Trans Questions Part Duex

[LTb1ow]

Ok, still up in the air about the trans I wanna throw behind the new engine.

Options are, 4L60E, 4L80E, TH400, or TH400/GV combo

Option 1: 4L60E costs $2925 with a 2 year warranty, and would require just a reflash of current converter. Downside is, google fast cars with 4L60Es and, you do not see many, if any at all. They are not meant to be raced and this is a factor in my choice. Upside is, it would obviously bolt right up and require no mods.

Option 2: 4L80E costs $2200 for a 1 year warranty, and would require a trans crossmember at $170 and a new converter at $845. OR, a full "kit" which covers all the stuff I need to swap it in for $3500 and also gives a 2 year warranty. The trans can handle more than I plan on throwing at it, and comes standard with a T brake, BUT, will require cutting/BFH mod to the trans tunnel.

Option 3: TH400 costs $2500 with no warranty(local used unit) but would come with everything I need to bolt in and go. Converter would need to be restalled. Upside it would also handle anything I throw at it but, I lose OD and lock up.

Option 4: TH400 with GV unit, not really a practical option as it would cost well over 5k to and I could easily just do a 4L80E for less.


So, at this point I am wondering how much value I place in lock up and OD in the trans. Granted cars came with 3 speed transmissions well before this so it can be done, just curious how people would feel in this situation given the options.

[Blackbirdws6]

You've stated the options but didn't mention your intentions with the car.

Based on our convos I would go 4L80E for the following reasons:

- sounds like it's overkill but I think that's a good thing.
- if you sold the converter you have, you would be close in price to the built 4L60E
- you would have OD
- taking a hammer to your car would be worth it for all the benefits
- I assume this would be a new unit rather than a used TH400 (told me never buy a used trans)

[BonzoHansen]

Usage is key, absolutely.

Do you really need a lot of floor massaging for that? (not saying you are wrong, just asking). I know that trans slips into a lot of older cars w/o issue. Just as a for instance the t56 in my 77 required all sorts of surgery, but a 4L80E in a 2nd gen appears to require none. I have seen on some older cars some fairly minor floor hammering depending on which 4L80E you get as the coolant lines were relocated at one point.

th400 vs 4L80E
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g203/oldschool1975/4L80E%20Swap%208-2008/DSC02616.jpg

My $0.02 is if it is a street car that gets driven more than 20 minutes go 4L80E. If it is just a drag car getting towed then th400.

I have not checked prices, but $2500 for a used TH400 seems steep to me unless you know the whole history of that trans.

[LTb1ow]

You need to cut a port for the wire harness going into trans, ears need to be cut off the trans and a few select areas need to be massaged.

So I guess you guys are implying that driving highway stuff without OD/lockup will get old fast?

And BLS, this is for a friends project

[Featherburner]

Does the 4l80e come with a stand alone computer for that price? If so, that seems like a good deal to me. What is the HP rating? Have you see what is involved with the hump surgery? I wouldn't be opposed to cutting and welding if I owned your car. Provided it is done properly.

[LTb1ow]

No, the trans would bhe controlled via the PCM. Trans is rated at 750hp

[BonzoHansen]

You need to cut a port for the wire harness going into trans, ears need to be cut off the trans and a few select areas need to be massaged. Child's play, IMO a non-issue.

So I guess you guys are implying that driving highway stuff without OD/lockup will get old fast? Yes. Come for a ride in my car this spring. I'll drive in 4th for a while, then go to 5 & 6. You decide
:wink:

[WildBillyT]

Matt:

I don't know if this is still the plan but you mentioned that you would be running 3.08 gears in your rear axle, so I'm just gonna throw that out there.

Personally I'd go 4L80E without much thought. TH400 with a GV is nice but that's basically a 4L80E anyway.

And to be honest, fab work will be required when you are throwing around some decent chunks of change and looking to go out of the normal "zone" like this. And unless it's really minor clearancing I'd look to cut and weld over a lot of hammering. Do it nice the first time.

[LTb1ow]

I may bump it to a 3.42 gear set, but with OD, at 75mph thats roughly 2300rpm, which you can't beat.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Just to let you know, in your application, engine load is a must!!! OD trans has been proven to work, But T400 w/3:08 gears works exceptionally well.

[Featherburner]

Are you going with an LT1 Boost kit?

[LTb1ow]

Yea I know Curt, hence the lower gear set, 3.08/3.23 pending rear end brand and available gear sets

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

4L80E. You drive your car a lot (when it works).

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Are you going with an LT1 Boost kit?

:bertstare:

Matt.... ummm I have a T400 just hanging out here on shelf. I was going to use it my car, I just cant persuade myself to give up rowing gears. I'll give ya a screaming deal on it.

[LTb1ow]

I just am not sure whether I am able to give up OD and highway cruising yet Curt, gotta call a builder tmmr and I will let you know.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

T400 & 3:08's are perfect, nice cruising on highway. Ask a couple FI guys on tech.
My Brother has T400 with 3:23's in his 02 WS6 and goes down GSP with it from howell to my house all the time. But I like the 3:08's a bit better due to lower rpms at 70-75mph

[LTb1ow]

How is his rpms around town, red light to red light though?

[sweetbmxrider]

th400 will be quicker racing too....

[LTb1ow]

He is not building a full out race car though, so that won't really matter all that much.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

N/A Ls2 motor 534hp t400 3:23's runs around 2900-3000 rpms @ 70+mph

Turbo'ed t400 3:08's ran 2600-2700 rpms @ 70+mph

neither one was bad at all from red light to red light.. try it with a stock motor and sure it will be a dog.
I believe both were with a 28" tire

YOU DONT NEED GEAR FOR A TURBO CAR!!! The lower the gear the better in most cases.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

th400 will be quicker racing too....

Also cheaper for parts, more reliable, & can withstand more HP than a A4

p.s. if you only want to spend your money once & have room to grow (hp wise)
1) spend a buttload on a 6l80e setup
2) spend less than half w/t400 & 3:08's
or....
you can spend a buttload on T56 and keep dumping $ into it like me....:facepalm:

[LTb1ow]

a 6l80E Curt?

[Featherburner]

:bertstare:I was asking because Fastbird made over 750 hp with one of his kits. :bertstare:

[LTb1ow]

I was asking because Fastbird made over 750 hp with one of his kits. :bertstare:

In a manual, with a ton of meth and really pushing the poor 76gts

[BonzoHansen]

6L80E has no after market controller, and is tall & low so it presents packaging issues. It is not yet proving to be a good retrofit trans for the masses.

A 4L80E will let you run better rear gears and is as strong as a th400. Best of both worlds. It's a beast, it's a TH400 with 4th gear. IMO that is doing it once & right

If you do a TH400 you can probably add a gear vendors are a later date. But often later never comes.

Who is the car for?
"I may bump it to a 3.42 gear set"
"I just am not sure whether I am able to give up OD and highway cruising yet"
"He is not building a full out race car"

Now we are into gear selection, etc. Is it a turbo car? What is the total application? Is it a street car or race car? How many street miles a year on it? What is the engine RPM range?

[LTb1ow]

As you cannot change the internal gearing of a 4L80E, other options that you have brought will not be discussed at this point.

Will be calling Jakes Trans. tmmr and get some more opinions on it, thanks guys.

[BonzoHansen]

As you cannot change the internal gearing of a 4L80E, other options that you have brought will not be discussed at this point.

Will be calling Jakes Trans. tmmr and get some more opinions on it, thanks guys.

Jake in Texas? You'll be buying a 4L80E from him. Tell him I said hello lol

[LTb1ow]

Yes, that is what WBT mentioned you would say.

[Featherburner]

In a manual, with a ton of meth and really pushing the poor 76gtsTrue, but 700 hp is not out of the question with an auto.

[BonzoHansen]

Yes, that is what WBT mentioned you would say.

lol yes. jake knows his stuff

[LTb1ow]

True, but 700 hp is not out of the question with an auto.

Which is why the trans in question is rated to 750hp which I assume is rwhp.. :wink:

Fastbird also has pretty nice heads on his motor

[S.J.SLEEPER]

a 6l80E Curt?

I meant to type 4l80e...

6L80E has no after market controller, and is tall & low so it presents packaging issues.

It is not yet proving to be a good retrofit trans for the masses.

False.. can run the 4l80e based 6spd by TCI w/controller, Also can run a gm 6l80e with a bit of wiring/pcm & correct tuner for the job.

Has been installed in 4th gens, 5th gens,GTOs, full size trucks & vettes....

[LTb1ow]

While double OD would be sweet, this is not a race car nor is it a rich guys baller build. So 4L80E will be a nice compromise.

[BonzoHansen]

Very bold of you lol. Well, the 4L80E TCI trans is not a 6L80E. I stand corrected and will add better adjectives for the nit picking crowd: there is no dedicated 6L80E stand alone controller yet.

Yea, it's in a 5th gen, BFD. Of course, GM put them. Trucks are high off the ground. I've seen them in 1st & 2nd gens, they hang quite low and are tall requiring basically a new tunnel. IMO a street car in NJ the lowest point in the car should not be a trans pan. And if it is not a street car then a 6L80E is a bad choice IMO. YMMV.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

While double OD would be sweet, this is not a race car nor is it a rich guys baller build. So 4L80E will be a nice compromise.

Take a Loan out...:kneeslap:

Very bold of you lol. Well, the 4L80E TCI trans is not a 6L80E. I stand corrected and will add better adjectives for the nit picking crowd: there is no dedicated 6L80E stand alone controller yet.

Yea, it's in a 5th gen, BFD. Of course, GM put them. Trucks are high off the ground. I've seen them in 1st & 2nd gens, they hang quite low and are tall requiring basically a new tunnel. IMO a street car in NJ the lowest point in the car should not be a trans pan. And if it is not a street car then a 6L80E is a bad choice IMO. YMMV.
I am 98% sure the BS3 & AEM setup will control the 6l80e, but they are not dedicated, just able along with running everything else. (again, steering towards the rich man baller builds)

Okay...now I will agree with you. lol


p.s. I did say..... "4l80e based 6spd". Its their answer to the guys wanting a 6l80e. And a poor one at that due to the issues I have personally seen with them.

[BonzoHansen]

Lol. Yeah I don't hear good on them either and the price is high. Go 4L80E and gear vendors. 8 speed!!!!!!!

[LTb1ow]

Lol. Yeah I don't hear good on them either and the price is high. Go 4L80E and gear vendors. 8 speed!!!!!!!

Say what?

That would be a 5 speed...?

[BonzoHansen]

:facepalm:

go find out how gv works.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

LMFAO..... to the last two posts.

[sweetbmxrider]

Th400 is lighter than a 4l......

[LTb1ow]

Th400 is lighter than a 4l......

As a Th350 is lighter than a Th400, as a ten bolt is lighter than any aftermarket rear end, as a LS1 is lighter than n LT1, as any stock suspension piece sans K is lighter than aftermarkert, must I go on?

Whats your point?

[sweetbmxrider]

Lighter and stronger hence faster and more reliable. Don't apples to oranges me pal. Better gear ratios too so it would be quicker.

[WildBillyT]

Lighter and stronger hence faster and more reliable. Don't apples to oranges me pal. Better gear ratios too so it would be quicker.

4L80 and TH400 have the same ratios save 4th.

[BonzoHansen]

Lighter and stronger hence faster and more reliable. Don't apples to oranges me pal. Better gear ratios too so it would be quicker.

more power overcomes a few pounds. and being a tenth faster is diminished if the car is no fun to drive except at the track.
4L80E is essentailly a TH400 with 4th gear so I'd not be anymore concerned with reliability over a TH400.

[sweetbmxrider]

It definitely isn't a few pounds. He also has to botch up the car and hope it can be tuned to work properly along with a new converter. Not my money though so I'd gladly spend it towards an 80

[WildBillyT]

4L80 is 35 lbs heavier.

Adam, to your last point, and I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but if the retrofitting and such will lead to a botch job I'd stick with the TH400 and 3.08s. No shame it tapping out- I had to do it on a big project.

[sweetbmxrider]

I thought the weight was more than that. Its been a while since I looked into the swap so I guess my facts are wrong. Matt knows his choices and what he wants the car to do, should be an easy pick.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

I thought it was a 75lb difference...but maybe i was thinking of 6l80 since thats on my mind.

[LTb1ow]

I know the choices but want opinions on the matter. Not a small chunk of change to blow and end up hating driving the car.

Basically I have no idea WTF I am doing

[WildBillyT]

From Jake (who else)


TJ,
Don't be skeptical. Your weight of 139 is 4 lbs heavier than my weight for a TH350.

I measured a TH350, TH400, and 4L80E all on the same scale on the same day.

Weights were

TH350 short tail- 125 lbs.
TH400- 134 lbs.
4L80E- 178 lbs.

A TH400 DOES NOT weight 30 lbs more. You are hearing that from the "internet experts" that likely couldn't identify the difference between a TH350 and TH400 if both were sitting side by side.
Once ONE idiot says it on the internet it becomes fact. Like a TH400 consuming xx more HP than a TH350 etc..
A TH400 is about 10 lbs heavier and the 10 lbs is in the rotating weight. Mostly the planetary sets.


He says about ~45 but the '80 was not a fresh rebuild.

[sweetbmxrider]

That's your problem. Pick a direction with the car and go with it. If you wanna drive it on the street, set it up for that. If you wanna race it periodically, go that route.

[sweetbmxrider]

Plus converter differences Bill. It can add up.

[BonzoHansen]

That's your problem. Pick a direction with the car and go with it. If you wanna drive it on the street, set it up for that. If you wanna race it periodically, go that route.
Then you really need to define periodically. Every other weekend? Once a year? Etc. That may define what street manners you need to be happy, and define the compromises in setup you are willing to live with. It can be even costlier down the road if you choose wrong now.

Matt, you just have to be real honest with yourself on the intended usage. Once you know what you want and what you must have, what would be nice to have, and what you don’t need, make a plan & stick to it. You are already way ahead of the game that it is not your DD.

[sweetbmxrider]

Exactly what I am saying. We all have different opinions on this and that. It really comes down to what HE wants.

[BonzoHansen]

Indeed

[LTb1ow]

Just to add for the poor souls following this, this is a cut I would have to make.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/orionspl/holecut1.jpg

[sweetbmxrider]

Into structural metal, seems legit.

[LTb1ow]

Well the idea is that rather then smashing it in with hammer, you weld in plates to gain room for harness plug.

[BonzoHansen]

box it up it will be ok. that is not a lot of cutting. I assume you have welded in sub frames connectors

what hits there that needs clearance?


Guys notch 1st gen subframes to clear LS AC compressors all the time

Here you can see a notch near the RF UCA, boxed in and welded. Guys who routinely beat the snot out of their high hp cars in more than one direction.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee259/awr68/MYDC03171.jpg

[LTb1ow]

Harness into the trans

[WildBillyT]

box it up it will be ok. that is not a lot of cutting.

what hits there that needs clearance?

Yup. Especially with sfcs and maybe a roll bar. You oughta see how much frame you have to cut to do a dse mini tub.

[BonzoHansen]

Harness into the trans

which way is forward in that pic --->>>?

[LTb1ow]

http://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/automatic-transmission/139124d1215488739-whats-needed-4l60e-4l80e-swap-img_0659.jpg

[BonzoHansen]

that is child's play, no problem

[sweetbmxrider]

The cut is towards the back of the car.

Just because everyone does it, doesn't make it right :-P

[LTb1ow]

The cut is towards the back of the car.

Just because everyone does it, doesn't make it right :-P

Please let us know what YOU would do then. :bertstare:

[sweetbmxrider]

T56

[LTb1ow]

T56

Which of course, would entail a hole cut in the firewall.

You sir, are hypocritical and making my head hurt.

[sweetbmxrider]

For what? Firewall isn't structural metal like you wanna cut. If you do it right, I'll be ok with it.

[LTb1ow]

Well unless I just like idling and not in gear driving, I would assume I would want a clutch pedal? :lol:

I am not sure there is a level of "right" to this, its not a swap thats done a lot nor is it close to what should be there.

So, meh, I gotta get the current POS trans out and figure it out.

[Featherburner]

T56You really want him to stay in the 12s don't you?

[LTb1ow]

Another option for the cut.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/orionspl/plughole1.jpg

And another.
http://home.koping.net/u3243a/tillfalliga/DSC02272.JPG

[S.J.SLEEPER]

Matt,
I think I have a way for you to decide which trans to go with.
Obviously your car is not a D.D., but you will take it out for the occasional cruise or late night runs :shifty:..(if u want to play w/the big boys,lol) so there is 2 ways I would go about this.

Turbo 400 w/3:08's :
Cheaper & more available parts/build labor
no harness & tuning to deal with (shift points,line pressure, etc.. for the nitpickers)
less modifications to chassis
overall easy of install
3spd but will run down GSP with ease & will rip around town

4L80E w/ 3:50's :
More expensive to build parts/labor
wiring of harness & tuning the ecm for shift points,line pressure, etc..
possible failure of solenoids internally
modifications to chassis
less room for custom exhaust routing
more difficult of an install, more down time due to wiring tuning etc..
4spd and can run down GSP @ 90 (allthough not for long til popo write you)

I personally would go the 400 route due to it being cheaper & less involved and being that your car is not a D.D..
If you plan on driving it to florida than maybe you should go w/4L80E and mite as well toss in a LS motor while your at it for reliability and some real HP..:kneeslap:

[sweetbmxrider]

Well unless I just like idling and not in gear driving, I would assume I would want a clutch pedal? :lol:

I am not sure there is a level of "right" to this, its not a swap thats done a lot nor is it close to what should be there.

So, meh, I gotta get the current POS trans out and figure it out.

Start in gear, clutchless shift.

[BonzoHansen]

Matt,
I think I have a way for you to decide which trans to go with.
Obviously your car is not a D.D., but you will take it out for the occasional cruise or late night runs :shifty:..(if u want to play w/the big boys,lol) so there is 2 ways I would go about this.

Turbo 400 w/3:08's :
Cheaper & more available parts/build labor
no harness & tuning to deal with (shift points,line pressure, etc.. for the nitpickers)
less modifications to chassis
overall easy of install
3spd but will run down GSP with ease & will rip around town

4L80E w/ 3:50's :
More expensive to build parts/labor
wiring of harness & tuning the ecm for shift points,line pressure, etc..
possible failure of solenoids internally
modifications to chassis
less room for custom exhaust routing
more difficult of an install, more down time due to wiring tuning etc..
4spd and can run down GSP @ 90 (allthough not for long til popo write you)

I personally would go the 400 route due to it being cheaper & less involved and being that your car is not a D.D..
If you plan on driving it to florida than maybe you should go w/4L80E and mite as well toss in a LS motor while your at it for reliability and some real HP..:kneeslap:

I agree with all of that. Assuming the 3.08's work well with whatever motor setup you are going to have. You could proabably even a bit higher numerically. I had a TH350 & a 3.27 rear in my 3rd gen and it was a good compromise. Can add GV later if you want more gears.

[LTb1ow]

Well gents, called Jake's, and decided to go the right way with this. I will update in the following months.

[WildBillyT]

Well gents, called Jake's, and decided to go the right way with this. I will update in the following months.

I guess he passed muster?

[LTb1ow]

Certainly was helpful, and answered all my questions.

[sweetbmxrider]

Sweet, an 80 rodeo

[Featherburner]

Which is why the trans in question is rated to 750hp which I assume is rwhp.. :wink:

Fastbird also has pretty nice heads on his motorNope, fwhp.

[LTb1ow]

Well even then its way overkill, by a few hundred :lol:

[LTb1ow]

Back from the depths of mayhem and shenanigans.

Question remains, do I want to cruise at 750rpm less at 75mph and is it worth the extra grand.

Will need to decide by early October, otherwise I miss a good sale and I really need to decide this :lol:

[Blackbirdws6]

Yes

[WildBillyT]

Yes.

[BonzoHansen]

IMO a street car needs OD or equivalent numerically low final drive or it won't be any fun to drive more than 20 minutes.

The T56 in my 77Z was hands down the best thing I ever did.

[Blackbirdws6]

Or the lack of OD will make the car pretty noisy at highway speeds potentially forcing him to slow down and cruise in the far right. Potentially keeping him out of the eye of johnny law.

[BonzoHansen]

nah

[sweetbmxrider]

Are we talking 1250 vs 2000 rpm or 2500 vs 3250? That makes a big difference.

[LTb1ow]

2250 vs 3000rpm

I am used to 2800-3000 with the old setup so, thats whats driving my indecision.

[WildBillyT]

TH400 vs. 4L80?

[LTb1ow]

Si senor.

[WildBillyT]

4L80 then. I wish I had OD in the Nova.

[sweetbmxrider]

Is it cost effective to go od?

[Jersey Mike]

Well gents, called Jake's, and decided to go the right way with this. I will update in the following months.

hmm

[BonzoHansen]

Is it cost effective to go od?

he's doing a freaking turbo build. let's not bring cost effective into it now.

[grazi]

My friend has a th400 w converter for sale almost free. Look at for sale thread if you want PM me. Nice signature by the way

[sweetbmxrider]

he's doing a freaking turbo build. let's not bring cost effective into it now.

Hahaha but why else would he ask?

[BonzoHansen]

Hahaha but why else would he ask?

he is scared of the big trans :kneeslap:

or he still has not decided on the true usage/intent of the car.

[LTb1ow]

he is scared of the big price :kneeslap:

Fixed. :rofl:

[sweetbmxrider]

:lol: Well, you know what is best for your build and life.

[LTb1ow]

Yea, sell it all, and buy a 1000cc bike that goes faster stock.