Brakes

[qwikz28]

I am not good at them, but both my cars need new ones.

Saturn:
Needs pads and rotors and a flush. Problem is, the rears are drums. Should I tackle it myself or send it to a Mieneke? Also, last time I did a flush on my friends car, it didn't come out right as the pedal was really mushy. I don't think I bled the brakes in the correct order though. It is RR, RL, FR, FL? I did RR, FL, RL, FR which was more of a diagonal kind of deal.

Camaro:
Getting CTS-v calipers up front and new brake lines. Should be straight forward I assume. Although I looked at my current pads last week, and they are missing a clip on either side (which explains the super annoying swishing sound that I've been hearing as I drive) but I ask, will the new pads come with clips? They aren't pictured on the website. Also, what is the pin kit for with the new calipers? I ordered them anyway cause I was told I need them.

Thanks in advance guys.

[NastyEllEssWon]

start the bleeding on the brake furthest from the master cylinder and work your way towards it.

[HardcoreZ28]

I actually heard last year a guy from SSBC interviewed and asked about the order of bleeding. Apparently you can do any order....they just suggest furthest from the master to closest as a method of remembering which ones you've done.

[qwikz28]

I actually heard last year a guy from SSBC interviewed and asked about the order of bleeding. Apparently you can do any order....they just suggest furthest from the master to closest as a method of remembering which ones you've done.

I just looked up Stoptech's how-to online and it I think my problem was I left the bleeder open too long. It says to open it for 1 second spurts. I think I can do that.

Thanks Paul.

[BigAls87Z28]

The do it from the farthest is so that you bleed out the bubbles farthest away from the master.

But not all cars go that way. We used to have a Wagner/Raybestos book that actually had the correct specific way of bleeding brakes depending on the car.
Cars with ABS systems also play tricks on you. You can get air in the ABS unit, and that is a PITA to bleed unless you have the correct scan tool that can cycle the system.

[qwikz28]

do shops have tools that bleed the brakes more effectively, like a power steering flushing system? Or do they do it conventionally like I would?

[NastyEllEssWon]

http://www.toyota120.com/assets/images/web_Vacuum_bleeder.jpg


yes most shops have an air powered vacuum bleeder...you can get the same effect with this



http://hijet.de/wp/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/mityvac-700-500.JPG

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah they use shop air to suck the fluid out from the bleeder. Its pretty cool.

[qwikz28]

I have one of those mightyvacs, it is garbage. It didn't work.

I think I may have a shop do the Saturn. Too much for me to experiment with. Can't afford to experiment with the daily driver.

The Camaro is getting new lines and calipers so I'm gonna try it first myself, but if it doesn't come out good, I think I'm gonna have a shop redo it. I hate brakes. This is all too complicated for me.

[NastyEllEssWon]

lol theres no shame in wanting it done right the first time. im curious as to why you dont like your mityvac, ive had mine for about 5 years and it works great for getting majority of the bubbles out quick, then do one stomp of the pedal the old fashioned way and its wonderful...beats an afternoon pumping pedals :nod:

[qwikz28]

lol theres no shame in wanting it done right the first time. im curious as to why you dont like your mityvac, ive had mine for about 5 years and it works great for getting majority of the bubbles out quick, then do one stomp of the pedal the old fashioned way and its wonderful...beats an afternoon pumping pedals :nod:

I must have not set it up correctly because it did work at all for me. Maybe I'll find someone local with one that can show me how to work it. I may have thrown it out though...

[qwikz28]

http://www.toyota120.com/assets/images/web_Vacuum_bleeder.jpg


yes most shops have an air powered vacuum bleeder...you can get the same effect with this


did some research and am buying this. I'm currently in bed so I'm not getting up to find my credit card. This should save me some money. It's about 60 dollars and should save me labor costs which is exciting. I'm sure its good to have around too.

[WildBillyT]

did some research and am buying this. I'm currently in bed so I'm not getting up to find my credit card. This should save me some money. It's about 60 dollars and should save me labor costs which is exciting. I'm sure its good to have around too.

I have one, and love it.

[qwikz28]

Bill- I don't need speedbleeders in conjunction with this right?

[WildBillyT]

Bill- I don't need speedbleeders in conjunction with this right?

Nope.

Don't forget to test the system to make sure it holds pressure with just air at first.

[qwikz28]

Nope.

Don't forget to test the system to make sure it holds pressure with just air at first.

I didn't know that. I'm hoping it comes with instructions. I also don't know if I have to bleed the ABS unit seperately but I'll figure that out when the time comes. I'll likely not be doing it until next week when all the parts come in. I saw EchoMirage post up somewhere about bleeding ABS unit but I lost the link. Oh well.

[Troy]

did some research and am buying this. I'm currently in bed so I'm not getting up to find my credit card. This should save me some money. It's about 60 dollars and should save me labor costs which is exciting. I'm sure its good to have around too.


"I'm currently in bed so I'm not getting up to find my credit card"... thanks for the laugh!

[Knipps]

Jake, after you do yours you want to do mine? I have pads and rotors waiting to go on :lol:

[qwikz28]

"I'm currently in bed so I'm not getting up to find my credit card"... thanks for the laugh!

Thanks! For too long my wit has gone unnoticed!
Jake, after you do yours you want to do mine? I have pads and rotors waiting to go on :lol:

Actually, its not a bad idea. We can do it together, and use the pump to bleed the brakes. It shouldn't take too long.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Jake, after you do yours you want to do mine? I have pads and rotors waiting to go on :lol:




you dont have to bleed the brakes unless you undo a line or caliper hose

[sweetbmxrider]

ya and brake flushing is just silly. brake fluid shouldn't get contaminated unless something is doing just that.

[qwikz28]

ya and brake flushing is just silly. brake fluid shouldn't get contaminated unless something is doing just that.

Actually, brake fluid can get cooked under aggressive driving. I drive aggressively, thus I will bleed my brakes!

[NastyEllEssWon]

lol we're talking to knipps :nod:

[Knipps]

:wavey:

[V]

knipps doesnt need bleeding even, i told him already lol

[sweetbmxrider]

Actually, brake fluid can get cooked under aggressive driving. I drive aggressively, thus I will bleed my brakes!

switch to dot 4 or 5, higher boiling point

[WildBillyT]

switch to dot 4 or 5, higher boiling point

Dot 5 can give you a spongy pedal. And I am not sure if it will work with ABS.

[qwikz28]

switch to dot 4 or 5, higher boiling point

Like Bill said, I am not sure it is compatible. I'd rather just stick to whats in the Service Manual and do multiple flushes. I don't want a spongy pedal or an inoperative ABS system

[WildBillyT]

Like Bill said, I am not sure it is compatible. I'd rather just stick to whats in the Service Manual and do multiple flushes. I don't want a spongy pedal or an inoperative ABS system

You can use a higher grade dot 3/4. I forget what I have, maybe Castrol GT-LMA?

[BonzoHansen]

switch to dot 4 or 5, higher boiling pointBoiling point is not really an issue for street cars. Regular autocrossers & open trackers sure.

Happy reading:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml

We won’t even discuss DOT 5 fluids as they are completely unacceptable to the high-performance enthusiast..... Silicone-based DOT 5 fluids are for non-driven trailer queens because they don't have the moisture issues like the others..

but the message here is this: it’s fine to upgrade from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 3 fluid B, but you should think twice (maybe even three times) before switching from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 4 fluid of any sort.

Then it gets into 5.1 v 5, and how some quality DOT3 may be better than a cheaper DOT4.

Best advice for a street car is to stay with what you have, likely DOT3.

[qwikz28]

Boiling point is not really an issue for street cars. Regular autocrossers & open trackers sure.

Happy reading:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml

We won’t even discuss DOT 5 fluids as they are completely unacceptable to the high-performance enthusiast..... Silicone-based DOT 5 fluids are for non-driven trailer queens because they don't have the moisture issues like the others..

but the message here is this: it’s fine to upgrade from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 3 fluid B, but you should think twice (maybe even three times) before switching from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 4 fluid of any sort.

Then it gets into 5.1 v 5, and how some quality DOT3 may be better than a cheaper DOT4.

Best advice for a street car is to stay with what you have, likely DOT3.

Yup, thats what I'm doing for the Saturn. Camaro is getting ATE Super Blue

[sweetbmxrider]

Boiling point is not really an issue for street cars. Regular autocrossers & open trackers sure.

he said his brake fluid was cooking and i said dot 4 and 5 have higher boiling points.

[BonzoHansen]

he said his brake fluid was cooking and i said dot 4 and 5 have higher boiling points.

He said “Actually, brake fluid can get cooked under aggressive driving. I drive aggressively, thus I will bleed my brakes!“. He didn’t say he had an issue, he inferred he could. Other then rare exceptions (people who drive like idiots or another malfunction that causes it), quality DOT3 that is flushed as required will not give you boil issues on a street car. Again, autox/open track is a different story.

I'm having trouble distinguishing the stupid from the sarcasm in this thread. Brake fluid should be flushed ~every 2 years as it draws in moisture. I do it whenever I change pads, easy to remember. Plus I always open the bleeders when I push calipers back in because you are supposed to so you don’t push contaminants back up into the system. But I know the shade trees will disagree with that and they are always right. :rolleyes:

[sweetbmxrider]

well when an abs valve gets stuck open then they will learn.

does moisture cause brake fluid to turn into a dark color?

[qwikz28]

Plus I always open the bleeders when I push calipers back in because you are supposed to so you don’t push contaminants back up into the system.

Really? I thought you just gotta uncap the reservoir

[BonzoHansen]

Really? I thought you just gotta uncap the reservoir

That makes no sense to me. You're still pushing & forcing fluid back in a direction is it not supposed to be forced, along with whatever is in the fliud.

[qwikz28]

any suggestions on how to take brake drums off?

Edit: got one off. The other one is gonna take some persuading, but not until after lunch

[BonzoHansen]

is the ebrake off?

Is it stuck on the hub or hanging on the shoes?

Do the drums have threaded holes in them? If so you can run bolts in. I don't remember if they have them on saturns.

Some PB blaster around the hub and a BFH on the drum face.

[qwikz28]

is the ebrake off?

Is it stuck on the hub or hanging on the shoes?

Do the drums have threaded holes in them? If so you can run bolts in. I don't remember if they have them on saturns.

Some PB blaster around the hub and a BFH on the drum face.

For some reason there is no holes in them. What I did was wack a hammer around the lip, but not on the face, but rather from inside the well. It worked for the drivers side, but now I'm wacking left handed on the passenger side. We'll see. It looks really rusty in there, but there seems to be a ton of material left on teh shoes.

I bought replacement drums so I'm not worried about damaging them.

Thanks for the response. I'm sure I'll be popping in with more questions soon. I hate brakes

[BigAls87Z28]

Drums, just keep hitting them till they come off.

DOT4 is for BMW's.

[BonzoHansen]

Remember, do one side at a time so you have a reference.

[qwikz28]

yup. Just want to get the offer drum off before I rip one side apart.

[qwikz28]

Drum isn't coming off. Gonna go find a puller. It is snagged on the pads for some reason. I don't know how to release the pads. I suppose I could open the bleeder valve since I'll be bleeding anyway. Hmm... I'll think about it.

[NastyEllEssWon]

take a look at the other side drum (the one you have off). check to see if there is an adjustment wheel on the backside of the drumplate. sometimes theres a little hole on the back that you can shove a brake fork in the hole and adjust the shoe to drum clearance while the hat is on...that will loosen up the shoes from the hat

[BonzoHansen]

What he said. And drums use shoes, not pads. ;)

[sweetbmxrider]

don't take the other side apart yet. try prying behind it too but turning the adjuster in is the best bet.

[NastyEllEssWon]

http://www.basiccarrepair.com/images/239-2.jpg



yeah look for a slot on the back of the drum mount plate. then you can spin the starwheel inside and relieve the pressure on the hat :nod:

[qwikz28]

This car does not have a hole for the adjustment. I went to autoparts store near my house, guy is an ex-saturn tech. He said my only option is to keep hammering.

[qwikz28]

GOT IT!

After all that, I got it off by pulling it with my hands. Doused it in PB Blaster (more than before, and a few lucky prys with the screw driver. Nothing broke either. :w00t:

[BigAls87Z28]

Ahahaha...good stuff Jake!

Now comes the hard part...fixing drum brakes!

[NastyEllEssWon]

Ahahaha...good stuff Jake!

Now comes the hard part...fixing drum brakes!





just a few springs????

[qwikz28]

Update:

The drum brakes were actually super easy once the drums were off. Shoes and new drums went on fine.

Then, as I was bleeding the first corner, a square inch block of metal where the bleeder screw attaches snapped off. It is leaking brake fluid everywhere. My father loaned my his car. I'm gonna tow it to a shop nearby and tell them to fix it and then bleed it themselves. I'm mad depressed.

PS- that piece of garbage Motive bleeder didn't work. It had a leak in the hose and wouldn't hold pressure

[BonzoHansen]

you mean like the whole caliper or wheel cyl broke?


I'll take that motive if you're just gonna throw it away :p

[sweetbmxrider]

wtf you break?

[NastyEllEssWon]

http://www.car-stuff.com/store/images/prodimage/images/centric/ce134.62068updated.jpg




good thing theyre only like 20 bucks for a new wheel cylinder

[qwikz28]

http://www.car-stuff.com/store/images/prodimage/images/centric/ce134.62068updated.jpg




good thing theyre only like 20 bucks for a new wheel cylinder

Exactly that. It is essentially the entire piece where the bleeder attaches. It sheared off. I thought I overtightened it and stripped the bleeder, but the entire thing just broke. It was so frustrating.

[WildBillyT]

Update:

The drum brakes were actually super easy once the drums were off. Shoes and new drums went on fine.

Then, as I was bleeding the first corner, a square inch block of metal where the bleeder screw attaches snapped off. It is leaking brake fluid everywhere. My father loaned my his car. I'm gonna tow it to a shop nearby and tell them to fix it and then bleed it themselves. I'm mad depressed.

PS- that piece of garbage Motive bleeder didn't work. It had a leak in the hose and wouldn't hold pressure

Mine works like a charm! Did you replace the hose?

[qwikz28]

Mine works like a charm! Did you replace the hose?

I suppose I will call Motive and ask them to send me a hose. It's a huge pain though. I need my car back and by the time I get the hose, my car will already be done.

I have another question: how long does it take for clean fluid to get to the furthest brake? I feel like I opened and closed teh bleeder valve 15 times and was still getting dirty fluid. I used a turkey baster to get the old fluid out of the reservoir and then filled it with clean fluid.

[sweetbmxrider]

thats why you use the vacuum canister, it takes a little bit.

[qwikz28]

Eh. I gave up. Dropped it off at the shop down the street. I am gonna call Motive and yell. I blame them.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in this thread. For some reason, I have never had brakes go smoothly with me. Argh!

[qwikz28]

after all that, the brakes suck. look at the pad contact on the front rotor. yikes! I have to drive that thing to Coney Island tonight too

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/Snake3660/photo1.jpg

[WildBillyT]

after all that, the brakes suck. look at the pad contact on the front rotor. yikes! I have to drive that thing to Coney Island tonight too

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/Snake3660/photo1.jpg

Were they bedded-in (burnished)?

[qwikz28]

I did about 5 stops from 60 to 5mph. Still the same issue. The pedal (not the steering wheel) pulsates at high speed braking as well. I'm about to go remove the caliper and see whats up. It seems like an issue with the pads.

[BonzoHansen]

are the slides good, does the caliper move freely?

[BigAls87Z28]

Make sure that you didnt twist the brake hoses when you put the caliper back on.
Getting a pulsation in the pedal when braking, but not the steering wheel, sounds like something with the drum.

[qwikz28]

Ok, well I just checked it out with the wheels off, and the pad is now making full contact with the rotor. The pedal feel is still off though. I just checked the hoses and they are straight. I think my next plan of attack may be a full fluid flush. It has only had a bleed and the fluid in the reservoir still looks dirty.

Al what do you mean that you think its the drum? Do you think its warped? It has been replaced. To clarify, it only pulsates at about 40mph or higher stops, and only in the pedal. It almost feels like the ABS is engaging.

[BonzoHansen]

Never assume off the shelf drums and rotors are true. Also are the rear brakes adjusted properly?

[qwikz28]

Never assume off the shelf drums and rotors are true. Also are the rear brakes adjusted properly?

The shop that replaced the wheel cylinder and bled the brakes, adjusted the rear brakes. I suppose I'll have whomever does the flush check the brakes. I figured I bought good quality brakes and they should be good, but I seem to be having some crummy luck with buying parts lately.

[NJ Torque]

Where the drums machined at all or just cleaned and adjusted?

[qwikz28]

Where the drums machined at all or just cleaned and adjusted?

Replaced. They were brand new units from Centric

[sweetbmxrider]

still have the old ones?

[qwikz28]

still have the old ones?

yeah but they were shuddering even worse than these. They are pretty damn worn out.

I've been doing some googling and I think its the rotors. It can't be much else. I'm gonna have a shop look at it and do the flush. I may call centric and send them back if they are warped.

[BigAls87Z28]

Usually an untrue rotor will cause steering vibration, so you would feel it in the steering wheel. Vibration in the car, and not felt through the steering, could be the rear?
But your car has, I believe, electric steering so that would negate everything I just said....

[qwikz28]

Usually an untrue rotor will cause steering vibration, so you would feel it in the steering wheel. Vibration in the car, and not felt through the steering, could be the rear?
But your car has, I believe, electric steering so that would negate everything I just said....

electric steering indeed. I see what you are saying though. Maybe it is the rear drums. Hmmm...

[NJ Torque]

Or possibly adjusted too tight/parking brake shoes too tight?

[qwikz28]

It's possible, but the e-brake doesn't feel all too tight, so I'm guessing not.

I think I've limited it to being an abs problem or warped rear drums. There is a good meineke nearby owned by a 1st gen owner. Gonna leave it with him for a few days and let him diagnose. Driving with subpar brakes is likely to be more expensive if I rear end a car