]

What do you think the boards are gunna do: reduce their pay, or fire a bunch of expendable teachers?
I think that teachers need to take a more private sector approach to benifits, no doubt. And BOE members and superintendents need to have their pay levels reworked.
But this does none of that. This gets rid of teachers, and not reduce pay levels. Sure, you will get some to budge.
Tell me if you are in their shoes, would you cut your pay in a tough economic times? Or would you just get rid of a few new teachers. Whats the real difference between 30 kids to a class or 40 kids to a class? Is music that important? Do we need to offer Italian or French or even Spanish in schools?

I agree but the BOE is not going to make the cuts you did they will fire the teachers with a few thousand dollars in college loans. This IMO was the wrong way of cutting the fat. IMO the cut the meat as well.

What planet do you live on where no one is laid off or has their wages frozen or benefit costs increased? You bring up college costs? Really? Red herring much? People in the real world have those issues too. Many schools have starting rate over $50,000. Teachers are not fast food workers making minimum wages. I agree, a great teacher should make $100k, but the system is so f**ked it is impossible. The union will never allow the purging of bad teachers.

And again I'll tell you in most districts in this state BOE members are not paid. And you can go vote the BOE members out if they do not do what you want. Problem is BOE is getting to be such a PITA to be on that no one is running. There were incumbents running unopposed. Hey, how about you STFU and run?

Plus voting down a school budget is almost a worthless process, there is very little they can do. It goes to the town govt, and they can’t remove anything the state requires, and the budget must adhere to state guidelines. My gut is voted down budgets lead to the end of expensive sports (ice hockey) and other non-class stuff. The teacher cuts are already in the budget for the most part.

I know of school districts cutting admin/non-teaching staff and not filling positions, foregoing capital improvements, cutting sports and other non-class activities. It's not all teachers. And music and the arts are important. As are languages. Besides the state mandates require them. Go look into those unfunded mandates. We also need before and after school programs, especially in the ‘Abbott’ districts. That would help low income kids 100000 times more than a new football stadium (I’m looking at you Neptune).

All I am saying is if the local unions had a choice to open a contract and freeze wages in exchange for reduced or eliminated job losses and they said no, well, they had a choice most people in the real world do not get. Around here, according to what I’ve read, the locals that reopened the contract got a no layoff in return.

The whole system is a disaster. We need to eliminate local school districts and go to a county level setup which in theory eliminates a lot of overhead positions. Like district curriculum coordinator and lots of superintendent roles. I don’t know if they have any employees, but South Belmar has a BOE! No schools mind you, but they are a district. And there are many districts with K-5 or K-8. Kill them off now. And there should be no local teacher contract negotiations. And school costs should not be so reliant on property taxes. I’d rather see it come from the state with each district getting $x per student, that is it. There's no $$ left in NJ.

i posted this yesterday but bonzo deleted it....now its on the same topic. cut the teachers budget and put that money somewhere else in the state.Correct, but I changed my mind to see if it stayed non-political...for now.

[LS1Hawk]

http://www.northjersey.com/specialreports/schoolelections2010.html

[BigAls87Z28]

What planet do you live on where no one is laid off or has their wages frozen or benefit costs increased? You bring up college costs? Really? Red herring much? People in the real world have those issues too. Many schools have starting rate over $50,000. Teachers are not fast food workers making minimum wages. I agree, a great teacher should make $100k, but the system is so f**ked it is impossible. The union will never allow the purging of bad teachers.

Twisting what Im saying.
I think teachers should pay into thier benifits.
I think teachers union should sacrafice
Teachers are one of those specific fields, and not just another generic diploma. I would assume its a lot harder for a teacher to find another job without going back into training.

And again I'll tell you in most districts in this state BOE members are not paid. And you can go vote the BOE members out if they do not do what you want. Problem is BOE is getting to be such a PITA to be on that no one is running. There were incumbents running unopposed. Hey, how about you STFU and run?

Is there an age requirement?

Plus voting down a school budget is almost a worthless process, there is very little they can do. It goes to the town govt, and they can’t remove anything the state requires, and the budget must adhere to state guidelines. My gut is voted down budgets lead to the end of expensive sports (ice hockey) and other non-class stuff. The teacher cuts are already in the budget for the most part.

I hate to see sports being cut down, and other extracurricular events.

I know of school districts cutting admin/non-teaching staff and not filling positions, foregoing capital improvements, cutting sports and other non-class activities. It's not all teachers. And music and the arts are important. As are languages. Besides the state mandates require them. Go look into those unfunded mandates. We also need before and after school programs, especially in the ‘Abbott’ districts. That would help low income kids 100000 times more than a new football stadium (I’m looking at you Neptune).

Agreed, but thats not gunna be there.

All I am saying is if the local unions had a choice to open a contract and freeze wages in exchange for reduced or eliminated job losses and they said no, well, they had a choice most people in the real world do not get. Around here, according to what I’ve read, the locals that reopened the contract got a no layoff in return.

Who was given the choice? Individual teachers, or the unions and districts?


The whole system is a disaster. We need to eliminate local school districts and go to a county level setup which in theory eliminates a lot of overhead positions. Like district curriculum coordinator and lots of superintendent roles. I don’t know if they have any employees, but South Belmar has a BOE! No schools mind you, but they are a district. And there are many districts with K-5 or K-8. Kill them off now. And there should be no local teacher contract negotiations. And school costs should not be so reliant on property taxes. I’d rather see it come from the state with each district getting $x per student, that is it. There's no $$ left in NJ.

Correct, but I changed my mind to see if it stayed non-political...for now.

I was thinking about that, but take a county like monmouth where you range from the Rumson/MidSouth/Holmdel towns to the Asbury/Neputne/Long Brand areas. I dont think that having 21 districts would reduce the number of overhead positions, just restructures them.
I think any BOE that have zero schools should have been eliminated overnight.
How do you value one school over another? How do you value one kid over another? If every school gets the same money per student, how is that fair to schools that have special needs? How about schools like Monmouth County's vocational and specialized high schools like High Tech High, MAST, and Allied?

Its a tough call, but this to me way a hatchet move. I hate when education is cut, and its always cut first.

[LTb1ow]

Yea, Al, you could run. Most people round me don't last more than a year or two...

And yea... round us, can you imagine rumson school officials being told they are gonna be combined with long branch or asbury? lulz.

[BigAls87Z28]

They would riot! Or that RBC/CBA/Rainey School would be flooded with applications

[Frosty]

It does suck but when you have a scumbag union like the NJEA that creates this problem what are you supposed to do? "But think about the kids" only goes so far when a union like them strong arms taxpayer $$$ for ridiculous things. The party is over for them, if they were more tolerant and open to compromise then this would be a non-issue. A union that protects a very important part of our society can easily coexist with government and tax payers...but unfortunately they don't want to play ball so now the proverbial hatchet is being swung. Again, unfortunately the GOOD and new teachers get ****ed.

[The Fixer]

I'm gonna chime in a bit here, just because I've been a music teacher for 11 years, and was really sweating it out whether or not I would have a job in Sept. if our budget did not pass. The district I work in lost just over 2 million dollars in state aid, which forced the elimination of freshman sports, most 8th-grade sports, approx. 25 teachers (non-tenured and tenured), and another 25 positions (custodians, classroom aides, one nurse, and secretaries). If our budget didn't pass, even more positions would have to be cut to balance the budget. That's just one district with 50 people heading to the unemployment line in September, because you know there won't be another district in NJ hiring teachers or any other positions. And every college graduate in May of 2010 that was hoping to find a job as a teacher will now be effed as well. Now even if you go conservative and figure each district will have to cut loose 30 positions, you've just added about 10,000 people to the unemployment line in September, and my guess is that the number will be higher. That doesn't really seem like the greatest thing for our economy.

The governor's plan for a wage freeze would have only given our district back enough funds to cover 2 positions (for every $1,000,000 saved, you get back $75,000 in aid from the state). That's why we decided to not give in to the wage freeze. Don't forget, once you give in, you're opening the door to get stepped on again and again. If we gave in now, there's no reason why they wouldn't make us freeze our wages again next year, or the year after that. And, what good is a contract, if they can make you break it at any time? We negotiated in good faith, and both the BOE and the teacher's union agreed to it. If you were a GM of a major-league baseball team and hired a player for a 3-year/$30 million contract, you can't tell him to take a paycut a year later because the team needs a new stadium and they can't afford it. Is that his fault? He could sue for breach of contract if they don't pay.

Teacher's salaries are not all they're cracked up to be either. In the districts with higher starting pay, they already pay in for their benefits - that's the trade-off. In the district I work for, we take crappy pay so we can have good benefits. I'll be honest, there are 2nd year teachers in other districts making what I make now after 11 years in. And my wife, as a part-time RN, made more $$ than me (the full-time teacher) last year. And as a teacher, it takes at least 15 years to get to the top of the salary guide, whereas if you're a policeman (another public service job), you hit the top of the guide after 5 or 7 years.

Believe me, I know there is plenty of waste at the administrative level, but as Al said, that's not where the cuts will be. Is the boss gonna fire himself, or take a paycut? Nope, he's going to pass it along to the little guy down below. The superintendents make too much $$, and in a lot of schools, there are too many vice-principals, or Department Heads, or whatever, but they will eliminate people in the classroom. Sure, there are teachers making over $100K a year - they have their PhDs and have been teaching for well over 20 years. On our salary guide, if you have your bachelor's degree and wait until you hit the top in ~17 years, you'll only be raking in about $75K a year at the end. Most cops get to that point in 5 years, so we're certainly not the bad-guys here (and neither are cops, just saying that they make $$ a heck of a lot faster than we do :) ).

[BigAls87Z28]

Steve, some cops make that in year one. With more and more departments cutting cops, overtime is running out of control. I know Monmouth County Sheriffs that make over 100k in just a year due to overtime. What they publish is the base salary, but overtime racks up real fast.

What concerns me is that Christie does not care about a 2nd term, and that could be a very big problem.
Not only for the state, but for the future of the republican party. The republican party here in NJ better hope that this pans out, because cutting massive amounts of education while giving tax breaks to the rich, means more suffering on the middle and lower class. More people out of job means that he could bring a Bush-like rath come election time for anyone under the republican flag.

[Frosty]

What concerns me is that Christie does not care about a 2nd term, and that could be a very big problem.
Not only for the state, but for the future of the republican party. The republican party here in NJ better hope that this pans out, because cutting massive amounts of education while giving tax breaks to the rich, means more suffering on the middle and lower class. More people out of job means that he could bring a Bush-like rath come election time for anyone under the republican flag.

Very true but people were fed up with the Democrats and rightfully so, they've driven that state into shambles(then again lame brain Whitman didn't help either).

NJ is proof that party lines don't matter...both sides are corrupt, both sides are in self-preservation mode. It'll take DECADES to shed the corruption in that God forsaken state...it's a shame....I still consider it my home state and it's just pathetic how bad it's gotten.

[BonzoHansen]

Is there an age requirement?18
I hate to see sports being cut down, and other extracurricular events. me too.
Agreed, but thats not gunna be there. Abbott districts are a total waste of our money. Throwing $$ at schools solves nothing, stats back that up. It's the parents that make the #1 difference. That is why before & after care at schools is money better spent. Keeps at risk kids off the streets and gives them more educational opportunity.
Who was given the choice? Individual teachers, or the unions and districts? The BOE can ask the local union. Look at Steve's answer.
I was thinking about that, but take a county like monmouth where you range from the Rumson/MidSouth/Holmdel towns to the Asbury/Neputne/Long Brand areas. I dont think that having 21 districts would reduce the number of overhead positions, just restructures them.
I think any BOE that have zero schools should have been eliminated overnight.
How do you value one school over another? How do you value one kid over another? If every school gets the same money per student, how is that fair to schools that have special needs? How about schools like Monmouth County's vocational and specialized high schools like High Tech High, MAST, and Allied?

Its a tough call, but this to me way a hatchet move. I hate when education is cut, and its always cut first.You have to separate out things like special ed. Special ed can wipe out a district due to state laws. If you have a child in your district with needs that can't be met in district the district has to pay for the child's transportation to whatever school they go to as well as the child's education. One child can run over $50k to even over $100k in one year and the district has to pay. For a child that can never be on their own or be a functional adult (at least in the one $120k case I know about), that sure is a big nickle that state mandates make towns pay for. The state needs to pick up the tabs of things like that - they mandate it, they pay for it. The feds need to do the same with the NCLB nonsense.

The entire process needs to be wiped out and started over. It's a total mess with graft on all sides.

And get down to the brass tax here. The state has to close an $11 BILLION hole by June 30th. Tax revenues are down both at state and local levels. You can't tax more. Our oppressive tax structures chases out small & medium sized business owners. There needs to be cuts everywhere. Over the past 10 years public school enrollment is down yet school spending is up. Overall government jobs are up. Our state & local governments have been pissing away $$ at an alarming rate. Whitman really kicked it off and it only got worse after that. DiFransisco raised nj state pension benefits and did zero to pay for it. Corzine did stuff like cut sweetheart deals with the CWA and basically finished off the job. There is guilt on both sides of the aisle. A note to you card carrying lefties & nighties, the only bi-partisan thing they do is screw us. That is my politically neutral comment.

I've got 2 kids in public school so I have more at stake here than half the people on this board. But the state is broke in more ways than one. You can't pay people with IOUs forever. I feel bad for anyone laid off - but I watched over 15,000 people lose their jobs at my old company. When the inflow of $$ stops, the outflow has to stop too. Fact of life.

[BigAls87Z28]

I dont think anyone is saying it shouldn't, but what is going on is not fixing it. Yes, its stopping spending...but in the worst way possible.
My town has two supers...TWO! For FIVE schools! 3 elementry, 1 middle and 1 high school! One makes some outragious amount of money, the other not to far behind.
Why isnt Christie reducing that? Why can he not eleminate management jobs?


I dont agree that Abbott funding is worthless either. I think how the money is handled. again a managment issue, is a problem. Again, no restrictions or rules set down by the Gov...just cut millions.

[BonzoHansen]

You are missing the point. Christie isn't doing anything but cutting $$. He can't. It is up to the local BOE. Get on their case. I think that is part of this - to force the discussion. I suspect you'll see some school funding returned - this budget is not passed yet. But now people are thinking and talking. IMO that is where Steve's excessive union dues should go to - fix the system, not try to maintain status quo.

Make Abbott schools full day 8-5 and I'll talk extra money. They have so much $$ they have no idea what to do with it and test scores do not improve at all. And IMO that is discriminatory to the rest of the towns. As it stands today it is another failed result of our liberal state judges attempt at social engineering.

[The Fixer]

You are missing the point. Christie isn't doing anything but cutting $$. He can't. It is up to the local BOE. Get on their case. I think that is part of this - to force the discussion. I suspect you'll see some school funding returned - this budget is not passed yet. But now people are thinking and talking. IMO that is where Steve's excessive union dues should go to - fix the system, not try to maintain status quo.


I'm with you there :) , and I agree with having the state pick up the tab for the special needs kids that can't be accommodated in their own district. We've had quite a few over the years that needed to go out-of-district, and by the time you figure in their transportation costs plus the tuition fee it was an easy $50-75K per-student cost. That's BIG money if you have more than one or two special-needs cases to cover. Don't forget, if the kid is in your district from the beginning, you're paying that $75K on out-of-district costs every year for 12 years, which comes out to $900K by the time that kid graduates.

[Mark B]

because cutting massive amounts of education while giving tax breaks to the rich



Geez... Im so tired of hearing people say this. Christie didnt give rich people a tax break!!! Corzine let a tax surcharge expire before he left! The people that you want to tax are the same people that generate jobs in this state. You keep taxing these people and you will see more and more jobs leave the state. Not everyone in NJ has a government job. We need these people to stay here.

In the last 6 years, 70 billion dollars of wealth has moved out of the state. Thats alot of tax revenue.

[Mark B]

Don't forget, once you give in, you're opening the door to get stepped on again and again. If we gave in now, there's no reason why they wouldn't make us freeze our wages again next year, or the year after that. And, what good is a contract, if they can make you break it at any time? We negotiated in good faith, and both the BOE and the teacher's union agreed to it.


If that’s how you feel, be prepared to see more of your coworkers lose their jobs. We are in a depression. NJ taxpayers just don’t have the money to keep paying. I, like many people, haven’t gotten a raise in 2+ years. Actually, my income dropped a few points last year. Why are members of the NJEA so special that they deserve to be unaffected by the downturn in the economy?

[The Fixer]

Why are members of the NJEA so special that they deserve to be unaffected by the downturn in the economy?

We're not, but - we have a contract, a legal, binding document, that says they have to pay us. My district negotiated this contract 2 years ago, and we have 2 years left on it. There are plenty of public employees in the same situation. The PBA and FOP would go nuts if the governor asked them to take a wage freeze. And, I'm sure the governor isn't taking a pay freeze, or any of the people in his office. Also, the state employees that opened their contracts to take furlough days (days without pay) did so with the agreement that they would receive an 11% increase in salary next year. That's a helluva lot bigger increase than I'll ever see as a teacher.

[Mark B]

We're not, but - we have a contract, a legal, binding document, that says they have to pay us. My district negotiated this contract 2 years ago, and we have 2 years left on it. There are plenty of public employees in the same situation. The PBA and FOP would go nuts if the governor asked them to take a wage freeze. And, I'm sure the governor isn't taking a pay freeze, or any of the people in his office. Also, the state employees that opened their contracts to take furlough days (days without pay) did so with the agreement that they would receive an 11% increase in salary next year. That's a helluva lot bigger increase than I'll ever see as a teacher.

If you cant bend, then expect layoffs. The NJEA is going down the same path as the UAW. You have negotiated yourselves right out of jobs.

[NastyEllEssWon]

We're not, but - we have a contract, a legal, binding document, that says they have to pay us. My district negotiated this contract 2 years ago, and we have 2 years left on it. There are plenty of public employees in the same situation. The PBA and FOP would go nuts if the governor asked them to take a wage freeze. And, I'm sure the governor isn't taking a pay freeze, or any of the people in his office. Also, the state employees that opened their contracts to take furlough days (days without pay) did so with the agreement that they would receive an 11% increase in salary next year. That's a helluva lot bigger increase than I'll ever see as a teacher.




you arent the only profession affected by this and to think about it in the positive light, its only now affecting the teaching profession, which means you enjoyed the last downturn in the economy with relative ease. welcome to the real economy....its pretty effed up :nod:

[ShitOnWheels]

Disclaimer - I'm not a teacher, I'm a school psychologist, but I'm part of the NJEA so I lump myself with the teachers.

It's not that teachers don't want to help. We aren't refusing a pay freeze because we don't want to take a freeze. As Steve said, we have contracts. If you had a contract with someone to pay a certain amount of money, you think you could just break that contract to pay less? Or if the person you were paying wanted more? Doesn't happen that way. Why should it be allowed to happen to teachers? And in many districts that did take the pay freeze, they STILL had layoffs and their budgets were STILL defeated. Kinda defeats the purpose, no?

Sure, the private sector has seen layoffs, pay freezes/cuts, and pay in to their benefits. However, when the private sector was seeing huge bonuses and raises year after year back in the 90s, what did the teachers get? Their normal negotiated raises. They didn't complain they weren't getting the same raises and bonuses, because they knew they had a contract and had to abide by it.

As for paying into benefits, I'd have no problem with this either. But you have to realize that 2 people with the same credentials between the private and public sector (degree, years experience, etc) do NOT make the same amount in most cases. I have my BA and an EdS (between a Masters and a doctorate), and I make less than my husband in the private sector who never finished his BA. If pay was similar, it'd be easier to pay into benefits. Teachers with just a BA do not make $50k except maybe in the wealthiest of districts. It often takes 5 years, maybe more, to get there for a teacher with just a BA. With a Masters, maybe they start closer to $50k and take less time to get there. It takes 15 years to see the top of the salary guide, or about $75k - $80k. Teachers do not also get 4% raise every year. The amount of money that goes to all salaries increases by 4%, but is distributed among all steps of the salary guide, so it's usually only a 1-2% raise each year, if we're lucky (my raises are about $1000 each year - very minimal really). And although contracts are for 6 hours 185 days per year, most work much more than that. Some have tallied all the extra time they do work, and have added an addition 2 weeks to 2 months above and beyond. But they don't get overtime and don't ask for a penny more. (in fact, as soon as I finish this, I will be spending about 4 hours on work, as I have a ton of IEPs to write and many other work related things to get done that I couldn't complete in the normal work day)

A lot of people go in to teaching because they have a passion for it, and enjoy it. The benefits make it much more attractive, and attract good and great teachers to the profession. Without that, you'd have a lot of people who want to teach, but because of the pay and/or lack of benefits, decide to go to the private sector instead. Who is left to teach your kids?

The other thing people aren't considering is, with a pay freeze and/or paying in to our benefits, that's less spendable money to pay for necessities and luxuries, which results in lower sales tax and income tax revenue next year. So then what? Another pay freeze and more money into our benefits? The cycle never ends. When the economy does eventually pick up and more money is available, teachers will NEVER see that money back. It's not like they'll "catch up" to where they should have been if they never took the cut, which would typically happen in the private sector.

[BonzoHansen]

I want to interject here as now I've seen the term used numerous times. FWIW if you agree to open a contract and agree to changes, that is not breaking a contract. Like when the MLBPA finally allowed drug testing. They opened the contract, MLB did not break it. If your union is using that term shame on them for incorrect and hostile rhetoric.

How the renegotiation goes is the job of the union negotiator. WW-P (IIRC) teachers agreed to pay freeze in exchange for no layoff clause. It can be done. If a union negotiator opened a contract mid term and allowed a pay freeze w/o job protection you have a giant gripe with the union. They failed - that is the job teachers pay them $700+ annually to perform. I'd take the union to task. I get the sense few teachers would do that.

Good teachers should make $100,000. I honestly believe that. When the teachers agree to help purge the crappy teachers I'd be all ears. But while they remain protected to a fault I have some trouble making that argument. Doing a job for 20 years does not entitle you to more money. Doing it well for 20 years does. That is generally how it works in the real world.

I personally did not get into teaching because of the salary. I knew that in college. I've always thought it was one of those jobs that was done for "the right reasons", not cash. I like cash more. I would like the hours (as I prepare for my weekly Thursday night conference call). I enjoyed my time as an adjunct prof at TCNJ and if it weren't for a mortgage & a baby I would have gotten my PHd and become a college prof. I researched it for weeks. Teaching is personally rewarding. But in a public school or a even in college if your specialty is not in short supply, it is not terrible rewarding financially.

[Mark B]

Disclaimer - I'm not a teacher, I'm a school psychologist, but I'm part of the NJEA so I lump myself with the teachers.

It's not that teachers don't want to help. We aren't refusing a pay freeze because we don't want to take a freeze. As Steve said, we have contracts. If you had a contract with someone to pay a certain amount of money, you think you could just break that contract to pay less? Or if the person you were paying wanted more? Doesn't happen that way. Why should it be allowed to happen to teachers? And in many districts that did take the pay freeze, they STILL had layoffs and their budgets were STILL defeated. Kinda defeats the purpose, no?

Sure, the private sector has seen layoffs, pay freezes/cuts, and pay in to their benefits. However, when the private sector was seeing huge bonuses and raises year after year back in the 90s, what did the teachers get? Their normal negotiated raises. They didn't complain they weren't getting the same raises and bonuses, because they knew they had a contract and had to abide by it.

As for paying into benefits, I'd have no problem with this either. But you have to realize that 2 people with the same credentials between the private and public sector (degree, years experience, etc) do NOT make the same amount in most cases. I have my BA and an EdS (between a Masters and a doctorate), and I make less than my husband in the private sector who never finished his BA. If pay was similar, it'd be easier to pay into benefits. Teachers with just a BA do not make $50k except maybe in the wealthiest of districts. It often takes 5 years, maybe more, to get there for a teacher with just a BA. With a Masters, maybe they start closer to $50k and take less time to get there. It takes 15 years to see the top of the salary guide, or about $75k - $80k. Teachers do not also get 4% raise every year. The amount of money that goes to all salaries increases by 4%, but is distributed among all steps of the salary guide, so it's usually only a 1-2% raise each year, if we're lucky (my raises are about $1000 each year - very minimal really). And although contracts are for 6 hours 185 days per year, most work much more than that. Some have tallied all the extra time they do work, and have added an addition 2 weeks to 2 months above and beyond. But they don't get overtime and don't ask for a penny more. (in fact, as soon as I finish this, I will be spending about 4 hours on work, as I have a ton of IEPs to write and many other work related things to get done that I couldn't complete in the normal work day)

A lot of people go in to teaching because they have a passion for it, and enjoy it. The benefits make it much more attractive, and attract good and great teachers to the profession. Without that, you'd have a lot of people who want to teach, but because of the pay and/or lack of benefits, decide to go to the private sector instead. Who is left to teach your kids?

The other thing people aren't considering is, with a pay freeze and/or paying in to our benefits, that's less spendable money to pay for necessities and luxuries, which results in lower sales tax and income tax revenue next year. So then what? Another pay freeze and more money into our benefits? The cycle never ends. When the economy does eventually pick up and more money is available, teachers will NEVER see that money back. It's not like they'll "catch up" to where they should have been if they never took the cut, which would typically happen in the private sector.


Once again... Its fine if you feel that way. Just stop complaining about the layoffs. That is the choice your union & the BOE's have made.

And dont think for a second that we are going to miss the sales tax and income tax you wouldn't be paying if you took a freeze. We are paying 100% of your salary! The 20% of your raise that we would get back in taxes still leaves us 80% down.

Im in the private sector. Im not going to "catch up" on the raises that I missed the last two years. And I highly doubt anybody else is going to either.

[transmaro93]

bottom line is that if they don't stop or at least freeze the spending in this state, its not going to get any easier to live in. NJ has one of the highest tax brackets in the country right now and we still have deficit problems?? I mean does that really make sense to anybody? Sorry but if you don't touch the larger parts of the govt like the education system your just not going to make a difference. BTW Al you said that you dont like that its falling on the teachers and not the admins... Well that is the BOE decision not the governors office, Alls he can do is set the funds in place. Its the BOE job to distribute those funds. I don't want to see "good" teachers get fired, but i mean how many thousands of people were fired this past 2 years?? I'm lucky to still have a job, but come on what makes them so special to be the only class of people in this economy to get a raise and budget raise. And nobody would have to be fired if the unions and BOE just budged a little bit, but they refuse. So all that negative feedback should be directed at them. Those unions hemorrhage money when the rest of us are trying just to put a loaf of bread on the table. JUST MAKES ME SO HAPPY THAT PEOPLE WENT OUT AND VOTED TO SHOW THAT THE PEOPLE OF NJ STILL RUN THIS STATE, NOT THE UNIONS. bricks budget was voted down almost by a 2:1 vote!

[WildBillyT]

First of many:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/tom_river_school_chiefs_office.html