So Buick gave the regal the green light....

[Blacdout96]

I'm glad to see them bring out that car, BUT I have one problem, the engine options. they want to put a 2.0T making 255hp in the AWD setup, and I feel it's a bad move. I understand people will be buying it for the comfort, and the safety of the AWD system, but for someone like me looking into one that has a little more gitty up, especially with the SHO-wboat weighing in some serious numbers, both weight and power, I think they are droppign the ball wiht the high end model being 255hp. It would be awesome if they came out with a GNX edition with a 3.6 turbo/ TT vehicle to take on the Ford SHO.

What do you guys think. BTW, the car looks sexy for a sedan IMO, keep the concept front end.

[greenformula92]

i think there should be a GNX of some sort. and it should have at least 325 horse might help bring buick back to what it was. take the new camaro v6 and turbo it....that would be a at least 350 horse and would keep the cost down since the motor is already in production

[NastyEllEssWon]

man buick news moves slow????

[BonzoHansen]

The usual MO is introduce a car, then later introduce a hotter version. So wait.

[r0nin89]

i think there should be a GNX of some sort. and it should have at least 325 horse might help bring buick back to what it was. take the new camaro v6 and turbo it....that would be a at least 350 horse and would keep the cost down since the motor is already in production

Lol hopping a 300hp motor to 350 with a TT setup isnt much return :D

[WildBillyT]

The usual MO is introduce a car, then later introduce a hotter version. So wait.

Yup. Don't build an entire model of car with no proven interest.

[Knipps]

:nod: What Bonzo & WBT said.

[Blacdout96]

Maybe BigAl has some insight, and rubbed a few elbows with some higher ups to give us a sneak peak.

[iroc86NJ]

GS is in the works with a 255 HP turbo 4 banger.

IMO I don't suspect they will make a GNX version to compete with the SHO. From what I've read the regal is meant to compete with the TSX, which has similar dimensions and Drivetrain options.

I suspect Buick will make a (junior) executive rocket ship version of the LaCrosse, to go head to head with the SHO...and steal some luxury buyers from Lexus in the process. my.02

[NJ Torque]

I would be very upset to see the GN/GNX name used.

[BigAls87Z28]

Jim Federico told us that he wants more out the 2.0T
There will not be a V6 or V8 for this car.
The Regal GS will probably end somewhere in the 270hp/300ftlbs mark and still manage to pull down good gas milage for an AWD car.
The Regal is over a foot and nearly 700lbs lighter then the SHO.
Regal GS's internal bench mark is the Commodore SS-V or Pontiac G8 GT
Target car is the Audi S4.
Regal is a TSX/Euro Honda Accord fighter, as it is in Europe.

Jay, its been a no-brainer since Detroit but the offical word was give out just the other day.
GS goes Job one April 1st, 2011 if I remember right.

The GS we saw on the show circuit is in fact an Insigna OPC/VXR with the 325hp Turbo 2.8. But that engine is a gas hog.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Jim Federico told us that he wants more out the 2.0T
There will not be a V6 or V8 for this car.
The Regal GS will probably end somewhere in the 270hp/300ftlbs mark and still manage to pull down good gas milage for an AWD car.
The Regal is over a foot and nearly 700lbs lighter then the SHO.
Regal GS's internal bench mark is the Commodore SS-V or Pontiac G8 GT
Target car is the Audi S4.
Regal is a TSX/Euro Honda Accord fighter, as it is in Europe.

Jay, its been a no-brainer since Detroit but the offical word was give out just the other day.
GS goes Job one April 1st, 2011 if I remember right.

The GS we saw on the show circuit is in fact an Insigna OPC/VXR with the 325hp Turbo 2.8. But that engine is a gas hog.




so they fixed the water cooler!!!! hoooray :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

Still a ****...

Actually got to talk to him at the North American International Auto Show.

[edpontiac91]

Hey Al, If the benchmark is the G8 GT, it has a LOOOONG way to go to beat it in the performance area. I think you'll need at least a 6 cylinder in the GS model to have some bragging rites. GM is implying that a 2.0T would be good for low 13's?:shock: LOL

[NastyEllEssWon]

Hey Al, If the benchmark is the G8 GT, it has a LOOOONG way to go to beat it in the performance area. I think you'll need at least a 6 cylinder in the GS model to have some bragging rites. GM is implying that a 2.0T would be good for low 13's?:shock: LOL



it is in the cobalt :wink:

[Frosty]

Hey Al, If the benchmark is the G8 GT, it has a LOOOONG way to go to beat it in the performance area. I think you'll need at least a 6 cylinder in the GS model to have some bragging rites. GM is implying that a 2.0T would be good for low 13's?:shock: LOL

I think he means in terms of quality, fit and finish.

[edpontiac91]

The Cobolt SS is also a LOT lighter, and a 6-speed manual trans. I just feel that if your going to purchase a performance version of the Regal (GS) then your not looking for 35 mpg. The old Regal GS and the Grand Prix GTP were both capable of getting 29-30 mpg highway, so having a 6 cylinder will not eat you out of house and home unless the owner enjoys being aggressive with the gas pedal. Hell, the Taurus SHO has twin turbos and FORD plasters that fact all over automotive magazines.

[BigAls87Z28]

Fit, finish, handling and performance. Regal GS is some 400-500lbs lighter then G8 GT.
V6 doesnt always mean performance. Hyundai is taking a serious step into the direction that everyone else will be very soon, 4cyl only line for its Sonata and removing the traditional V6 engine.
The new turbo 4cyl in the new Sonata will pack 274hp and get something like 34mpg highway, only 2mpg off the standard 200hp 2.4 4cyl.

People will eventually learn that more cylinders doesnt mean better performance. The Insigna aka Regal, became Europe's car of the year based on the 2.0 turbo engine. Not its 2.8 turbo, not its diesel...

[LTb1ow]

Fit, finish, handling and performance. Regal GS is some 400-500lbs lighter then G8 GT.
V6 doesnt always mean performance. Hyundai is taking a serious step into the direction that everyone else will be very soon, 4cyl only line for its Sonata and removing the traditional V6 engine.
The new turbo 4cyl in the new Sonata will pack 274hp and get something like 34mpg highway, only 2mpg off the standard 200hp 2.4 4cyl.

People will eventually learn that more cylinders doesnt mean better performance. The Insigna aka Regal, became Europe's car of the year based on the 2.0 turbo engine. Not its 2.8 turbo, not its diesel...

Geez, I see why you are selling off all your fbods. :shock:

[BigAls87Z28]

The Cobolt SS is also a LOT lighter, and a 6-speed manual trans. I just feel that if your going to purchase a performance version of the Regal (GS) then your not looking for 35 mpg. The old Regal GS and the Grand Prix GTP were both capable of getting 29-30 mpg highway, so having a 6 cylinder will not eat you out of house and home unless the owner enjoys being aggressive with the gas pedal. Hell, the Taurus SHO has twin turbos and FORD plasters that fact all over automotive magazines.

and the Regal could match the SHO with 2/3's the cylinders and 1/2 the turbos, but offer much better handling, and a TRUE performance package. But again, the Regal and the Taurus are not nearly the same vehicle.
If there is a twin turbo, Haladex AWD Buick LaCrosse...that would be more in line with the Taurus.
The new upcoming Impala with the same system would also be more inline with the Taurus.

If the Fusion/Millan/MKZ decided to make a performance sedan with a turbo 4cyl engine ....that would be similar to the Regal GS.
The old Regal GS and GP GTP made 240hp and its EPA is equal to that of 280hp, 4000lbs Buick lacrosse AWD.
What it can get, and what it will get rated from the EPA are two very different things. EPA numbers are the numbers everyone will benchmark against, not what some guy from somewhere that got one time hypermilling on the highway.

[WildBillyT]

Fit, finish, handling and performance. Regal GS is some 400-500lbs lighter then G8 GT.
V6 doesnt always mean performance. Hyundai is taking a serious step into the direction that everyone else will be very soon, 4cyl only line for its Sonata and removing the traditional V6 engine.
The new turbo 4cyl in the new Sonata will pack 274hp and get something like 34mpg highway, only 2mpg off the standard 200hp 2.4 4cyl.

People will eventually learn that more cylinders doesnt mean better performance. The Insigna aka Regal, became Europe's car of the year based on the 2.0 turbo engine. Not its 2.8 turbo, not its diesel...

How so?

[NastyEllEssWon]

this must be the reason he came home with that impalibu and not a camaro :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

Geez, I see why you are selling off all your fbods. :shock:

I sold one to get money to put in a better more powerful V8 into another....
you got me Matt...


The idea that 4cyl are for ****** econoboxes that are heaps are over. The idea that the V6 is the the top of the midsized world is over. Hyundai and to a lesser part Buick will start to take that wall down.
BMW will replace its base N/A 6cyls with turbo 4's, Its V8's with turbo 6's, and Twin turbo V8s replacing its V10's and V12's, as will Benz.
AMG is working on more effiecent powertrains to replace its 6.2 liter V8 already.
Audi is already jumping in by replacing the old V8 out of the S4 and putting in a supercharged V6.
Dont be surprised if the turbo 4 makes it into the base 6th Gen Camaro once it gets downsized in 2014.

[BigAls87Z28]

this must be the reason he came home with that impalibu and not a camaro :lol:

Greedy dealers jacking up pricing is the major reason I didnt come home with at least a V6 Camaro.

[LTb1ow]

Fit, finish, handling and performance. Regal GS is some 400-500lbs lighter then G8 GT.
V6 doesnt always mean performance. Hyundai is taking a serious step into the direction that everyone else will be very soon, 4cyl only line for its Sonata and removing the traditional V6 engine.
The new turbo 4cyl in the new Sonata will pack 274hp and get something like 34mpg highway, only 2mpg off the standard 200hp 2.4 4cyl.

People will eventually learn that more cylinders doesnt mean better performance. The Insigna aka Regal, became Europe's car of the year based on the 2.0 turbo engine. Not its 2.8 turbo, not its diesel...

I sold one to get money to put in a better more powerful V8 into another....
you got me Matt...


You are doing it wrong Pal. :|

[BigAls87Z28]

To be honest, If I had the means to put in a twin turbo 3.6 SIDI engine out of Jay Leno's 5th gen, I would.

Aftermarket swaps and performance add ons are different then the rules that the major automakers have to play by when they have to make vehicles that meet the various goverment mandates for economy and effiency.

[Tsar]

How so?
In before hp per liter argument that ricers used to use to illustrate "better" performance.

[BigAls87Z28]

Its really not a hp/liter, its hp per car.
Hyundai Sonata is a perfect example. The new turbo 2.0 is making 274hp, beating everyone of the other automakers V6's. And its MPG rating is outstanding considering most V6 cars are putting down mid to high 20's highway, this car is putting down low 30's!!
The horsepower war is on all the way around, not just V8's anymore. GM should show its Ecoboost beating turbo 3.0 in a year or so. I believe it will debut in either the upcoming Cadillac XTS or ATS.

[WildBillyT]

Its really not a hp/liter, its hp per car.
Hyundai Sonata is a perfect example. The new turbo 2.0 is making 274hp, beating everyone of the other automakers V6's. And its MPG rating is outstanding considering most V6 cars are putting down mid to high 20's highway, this car is putting down low 30's!!
The horsepower war is on all the way around, not just V8's anymore. GM should show its Ecoboost beating turbo 3.0 in a year or so. I believe it will debut in either the upcoming Cadillac XTS or ATS.

Right, but even a 10 year old LS1 car with a T56 can hit high 20s, low 30s and that's with 90's tech and 305 hp. Given that, I'm still not impressed. Hell, my GTP hit 30+ before I dicked with it and that's a 97.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Right, but even a 10 year old LS1 car with a T56 can hit high 20s, low 30s and that's with 90's tech and 305 hp. Given that, I'm still not impressed. Hell, my GTP hit 30+ before I dicked with it and that's a 97.





not if your mark :lol:

[LTb1ow]

not if your mark :lol:

He has 3.73s man. And a cooler, for the cooler.

[BigAls87Z28]

Right, but even a 10 year old LS1 car with a T56 can hit high 20s, low 30s and that's with 90's tech and 305 hp. Given that, I'm still not impressed.

comparing apples to oranges.
You must compare EPA numbers to EPA numbers. Not everyone pulls down 30's with LS1's, highway or not. Maybe with 2.73's and 245/50-16 tires on it infated to 35psi, doing 55mph, sure.
I can say that someone can hypermile a Sonata 2.0T into 40mpg. And thats not with 2.73 drive ratio.

Again, you are comparing how some people drive vs EPA numbers.
Compare EPA to EPA.

[LTb1ow]

http://www.paduiblog.com/uploads/image/harrisburg%20DUI%20Lawyer%20matrix%20effect%20BAC. jpg

I see. So a ten year old car is bad. Crappy 4cyl NEW car is good. Gotcha.

[WildBillyT]

comparing apples to oranges.
You must compare EPA numbers to EPA numbers. Not everyone pulls down 30's with LS1's, highway or not. Maybe with 2.73's and 245/50-16 tires on it infated to 35psi, doing 55mph, sure.
I can say that someone can hypermile a Sonata 2.0T into 40mpg. And thats not with 2.73 drive ratio.

Again, you are comparing how some people drive vs EPA numbers.
Compare EPA to EPA.

That was with a T56 and 3.42s, stock tires. When I drove the 2000Z it got 33 on the highway with 2.73s and 235/55's. Nothing special. No hypermiling. Rt 95 from PHL to DC. And both had more power and torque than said 4cyl.

I get what you are saying- but I have never really though too highly of the EPA numbers. I've seen cars get much better than rated, and also significantly worse, with a "normal" driving style.

[edpontiac91]

I guess all of us that LOVE the sound of V/8 rumble (with an aftermarket exhaust) will have to go out to pasture and shoot ourselves. I would also guess that all those people will have to learn that "FOUR IS MORE", and get to love the way a FOUR sounds (ricer garbage can muffler). I loved the performance of my 1989 TTA, but could never get it to sound just right (even with a Flowmaster muffler). Don't get me wrong, I'am all for the new tech age, but pop open the hood and look at a HUGE piece of plastic housing that covers a "Mini Four" will never attract a crowd to see what makes it go. Just my :2cents:

[LTb1ow]

http://www.skymall.com/images/products/41/18/06/102252990x.jpg

Its a high tech shovel Al.

[BigAls87Z28]

Let me state that the 4th gen got very good MPG for its size and power. It has very good aero and a very efficent engine. When you pair it with the double overdrive, it was a match made in heaven.
Its a reason I want one in my 87. Its a fantastic engine, and I look forward to the Gen V's.
But the point still stands that the age of the V6 being dominate, especially in this segment, is over.

I never said that teh turbo 4 will replace any and all engines Ed. I said that the turbo 4 will become a bigger part of cars due to its power and economy. The 35mpg CAFE regs is forcing everyone to rethink cars, and we are getting some really cool results.
We will still have V8 cars around, but they will be rare in the market. We as part of the car buying culture are a small percentage.
If you take two cars, both the same only one has a 400hp V8 getting 16/25mpg, and the other has 400hp Twin Turbo V6 getting 18/29mpg, on top of reduced emissions, the TT V6 will win.

[WildBillyT]

Let me state that the 4th gen got very good MPG for its size and power. It has very good aero and a very efficent engine. When you pair it with the double overdrive, it was a match made in heaven.
Its a reason I want one in my 87. Its a fantastic engine, and I look forward to the Gen V's.
But the point still stands that the age of the V6 being dominate, especially in this segment, is over.

No argument there. I just don't buy into the whole ultra efficiency they are peddling now. I am in awe of the DI V6 in my dad's Caddy. REAL nice. But it seems to me that even though power numbers for smaller engines are higher, the fuel economy is right where it would be in a engine with more cyls. So what's the point, really? Weight savings? Production costs? Neither of which probably matter much to joe average car buyer.

[BigAls87Z28]

No argument there. I just don't buy into the whole ultra efficiency they are peddling now. I am in awe of the DI V6 in my dad's Caddy. REAL nice. But it seems to me that even though power numbers for smaller engines are higher, the fuel economy is right where it would be in a engine with more cyls. So what's the point, really? Weight savings? Production costs? Neither of which probably matter much to joe average car buyer.

Another case in point

2002 Camaro Z28
3500-3600lbs or so
305hp V8 with 6spd manual trans, 3.42 rear gears
EPA numbers converted to the new standard is something like 16/24

2010 Mustang GT
3500-3600lbs
315hp V8 with 5spd manual with 3.31 gears
EPA numbers was somethng like 17/25

2010 Camaro LT
3700-3800lbs
312hp V6 with 6spd auto or manual with 3.45 rear geras
EPA numbers 18/29

GM and everyone else have to meet 35mpg across the board.
The 3.6SIDI probably cost as much to make as the LS3, especially when you bring in the cost of the super high output fuel pump and fuel system that has to handle the now thousands of PSI that is being pumped, but the engines are producing equal power to V8 couterparts of several years ago. But yes the fuel economy and the lower emissions via the direct injection help out the whole cause.

Everyone will start rolling out new and better systems on how to make more power out of much smaller packages. 300hp turbo 4cyl are only a step away.

[WildBillyT]

Another case in point

2002 Camaro Z28
3500-3600lbs or so
305hp V8 with 6spd manual trans, 3.42 rear gears
EPA numbers converted to the new standard is something like 16/24

2010 Mustang GT
3500-3600lbs
315hp V8 with 5spd manual with 3.31 gears
EPA numbers was somethng like 17/25

2010 Camaro LT
3700-3800lbs
312hp V6 with 6spd auto or manual with 3.45 rear geras
EPA numbers 18/29

GM and everyone else have to meet 35mpg across the board.
The 3.6SIDI probably cost as much to make as the LS3, especially when you bring in the cost of the super high output fuel pump and fuel system that has to handle the now thousands of PSI that is being pumped, but the engines are producing equal power to V8 couterparts of several years ago. But yes the fuel economy and the lower emissions via the direct injection help out the whole cause.

Everyone will start rolling out new and better systems on how to make more power out of much smaller packages. 300hp turbo 4cyl are only a step away.

Al:

EPA numbers are not of my concern in this case. Realized MPG is what I care about. Do you have info on that? Would be cool to see. Same with torque numbers.

[LTb1ow]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/attachments/turbo-lounge/79680d1249663293-un-motivational-posters-language-warning-supra2.jpg

That is how you sound Al.

[NastyEllEssWon]

bring back the iron duke! :nod:

[BigAls87Z28]

Again, Im not bringing up hp per liter or even saying that its a good thing.
What Im telling you is what is happening across the board. Not with just GM, not with Ford, not with Honda or Toyota.
EVERYONE is finding a way to make the cars as efficent as possible. Porsche showed a flywheel based hybrid system for its GT2 production car where you dont need battery power to store the energy. I believe is very similar to the stuff used in F1. It can give you a quick squirt of energy.
The 918 Porsche concept was a showcase to show off future technology for Porsche vehicles.

[Blacdout96]

Porsche showed a flywheel based hybrid system for its GT2 production car where you dont need battery power to store the energy. I believe is very similar to the stuff used in F1. It can give you a quick squirt of energy.
The 918 Porsche concept was a showcase to show off future technology for Porsche vehicles.

Buses have been using that technology for years. If you look up the Chrysler Patriot WSC race car, it was to use that technology, but due to the fact that for it's power it had a potential of breaking, which it did during a test, killing an employee. they cancelled the project before it couldget on a track under its own power. the photos they shot of it were from the car being towed cause the drivers and Chrysler were too scared of the flywheel.

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah, someone was talking about that, but it was a supplier that was developing the system, not Chrysler.
I think its a pretty cool system and if done right can give a hybrid advantage without having an expensive battery pack.

The 918 concept is really friggin cool.

[Blacdout96]

The 918 concept is really friggin cool.

Yes, the 918 uis the greatest road car they rolled out of their shop since the 911 GT1. I like the Carrera GT, but as much as was put into it, it's $400,000 price tag was not worth it. They should of kept the pneumatic lifters in it so it could rev higher. Screw maintenance costs, when your blowing that kind of money on a car, might as well go all out.

I want a 918 badly, hope there's one at Monteray this year.