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LTb1ow
11-15-2012, 06:05 PM
*Don't turn it into politics por favor Jose*


Been a lot of buzz round the diesel world cause the EPA cracked down hard on a few tuning companies, and now its like a landslide of companies no long offering DPF, EGR, cat etc deletes. Which was to be expected, you can't expect the EPA to not notice your rolling coal, burnout vids on public roads on youtube adverting your emissions delete stuff, BUT...

Someone mentioned that hot rodding stuff only contributes a very very small fraction of overall emissions and that the EPA is merely trying to keep their jobs since they have basically put requirements on everything from BBQs to gas cans. So they go after very high public aware stuff to show face.

Kinda curious if anyone had any numbers on hot rod stuff compared to overall car usage.

Should I go put on my tinfoil hat? :kneeslap:

V
11-15-2012, 06:09 PM
I guess it's good to have a 1996 diesel...

sweetbmxrider
11-15-2012, 06:13 PM
I believe cow farts are above diesel emissions but below gasoline emissions. Maybe you should write your senator a letter?

Paul Huryk
11-16-2012, 08:55 AM
*Don't turn it into politics por favor Jose*


Been a lot of buzz round the diesel world cause the EPA cracked down hard on a few tuning companies, and now its like a landslide of companies no long offering DPF, EGR, cat etc deletes. Which was to be expected, you can't expect the EPA to not notice your rolling coal, burnout vids on public roads on youtube adverting your emissions delete stuff, BUT...

Someone mentioned that hot rodding stuff only contributes a very very small fraction of overall emissions and that the EPA is merely trying to keep their jobs since they have basically put requirements on everything from BBQs to gas cans. So they go after very high public aware stuff to show face.

Kinda curious if anyone had any numbers on hot rod stuff compared to overall car usage.

Should I go put on my tinfoil hat? :kneeslap:

I'm not even sure if that information is available...


Two things come to mind with that:

1) I bet that normal cars that run around not properly tuned put out many X more bad emissions into the atmosphere than if they were running 100% - and the EPA doesn't care about them. And if they squeek by local emissions standards, no attention is paid.

2) The EPA is a reactive portion of the government and it only gets up off it's butt and looks into things when enough people complain - usually being ones that have connections in such an agency...

LTb1ow
11-23-2012, 08:29 PM
Not that anyone cares, but was in at a local diesel speed shop today and I knew the sales guy and jokingly asked bout the tuners.

He pulled out a new form that is intended to separate the dealer with the actual product, you have to now sign a contract stating you never intend for the product to be used on DOT roads etc, pretty crazy.

Dudbird113
11-23-2012, 08:54 PM
I make the world warmer one gallon at a time. If your looking for diesel parts n stuff try xdp desiel in wall i believe

LTb1ow
11-23-2012, 09:49 PM
I make the world warmer one gallon at a time. If your looking for diesel parts n stuff try xdp desiel in wall i believe

Thats where I was :nod:

I get all my stuff through them for the durtymax

Blackbirdws6
11-23-2012, 10:16 PM
Not that anyone cares, but was in at a local diesel speed shop today and I knew the sales guy and jokingly asked bout the tuners.

He pulled out a new form that is intended to separate the dealer with the actual product, you have to now sign a contract stating you never intend for the product to be used on DOT roads etc, pretty crazy.

That sucks. Anything on there that says if they catch you using it that your SOL? I would assume so. Should be interesting if they expand this further to all off-road parts. "Be well John Spartan"

LTb1ow
11-23-2012, 10:22 PM
That sucks. Anything on there that says if they catch you using it that your SOL? I would assume so. Should be interesting if they expand this further to all off-road parts. "Be well John Spartan"

Afaik, the disclaimer of "off road use only" was weake to begin with and now the EPA is coming down hard on blatent offenders of it

Dudbird113
11-24-2012, 12:15 AM
My sisterS boyfriend works at there shop they partnered up with across the street from them

LTb1ow
12-11-2012, 06:14 PM
And since none of you are diesel fanbois... here you go on something closer to home..

http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=167&Itemid=158

Coming soon, no more EGR/AIR/CAT etc deletes for gassers.

The_Bishop
12-11-2012, 07:22 PM
Buy own tuner = Win?

Tuner makes you sign offroad only paper = Win?

Always a way around...

LTb1ow
12-11-2012, 07:28 PM
Buy own tuner = Win?

Tuner makes you sign offroad only paper = Win?

Always a way around...

Uh, what?

If you want to use EFIlive or HPtuners, they do not allow for emissions deletes anymore. So, unless you have older versions, you are screwed now.

So, unless you are writing your own software, you be done sir done.

The_Bishop
12-11-2012, 08:01 PM
Then I suppose that HP tuners will be refunding my monies, as I paid for a complete tuner and not nanny-software.

The_Bishop
12-11-2012, 08:26 PM
Further research has pointed this to still being a diesel thing. No EGR or DPF delete for the oil burners. EPA is getting a little too big for it's britches.

LTb1ow
12-11-2012, 08:26 PM
Then I suppose that HP tuners will be refunding my monies, as I paid for a complete tuner and not nanny-software.

Well call and ask to confirm, I would assume you got a version in which its allowed if you already bought it.

The_Bishop
12-11-2012, 08:28 PM
Fortunately I have retained several older versions. Software pack-ratting FTW.

LTb1ow
12-11-2012, 09:37 PM
Thats good man, just wanted to throw it up cause it seems that gas fanbois don't seem to care.

Noose may be tightening.

BigAls87Z28
12-12-2012, 12:39 AM
And since none of you are diesel fanbois... here you go on something closer to home..

http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=167&Itemid=158

Coming soon, no more EGR/AIR/CAT etc deletes for gassers.

So you're saying that if you remove a Federally mandated emissions control device, the authorities might have something to say about it?

What I see that will come from this is a new generation of engines. EPA has put road blocks and restrictions up before, and somehow we have magically climbed out of the doom and gloom to make better engines.

With that said, the EPA has a serious hard on for diesel fuel. I don't know why, but I'm sure there is enough corporate money behind it to keep it that way. The automakers seem to not care as there will be more diesel powered passenger cars on sale in the US in the few years then there had ever been before. Chevrolet, Mazda, Ford, Honda, VW, Audi, BMW, and Benz are all coming to market with diesel cars.

Dudbird113
12-12-2012, 01:43 AM
Epa is tightning te noose. Should move to florida where there is no emmision testing i believe

The_Bishop
12-12-2012, 05:47 AM
The problem is the tuning solutions available to us are removing the necessary options for off-road use tuning. Doesn't matter where you move.

BigAl, I understand that the EPA is trying to make things clean, but this is getting ridiculous. How much real pollution is emitted by enthusiasts? Now granted, the idiots that purposely tune diesels to blow out sun-blocking clouds of black soot make the rest of the tuning industry look bad, but maybe that needs to be handled on an individual level. What's currently happening is like outlawing screwdrivers because people modify carbs with them.

BonzoHansen
12-12-2012, 07:02 AM
The problem is the tuning solutions available to us are removing the necessary options for off-road use tuning. Doesn't matter where you move.

BigAl, I understand that the EPA is trying to make things clean, but this is getting ridiculous. How much real pollution is emitted by enthusiasts? Now granted, the idiots that purposely tune diesels to blow out sun-blocking clouds of black soot make the rest of the tuning industry look bad, but maybe that needs to be handled on an individual level. What's currently happening is like outlawing screwdrivers because people modify carbs with them.guys blowing soot are idiots and I suspect that has helped put a bulls-eye on the aftermarket, especially since the federal EPA is now run by a my way or the highway zealot.

but you can't regulate case by case, the world is too big. you have to have standards. maybe different ones for normal use vs limited use. wait, we have that now!

Before ODB2 you had to make your car pass sniff test. And back then the technology and the cats were less than stellar. Now GM can make a 638hp engine blow clean. There is no reason to remove cats or AIR anymore on a DD. Being cheap is not a good excuse. And being a car guy should not mean a complete disregard for the environment

Everyone cried when the 1st EFI showed up, the aftermarket figured it out. They will again.

WildBillyT
12-12-2012, 07:06 AM
guys blowing soot are idiots and I suspect that has helped put a bulls-eye on the aftermarket, especially since the federal EPA is now run by a my way or the highway zealot.

but you can't regulate case by case, the world is too big. you have to have standards. maybe different ones for normal use vs limited use. wait, we have that now!

Before ODB2 you had to make your car pass sniff test. And back then the technology and the cats were less than stellar. Now GM can make a 638hp engine blow clean. There is no reason to remove cats or AIR anymore on a DD. Being cheap is not a good excuse. And being a car guy should not mean a complete disregard for the environment

Everyone cried when the 1st EFI showed up, the aftermarket figured it out. They will again.


I am thinking it will be aftermarket PCM setups.

LTb1ow
12-12-2012, 07:22 AM
You guys are missing the point.

The USA EPA is "forcing" in an indirect manner of course a company based out of New Zealand to change their product. The ****ing EPA.

As pointed out above, EFIive, and HPtuners are pulling the ability to delete emissions stuff from increasing pressure from the EPA. Technically any unlocking of a factory PCM to mess with the tune is illegal as it circumvents factory emissions tuning, if you give a mouse a cookie...

And Bonzo, since we all can't afford new 5th gens, V's, or Vettes, your argument is rather silly, I own a old 4th gen, and its now being held to today's motor emissions?

/chickenlittle

sweetbmxrider
12-12-2012, 07:24 AM
We already have aftermarket pcms. EPA can suck it.

WildBillyT
12-12-2012, 07:29 AM
You guys are missing the point.

The USA EPA is "forcing" in an indirect manner of course a company based out of New Zealand to change their product. The ****ing EPA.

As pointed out above, EFIive, and HPtuners are pulling the ability to delete emissions stuff from increasing pressure from the EPA. Technically any unlocking of a factory PCM to mess with the tune is illegal as it circumvents factory emissions tuning, if you give a mouse a cookie...

And Bonzo, since we all can't afford new 5th gens, V's, or Vettes, your argument is rather silly, I own a old 4th gen, and its now being held to today's motor emissions?

/chickenlittle

Well, it basically comes down to this.

The EPA is trying to stop people from breaking federal law. A law that's been in place for a very long time. Probably since the mid 70's.

Now they finally have teeth I guess.

The fact that the diesel boys are the first to have trouble kind of shows who is the most flagrant in violation.

Matt, I know you love running D and such but the "rip out all the emissions stuff and roll coal" had a target on its back since day one. A lot of visible smoke has a tendency to piss people off.

LTb1ow
12-12-2012, 07:44 AM
No doubt, but its a knee jerk reaction..

IE.. soot is less harmful that the N0x levels produced, so my clean economy tune is soot free so to the prick in the prius, its fine, but, its actually worse than having a visibly "dirty" tune.

There has been talk of the EPA mandating equipment to be placed on early trucks that left the factory without em. Mid year 2005 had no EGR/cats... met federal regs so it was sold.

IDK, just worried how crazy the EPA will get with this, and then the whole ironic and quite laughable OBD2 emissions testing.

WildBillyT
12-12-2012, 07:50 AM
No doubt, but its a knee jerk reaction..

IE.. soot is less harmful that the N0x levels produced, so my clean economy tune is soot free so to the prick in the prius, its fine, but, its actually worse than having a visibly "dirty" tune.

There has been talk of the EPA mandating equipment to be placed on early trucks that left the factory without em. Mid year 2005 had no EGR/cats... met federal regs so it was sold.

IDK, just worried how crazy the EPA will get with this, and then the whole ironic and quite laughable OBD2 emissions testing.

A similar thing can be said about dB levels and mufflers.

Doesn't damage the environment but it pisses people off enough to make laws. And the Harley guys can brapp brapp brapp all day long.

Blackbirdws6
12-12-2012, 07:54 AM
Most people won't know the science of what you are referring to. As Bill mentioned, the visable smoke and soot is going to get more attention than invisible but very harmful alternatives. On somewhat a tangent, when I visited California, I was amazed at the smog level compared to NJ. It is no wonder they are the most forward thinking with regards to energy efficiency in the country. When its blatantly staring you in the face (similar to rolling coal), sensitivity skyrockets and actions are taken.

Focusing more on removing the irresponsible tuning group would be the ideal solution however the enforcement would be more time consuming and expensive. It's easier for them to ban the whole lot than to help the group mature.

BonzoHansen
12-12-2012, 09:00 AM
And Bonzo, since we all can't afford new 5th gens, V's, or Vettes, your argument is rather silly, I own a old 4th gen, and its now being held to today's motor emissions?

/chickenlittle
Last I looked your 4th gen is held to the standard of the model year. Did NJ law change? My point is in most cases you can make a car faster and still pass sniffer tests. The technology is there now.

No doubt, but its a knee jerk reaction..

IE.. soot is less harmful that the N0x levels produced, so my clean economy tune is soot free so to the prick in the prius, its fine, but, its actually worse than having a visibly "dirty" tune.

There has been talk of the EPA mandating equipment to be placed on early trucks that left the factory without em. Mid year 2005 had no EGR/cats... met federal regs so it was sold.

IDK, just worried how crazy the EPA will get with this, and then the whole ironic and quite laughable OBD2 emissions testing.

"less harmful" is a terrible argument. They have been regulating NOx for years – EGR. Last I read diesel particulates are quite tough to breathe especially if you have asthma. Half of Europe smells like a diesel ashtray due to their current disincentive system against gasoline.

Again, the current EPA is run by a zealot who is for all intensive purposes anti-anything that is not in line with her thinking, economics be damned. I don’t think they would be successful with retrofitting emissions parts on non-modified vehicles. But check out the hoops Californians have had to jump through for years on modifications. The GM eRod program was driven by it.

Dudbird113
12-12-2012, 03:04 PM
I like how kids roll coal when in all its actually bad. Like running your car really pig rich. For having an old 4th gen to make it pass emissions take it to a private garage. Mine they basically sticker slapped it haha. Guy started my car and went well this isnt gonna pass for sure. Epa can do w/e they want but comtroling emissions on diesels is hard. Anything over i think 11000 pounds or so ur truck becomes self inspecting. Theyre always be someone put there making "illegal parts" you just gotta know were to get em.

Paul Huryk
12-16-2012, 09:51 AM
Let's be real here - the EPA is an agency based on reaction, not proactive standards - the CARB board of CA is a state agency and they are pretty proactive. Then again, CA is a terrible place to have a hot rod of modern vintage due to all the CARB rules.

We luckily don't have the level of smog policing like we did under Gov Whitman (most people know all about the dyno emission tests of cars that shops invested in, then had to abandon). Then the POS gets to run the EPA after the worst emissions program disaster in recent history.

LTb1ow
01-17-2013, 04:57 PM
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/0f84561e0cf2ab7f85257af6006c4dbd?opendocument

Its funny cause while the DPF will keep the soot in the filter, once the DPF lights up, all goes out in the air.

sweetbmxrider
01-17-2013, 05:33 PM
:facepalm:

LTb1ow
01-17-2013, 05:36 PM
"When running, trucks without these types of controls leave behind a trail of dark, black smoke. "



Which is funny, cause, my truck didn't come factory with a DPF and it doesn't leave "behind a trail of dark, black smoke." And a dmax across the years, has not changed much at all. Stupid bureaucrats.

sweetbmxrider
01-17-2013, 05:38 PM
You just don't know bro. I like how they are offering a buyback but you are supposed to set it to factory tune. Sure, lulz.

LTb1ow
01-18-2013, 07:21 AM
And to be more clear, I think Dmax's got DPF late 2007 models.. so early 2007 trucks are the exact same tune/drivetrain but without DPF. Do not recall seeing any 50k trucks leaving a dealer lot rolling coal.

Stupid kids.

WSex
01-24-2013, 01:05 AM
as much as i love to roll coal etc etc. diesel NOx levels are harmful. yes, not as harmful as cow farts and hot rodders but still. all it takes is a person high up in the ladder to get ticked off by a black smoke infested intersection, or a friends death.
diesel fumes do cause cancer its sad. (eventhough thats only recognized in cali)
what im trying to say is it doesnt mean it was because of someone rolling coal. whatever reason the epa has im sure its a good one.

LTb1ow
01-24-2013, 07:20 AM
No, it was definitely due to the dumb ass kids in beat up old diesels "rolling coal" cause its hip and cool.

Argue all you want otherwise, but thats true.

BonzoHansen
01-24-2013, 10:04 AM
yes it is. they brought all this up to the top. that soot is a pollutant. how rolling coal became cool baffles me. then again so does jersey shore and honey boo boo. no accounting for stupid I guss

EPA does not need a reason they were being led by a zealot who is recently gone from that post. she was nuts

WildBillyT
01-24-2013, 10:10 AM
If it looks bad, it's bad. No reason to dig deeper. That's the MO in the USA these days.

How many idiots think a nuclear power plant is giving off smoke pollution?

sweetbmxrider
01-24-2013, 10:31 AM
The epa should be disbanded

BonzoHansen
01-24-2013, 11:49 AM
If it looks bad, it's bad. No reason to dig deeper. That's the MO in the USA these days.

How many idiots think a nuclear power plant is giving off smoke pollution?

steam vapors are a global warming gas

PolarBear
01-24-2013, 11:50 AM
steam vapors are a global warming gas

:rofl:

BonzoHansen
01-24-2013, 12:44 PM
i'm not kidding. surprised me too. water vapors are considered a greenhouse gas

PolarBear
01-24-2013, 01:01 PM
i'm not kidding. surprised me too. water vapors are considered a greenhouse gas

I understand that it is, but thats kind of asinine, uhh WTF do they think clouds are? :kneeslap:

The_Bishop
01-24-2013, 01:19 PM
"Politician" and "Science" are about as far apart as you can get.

WildBillyT
01-24-2013, 01:31 PM
I understand that it is, but thats kind of asinine, uhh WTF do they think clouds are? :kneeslap:

Apparently condensed pollution.