View Full Version : Rear rebuilt wines just as loud as before.
Just had my 12bolt rebuilt. New Motive 4:11's all new bearings, and a lightly used posi I purchased off of Deadtrend. Its still as loud as it was before they set it up ear piercing when cruising at 50. Gear issue or installer?
Just had my 12bolt rebuilt. New Motive 4:11's all new bearings, and a lightly used posi I purchased off of Deadtrend. Its still as loud as it was before they set it up ear piercing when cruising at 50. Gear issue or installer?
installer
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 12:56 PM
installer
Yup.
On accel? Decel? Cruising? All the time?
Yup.
On accel? Decel? Cruising? All the time?
Crusing and decel.
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 01:17 PM
Did you call the place that did it? Sounds like maybe a pinion bearing preload or backlash issue.
Did you call the place that did it? Sounds like maybe a pinion bearing preload or backlash issue.
Yes they said they set the backlash alittle loose at .010, motive recommends .007-.009. Didnt ask about the bearing pre-load, although they did replace them. Its ear piercing at 50mph cruise.
Slow-V6
03-14-2013, 02:27 PM
So they set the backlash out of spec of what the manufacture says? What about a Drive shaft causing the whine? Were the bearings on the carrier replaced as well as the bearings at the end of the Axle tubes?
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 02:34 PM
Yes they said they set the backlash alittle loose at .010, motive recommends .007-.009. Didnt ask about the bearing pre-load, although they did replace them. Its ear piercing at 50mph cruise.
Did they use a new crush sleeve, pinion nut, etc?
Slow-V6
03-14-2013, 02:40 PM
I also heard if you dont locktite the Pinion nut they can back out as well.
Did they use a new crush sleeve, pinion nut, etc?
All new except the pinion nut.
Screw it Im ordering a 9in housing tomorrow Im sick of 12 bolts, Ill get the housing and then the center once I sell this 12 bolt.
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 03:29 PM
What? Why not go back to the guy who did it and have him fix it?
What? Why not go back to the guy who did it and have him fix it?
He said its the way the gears are cut since I got motive performance gears, even tho I swear I bought street gears. Reading into it it seems Motive has gone to crap in the past 3 years since moving production from US to China.
I also supplied all the parts too so they cant warranty them.
donnj
03-14-2013, 03:34 PM
what Bill said !!!!!! ASAP
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 03:41 PM
He said its the way the gears are cut since I got motive performance gears, even tho I swear I bought street gears. Reading into it it seems Motive has gone to crap in the past 3 years since moving production from US to China.
I also supplied all the parts too so they cant warranty them.
That's ********. He can't warranty the parts, fine, but this is a labor issue. Gears should not "howl" very loudly at 50mph.
Did he mention a break-in period for the gears? I'm guessing no.
No he did not. Im gonna call again tomorrow. I went to Kaspers Korner in Clementon.
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 03:44 PM
No he did not. Im gonna call again tomorrow.
Before you throw it in a river with cinder blocks tied to the axle shafts, do that and see what he says.
The no-break in thing should always be a huge red flag (unless it's a drag or circle track setup).
Before you throw it in a river with cinder blocks tied to the axle shafts, do that and see what he says.
The no-break in thing should always be a huge red flag (unless it's a drag or circle track setup).
How do you even break it in. I called once already because the kids at the desk just handed me the paper work took my money and said nothing. The guy on the phone seemed pretty cool but seemed more interested in doing unrelated work to my car. I just drove it in traffic for about 10 mins then let it sit then drove for another 10 min and havnt driven it since.
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 03:49 PM
Better than I can write:
Do we really need to break in a new gear set? I have heard many people say "When I bought my new truck, no one ever told me to break in the ring & pinion." Whenever we are blessed enough to afford a new vehicle, we take it easy on the engine for the first few hundred miles. While we are pampering the engine (probably for the last time ever), the ring & pinion set goes along for the ride and gets a chance to break in before we hammer the throttle.
In most stock vehicles with stock tires there is seldom a risk of a burned gear set. For those of us who modify and use our trucks, there many situations that can contribute to burned gear syndrome. Motorhomes, towing, tall tires, and high numeric gear ratios (4.56 & up) can all generate a lot of heat and cause the gear oil to break down. The greatest damage to a new gear set results from running for ten minutes or more during the first 500 miles when the oil is very hot. Any heavy use or overloading while the oil is extremely hot will cause it to break down and allow irreversible damage to the ring & pinion.
In order to make them run cooler and quieter, new gears are lapped at the factory. However, they are not lapped under the same pressures that driving creates. The loads generated while driving force any microscopic high spots on the gear teeth back into the surface of the metal. This is called "work hardening". Work hardening is similar to forging in the way that it compresses the metal molecules into a very compact and hard formation. This can only be accomplished if the metal surfaces are lubricated and the gear temperature stays cool enough that the molecular structure does not change. If the temperature of the metal gets hot enough to change the molecular structure, it will soften the surface instead of hardening it. This may seen like a balancing act, but it all happens easily and passively as long as the oil keeps the gear cool while it is breaking in. Some of the synthetic oils on the market today can help a gear set live longer. I've had great success with Red Line ®, Torco ®, and Richmond Gear ® synthetic gear oils. These oils will continue to lubricate at temperatures where many crude oils break down.
Even with synthetic oils, I still recommend the following procedure for breaking in a new gear set: After driving the first 15 to 20 miles, stop and let the differential cool before proceeding. Keep the vehicle at speeds below 60 mph for the first 100 miles. I also recommend putting at least 500 miles on the new gear set before heavy use or towing. During the first 45 miles of towing, it helps to go about 15 miles at a time before stopping to let the differential cool for 15 minutes before continuing. This is necessary because not all of the gear tooth is making contact until it is heavily loaded. When towing, the teeth flex to contact completely, and cause the previously unloaded portion of the teeth to touch and work harden. It is very easy to damage the ring & pinion by overloading before the teeth are broken-in. If you take it easy on a new ring & pinion and keep it full of high quality oil, it will last a lot longer.
With regards to limited slip additives, I have found that using too much additive can lead to premature gear wear. Use just enough to keep the limited slip from chattering but not more than 4 oz for every 2 qts of oil. It is a good idea to change the gear oil after the first 500 miles in order to remove any metal particles or phosphorus coating that has come from the new gear set. This is cheap insurance and a good time to discover any problems before they grow too big.
Moser says to use non-synthetic fluid. Its also 85w-90 would a heavier fluid help.
WildBillyT
03-14-2013, 04:07 PM
I do not think so.
I run 75w90 in my 9".
Dudbird113
03-14-2013, 04:31 PM
Ur supposed to break in ur rear if u put all new bearing in such in. Im running 140w85 i believe in my 10 bolt. Yukon supposedly makes some good gears
Ur supposed to break in ur rear if u put all new bearing in such in. Im running 140w85 i believe in my 10 bolt. Yukon supposedly makes some good gears
140w85? :shock:
Ur supposed to break in ur rear if u put all new bearing in such in. Im running 140w85 i believe in my 10 bolt. Yukon supposedly makes some good gears
140w85? :shock:
same thing as concrete..
Dudbird113
03-14-2013, 05:20 PM
140wsomething. Lucas makes it. Richmond recommended their heavy gear oil which was synthetic which my posi doesnt like
BonzoHansen
03-14-2013, 06:20 PM
i am assuming he means something like 75W-140 which IIRC ford trucks use. I don't think that is what GM specs call for.
Dudbird113
03-14-2013, 09:34 PM
Yep i had it backwards its 85w140, sorry fellas
Slow-V6
03-15-2013, 11:37 AM
Did they add posi additive Mike? Doesnt the Eatons take a Posi Additive? Did he take your car out for a test drive after the intall?
@Jeff yes, and yes. Its not a posi issue no friction modifier would cause clutch chatter not whine.
Could the back lash being alittle loose be causing this noise.
After a few heat cycles it isnt as loud, still loudest at 50mph, but havnt had it over that since the install.
Slow-V6
03-15-2013, 11:55 AM
I am in agreement with everyone else. The Rear should be quiet after its been rebuilt. After launching on it with a sticky tire then I can see it starting to get noisy but to be as noisy as it was before the rebuild then something is very wrong. Granted I had only 10 bolts but have had a 3.23, 3.42, 3,73, and 4.10 rears and they were all quiet. Some would start to howl @ 70 but only after a couple 1000 miles on them and some N20 runs @ the track. Still it was very tollorable and if I didnt point it out to someone you could not really hear it over the exhaust. What you have described Mike sounds like when my Axle bearing went out at the track and I had to drive the 80 miles back home to Va Beach. That was a very loud howling from 50mph on and would go away when I let off the gas.
My 4.10's were Richmond gears, and the 3.42's and 3.73's were Motive. My 3.73's made the most noise out of all, and the 4.10's were the quietest.
Does your 12 bolt have a T/A cover? If so could those bolts be pushing on the carrier caps to hard causing the whine?
Dudbird113
03-15-2013, 01:28 PM
My richmonds 3.73s only make noise on decel. I know when i set mine my backlash was alittle lose. Ive launched my 10 bolt countless times on slicks in the summer.
Its a hit or miss with gears some will be noisey other not. If you paid someone to install them have them redo it or take it to another shop.
Jersey Mike
03-15-2013, 01:31 PM
Im gonna call again tomorrow. I went to Kaspers Korner in Clementon.
Well?
Well?
Im pretty convinced its the gears. Talked to him, and took my dad for a ride in the car, he thinks its the gears as well.
Slow-V6
03-16-2013, 07:27 AM
So you got your rear end rebuilt because U needed a new posi, and it whined like a mofo and now after being rebuilt it still whines like a mofo? You and I were talking about this on facebook that you were saying the rear should not whine. You also told me that Motive used crappy Richmond gears and they dont properly set up the rears in the factory! Now you have used better gears and had a local shop set it up "properly" and it still whines just as loud. To me something is not adding up. It will be hard to sell a 12bolt that is not properly setup or that has a $hitty set of gears in it.
How about popping off the rear end cover and putting that while grease on the gear and turning your wheels? At least then you can see the gear wear pattern and that might help you in telling if they are setup correctly?
So you got your rear end rebuilt because U needed a new posi, and it whined like a mofo and now after being rebuilt it still whines like a mofo? You and I were talking about this on facebook that you were saying the rear should not whine. You also told me that Motive used crappy Richmond gears and they dont properly set up the rears in the factory! Now you have used better gears and had a local shop set it up "properly" and it still whines just as loud. To me something is not adding up. It will be hard to sell a 12bolt that is not properly setup or that has a $hitty set of gears in it.
How about popping off the rear end cover and putting that while grease on the gear and turning your wheels? At least then you can see the gear wear pattern and that might help you in telling if they are setup correctly?
I purchased Motives because someone recommended them, they were made in the US but have switched production to china in the past few years and gone down hill. Its not nearly as loud after I put it thru a few heat cycles loudest at about 50 still tho.
grazi
03-16-2013, 10:36 AM
I purchased Motives because someone recommended them, they were made in the US but have switched production to china in the past few years and gone down hill. Its not nearly as loud after I put it thru a few heat cycles loudest at about 50 still tho.
Are you still trying to sell it or are you keeping it now?
BarneyMobile
03-16-2013, 11:31 AM
I bet the pinion depth is wrong. Pinion depth has more to do with gear wear pattern and noise. They probably just reused the old pinion shim and didn't bother to check pinion depth because its a PITA to press the pinion bearing on and off to get the right pinion shim. Do as Jeff said and check the wear pattern. BTW, my 4.11's in my 9 inch were noisey from day one, not ear piercing loud, just abit noisey.
it has a crush collar. If iirc they dont use both, correct?
The_Bishop
03-17-2013, 09:11 AM
You still need shims to set the pinion depth, crush collar or no.
Just checked my gear pattern, nice contact patch on the middle of the tooth drive and coast sides.
BarneyMobile
03-24-2013, 08:15 AM
Take a picture of both sides of the ring gear teeth.
Well I brought it back to them to replace the pinion seal which was leaking already. I laid into it in gear to about half throttle a something let loose in the rear. Best way to describe it is it sounds like a turkey being put into a meat grinder alive on decel and metal on metal during cruise. Its now being lit on fire in the street infront of my house.
so... free for anyone to come get it?
Blackbirdws6
03-27-2013, 05:37 AM
So they did nothing else to address the existing noise?
LTb1ow
03-27-2013, 06:30 AM
Offer still stands at $500 for it.
I rolled te gear pattern and it looks fine..I never saw u made an offer.
LTb1ow
03-27-2013, 01:07 PM
I rolled te gear pattern and it looks fine..I never saw u made an offer.
Some admin deleted it
WildBillyT
03-27-2013, 01:15 PM
Well I brought it back to them to replace the pinion seal which was leaking already. I laid into it in gear to about half throttle a something let loose in the rear. Best way to describe it is it sounds like a turkey being put into a meat grinder alive on decel and metal on metal during cruise. Its now being lit on fire in the street infront of my house.
Raise hell. You got taken.
Raise hell. You got taken.
I told then the whole rear end of the car felt loose after I got it back from them I believe the axle bolts backed out because tge wheels ate wobbling
WildBillyT
03-27-2013, 01:52 PM
They ****ed up your rear, end of story. It appears that you have a myriad of things that are not right. Might be something like not torquing the carrier caps down enough and everything moved around.
Who knows. But they need to step up. You may catch hell for opening it up.
Just got off the phone with them he said that he was being nice by putting the pinion seal in for free and that it wouldn't screw anything up. And that its the used parts and that hes built rears for 4000hp cars. He seems to think uts the used spider gears in the posi
Dudbird113
03-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Maybe when they replaced the seal they didnt set the right preload.
Lol and i build rears for 5000hp cars. What shop did the work?
Tru2Chevy
03-27-2013, 04:54 PM
What shop did the work?
I went to Kaspers Korner in Clementon.
- Justin
Maybe when they replaced the seal they didnt set the right preload.
Lol and i build rears for 5000hp cars. What shop did the work?
They removed it pinion nut with an impact and put it back on with an impact. But replacing a pinion seal wolnt mess anything up.
I provided all the parts all new except the eaton posi I bought which I bought lightly used off of deadtrend1. The shop had to swap the spiders out of the old one because the new one was the wrong spline. Hes saying the spider gears failed because they are used.
They removed it pinion nut with an impact and put it back on with an impact. But replacing a pinion seal wolnt mess anything up.
I provided all the parts all new except the eaton posi I bought which I bought lightly used off of deadtrend1. The shop had to swap the spiders out of the old one because the new one was the wrong spline. Hes saying the spider gears failed because they are used.
They used parts out of the known broken diff? And charged money for this service?
Tru2Chevy
03-27-2013, 06:12 PM
Wasn't it their idea to take the spiders out of your broken diff and install them in the one you bought from Tim?
- Justin
Yes and they had me call eaton to makesure it would work before they did it.
They used parts out of the known broken diff? And charged money for this service?
Just the spider gears nothing else. And yes they charged me $150 to swap the spider gears from the old posi to the new posi.
LTb1ow
03-27-2013, 06:55 PM
$400 and a 10 bolt
Not interested in your 10 bolt.
sweetbmxrider
03-28-2013, 07:21 AM
Dude, you got hosed. Cut your losses, save some bucks, then go somewhere that knows what the **** they are doing.
Called another shop and they want $900 to reset the gears and install new bearings. They seem to think the pinion bearing is shot from him swapping the pinion seal and putting the pinion nut back on with a gun...the 9in housing is slightly more then that so you can probably guess what route Im going...after the way the guy talked to me on the phone I realized it would just end up in a screaming match.
WildBillyT
03-28-2013, 09:06 AM
Called another shop and they want $900 to reset the geats and install new bearings. They seem to think the pinion bearing is shot from him swapping the pinion seal and putting the pinion nut back on woth a gun...the 9in housing is slightly more then that so you cab probavly guess what route im going...after the way the guy talked to me on the phone I realized it would end up in a screaming match.
Does the $900 include all new internal parts?
Does the $900 include all new internal parts?
Nope, bearing kit. Its a shop I trust, and hes ALWAYS expensive the reason I did not go to him in the first place. He said the pinion bearing is probably burnout from the other shop putting the pinion nut on with an impact gun and screwing up the bearing preload/crush collar.
Slow-V6
03-31-2013, 10:20 PM
You watched him put the nut on with a impact or did he tell you he did? Did he warn you not to use the old spider gears?
Tru2Chevy
03-31-2013, 10:26 PM
Did he warn you not to use the old spider gears?
Wasn't it their idea to take the spiders out of your broken diff and install them in the one you bought from Tim?
- Justin
Yes and they had me call eaton to makesure it would work before they did it.
- Justin
You watched him put the nut on with a impact or did he tell you he did? Did he warn you not to use the old spider gears?
Yes I was sitting in the waiting room watching thru the window
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