Sudden Loud knocking

[qwikz28]

Just posted this on LS1Tech, looking for other opinions here:

Hello all-

Driving home today, the car suddenly began knocking very loudly. I then limped my car home as I was less than a mile away. The noise is rhythmic and the speed increases with the throttle. The knock can be felt in the tunnel and by the firewall. I initially suspected a problem with the clutch and flywheel, but after some searching, I'm beginning to suspect a failed lifter or some sort of major failure in the engine. The engine still has oil.

If I were to remove the oil filter and cut it open, is there anything I could look for to tell if the problem is in the engine? My reason being, if the problem is engine related, I will likely just park the car until I can afford a new motor. If it isn't, I will just fix it now. I don't have the room or the know-how to remove and rip apart the motor.

Thank you guys in advance.

Jacob

[S.J.SLEEPER]

I would drop the oil too into a clean bucket/pan, take picture with a flash,should be able to see if its got a lot of metal in it.
post picture up.
Using a paint screen or the like while draining to catch any large metal fragments and such is a good idea too.
let me know what you find.

Im guessing rod bearings

[qwikz28]

I would drop the oil too into a clean bucket/pan, take picture with a flash,should be able to see if its got a lot of metal in it.
post picture up.
Using a paint screen or the like while draining to catch any large metal fragments and such is a good idea too.
let me know what you find.

Im guessing rod bearings

Thanks. That makes sense. I'm going to do that first thing tomorrow. I don't have a paint screen though, so I'll just fish around in there with my hands. The engine was rebuilt less than 15k miles ago by the now defunct TTP. I sure hope it isn't the rod bearings.

[coolmanvette75]

Thanks. That makes sense. I'm going to do that first thing tomorrow. I don't have a paint screen though, so I'll just fish around in there with my hands. The engine was rebuilt less than 15k miles ago by the now defunct TTP. I sure hope it isn't the rod bearings.

If its anything in the motor, Matt from TTP now works at ECS

[S.J.SLEEPER]

If its anything in the motor, Matt from TTP now works at ECS

Are you implying, that he is gonna "make good" or "help him out"? Cuz I can almost 99% guarantee he won't. Dude is outa business for a reason, don't know what it is but I'm sure its a good one.

I am in no way downing him, just stating facts of life.

Jake, if there is something wrong w/engine, I can take care of ya. I've done a few LS motors in my day:scratch: I just did Chris's (njtorque) vert, basicaly the whole car....lol

[WildBillyT]

Just curious, does the oil pressure gauge do anything funky?

[qwikz28]

Are you implying, that he is gonna "make good" or "help him out"? Cuz I can almost 99% guarantee he won't. Dude is outa business for a reason, don't know what it is but I'm sure its a good one.

I am in no way downing him, just stating facts of life.

Jake, if there is something wrong w/engine, I can take care of ya. I've done a few LS motors in my day:scratch: I just did Chris's (njtorque) vert, basicaly the whole car....lol
Curt- Thanks for the offer. I means alot to me. I am not sure what I will do if it is the engine. I've wanted a new build for a while now, but the timing isn't good. If I do decide to tear into the car myself, I'll be needing a huge amount of help. And I agree, Matt owes me absolutely nothing at this point, and if I'm honest, I'd rather him not be near my car ever again. Josh already did a tremendous amount of work to correct their mistakes after TTP rebuilt my engine.

Just curious, does the oil pressure gauge do anything funky?

No the oil pressure was right where it normally was. As was the temps. Come to think of it though, the car didn't turn over as it normally does and needed some throttle to start after I pulled over to check the car out. Ugh, motor is toast. Definitely. I'll confirm it when I drain the oil tomorrow.

[sweetbmxrider]

Sounds like a spun bearing.

[qwikz28]

I just don't get how it happened. There is sufficient oil in the car, it was holding normal pressure, and the motor had low miles since the rebuild. I do drive the car hard, but nothing to warrant the engine to die so quick.

[Tru2Chevy]

All it takes is one little piece of metal from a faulty / broken part somewhere, and once that one little piece finds it's way into one bearing the countdown to total destruction begins.

- Justin

[qwikz28]

I suppose. That was the same issue with the first time the engine went. Over-ported head failed and took the motor with it. Oh well. It is what it is.

Anyways, I did some searching and this is what I came up with. If there is bronze flakes in the oil, it's a bearing of some sort. If its metal sticking to the plug and in the filter, it could be anything else.

[sweetbmxrider]

Could be **** bearings too. Or a mistake on the builders part. **** happens. Build it bigger next time :)

[alamantia]

can you hear the knock when the car is ideling? I have a stethsacope if you want to borrow it. If you have a timing light you can listen for the knock as you point the light on the balancer. If it knocks at every strobe flash you can safley say its an issue with the rotating assembly. If it knocks every other flash Id bet is in the valve train.

[qwikz28]

The knock can be heard from the next block down. It is incredibly loud. It overpowers the exhaust even.

[Lt1_8U]

sounds like what my motor did when it went, i spun a bearing and it was making that sound:| sorry to hear man, if you decide to tear into it ill be down to lend a hand or two. even if something had debris on it when the motor was put together and it finally dislodged itself if it got between the bearing and cam/crank its going to spin a bearing just because your dealing with clearances of 1000's of an inch.

[qwikz28]

Alright gurus of NJFBOA. Firstly, thank you for all your help. In my attempts to act cool and collected about all this, I've actually been freaking out as this has come at a time when I have just started applying to jobs, and the prospects are looking bleak.

Anyways, I drained the oil, and this is what I found:

The drain plug:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B99mh3mc3Po/TwHxIbBuAhI/AAAAAAAAA34/BBuUaomebck/s640/20120102_120242.jpg
The drain plug indoors. Looks good to me:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-89eREYMgG2M/TwHxVyaeXpI/AAAAAAAAA4o/sJqOFEULK8c/s640/20120102_121434.jpg
There was a tremendous amount of oily crap in my engine bay. I traced it to a leaky power steering hose. I didn't realize it was getting this bad. I doubt it affected anything though.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-THa0zui-M2k/TwHxLUQiWSI/AAAAAAAAA4A/vbpbmFjwV-4/s640/20120102_120340.jpg
Now the oil. What am I supposed to be looking for?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BkSU_kLYtSA/TwHxTpQjRmI/AAAAAAAAA4g/JqRx6_97pjg/s640/20120102_125848.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qiix7vClsWE/TwHxYVAGChI/AAAAAAAAA4w/8oGRlDebXT8/s640/20120102_125917.jpg
Weird bubbles.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3_3VIsyTxug/TwHy0GSacmI/AAAAAAAAA44/JBiCJzQ4ZLc/s640/20120102_125905.jpg

At this point, I should admit, I've never really analyzed my oil before, so I don't know what to be looking for. I saved the oil and the oil filter (which I may cut up later if need be) in case I should be reanalyzing but as far as I can tell, the oil looks black and I see no bronze flakes or metal stuff. Or am I not looking closely enough?

[88WS-6]

The knock can be heard from the next block down. It is incredibly loud. It overpowers the exhaust even.

Sounds like when my crank went. Did you re-use the stock crank when you had it rebuilt? Could you see the belt tensioner or balancer move with every knock?

[MyFirstZ]

You may not find anything in the oil but that doesn't mean you still didn't spin a bearing.
Could also be a dead cylinder. When you said they rebuilt the motor what did they do?

I will also lend a helping hand if needed.

[sweetbmxrider]

Youtube rod knock etc and see if it compares to what you hear.

[qwikz28]

You may not find anything in the oil but that doesn't mean you still didn't spin a bearing.
Could also be a dead cylinder. When you said they rebuilt the motor what did they do?

I will also lend a helping hand if needed.

Thanks for the offer. I have to look around later for the invoice. I know I have it somewhere, but I wasn't able to find it when I looked quickly earlier.

Youtube rod knock etc and see if it compares to what you hear.

I youtubed LS1 rod knock, spun bearing, and collapsed lifter. They all sounded pretty much the same to me. The spun bearing, if anything, was the closest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT4mQa8_YH0

[Tru2Chevy]

I'm a little surprised that there isn't any noticeable debris in the oil if it really is knocking that loud. I have only grenaded one engine in my life (the 2.8 in my '85 Camaro), and when I drained the oil it looked like paint from an 80's pro street car. After lowering the pan we discovered that the #4 rod bearing had been completely torn up and there was no part of it left on the rod / crank (keep in mind, the car was still running and drivable at this point, but there was a very noticeable lack of power (no v6 jokes). I had been driving it with the rod knock for a few months and was shocked that it held together.

I don't have much LS1 experience, but if it really is knocking that loud, I would definitely assume it's the glorious sound of a rod bouncing on the crank.

- Justin

[S.J.SLEEPER]

shine light on it as your pouring it into another container to see any mettalic speckles in the oil.
also you might not see contaminents cus may be traped in filter as that is what its job is for. cut filter open.

other thing I have seen is ringlands breaking which usually shoots out the exhaust so you will not see metal but will get a bad knocking sound,
do the above, if no metal found in pan/filter, than most likely a broken piston, broken ringland etc...

[MyFirstZ]

Would a compression test show a broken ringland/piston. ?

[qwikz28]

Is it really that unlikely that the problem isn't in the engine? Could it be a bolt that backed out of the flywheel for example? is that even possible? I'm so lost.

[BonzoHansen]

does your family have a trusted shop they go to?

[qwikz28]

Josh does all my work. It's hard to get the car there because of the sheer distance. I was hoping to get a rough diagnosis before deciding whether to take it now, or let it sit. I was eventually hoping to do a LS3 setup, so if this is going to be more than 2k or so, I'll just park it until I can afford to spring for the new setup. That's at least what I'm thinking right now.

Is my thinking logical, at least?

[BonzoHansen]

AAA+ goes 100 miles. Just saying.

[bobbyn362]

is it a low pitched knocking or tapping? it could be a bent pushrod. if you pull your valve covers you can feel all the push rods and rockers and if it s a wiped out lifter or lobe on your cam that can eliminate the whole valve train in ten minutes.

[qwikz28]

AAA+ goes 100 miles. Just saying.
Very good point. Josh is about 97 miles from me.

is it a low pitched knocking or tapping? it could be a bent pushrod. if you pull your valve covers you can feel all the push rods and rockers and if it s a wiped out lifter or lobe on your cam that can eliminate the whole valve train in ten minutes.

It is definitely a low pitched knock.

I think I'm going to try Curt's idea of fishing around in the oil for metal and cutting open the oil filter, and then I'll pull the plugs to see if I can find any evidence of a failed cylinder. If I still can't figure it out, I'll make it Josh's problem.

Edit: I found the TTP invoice. It basically just shows that they ripped the engine apart, cleaned it, and installed new "King Rod Bearings." It says nothing regarding the crank being machined or anything like that.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Would a compression test show a broken ringland/piston. ?

normaly but not always.

JAKE: if you find no metal, you can also pull the plugs, if a piston broke, ringland broke, usually it damages the electrode on the plug but may still fire which you will not notice a miss. (check #7 first, always seems to be the one to break)

As for flywheel bolt and such. If you had a automatic, I would say posibly cracked flexplate.(i have seen some make horrible knocking noises) but your a stick, so highly doubt it any trouble in clutch/trans.

[qwikz28]

normaly but not always.

JAKE: if you find no metal, you can also pull the plugs, if a piston broke, ringland broke, usually it damages the electrode on the plug but may still fire which you will not notice a miss. (check #7 first, always seems to be the one to break)

As for flywheel bolt and such. If you had a automatic, I would say posibly cracked flexplate.(i have seen some make horrible knocking noises) but your a stick, so highly doubt it any trouble in clutch/trans.

I see. Thanks. I'll check the plugs then tomorrow. Looks more and more like the car is getting parked.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

any update?

[qwikz28]

Ah yes. I was going to pull the plugs, but it was cold. I did though cut the filter open, didn't find anything out of the ordinary. No metal that could be picked up with a magnet:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wxzbTHNtrZk/TwNjzK052gI/AAAAAAAAA5A/z-StgaPhq1M/s640/20120103_152209.jpg
I also checked out the oil again. No metal that could be picked up with the magnet, but a bronzish film has accumulated on the top of the oil. It leaves a trail as you stir it. I tried to catch it on my phone, but this is all I could muster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAn9QEMHCIw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[alamantia]

I dont think bearings are magnetic.

edit:

I'm just busting on you by the way. Slide a magnet across the bottom of the pan and towards the oil drain hole, any pieces not caught on the drain plug magnet could be drawn towards the hole.

[qwikz28]

Alright, Anthony (Alamantia) is loaning me a compression tester and timing light to do more diagnostics tomorrow (it's too cold today!). So I'll be starting her up after I fill her back up with oil and then pulling the plugs to do the compression test. To be continued!

[Lt1_8U]

good luck! keep us updated

[Slow-V6]

Does the sound get louder the longer the car is running or the warmer the car gets or does the sound go away? Is it there throughout the RPM band? Does the sound go away when the clutch is pushed in?

I drove my V6 firebird around with 2 spun bearings for about 12,000 miles or so before I was ready to do my motor swap. I put 3 qts of 20W50 and 2 qts of Lucas oil stabalizer. The knocking went away. I also broke a piston on another 3.8 motor and it sounded the same as when I spun the bearings but when I did my 20W50/Lucas oil trick it didnt help in making the knocking not as loud..

[Lt1_8U]

even though you have oil pressure are you getting oil to the top end of the motor? i broke a connecting rod and it wiped out my oil pickup tube, i still had 40lbs of pressure but no oil up top and it made a knocking sound like your describing.

[alamantia]

I went there and that was by far the weirdest noise I have ever heard come out of a car ever in my life. I put my timing light on it, and as soon as it fired up I thought it was backfiring sporadicaly. I placed my hand on the air filter lid and it felt as if someone was under the car hitting the oil pan with a mallet. This horrific knocking shook the entire engine compartment and no way was in any sort of sync with the strobe on mt timing light. The engine ran fine aside from the starter not working one of the times we tried starting the car. At first I thought maybe a roller busted off a lifter and the lifter was wedging itself on the cam lobe. But only on every 5th or 6th revolution? On my way home it occured to me that perhaps the starter solonoid was shot and the starter gear is rubbing up agenst the flywheel and every now and again catching a flywheel tooth. I hope thats it, that would be an easy fix, much easier than tearing the motor down or towing the car. Im keeping my fingers crossed for it being the starter.

[Lt1_8U]

that would definitely be great if it was just the starter

[qwikz28]

Much thanks to Anthony (Alamantia) for coming by to lend his expertise and take a look at my car. As per his recommendation, I peeked into the flywheel to look for any indication of wear from the starter, and this is what I found:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fw8cav1imK0/TwXrEp055xI/AAAAAAAAA5I/l5WaV-g_BoI/s640/20120105_131749.jpg
I'm not really sure how much wear should be on the flywheel otherwise, but there is definitely some nicks in it.

[alamantia]

It would be nice to have someone spin the crank pulley with a wrench while you check the flywheel as it makes one full rotation and see if there is any contact between the starter gear and the flywheel. I know you can shim a starter going up and down. The two starter bolts are knurled to center the starter. Its tough to see from the picture exactly how far away from the flywheel it is. I dont know if there are any aftermarket clutch clearance issues. If its possible to eyeball a measurement between the starter gear and the flywheel the way it sits right now, how much space do you see between the starter gear and the flyeheel, should be at least 1/4 of an inch if memory serves me correctly. You could loosen the bolts a touch and try to pry the starter away from the flywheel and retorque them. Dont over tighten them, I think they only tale about 55 ft/ lbs

[qwikz28]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1dDLTo5QHRQ/TwYEtRU8U4I/AAAAAAAAA5Q/d_L-WmzvJM4/s640/20120105_151356.jpg
Should I be able to push the gear in?

[WildBillyT]

I wonder if it's worth trying to bump start the car to see if the noise is gone.

[98F-1camaro]

I wonder if it's worth trying to bump start the car to see if the noise is gone.

I was thinking the same thing.

[qwikz28]

Nevermind. The starter gear is already retracted. I can pull it out and it seems to be going back in quite normally.

I wonder if it's worth trying to bump start the car to see if the noise is gone.

Not really much room for that. It doesn't really seem like the starter at this point. It appears to be functioning normally and I don't see a significant amount of wear that you would expect from such a loud banging noise. The starter is an aftermarket unit and is clockable so I'll see if I can bolt it back up and see if it is still aligned well. I'll try and start her again after that.

[qwikz28]

Starter is back in. She's in there good and still getting the noise. Also tried running it with the belt off, still making the noise. so that rules out the water pump and other accessories. Caught a quick clip with my phone, but it didn't pick up the knock so well. You can hear it faintly, but it is much louder than it sounds in the video. My sewing machine of an engine is most of what you can hear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F07ciTjCb-4&feature=plcp&context=C3c3fa5fUDOEgsToPDskKA2WG3SEj_gl79XeWVgU6Q

[alamantia]

I hear the loud knock we are talking about like 3 times in that clip, but I hear a lesser tap more in sequence with the RPM of the motore in the backround. Maybe this is stupid thinking here but is it possible that a broken exhaust pushrod or rocker is allowing the cylinder to fire and that loud bang is a backfire thru the intake? Is that possible or am I stupid? Its not hard to yank valve covers...

[sweetbmxrider]

Did you check to make sure all of the plugs are in? It kinda sounds like its just blowing compression out but it seems a little too infrequent for both the compression and fire strokes.

[1984camaroz28]

Pull the valve covers...

[Featherburner]

Pull the valve covers...This!

[Lt1_8U]

This!

x2 !

[S.J.SLEEPER]

I hear the loud knock we are talking about like 3 times in that clip, but I hear a lesser tap more in sequence with the RPM of the motore in the backround. Maybe this is stupid thinking here but is it possible that a broken exhaust pushrod or rocker is allowing the cylinder to fire and that loud bang is a backfire thru the intake? Is that possible or am I stupid? Its not hard to yank valve covers...

I listened to the vid. I have heard that exact noise come from a broken rocker. sounds like combustion popping back through the intake.
Jake pull valve covers. and if you find broken rocker or pushrod, pull intake too cause I guarrantee the intake port is melted to shiiieet from the combustion coming back through the intake. I know this cuz a scorpion rocker broke on me and did this exact thing!!!

[qwikz28]

I listened to the vid. I have heard that exact noise come from a broken rocker. sounds like combustion popping back through the intake.
Jake pull valve covers. and if you find broken rocker or pushrod, pull intake too cause I guarrantee the intake port is melted to shiiieet from the combustion coming back through the intake. I know this cuz a scorpion rocker broke on me and did this exact thing!!!

Thanks fellas. I was planning on pulling the valve covers tomorrow morning. This question may seem silly, but how can I check for a bent/broken pushrod? Will it be obvious? My plan at this point is pop the covers and if I see nothing amiss, to have someone turn the crank to see if all the rockers are operating as they should.

[Lt1_8U]

just have to pull them out and inspect them, roll them on a flat surface and you will see if they are bent. someone correct me if im wrong but couldnt he take the plugs out, pull the coils off and have someone crank the motor while he or someone looks at it without the covers on. then he could inspect the motor while it turns over without the engine running.

[qwikz28]

Sadly, I think pulling the valve covers is easier than getting to the plugs. I suppose that will be my next step if pulling the valve covers yields no answers.

[qwikz28]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--69Rd75C54M/TwcvbsgMQPI/AAAAAAAAA5Y/sfxgou0mSco/s640/20120106_122830.jpg
Do I still need to pull the drivers side? :)

[WildBillyT]

Curt for the bullseye!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--69Rd75C54M/TwcvbsgMQPI/AAAAAAAAA5Y/sfxgou0mSco/s640/20120106_122830.jpg
Do I still need to pull the drivers side? :)

For what it's worth that's kind of good news.

[coolmanvette75]

Thank god thats all it is...

[LTb1ow]

And that is why I will leave the aluminum to beer cans.

[1984camaroz28]

Put stock rockers back on it.. that all we run on are hyd roller stuff

[qwikz28]

Curt for the bullseye!
For what it's worth that's kind of good news.
Thank god thats all it is...

Amen to that!

Put stock rockers back on it.. that all we run on are hyd roller stuff

Don't have them. Broke those too

[sweetbmxrider]

How bout the intake :-?

[V]

i have a full set of stock rockers with stands, they are urs free if u want

[BonzoHansen]

Do I still need to pull the drivers side? :)yes for when you replace them too. :rofl:

WTF, what brand were those?

[alamantia]

Damn, man, i was hoping it was something simple like a starter, but it appears my second guess was right, rockers are no big deal either though. I run a TR230 cam with PAC 1518 springs and hardened pushrods and I left the stock rockers in mine.

[qwikz28]

i have a full set of stock rockers with stands, they are urs free if u want

Yes please. Can I pay you for them in cash or beer at least?
yes for when you replace them too. :rofl:

WTF, what brand were those?

Those were Yella Terras. I originally put them in my car when I did my first cam, Josh swapped them out when he realized I had put them with incorrect length pushrods, and we decided that the stockers were better. When that motor blew, the rockers broke when the head blew a hole in it, TTP put the Yella Terras back in to save some money instead of having to purchase new rockers. They said it would be better with the large cam they were throwing in the motor as well. I just did some searching on Tech and it seems that these rockers have a tendency to break and although once popular, people are now avoiding them like the plague.

I was jumping for joy when I found the broken rocker. I was dreading having to replace the short block. Thank you all very much for helping me with guidance throughout all this; especially Anthony (Alamantia) who loaned tools, came out to check out the car for me, has been in constant correspondence via calls and texts to tell me what to do, and for most of all, for encouraging me to continue looking for the problem and not giving up.

Gosh, that sounded like an award acceptance speech.

[qwikz28]

Damn, man, i was hoping it was something simple like a starter, but it appears my second guess was right, rockers are no big deal either though. I run a TR230 cam with PAC 1518 springs and hardened pushrods and I left the stock rockers in mine.

I'd call it a victory. Everyone was saying it was a spun bearing. Thanks again man. I owe you a beer at the very least. See the above post.

[sweetbmxrider]

Once you posted that video, it was pretty clear that you were blowing compression out. Glad you found the issue and that its not the end of the world......or motor.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

DO NOT get all excited yet Jake.
1) I can almost guarantee that you will need to replace intake or atleast epoxy & grind it due to the backfiring through the intake
2) you will need to pull the head off,....sorry to tell you this, but very common for when rocker breaks, the pushrod beats around on top of lifter and pops out the retaining clip, which then releases thelifter body & spring from its case.
3) OR... you can use your 20/20 vision and a flashlight to look down in hole to confirm clip is completely seated, but MAKE SURE 110% that it is.
Cuz if you don't, the lifter will evebtually come dissasembled down the road and circulate into the rest of your engine. And then you will no longer be getting off easy.

p.s. make sure you find the rest of the rocker (hardened seat part)

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Curt for the bullseye!

Thanks, As soon as I heard the noise in video I knew exactly what it was!!!

I'm not to familiar with lulz,negg,first beer or any other of that jrz sho ebonics....but I do know Ls's... and unfortunetly the other boat anchors that GM produced.

[BonzoHansen]

DO NOT get all excited yet Jake.
1) I can almost guarantee that you will need to replace intake or atleast epoxy & grind it due to the backfiring through the intake
2) you will need to pull the head off,....sorry to tell you this, but very common for when rocker breaks, the pushrod beats around on top of lifter and pops out the retaining clip, which then releases thelifter body & spring from its case.
3) OR... you can use your 20/20 vision and a flashlight to look down in hole to confirm clip is completely seated, but MAKE SURE 110% that it is.
Cuz if you don't, the lifter will evebtually come dissasembled down the road and circulate into the rest of your engine. And then you will no longer be getting off easy.

p.s. make sure you find the rest of the rocker (hardened seat part)

can he use a bore scope to look?

i'd still rather do lifters then a whole bottom end!

[coolmanvette75]

Thanks, As soon as I heard the noise in video I knew exactly what it was!!!

I'm not to familiar with lulz,negg,first beer or any other of that jrz sho ebonics....but I do know Ls's... and unfortunetly the other boat anchors that GM produced.

Hey thats me :lol:

Qwikz, what intake are you running? Now might be a good time to upgrade if your current one id damaged...

[LTb1ow]

More importantly, if this is not the first time this has happened, you should figure out what in your valvetrain is causing your rocker to be the weak link.

Too much spring pressure, or to much pushrod travel etc etc

[Jersey Mike]

Jake,
Glad you two were able to wrench on it today and figure it out. If you end up needing to replace the intake, I have my stock manifold tucked away in storage that you can have.

[bobbyn362]

i knew it was in the top of the motor.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

can he use a bore scope to look?

Yes, thats why I put 3) in there.

i'd still rather do lifters then a whole bottom end!

Absolutely!!!

More importantly, if this is not the first time this has happened, you should figure out what in your valvetrain is causing your rocker to be the weak link.

Too much spring pressure, or to much pushrod travel etc etc

Ive seen this happen with .550" springs and all way to .675"+ springs.
The problem isnt the spring pressure, its the weak area of aluminum that the hardened seat for pushrod sits in. That area normally is "beefed up" to withstand the pressures applied to it, but in the Ls case rockers, these aftermarket aluminum ones run a thinner area there to allow clearance of stock valve covers and such. Any taller and the pushrod side of the rocker will hit inside of valve cover and scuff against the gasket rail of the head.

[qwikz28]

Yikes. I have no idea how to check a lifter. I guess this thread will have to go for a little longer. I suppose pulling a head is way better than replacing a shortblock, so I'll be grateful.

When I lost the stock rockers, the problem wasn't the rockers, but rather a hole in the head. I dont think there is any problems in my valve train besides this one rocker that failed. I'll likely send the stock rockers for a trunion upgrade before installing them as I tend to spin this motor pretty high.

I'll check the intake next. The current one is a ported stocker ls6. I actually didnt notice whether the piece that broke off of the rocker is in there either. Looks like my work is only just beginning. Ill continue work on her next week, i feel much better now that I know what is wrong with the car.

Thanks for all the help this week fellas. I really am very grateful.

[V]

Jake, just let me know when ur around, Either I can drop them off or if you're in the area u can pick them up. I have 2 full sets and no ls1 build plans in the works so they are just taking up room. I really don't need any money for them.

On an added note,
When i built my ss motor, i took the brand new GM rockers from the LS6 and sent them out to Harland Sharp to get the bearings swapped out for trunion bearings. I then had the benefits of stock rockers and the knowing that id never explode needle bearings inside my engine. Held up fine for 500 flywheel hp.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Jake, when i get a few minutes, I'll find a stock lifter laying around and post up pics of what it should and shouldn't look like. Ill also give you a shot of how to inspect for it.

[MyFirstZ]

Might wanna look around for that chunk of metal also. Hopefully it stayed in the head

Hope that is still the only issue, again any help needed just let me know

[1984camaroz28]

DO NOT get all excited yet Jake.
1) I can almost guarantee that you will need to replace intake or atleast epoxy & grind it due to the backfiring through the intake
2) you will need to pull the head off,....sorry to tell you this, but very common for when rocker breaks, the pushrod beats around on top of lifter and pops out the retaining clip, which then releases thelifter body & spring from its case.
3) OR... you can use your 20/20 vision and a flashlight to look down in hole to confirm clip is completely seated, but MAKE SURE 110% that it is.
Cuz if you don't, the lifter will evebtually come dissasembled down the road and circulate into the rest of your engine. And then you will no longer be getting off easy.

p.s. make sure you find the rest of the rocker (hardened seat part)

agreed

[qwikz28]

Thanks Curt. I have installed lifters on the car before when I originally did the heads and cam, so I am moderately familiar. I'll see what I can do to peek inside, but its the number 6 cylinder so it will be tough to wedge my massive head in there to see the lifter.

Paul- will you be around at all tomorrow? And I think Comp cams does the same upgrade now as Harland sharp. I was looking at it earlier today

[V]

Yea ill be around at some point tomorrow, I just know I'm helping my friend help his sis-in-law move for a few hours, then im going out at night. but im not busy the whole day.

[qwikz28]

I have to pick up my sister from JFK at130. Can I swing by late afternoon?

[V]

I have to pick up my sister from JFK at130. Can I swing by late afternoon?

yea, i should be home and free by then. ill PM u my cell in case you don't have it, just call me a little prior to make sure ill be home

[S.J.SLEEPER]

autozone rents tools, you rent it, your return it, and get your $ back, so it costs nothing.

Autozone may have a borescope (like Bonzo mentioned) you can rent. That would do the trick.

If all is good, just make sure you get that pusshrod seat out of the motor. You can stick a magnet in pan through drain plug hole, and use a heavy duty magnet to drag across pan towards hole to get it. That would be awesome if you can dig it out of the motor without having to pull motor out...
Good Luck bro, and if you need anything give me a shout.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

another thing....
how old are the yella terra rockers? I know that Scorpion & YT both had problems in their first designs. Call YT and they will replace the set you have w/ a new set. Then sell that set online to help pay for the trunion upgrade w/comp. If you need a "reciept" I can hook ya up so they'll take them back.
FYI: Harland Sharp & Mast both make a nice inexpensive aftermarket set of rockers that haven't had any issues

[qwikz28]

I got the rockers back in 07 or 08, and I just looked and couldn't find a receipt. I will call them, no doubt, this week and raise hell about the rocker that broke with low miles on it.

I don't see a borescope on Autozone to rent, but they aren't expensive so I'll just order one off Amazon and I should have it by Wednesday when I'm off from school and have time to continue diagnosis.

The rockers are aluminum, so I likely won't be able to catch it with the magnet. If I can't find that broken piece, I may be having to drop the pan. I just hope I can do that with the motor still in the car.

[qwikz28]

Also looks like I'm going to need 7.350" pushrods with this cam. Not sure how I would check if this is correct, but I found some old threads from TTP and it appears they used 7.350" pushrods for cam upgrades: http://ls1tech.com/forums/4316179-post2.html

[sweetbmxrider]

Pushrod length checker and a sharpie. Google gogogo!

[MyFirstZ]

The subframe is to close you can only drop it inches.
I should of offered but I forgot.... could of borrowed one the guys at work

[qwikz28]

Pushrod length checker and a sharpie. Google gogogo!
Got it. Found a good article. I used to own a pushrod length checker, but lost it. I didn't know how to use it anyway and ended up putting pushrods in the car that were too short. Took it to Josh and picked up about 20whp. True story.

The subframe is to close you can only drop it inches.
I should of offered but I forgot.... could of borrowed one the guys at work
I believe there is a way to get the pan off by unbolting the motor mounts and some other things while lifting the motor with an engine hoist a few inches with the frame of the car on stands. That should give enough clearance to get the pan out. I still have to pop the covers back off and look for the broken piece again. I may not need to drop the pan at all.

As for the help at the shop, much appreciated. I'll let you know if I need a hand. You live walking distance from me!

[MyFirstZ]

Ha yes I do....
I was going to suggest the liftng off the motor mounts but wasn't sure how far you were going to go. Since you mentioned limited room to.

[NastyEllEssWon]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-THa0zui-M2k/TwHxLUQiWSI/AAAAAAAAA4A/vbpbmFjwV-4/s640/20120102_120340.jpg



on a side note after you get this all back together....all this money youve spent on the car....lose the fram :D

[sweetbmxrider]

Looks penzoil.

[LTb1ow]

And clean it, that thing is dirtier than my LT1...

[BonzoHansen]

Looks penzoil.

and a fram. nice.



edity: whoops, that filter looked orange on my phone, and I thought it was nasty's car lol

[S.J.SLEEPER]

And clean it, that thing is dirtier than my LT1...

still lighter & faster than your Ltnone...

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Jake,
There is a preload tolerance amount for the lifters.They are hydraulic so you don't have to spot on.measure w/a dial indicator from time pushrod just touches rocker to completely bolted down. you want 50 -100 thousands preload.
Example: with 7.350 pushrods, if you have 150 thousands preload, you want to go with 7.275 or max of 7.300 length rods.

Depending on head milling and decking of block, head gasket thickness, you will need anywhere between
7.300 and 7.400. I have yet to build one that needed under 7.300.
most are 7.350-7.400.

[MyFirstZ]

If you aren't pulling the head I would try and check cylinder leak down on that cylinder to make sure that valve never contacted the piston. .

[qwikz28]

and a fram. nice.
http://image4.jcwstatics.com/product_images/images/small/G_28611G_SW_1.jpg
It's a Purolator. I don't even put Frams on my saturn. And I'll clean the engine bay once I fix the leak. There is simply too much on the to-do list to worry about my engine bay cleanliness. :)

Jake,
There is a preload tolerance amount for the lifters.They are hydraulic so you don't have to spot on.measure w/a dial indicator from time pushrod just touches rocker to completely bolted down. you want 50 -100 thousands preload.
Example: with 7.350 pushrods, if you have 150 thousands preload, you want to go with 7.275 or max of 7.300 length rods.

Depending on head milling and decking of block, head gasket thickness, you will need anywhere between
7.300 and 7.400. I have yet to build one that needed under 7.300.
most are 7.350-7.400.
I'll look into that. I've never messed with a dial indicator before, but after looking quickly, if they can't be rented, they aren't expensive at all. I found another method on a GH High Tech article using a pushrod length checker and caliper which I already have on order :)

If you aren't pulling the head I would try and check cylinder leak down on that cylinder to make sure that valve never contacted the piston. .
Good idea. I'll do that.

[WildBillyT]

and a fram. nice.

Surely you know about SureGrip

[qwikz28]

Hey guys-

I need a bit of help. I removed the valve covers again today and I found all the broken pieces of that rocker. I had to remove the two rockers (the springs appeared to be fully extended) to get to the broken piece but I was able to reassemble the rocker with the broken piece so I am confident that I got, at least, all the large pieces together.

Anyway, I also now have the borescope which I purchased, but I don't know where to stick it to check the lifter. The pushrod seems fine (and its a 7.400 btw) as far as I can tell, but I don't really think the borescope I bought can fit into the hole for the pushrod. Am I going to have to remove a valve spring? I have never done that before. What should I do?

Thanks again guys :)

[S.J.SLEEPER]

You need to look into the hole in the head where the pushrod travels through. Lifter is directly down in that hole about 4 3/4 inches below that opening.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

see lifter in hole?

[qwikz28]

You need to look into the hole in the head where the pushrod travels through. Lifter is directly down in that hole about 4 3/4 inches below that opening.

Can I just peek in, or do I need a borescope?

[S.J.SLEEPER]

i just took that pic with my Lg smartphone.
need to use bright light and should be able to see retaining clip.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

you want to make sure retaing clip is still seated properly...see pic below.

[qwikz28]

Curt-

Thanks for taking the time to get and post that picture for me. So, if that retaining clip is there, and seated properly, I'm good to go?

[S.J.SLEEPER]

yup!

[qwikz28]

Awesome! Thanks again for your help! I think I still have your number by the way, next time I'm in Barnegat, I'd like to swing by your garage if you are working on your car to shoot the **** and see the build in person.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

No problem Jake, Anytime!!!

[qwikz28]

One more problem (I actually don't know that for a fact, but I sure hope it is smooth sailing after this). The Yella Terras were stud mounted, while the OEMs are pedestal mount. I recall reading that the springs need to be fully extended before replacing the rockers. I can't do that though because I need the entire 8 rockers on each bank to be removed before I can put the pedestal down. What do I do? Is there any harm in just replacing them all at once, even if some of the springs are compressed? Will I have to retorque them after I spin the motor to get them such that the valves are closed?

Edit: Nevermind, misread the instructions on LS1Howto. Got it.

[qwikz28]

Finally got around to removing the intake.

Yuck!
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-I5LMWq0XIYI/T0Jp_XpZkGI/AAAAAAAAA6w/1SEqdnZn8_M/s640/20120220_104059.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WkE4Nk6M1iw/T0JzXNczv3I/AAAAAAAAA64/QfgiNkVmEOs/s640/20120220_111318.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IYF-nGJC52k/T0JzfSKwVYI/AAAAAAAAA7A/DwWoOFM4TSU/s640/20120220_111323.jpg
And lastly, the intake:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3SNIB4fkN7I/T0Jzn1JrrvI/AAAAAAAAA7I/Yzt5xk-u-P0/s640/20120220_112127.jpg
There was some gas accumulated by the injector, and because of that damage to the composite pictured above, I am going to err on the side of caution and replace the intake.

[qwikz28]

I got the car running yesterday. The valvetrain is SUBSTANTIALLY quieter. I mean, the ticking of the valvetrain could be heard in the car over the exhaust, and is now completely gone. There was definitely something wrong before, but whatever it was, it is gone now.

In other news, it all has to come back apart. Buttoning it back on, I misspoke and told my cousin to torque the valve cover bolts to the same torque as the rockers; 22ft/lbs. He ended up snapping the first one. Not his fault, completely mine. Wasn't paying attention when he asked. I tried drilling out the middle of the broken bolt and using a screw extractor, and naturally made it worse. I just left that screw undone and plugged up the hole in the valve cover with the broken bolt and some glue. I'm going to need new heads. It is what it is. For now, the car runs, but I can't really drive it with the hole being covered up with only glue.

Anyway, thanks for all the help guys. I obviously couldn't have done it without you guys. I'm going to order new heads soon (probably going for some milled, ported AIs) and have the car running before the end of next month, hopefully.

[chrisfrom nj]

im glad you finally figured it out