Carbon'd up valves

[MyFirstZ]

Good'ol BMW :lol:

This is coming out of a BMW 335xi, intake valves. The 335xi is the twin turbo 6cyl. this engine has tons of fuel issues and turbo issues. One of the cars I warn people about owning outside of warranty.

This car is getting a head for other reasons but I need to swap everything over and decided to show you guys some carbon build up that you will probably never see like this.

Car has 98k miles and has always been on time for schedules maintainence.
Exhaust valves are spotless.

I will soak these vavles in a combo of fuel system cleaners over night then take a soft wire brush to them before I lap them for the new head.

BTW this repair is about 12-14k $ out of pocket for a customer. This customer is getting lucky and its being goodwilled

one of the two from cylinder 6 intake valve
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_121259_444.jpgThis is after a few hours sitting in my concentrate and a light cleaning for those that aren't sure what they shoud look like
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_130835_046.jpg
Rushed the process, but all clean now
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_162728_617.jpg

a few other from bank 2 (cylinder 4 5 6)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_121316_804.jpg

A combo of carbon scrapped off from the 12 valves before soaking in some fuel rail cleaner and fuel system concoction that I make to clean valves.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_121829_659.jpg

Newly added

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_163514_396.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_163529_361.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_163612_794.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/myfirstcamaro/IMG_20121204_163551_186.jpg

Good for flow right ?

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

Good lord, what was the reasoning behind the excess carbon buildup?

[WildBillyT]

Holy crap. Did corporate say anything about it?

[MyFirstZ]

Haven't seen anything officially released yet but they definetly know about it. We have fixes for it without pulling the heads. But this one I can clean since its getting a new head anyway.

[The_Bishop]

Probably a good PM for something problematic like this is MMO in the tank at every fillup. Better still would be the factory owning up to a crap design that lets oil down the guides. Poor valve seal design is my guess.

Also: Good inexpensive cleaner for something like that? Knock off the big stuff and soak overnight in Pine Sol. You can also wire wheel that stuff off without hurting anything.

Edit -Forget the MMO, just remembered that this is a direct injection setup. MMO won't help. Still say it's a guide seal issue made worse due to the fact that you don't have fuel washing down the back of the valve.

[Stevoone]

Do BMW engines use direct injection? GM was/is having similar issues and from what I've heard it is caused by the Direct Injection setup. A normal fuel injection service that runs chemicals through the rail and injectors will not clean the the valves on a direct inject engine because the fuel gets sprayed straight into the cylinder and not past the valves.

[Mark B]

Doesnt going WOT from time to time keep this from happening? I utilize this method on all of my cars. lol

[MyFirstZ]

Yeah these motors are direct injection so anything introduced into the fuel will bypass the valves. I don't know if it is valve seals or just oil consumption through the turbos (excess crank case)

[The_Bishop]

From a little research, it seems to be a combination of factors. You have oil getting down the guides, which in small amounts is unavoidable/necessary for lubrication of the guides. You also have oil in the crankcase vent vapors.

These aren't cheap cars, and having to shell out a couple hundred bucks every 20k-30k miles to clean it up would piss me right off.

[Jersey Mike]

How do you always end up doing carbon cleanings on heads? :lol:


That's night & day, man!

[MyFirstZ]

Alot of oil in the crankcase vapors and when the oil seperator is in the valve cover and very difficult to know when it fails.

To top it off the previous dealer he went to said his consumption was normal. But it was due to excess crank case pressure from the seperator failing. So its getting a new valve cover to aid that along with new valve seals. The car will be a top whens its done.

Never seen one motor with so many and such costly problems

HA couple hundred ! Most of it would be covered under warranty to remove the intake and blast em

But its probably closer to a grand minimum to blast em customer pay.

[The_Bishop]

A grand? That would result the car being placed back in the dealer showroom via the front windows. What a POS.

[maroman88]

mother of godddd

[MyFirstZ]

labor @ 150$/hr adds up very quickly

[DaSkinnyGuy]

Son, that right there is job security. :mrgreen:

[Blacdout96]

Mini coopers with the d.I engines are having the exact same problem.

[MyFirstZ]

probably identical components and system

[sweetbmxrider]

Not bad....

[198esp1]

toyota had the same issue on 88-92 tercels, they would carbon up a little worse than the one valve you pictured. That recall paid for my first house :nod:

[Grifter]

Geeeeeez. Cadillac isn't any better...

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/Grifter371/IMG_2794.jpg

[The_Bishop]

What? Isn't that the special canted valve performance option?

[V]

was that the early cadillac 3.6 with bad timing chain?

[Stevoone]

I pulled bent valves like that out of a NorthStar with 12k miles. I also had a 3.6 with a shattered valve, blew a hole straight through the piston. I wanted to tear it apart to get a better look but GM wanted it back untouched.

Only valves I've seen loaded with carbon have been on the DI engines. IMO the gasoline flow on a normal engine helps keep the valves clean. I also think it has something to do with the VVT exhaust scavenging in place of a conventional egr system

[DaSkinnyGuy]

Is any of the fuel problems because of the ethanol used in our gasoline?

[Z28 Heritage]

I pulled bent valves like that out of a NorthStar with 12k miles. I also had a 3.6 with a shattered valve, blew a hole straight through the piston. I wanted to tear it apart to get a better look but GM wanted it back untouched.

Only valves I've seen loaded with carbon have been on the DI engines. IMO the gasoline flow on a normal engine helps keep the valves clean. I also think it has something to do with the VVT exhaust scavenging in place of a conventional egr systemGood old Northstar hating haha its a great motor but with piss poor problems.

[Stevoone]

Good old Northstar hating haha its a great motor but with piss poor problems.

I don't mind working on them anymore. Could be worse, I'd work on Northstars all day if I could avoid seeing another Catera.

[Grifter]

was that the early cadillac 3.6 with bad timing chain?

Yup. Those were from a 2005 STS with a broken chain. I must of jinxed myself cause I just got a 2012 CTS Coupe with no compression in cylinder 4...

I don't mind working on them anymore. Could be worse, I'd work on Northstars all day if I could avoid seeing another Catera.

Amen. I have a Catera staring at me right now that is kicking my ass.

[LTb1ow]

dat soot
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/psyco66/Picture010-1.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/psyco66/Picture012-2.jpg

[Z28 Heritage]

I don't mind working on them anymore. Could be worse, I'd work on Northstars all day if I could avoid seeing another Catera.I hate Catera's! That's why i went the Northstar route. Great motor good power and i love the sound of em on WOT.

[sweetbmxrider]

Cateras :shudder:

[Jersey Mike]

While on the subject of Catera's: The first generation "Catera Touring Sedan" wasn't D.I., IIRC... just a 2.8L & 3.6L V6s with VVT. I know the 3.2L was the Opel motor, and had it's quirks, but how how do you mechanics & techs feel about the 2.8 & 3.6 VVT motors in 04-07 CTSes?

[MyFirstZ]

What car is that LTblow?

[LTb1ow]

EGR valve off a Duramax

[WildBillyT]

Regret rolling coal now?

[The_Bishop]

Choked up diesel junker, I see no problem.







:moon:


:kneeslap:

[LTb1ow]

Regret rolling coal now?

Not my truck and AFAIK that was off a high mileage, 300k+ stock motor. EGR systems combined with a PCV system FTL.

[Grifter]

While on the subject of Catera's: The first generation "Catera Touring Sedan" wasn't D.I., IIRC... just a 2.8L & 3.6L V6s with VVT. I know the 3.2L was the Opel motor, and had it's quirks, but how how do you mechanics & techs feel about the 2.8 & 3.6 VVT motors in 04-07 CTSes?

They didn't start DI until recently, last 4-5 years. No Catera had DI, just 2.8 and 3.2's.

I'll work on new(new to me is 04-up) CTS's all day.

[Jersey Mike]

Good to hear! Considering getting back into a 1st gen V6 CTS as a replacement DD. I think outside of timing chain issues/maintenance, the 3.6L was pretty safe. The 3.2L had CPS-related no start nightmares, but I haven't heard much about the 2.8L as far as reliability. I don't want to get this derailed (because those pictures MyFirstZ posted are absurd, and I'm hoping he'll follow up after the new head is installed), but have you heard of, or experienced any reoccurring issues with those cars? If so, I'd like to take this to PMs when you have time.

[BonzoHansen]

Not my truck and AFAIK that was off a high mileage, 300k+ stock motor. EGR systems combined with a PCV system FTL.

yes terrible for 300,000 miles lol

[Grifter]

If so, I'd like to take this to PMs when you have time.

PM sent.

Update on the Bimmer?

[MyFirstZ]

Finished already. Car runs like a top. Think the customer picked up today. Was done yesterday morning.

Just wanted to show the valves and head. All the valve train was swapped over to a brand new stock head. Didn't think it was picture worthy lol sorry

[Mezzy]

Nice

[MyFirstZ]

Again fuel treatment will not work on valves like this.

Its direct injection. The fuel is squirt right into the combustion chamber instead of the intake port so the valves will not see any fuel or cleaner.

[Stevoone]

Higher octane fuel does not increase power or reduce the amount of carbon buildup. The higher octane rating is related to the fuels ability to avoid predetination in higher performance or forced induction engines. If the manufacturer of your car recommends regular, running premium will offer no benefit. However if you run regular in a car recommended to run on premium you could cause issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

When I had my 04 Ram (mid grade fuel was recommended) the owners manual actually said use of premium fuel is not necessary and continued use may cause adverse affects to performance and mileage.

[12secondv6]

A simple nitrous system would clear that carbon build up nicely :)

[MyFirstZ]

I did the next best thing. Replace the head lol

[sweetbmxrider]

Higher octane fuel does not increase power or reduce the amount of carbon buildup. The higher octane rating is related to the fuels ability to avoid predetination in higher performance or forced induction engines. If the manufacturer of your car recommends regular, running premium will offer no benefit. However if you run regular in a car recommended to run on premium you could cause issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

When I had my 04 Ram (mid grade fuel was recommended) the owners manual actually said use of premium fuel is not necessary and continued use may cause adverse affects to performance and mileage.

I think that most premium fuels have a little more detergent in them so that could probably help the slightest bit in carbon build up. The fact that this is a direct injection engine makes his post quite funny though :kneeslap:

[NJ Torque]

Wow, you guys get the tough jobs... we would just R&R a new longblock for anything like this...

[Stevoone]

The fact that this is a direct injection engine makes his post quite funny though :kneeslap:

Not sure if that was directed at my post or at Mezzy. Earlier in the thread I also noted that there is no fuel flow past the valves on a DI engine so conventional fuel system treatments are useless in DI applications for valve deposits. My last post was just a response to Mezzy's comment about only running premium grade fuels.

[MyFirstZ]

I think it was directed at mezzy.

My diagnosis for the head actually had nothing to do with the carbon build up. This was just something I knew was going to be resolved as well.

That being said it was not warranty. After replacement they authorized good will but regardless the car did not need a long block. Leak down and compression where both ok.

[Mezzy]

Thanks

[MyFirstZ]

Well this motor the twin turbo straight 6 (n54) has had revisions but the newest motor hasn't had any issues yet that we have seen at the dealer level.

PS the newer motor is a straight six single twin scroll turbo (n55)

[Mezzy]

Cool. I know all about turbo engines having had a ton...of Grand Nationals throughout the 90's, lol

[sweetbmxrider]

Not sure if that was directed at my post or at Mezzy. Earlier in the thread I also noted that there is no fuel flow past the valves on a DI engine so conventional fuel system treatments are useless in DI applications for valve deposits. My last post was just a response to Mezzy's comment about only running premium grade fuels.

I think it was directed at mezzy.

Si amigo.

[MyFirstZ]

Lol you will get used the harshness around here. Don't talk it to personel

Now that I think about it BMW doesn't have a non turbo production car except for the M3 which next year should be the new unvailing of a turbo m3 in the latest model

[Mezzy]

Ok, but some of them are awful rude. I find lots of people on forums don't really even know what they talking about so I laugh at them instead of getting upset. It's their cars that look and run the way they do, while mine remain the types of cars they only dream of owning lol. Life truly is rewarding.

[The_Bishop]

So, aside from being careful you don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, I don't recall seeing pictures of this 'sweet ride' of yours.

[sweetbmxrider]

Ok, but some of them are awful rude. I find lots of people on forums don't really even know what they talking about so I laugh at them instead of getting upset. It's their cars that look and run the way they do, while mine remain the types of cars they only dream of owning lol. Life truly is rewarding.

Yeah, we get that a lot here too. People talking about fuel system cleaners for DI, stock spoiler interchanging, and being the cool dude with the loudest car on the block. Your neighbors aren't staring because they hate how obnoxious it is, not at all :lol:

[Mezzy]

No comprendae

[sweetbmxrider]

This forum is not like others I belong to. Here, people talk down to you when they probably never would face to face. Just alittle disappointed in the mentality here. I posted one of my rides which I did all the work to on my avatar so you can see I'm not a liar in any sense of the word. I just can't get over the rude way people speak here in general. I don't know how to post pics up on this forum or I would for sure. But ill definitley be spending less time here than the other forums i belong to for that very reason.

We told you about photobucket, try it out. Usually the way you present yourself deems the treatment you receive. Its a solid group of guys here and most any one of them is willing to help another out. How you carry yourself and partake in it all is up to you. We definitely have our fun too and hazing the new guy is a fun one. If you can't handle it, that's your deal.

[sweetbmxrider]

And stop with the edits, stand by what you say! Everyone has feelings, feel free to express them!

[NastyEllEssWon]

So, aside from being careful you don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, I don't recall seeing pictures of this 'sweet ride' of yours.



im going to put my money on 18 year old kid playing make believe on here :D

[MyFirstZ]

Can we stay on topic of the thread. Rather it die then continue with this ****

[WSex]

Can we stay on topic of the thread. Rather it die then continue with this ****

yes anyways direct injection is the way to go. give it some more time and it will be all you see. probably even pwm injector firing like diesels.


edit* pwm= pulse width modulation
also known as pdm = p duration m

[sweetbmxrider]

No comprendae

Tu espanol es no bueno amigo.

[rickyd13]

Just look how long i been dealing with it

[sweetbmxrider]

You mean just look how long we've been putting up with it :lol:

[LTb1ow]

yes anyways direct injection is the way to go. give it some more time and it will be all you see. probably even pwm injector firing like diesels.


edit* pwm= pulse width modulation
also known as pdm = p duration m

Eh, gasoline is limited in terms of how high a pressure they can crank the rail up to.

And soon, you all shall know the pain of $1400 injector sets. :lol:

[MyFirstZ]

Our rail pressures are somewhere at 160bar at idle on the mechanical high pressure pumps running on the extra cam lobe. 160 bar is about 2300 psi

I don't think our injectors are to much about 150-200 ea. but they sell for extended list do about double

[WSex]

imagine that, 30,000 psi on a gas job

[Featherburner]

Our rail pressures are somewhere at 160bar at idle on the mechanical high pressure pumps running on the extra cam lobe. 160 bar is about 2300 psi

I don't think our injectors are to much about 150-200 ea. but they sell for extended list do about doubleSo $1200 to $1600 for a set of 8 like Matt said.

[WSex]

1* 5.9l cummins 100hp injector is 400$

stock is 290 per injector

[MyFirstZ]

If you are doing a v8 but most of the issues are in the 6

[Mezzy]

I'll stand by this...I came on here and have takin abuse for nothing!! That's how you welcome a new guy? And any form of hazingg is illegal!! This forum strictly prohibits illegal activity!!

[Mezzy]

Wheres the moderator now?

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

Having people correct factual information in this thread isn't hazing.

Don't feel singled out, it's how old guys get treated too :lol:

[WSex]

the creator of this thread asked us to stay on topic. please do so if not contact a moderator through pm. id contac mike he's the nicest one and most sympathetic.
back on subject whats the flow on those bmw injectors?

[MyFirstZ]

I have no idea and I don't know if it is even rated the same way 8/

[Blacdout96]

I don't even know why you took off the heads to clean the valves and ports. Could of saved a lot of time by dumping shot peen down the intake while the cars running. Cleans the crap AND strengthens the valve train and piston/cylinder walls!!































If your gullible enough to believe this.......