Car troubles, need help

[BullittSVT]

Hello all, my 98 3.8 has been giving me some problems in the past week. Two weeks ago I got a PO410 code from a check engine light that popped up out of no where, this coincides with rattling noises I hear under my car - mid car. The C-E-L turns off a few days later.. Last Saturday while driving, my car shutters and my throttle drops and I lose speed, then complete control of the car - it dies and I lose steering. Car won't start, so I pop the hood and place a battery cable back that was a little loose and it starts right up and drives me home.

Fast forward to that night, car won't start after driving to a party. Gets towed and I get a parking ticket...

I get the car back, same problem as before.. real shutter and the car dies on me while driving it back from dinner. Not a battery cable and it took awhile to get going, have to let it sit for a bit. Oil pressure normal, temperature normal..

- My temperature did shoot up after it died when idling - near 210

Take it to a mechanic and he says its the fuel filter (I'm thinking to myself, bull s***) because he and my step dad when driving the car never had it die on them. Ok, the fuel filter is replaced and I drive it home. Starts an hour later and dies 10 feet away.

Suggestions on what may be causing my troubles?

EDIT 5/22 - CEL back on, PO420 Code

[Green_Phoenix_LT1]

P0410 Is a seconday air injection system malfunction. AIR pump is either bad or the fuse is blown, replace fuse to start with should solve your CEL issue.

Is that the only code that comes up when you scan it?

[BullittSVT]

Yeah, that was the only code. The CEL isn't on anymore though, would an air pump kill a car like that?

[Green_Phoenix_LT1]

I wouldnt think so but Im no mechanic lol. And dont have much experience on the 3.8L yet. I would also maybe check the ICM/Coils/Plugs/Wires. Could be an ignition issue.

[BullittSVT]

I don't think it's an "air pump", ignition maybe - it was a little more difficult to start if I didn't turn the key harder and faster

But then again, don't think that would kill my car WHILE driving

[JL8Jeff]

The air pump might share a circuit with something else and therefore shut down something else when it acts up. Did you have it scanned for any other hidden codes? Do you hear the air pump turn on when you first start the car? If not, it might be siezed up and putting a load on the system. If you don't hear it, try disconnecting the wiring to it. It might trigger a code but the car should run like normal. On my old 93, one of the AIR check valves went bad and let hot exhaust go back into the AIR lines and in winter that allowed condensation to build up. It eventually filled the AIR pump with water and froze solid one morning and took out the fuse. Did you also check the battery to make sure the terminals weren't about to rot out? The AC Delco batteries are known for the terminals rotting from the inside out and will eventually break off.

[BullittSVT]

Battery terminals are fine, I didn't have it scanned for any other codes. I'll take a look at the AIR pump

[MyFirstZ]

need to clarify a few thing. When it dies is it when you are pulling away or coming to a stop. when it starts is it trying to crank just not firing.

just from what I am reading my first try would be the fuel pressure regulator.

[BullittSVT]

It's died twice while cruising at 50~
and it's died once while pulling from a dead stop after starting it up

It trys to crank but it doesn't fire, I get the heavy smell of gasoline after going at it for a little bit

One of my coil pack wires #3 is a little damaged,a little piece of the rubber is chipped off.. might be nothing though

[MyFirstZ]

I would try a regulator. Cheap and easy

i doubt the spark plug wire is arcing if it is only a little and no copper. but a tune up never will hurt a car

unless you beat your car aftercause it is ia bitch to do on those 6 cyl

let me know what you find, il try and be as helpful as possbile

[MyFirstZ]

Curious what they charged for that job to. . to do the fuel filter

[sweetbmxrider]

When the car dies and just cranks, pull some plug wires and see if they spark. Could be something like a crank position sensor ****ting out but its really tough to say right now.

[MyFirstZ]

I would imagine you would get a timing fault or something similar if it was that. That is why I say start with fuel since they won't through a fault. maybe some leans faults if you get lucky

[BullittSVT]

Curious what they charged for that job to. . to do the fuel filter

fuel filter costed me 100 installed..

[MyFirstZ]

Ok not bad

[BullittSVT]

Check engine light came on, doubting I can make it to autozone...

[BullittSVT]

Whoops.. misread the code, It's a PO420 Code

A "Catalyst efficiency low bank 1"

Oxygen sensors monitor the Catalytic Converters ability to store oxygen
Cause: Catalytic converter defective
Engine Misfire or running condition
Large vacuum leak
Engine oil leakage into exhaust valve guide seals/piston rings


Any new ideas? Not a Po410 code

[Blacdout96]

Tell me you didn't get teh fuel filter job done yet 100 bucks?! that's rediculous, it's right there, shouldn't take more then 10 minutes to change. Also it sounds liek a crank/cam, or ignition control module problem. I got a spare module somewhere if you want to throw that on, see if it'll screw up. Also have cam/crank sensors laying somewhere as well, but taking the crank pulley off to get to it it's a bit of a pain when the engine is still in the car lol.

[MyFirstZ]

As easy as it is to do the fuel filter he brought it to a shop and looks like he paid about half hour labor maybe a little more and the mark up on the fuel filter. If i were to do it i would have charged around 70-100 also.

With the long crank, the dieing while driving and pulling away i would put money on that regulator and an 02 fault that sounds like it is to lean. Besides the fact that it somewhat common.

[WildBillyT]

Whoops.. misread the code, It's a PO420 Code



Any new ideas? Not a Po410 code

That code is for a catalytic converter or rear O2 sensor that is not operating properly.

[MyFirstZ]

Catalyst effieciency does not mean the o2 sensor is not operating correctly. Cat effiecieny means something before the o2 is not correct. The sensor is doing what it should be and picking up a problem with the mixture.

I have only ever seen a 02 sensors fail for the heater circuit or if there was no other problems that can be found in the car. But in his case the car is stalling.

[WildBillyT]

Catalyst effieciency does not mean the o2 sensor is not operating correctly. Cat effiecieny means something before the o2 is not correct. The sensor is doing what it should be and picking up a problem with the mixture.

I have only ever seen a 02 sensors fail for the heater circuit or if there was no other problems that can be found in the car. But in his case the car is stalling.

Just spitballing here. So what would the symptoms of a "clogged" cat be? Due to the rattle, loss of power, and 420 code that's where I was thinking he might want to look.

[MyFirstZ]

actually didnt see the "cat or o2" though it jsut said o2... i apologize.

Thats true. But generally with a clogged cat you will just feel it chocking at higher rpms not so much at idle. Never seen it stall out a car.

Might be two different problems.

[Stevoone]

Had a car die on me from a clogged cat. Took it for a test drive, got around the block and it bogged then stalled. Ended up getting it towed back to the shop because it wouldn't restart.

I haven't seen one cause a no-start when cold tho.

I would check backpressure readings before you replace anything. Also check fuel pressure and spark as mentioned above.

I've had a lot of issues with MAF sensors on 3.8's but they were all FWD (grand prix and bonnevilles). Not sure if it's the same setup.

[jam01]

just a suggestion, but have you checked your air filter. my nephews truck was doing the same thing, it was probably never changed in his case. it had rust on the metal and enough dirt to plant flowers. also next time it does this look at the cat and see if is glowing, that is always a sign of a clogged cat.

[Slow-V6]

Maft is the same setup on the F-bodies.. Ignition Control Mods are nortorious for going out but you would get a missfire code or something along those lines.. I would start with a new air filter, new spark plugs, and a new PCV valve. Basically do a tuneup if it hasnt been done in a while. Its a good, cheap thing to do and who knows it might be all the car needs. If that dont work then at least you ruled out the maintance stuff..

[BullittSVT]

It gets its maintenance, air filter was replaced not long ago. I had a large tune up when I bought the car back in August

Personally I just want to chop off the cat but that's just me..

[MyFirstZ]

Don't you will hate yourself after 5 minutes of driving.

It wont only be as annoying everyone including yourself but it will feel even slower. I know when the cat on my 6 got clogged and cut it off before i replaced it. Felt like a moron ricer with loud ass exhaust

[greenformula92]

if you got that code for the cat and the rear O2 sensor is working properly i would say its time for a new cat. most of your symtoms are those normally associated with a clogged cat

[Blacdout96]

looks like you got a legit reason to put those headers on.

[JL8Jeff]

It almost sounds like you have an electrical issue with cyl 1 either the injector harness or spark plug wires or possibly a big vacuum leak on that cylinder that is cause it to go so lean it misfires. I don't know the V6 engine setup well enough, but is there any vacuum or AIR line that goes to that cylinder? Does part of the EVAP go to that port, it might be pulling EVAP constantly and if a hose is cracked it could be a constant leak. Or could the intake gasket have gone bad around that port allowing air to leak in and leaning it out? It could be the leaning out causes so many misfires that it goes into limp mode and shuts down or stalls out.

[BullittSVT]

Don't you will hate yourself after 5 minutes of driving.

It wont only be as annoying everyone including yourself but it will feel even slower. I know when the cat on my 6 got clogged and cut it off before i replaced it. Felt like a moron ricer with loud ass exhaust

No cat would kill my performance?

@Jeff
Why would I have a legit reason for my headers now?

[Blacdout96]

Cause you can pop those on, and a high flow cat. If it fixes your problem, awesome, if not, well now you got your exhaust on, and it eliminates one possible problem, either way you'll win.

[Slow-V6]

No cat would kill my performance?

@Jeff
Why would I have a legit reason for my headers now?



I had no cat on my 98 V6 firebird and it made 370 rwhp and 430rwtq on a 125 shot and 225rwhp and 225 rwtq all motor!! I would say it doesnt effect the performance. Mon my stock motor with bolt ons and a 125 shot I made 315rwhp and 410 rwtq.. That was with Headers, 3 inch exhaust, lid, and msd coil packs..

[MyFirstZ]

Oops i was thinking you wanted to chop off the cat and leave the exhaust ending there . . . .

Any update on this?

[BullittSVT]

Haven't driven it around really.. except for the occasional few mile run in the suburbs. The smell of gasoline seems to be heavier now and there's some "Ssssssssss" noise coming from the rear of the car, I can hear it behind the right rear wheel like a hissing noise but not quite. Could be a louder than normal fuel pump?

I've also done some WOT runs in this thing through two gears.. still showing normal pressures all around.

[MyFirstZ]

When you are WOT how does it feel ? usually a cloggd cat will make you feel like you have no go what so ever.

I dunno right now i am lost without being able to look at it for myself

[BullittSVT]

It's got go, feels like no power is lost.. I even chirped it going into second

[Blacdout96]

I suggest not driving it until it's looked at, especially if you're smelling fuel. The fuel could be sitting in the cat, and can be a potential explosion danger, it could be sitting in the cylinders, which can wash the oil away, and damage internal stuff ( that's what happened to that Mustang engine I rebuilt last year).

[sweetbmxrider]

On the lt1 cars, the charcoal canister is in the driver wheel well. I know most of the ls1 cars have it on top of the tank but I think 98s still had it in the well? Could be the same setup on this car and that is what he is hearing/smelling.

[Blacdout96]

On the lt1 cars, the charcoal canister is in the driver wheel well. I know most of the ls1 cars have it on top of the tank but I think 98s still had it in the well? Could be the same setup on this car and that is what he is hearing/smelling.

Yup, its under that pain in the ass plastic flap. I had that problem with my car, for a few days I would smell fuel, but only after filling up. The car threw up a GM code, and I replace the vent valve, but didn't fix the code. Turned out the crappy rubber hoses that connect it to the front of the vehicle. replace two 2 inch pieces, and fixed that problem.

[MyFirstZ]

This probelm keeps getting deeper and deeper. I hope some light shines down your path soon

[BullittSVT]

Alright.. my course of action. New cat. That's my first step, it's definitely rattling alot.

It's a pain in the ass to start the car sometimes -won't even try to start on some key turns
Ignition or fuel pump are my focuses now

[JL8Jeff]

You may want to check the EVAP lines going to the charcoal cannister behind the driver's rear wheel first(if that's where it's located). They can get rock hard over time and crack. The hissing noise might be a big vacuum leak from a cracked or disconnected hose. That would cause it to lean out pretty bad and give you the gas smell from the charcoal cannister.

[BullittSVT]

New cat is getting installed today, took it to a mechanic and that's what they said the best bet was.

[WildBillyT]

Thanks for the update. Keep us posted.

[MyFirstZ]

well that should fix the rattle and check engine light but I have a feeling by the way you said it drives it will still stall.

[BullittSVT]

well that should fix the rattle and check engine light but I have a feeling by the way you said it drives it will still stall.

Yup. I feel the same way

[BullittSVT]

Clogged cat hahah... sounds healthier now, CEL still on but expecting that to go away.

Costs so far this past month for the Camaro = 150$ Towing after breaking down, 50$ Parking Ticket (...I WASNT EVEN 5 yards NEAR asphalt) 100$ Fuel Filter/Labor, 300$ Cat/Labor

Grand total of 600$ for not even driving the damn thing =_=

[MyFirstZ]

pretty fair actually for labor and parts. . .when they did the cat they couldnt clear the light?

Did you drive it after ?

[BullittSVT]

I've been driving it around all day, nothing feels wrong and nothings happened

[BullittSVT]

Soo my car wouldn't start yesterday so I left it for about three hours, came back -it started right up. Would crank but no spark.. guessing this one should be simple?

[greenformula92]

jeez one thing after the other....well i guess check the coil and the crank/cam position sensors, and then check your harness

[MyFirstZ]

when you say no spark you checked for it ? or just because it didnt turn over ?

[BullittSVT]

Just because it didn't turn over - it starts fine plenty of times just that weird time it doesn't. I'll check the plugs later

[MyFirstZ]

I'm still leaning towards my first diagnosis, fuel regulator. I just delt with the exact same symptoms a few months . Even had a new fuel pump from the year before. Long crank or sometimes times none. Stalling while either cruising or pulling away from traffic stop light/sign there were a few others but it was months ago. The car also had a new ect, and idle air done at the same time as the pump for other issues.

That's as much as I can help, without having the car.

[BullittSVT]

Brother says theres no spark - and he also suggested the crank position sensor, how much would that ring up including labor?

[Blacdout96]

Honestly, before spending $170+ on new sensors and then labor, I'd go take a trip to the junk yard and pull off ones off some cars, and use them to test to see if that is infact the problem. It would allow you to learn how to properly pull things apart on our engines without the worry of damaging your car. The great thing about our engines is just about all the parts are compatible between 96-2003 for the 3800 II engine, which you'll find in Bonneville's, Grand Prix's, Le Sabre's, Regals, etc. and there are tons of them in the yards. The bad part is the Crank pulley needs to be taken off to get to the crank senso, which is okay if your a home since oyu could use an impact wrench, but in the junkyard it's different. So unless you pull or drop the engine down, and then have enough muscle to loosen the crank bolt WHILE preventing the crank from rotating ( a screw driver in a cylinder hole should do the trick), it's going to be a pain in the ass to do ( you will also need the crank pulley removal tool to get it off, but I'm sure you can just rent that at Advance Auto.) The Cam isnt as hard, I believe you might need to take the water pump pulley off to get to it, and that's just 4 bolts on the face fo the pulley.

Like I said, I would do that to save money, adn learn some stuff, but that's as long as you have time and patience to learn.

[BullittSVT]

Alrighty!!! Well, after my car being stranded in Margate for two weeks and taking it to a mechanic (which I didn't have much confidence in, but was my only choice) he replaced the ignition module. Runs for five days and acts up just as it has, but it seems to more violently shut off (loud noises when shutting down). This time I was in a parking lot in a not so good part of town instead of the usual cruising. Starts up, cuts off within 5 feet of going in reverse.

I've given up hope in this car and wish to drive it off a bridge. I've also been brought up the suggestion by family that it could be "water" in the gas tank. Now I don't know much about this.. nor do I know how much water can do this - but i'm willing to be enlightened on that possibility. No, I didn't drive through lakes and my gas cap isn't cracked from what I see.

I did notice that the last few times it's died on me like this is when my gas is around a quarter of a tank (not sure if it's a coincidence..) and I did hear a ticking noise going from the top of the engine.. from the left side to the right side like it's some sort of grand father clock.

[sweetbmxrider]

Take off the fuel filter and catch what comes out in a glass jar. Then poor some gas in too. See if any separation occurs.

[Blacdout96]

you got tools at your house? and any SES lights?

[BullittSVT]

Yeah, i've got some tools and yes I have some SES lights on. The car is over at club 3 Jeff haha

[Blacdout96]

well if i can get some time ill take a peak at it. Unless you can get it to advance auto and they let you use their scanner, thats a good first step.

[BullittSVT]

Already had it scanned, one is the EVAP leak and the other is the Cat code that wasn't erased.

[Blacdout96]

First things first, have them deleted first. I'm suprised the shop you took it to didn't erase the codes. like I said, go to the unkyard, and yank out a couple sensors like the cam and crank sensor, and go from there.

as far as the EVAP deal, stop by advance, and pick up liek a foot of 5/16 and/or 3/8 fuel vapor hose, and replace the little pieces that connect your system to the engine. they dry out, and leak, that's what brought my EVAP deal up. I replace the canister purge valve too, but start with the hoses.

[BullittSVT]

My brother has a little code reader, once I find it i'll erase the codes.

Would it be simpler if I just ordered some sensors online? And I also got the car back in my drive way (died on my street, and I cruised with it off all the way down into my driveway -winning).

[Blacdout96]

You can, but you'll be paying alot for them, that's why getting used ones would be simpler at the moment, so when you find the culprit, you go out and buy that one brand new one, and save youself some dough on ones that didn't.

[JL8Jeff]

Are you sure the gas gauge is accurate? Put a couple gallons of gas in and see if it runs fine until you get to 1/4 tank again. I remember fighting a problem on an old 67 Camaro that turned out to be it ran out of gas in my driveway and the gauge was off.

[BullittSVT]

Pretty sure it's not water since the car isn't getting spark. The gas gauge is accurate, i've had that thing on E.

[MyFirstZ]

I don't think the crank or cam position sensors are expensive at all for that car just a pia to do.

[Blacdout96]

for the quality cam and crank snesors from my work, your looking at 67 and 56 bucks no including tax. sounds like they may be the culprits if your not getting spark. only other thing would be bad DIS coils, or an already faulty ignition control module that they sit on.

[sweetbmxrider]

Isn't the crank position sensor there only to detect misfire?

[MyFirstZ]

Not to sure on that car.

How did you guys figure out that there is no spark. Just curious

[Blacdout96]

Isn't the crank position sensor there only to detect misfire?

Negative Ghost Rider. For us, it reads along with the cam sensor to help read the timing for the ignition/ DIS system. If it takes a crap on our cars, no dice in starting it.

[sweetbmxrider]

Alright that's what I thought but figured I'd ask anyways.

[Blacdout96]

Alright that's what I thought but figured I'd ask anyways.

Never hurts to ask. Us V6 guys weren't blessed with the infallible Opti Setup :rofl: