Moog LCA Bushings

[Mark42]

In an attempt to fix a wheel hop problem my bird has, Moog solid LCA bushings were installed yesterday.

The change in bushings did more than fix wheel hop. This morning I did my usual 40 mile commute to the office. Nice mix of back country roads and interstate highway. I was not expecting anything different in the ride from changing the bushings, but that was not the case.

First, the rear feels more planted, especially on rough surfaces. A turn where I could always the a little sideways hop out of the axle did not make any hop at all. The rear stayed planted. And on the highway, long stretches of concrete that have lots of black top patches, the car used to wander a little bit, now it does not. Same with hitting those expansion joints, the car stays on track.

I'm attributing the better ride to the new bushings keeping the axle in proper plane, and not letting it shimmy or move around. Guess that is why the Trans Am comes with solid bushings.

Anyway, if you have wheel hop and are looking toward Moog bushings for the fix, you will also get an overall ride improvement too boot.

A worthy handling upgrade even if your car does not have wheel hop issues.

[WildBillyT]

Mark:

Did you box them as well?

[Mark42]

Mark:

Did you box them as well?

No, did not have them boxed. But if I decide to, they can be welded while on the car. Another alternative is to run two bolts with spacer through the arms to reduce spreading (and that is what I read is the real issue). Info I've seen suggests that twisting is part of the design, but reducing spreading is good. Boxing the entire arm length has pro's and con's too.

So right now, they seem fine for my driving.

[BonzoHansen]

Sounds good. Part #s & cost?

[jts98z28]

if you still want my stock lca's i decided to get adjustable

[deadtrend1]

No, did not have them boxed. But if I decide to, they can be welded while on the car. Another alternative is to run two bolts with spacer through the arms to reduce spreading (and that is what I read is the real issue). Info I've seen suggests that twisting is part of the design, but reducing spreading is good. Boxing the entire arm length has pro's and con's too.

So right now, they seem fine for my driving.

Two bolts and each comes off. Much easier then trying to do overhead welding.

[WildBillyT]

Two bolts and each comes off. Much easier then trying to do overhead welding.

I agree. Better than having to deal with pool drip.

[Slow-V6]

So how much were these Bushings??

[//<86TA>\\]

im a little confused here, you used Solid bushings? like steel/bronze bearings? with no side to side deflection or articulation at all? thats probably the worst thing you could ever do on a 3rd or 4th gen. the arms need to deflect a little side to side or other things will start to break.

or do you mean the non-1le rubber bushings that dont have the extra room in the sleaves. the new bushings will feel better than the worn out stock ones, but in the long run dont prove much

[JSPERFORMANCE]

What is going to happen to those bushings when you start welding?? Heat and rubber dont play nice together...
UMI tubular control arms are $100, they include Polyurethane bushings, are tubular (stronger), bolt right in, and are powdercoated to boot so they look much nicer than a stock control arm that has been violated by a guy with a sledge hammer, an amateur welder, and a can of Krylon.. Can you please explain why they not worth it?

[JerzLT1]

What is going to happen to those bushings when you start welding?? Heat and rubber dont play nice together...
UMI tubular control arms are $100, they include Polyurethane bushings, are tubular (stronger), bolt right in, and are powdercoated to boot so they look much nicer than a stock control arm that has been violated by a guy with a sledge hammer, an amateur welder, and a can of Krylon.. Can you please explain why they not worth it?

beat me to it

[Slow-V6]

And I am still wonderring how much were the bushings that you put on your car? If they were less then 40.00 then I could see giving them a try but when a set of control arms could be bought for 100.00 new and 50.00 used on LS1 tech then I dont see the benifit of buying the bushings!!

[Mark42]

im a little confused here, you used Solid bushings? like steel/bronze bearings? with no side to side deflection or articulation at all? thats probably the worst thing you could ever do on a 3rd or 4th gen. the arms need to deflect a little side to side or other things will start to break.

or do you mean the non-1le rubber bushings that dont have the extra room in the sleaves. the new bushings will feel better than the worn out stock ones, but in the long run dont prove much

The moog standard replacement bushings (about $27 a pair at Advance Auto) are solid high durometer (sp?) rubber busing. Standard relacement for the 1LE. They do not make the "soft" bushing to replace what is in most firebirds/camaros.

The bushings in my car had 40K miles, and were far from worn out. No dry rot or anything. They are just too compliant with the air gap. Being so soft, they let the axle move around a lot.

The moog bushings are what is recomended for a street-car. Probably the best choice for most members that want to upgrade from the soft bushing, and don't regularly drag race their cars.

I have read over and over again where the stock lower control arms are strong enough to handle the stock v8's in f-bodies. The after market LCA's are fine if you have a modded engine, but right now, my car shows no need of a modified LCA.

See MOOG part number K6178.

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Reccomended by who? People that feel their time is worthless and are looking spend $54 and get a part that is not signifigantly better than the one they took off in niether looks or performance?

UMI control arms $100 + 6% sales tax = $106
R&R control arms 1 hour (generous) @ $10 / hour (diy)= $10
Total = $116
And they're strong and pretty

Bushings - $54
Remove control arms with car on jack stands - at least 1/2hour
R&R bushings - at least 45 minutes if you have the right tools
Reinstall control arms - 1/2 hour
So even if you pay yourself $10/hour (which no mechanic would work for) you are still at $71.50 and this does not include painting anything or the electricity to run the tools/lights/etc..
The worst part with this is that in the end you still have the same garbage part you started with!!

Price difference = $44.50
Still "A worthy handling upgrade"???

[JSPERFORMANCE]

On a related note. we usually do UMI tubular control arms with a panhard bar for $200 INSTALLED!!!

[Slow-V6]

The moog standard replacement bushings (about $27 a pair at Advance Auto) are solid high durometer (sp?) rubber busing. Standard relacement for the 1LE. They do not make the "soft" bushing to replace what is in most firebirds/camaros.

The bushings in my car had 40K miles, and were far from worn out. No dry rot or anything. They are just too compliant with the air gap. Being so soft, they let the axle move around a lot.

The moog bushings are what is recomended for a street-car. Probably the best choice for most members that want to upgrade from the soft bushing, and don't regularly drag race their cars.

I have read over and over again where the stock lower control arms are strong enough to handle the stock v8's in f-bodies. The after market LCA's are fine if you have a modded engine, but right now, my car shows no need of a modified LCA.

See MOOG part number K6178.


You beat the piss out of your car and you see no need to upgrade the control arms? I dont get it. You spend the 54.00 now to upgrade the bushings to be a little better then stock when you could have bought a set of LCA's for 46.00 brand new or find them on LS1 tech for 50-100 used and make your rear suspension alot better! Why half ass something?

Just because you dont have a LS1 doesnt mean your car doesnt make a good amount of tq! My 98 V6 on the stock motor with headers, flowmaster, and lid made 215rwtq! That means its making around 250ish tq at the motor!! Not to shabby!


What are you planning on doing to your car? Its not that hard to make your car perform better! More air, more fuel and a tune and you have more power! Better suspension mods and your car will handle the power better! Thats it! Hell most of the mods you do to a stock motor will net you better gas miles then the car came with. Oil coolers are a good idea when you start to make alot more power but like you said your car isnt a V8 so there is no need for aftermarket LCA's! If this is the case then why need a tranny cooler and duel oil filter system?

[Mark42]

You beat the piss out of your car and you see no need to upgrade the control arms? I dont get it. You spend the 54.00 now to upgrade the bushings to be a little better then stock when you could have bought a set of LCA's for 46.00 brand new or find them on LS1 tech for 50-100 used and make your rear suspension alot better! Why half ass something?

Just because you dont have a LS1 doesnt mean your car doesnt make a good amount of tq! My 98 V6 on the stock motor with headers, flowmaster, and lid made 215rwtq! That means its making around 250ish tq at the motor!! Not to shabby!


What are you planning on doing to your car? Its not that hard to make your car perform better! More air, more fuel and a tune and you have more power! Better suspension mods and your car will handle the power better! Thats it! Hell most of the mods you do to a stock motor will net you better gas miles then the car came with. Oil coolers are a good idea when you start to make alot more power but like you said your car isnt a V8 so there is no need for aftermarket LCA's! If this is the case then why need a tranny cooler and duel oil filter system?

1) You are 100% wrong - I don't "beat the piss out of " my car. The reason you "don't get it" is because you make incorrect assumptions.

2) The car performs fine. I have no interest in boosting the hp any more than the 15-20 hp its been boosted by the existing mods. I don't want NOS, turbo, or cam.

3) The moog bushings fixed the problem, and cost less than a set of control arms with rubber bushings, and don't cause suspension bind.

4) I don't want poly bushings.

[Mark42]

.....
The worst part with this is that in the end you still have the same garbage part you started with!!

Price difference = $44.50
Still "A worthy handling upgrade"???

Yep. Because after its done, the car handles great! Tell me this: If the LCA is the "same garbage", why does the "garbage" make the car handle so well?

Do your own research, there tons of info out on the net about f-body suspension and handling. Most experts say to leave the LCA's alone unless you are pushing more than 300ph or so. Up to that point, the flexible LCA is what is preferred to make the suspension work right and avoid bind.

[Frosty]

Man oh man, I really want to cut this ridiculous thread up again but I don't want another infraction point.

I'll just say this, Mark, you're not as smart as you think and half of the people on the internet have no idea what they're talking about. Telling a guy/shop that has built countless 9-10 second cars to "do research" is comical and downright insulting.

Reading what someone says on the internet doesn't make it right or practical. It's awesome that the car "feels" better. All Josh and others were trying to do is tell you that there were better options out there for a little more. Boxing stock LCA's is a waste of time, slapping a set of tubular arms on there with good bushing is simple, easy and PROVEN for a CHEAP price.

Then again what do we know? We should bow down to your mad intrawebz skillz

EDIT: Mods, if this is, again, in violation please delete with my apologies. I already got beat up over previous posts, lol.

[NastyEllEssWon]

lol you told josh to do research :rofl:

[Slow-V6]

1) You are 100% wrong - I don't "beat the piss out of " my car. The reason you "don't get it" is because you make incorrect assumptions.

2) The car performs fine. I have no interest in boosting the hp any more than the 15-20 hp its been boosted by the existing mods. I don't want NOS, turbo, or cam.

.

Every post I read about your car is how bad it is when you beat on it with wheel hop, or how much rubber you put down on the pavement, or how you take 25mph off ramps at 60+ mph!! If thats not beating on your car then I guess you and I have different opinions!!

If you dont beat on your car then Why does it matter if it wheel hops or doesnt handle a corner @ 70mph?? Why do you waste your money on building a 10 bolt rear that can handle 500 hp ( Ha Ha) if you have no intention of making more then 225hp? You could have bought a used LSD rear end for 150.00 and been done with it!

[NJ Torque]

What color are said bushings?

[Slow-V6]

Yep. Because after its done, the car handles great! Tell me this: If the LCA is the "same garbage", why does the "garbage" make the car handle so well?

Do your own research, there tons of info out on the net about f-body suspension and handling. Most experts say to leave the LCA's alone unless you are pushing more than 300ph or so. Up to that point, the flexible LCA is what is preferred to make the suspension work right and avoid bind.

Handle so well? Its a damn 4th gen f-body with stock suspension!! The base model firebird is not ment to handle well!!


Who are these experts you speak of? Did they tell you to buy a posi that handles 500 hp when your car doesnt even come close to that but to not get control arms because your car doesnt make enough power to need them?

[BigAls87Z28]

I will say I have read that poly bushings are not fantastic for rotational items, and that picking a stiffer rubber would be better for daily drivers, while more solid metal units like Del-rin bushings are better for racing. I believe I saw that on Nasty somewhere.
Just .02. The reasoning behind it is that Poly is more of a gel, and with lots of abuse, can get real soft, softer then rubber.

[WildBillyT]

I will say I have read that poly bushings are not fantastic for rotational items, and that picking a stiffer rubber would be better for daily drivers, while more solid metal units like Del-rin bushings are better for racing. I believe I saw that on Nasty somewhere.
Just .02. The reasoning behind it is that Poly is more of a gel, and with lots of abuse, can get real soft, softer then rubber.

Al,

If you know where that was I'd love to see it.

It's always been my understanding that poly is stiffer (hence the better handling) and more longer lasting than rubber, and it was the road noise and binding (when not greased) that were the downsides of it.

As for the LCA issue, I bowed out the channels on my GTP's rear LCAs. And that was with a mostly stock L67 and front wheel drive. And solid rubber bushings.

[BigAls87Z28]

Al,

If you know where that was I'd love to see it.


http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70313

Polyurethane and its variations (like poly graphite) have no business being used in any rotational bushing application. This means leaf springs, a-arms, trailing arms, strut rods ect...

[WildBillyT]

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70313

Thanks. I figured it would be a post by Brett.

[BonzoHansen]

To the heart of the matter, it is echoed in books like Herb Adams' Chassis Engineering. It's all about the bind, and to a much lesser degree the way it wears. WBT I bet your local library has a copy, it's a terrific book. That said, a poly with a steel insert that is greasable at the pivot point is different from a pure poly bushing.

IMO poly is a step between OE rubber and solid racecar type stuff. With the advent of solid stuff with delrin inserts for a street car you get much closer to the best of both worlds, without the inherent noise and wear issue of actual bearings that are not weathertight. For a pure street car a higher durometer solid rubber bushing is likely an excellent, perhaps cheaper, upgrade.

[WildBillyT]

To the heart of the matter, it is echoed in books like Herb Adams' Chassis Engineering. It's all about the bind, and to a much lesser degree the way it wears. WBT I bet your local library has a copy, it's a terrific book. That said, a poly with a steel insert that is greasable at the pivot point is different from a pure poly bushing.

IMO poly is a step between OE rubber and solid racecar type stuff. With the advent of solid stuff with delrin inserts for a street car you get much closer to the best of both worlds, without the inherent noise and wear issue of actual bearings that are not weathertight. For a pure street car a higher durometer solid rubber bushing is likely an excellent, perhaps cheaper, upgrade.

I own and have read that book. Very good but possibly dated in terms of technologies. The wearing/gel thing is what raised an eyebrow.

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah, I remember reading that when I was putting together the 72's suspension.

[PolarBear]

Over time and under constant pressure a poly bushing CAN cold flow, but it isnt something that you are going to notice in a few years.
I pulled the poly leaf pads out of the 73 a few weeks ago and they had cold flowed enough that they wouldnt go back in nice when I pulled the slapper bars off, I had to put the new ones in that I got with the "U" bolts for the rear.
Josh is completely correct though, for the money a stock rubber bushing isnt worth the time or effort when you can get new, stronger, longer lasting arms inexpensively. If someone is only daily driving a vehicle and doesnt care about performance at all that driver is NEVER going to notice the minimal amount of bind created by the stiffer poly bushing.

Hell I bought all the stuff and put my own LCA's together for around $125. They are on car adjustable and are infinately rebuildable, no brainer

[LTb1ow]

Is it worth it to replace the front lower/upper A arm bushings with Moog stuff if they are coming off anyway?

[JSPERFORMANCE]

In my opinion.. No. But I like my cars to look as nice on the bottom as they do on the top.. Plus if its off already why not put something better back on?

[LTb1ow]

In my opinion.. No. But I like my cars to look as nice on the bottom as they do on the top.. Plus if its off already why not put something better back on?

Just current budget issues, I'll do some more research.