Wheel Question

[LTb1ow]

In theory, why (or not) couldn't you take a acorn style lug wheel, drill out the countersinks and run shanks through them?

Other than a "no, thats dumb" answer please.

[sweetbmxrider]

You'd need the shank depth to be correct and it would have to be drilled correctly, not just by hand as I highly doubt you will get it centered, but I vote Yay!

[Paul Huryk]

Are you referring to a BMW like arrangement?

[LTb1ow]

You'd need the shank depth to be correct and it would have to be drilled correctly, not just by hand as I highly doubt you will get it centered, but I vote Yay!

Yea, bridgeport will pwn that, not concerned with pattern etc.

Are you referring to a BMW like arrangement?

No, this would be a GM wheel that had the stud holes messed up and I figured I could drill em wider then use a shank.

Another idea would be to attempt to use the wheel inserts.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRuDoLOEnZPXH3DiMrC8cf15k4VVVZuO K4vtwxWCg2jkeirqpww

Would just require a correct reamer size and some fancy press work.

[LTb1ow]

Nothing?

Usually I get at least remarks on how dumb I am.

[PolarBear]

Nothing?

Usually I get at least remarks on how dumb I am.

You specifically said NOT to say how dumb you were. I guess people actually listened this time.

[LTb1ow]

You specifically said NOT to say how dumb you were. I guess people actually listened this time.

Valid point, but that doesn't mean I don't want some logical reasoning as to why its not a good plan.

GM wheels are lug centric, so where is the difference between running an acorn or shank I guess...?

Honestly, for $160 from Jegs I can get a crappy repo wheel, which is much less than my time spent on the mill at work, just curious.

[PolarBear]

Valid point, but that doesn't mean I don't want some logical reasoning as to why its not a good plan.

GM wheels are lug centric, so where is the difference between running an acorn or shank I guess...?

Honestly, for $160 from Jegs I can get a crappy repo wheel, which is much less than my time spent on the mill at work, just curious.

GM Wheels are hub centric. The lugs really just hold the wheel onto the hub.

[LTb1ow]

GM Wheels are hub centric. The lugs really just hold the wheel onto the hub.

Everything I have read states Fbods are lug centric not hub. :?:

[PolarBear]

Everything I have read states Fbods are lug centric not hub. :?:

All the GM wheels I have are hub centric. My GTA wheels are hub, my Ronal R15's are hub, my truck are hub, the Camaro are hub. They fit very tightly to the hub and in a lot of cases the wheel needs a good whack to get them un-seated off the hub. Where are you reading that?

[LTb1ow]

All the GM wheels I have are hub centric. My GTA wheels are hub, my Ronal R15's are hub, my truck are hub, the Camaro are hub. They fit very tightly to the hub and in a lot of cases the wheel needs a good whack to get them un-seated off the hub. Where are you reading that?

Found a couple posts by Adam stating that they are, but it seems to go either way. I was under the impression that they were lug centric.

If they are hub centric, then as long as the retaining lug remains tight, the wheel should work fine..?

[The_Bishop]

Possibly, but there's probably some sound engineering reason why it's not done that way.

I would think it's a combination of the hub and and acorn seating arrangement that keeps the lug pulled straight in 'tension', even when the wheel is being torqued by the acceleration (or braking) of the vehicle. Otherwise there might be shearing forces at work, which the lugs are not designed for.

Again, I'm no engineer; I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

[PolarBear]

If they are hub centric, then as long as the retaining lug remains tight, the wheel should work fine..?

With my Ronals on my Camaro I ran the lug centric and I didn't have any issue, but I was really just cruising on the street. I don't know that I would feel comfortable if I was on the track without the hub centric ring in there.

[WildBillyT]

Valid point, but that doesn't mean I don't want some logical reasoning as to why its not a good plan.

GM wheels are lug centric, so where is the difference between running an acorn or shank I guess...?

Honestly, for $160 from Jegs I can get a crappy repo wheel, which is much less than my time spent on the mill at work, just curious.

Street or race use?

Assuming street:

FWIW my Greg Welds are freaking washer-centric. Personally I think you could do it. Given your setup I wouldn't race on them, but for around town I don't know if it would be an issue.

[LTb1ow]

This would be for the front wheel on my car, so no crazy launch stresses etc. So, if the wheel was truly hub centric, and aligned with the hub then a shank to pull it in tight would be the same as a acorn IF the wheel had precisely drilled holes for the bolt pattern..?

Otherwise, the pattern just needs to be tight concentrically to the OD of the wheel so that it doesn't wobble I assume IF the wheel is lug centric. Cause at that point the wheel is aligned to the wheel hub via lugs.

I mean, my pro stars are def not hub centric and they work just fine with shanks pulling them on tight and aligning them... think thats standard with all drag wheels.

I am purely just curious with all this, so any and all information is gladly welcomed.

[sweetbmxrider]

Like I said via sms text, everyone told me the 10 spokes are lug centric. The lt1 rear axle hubs are a larger diameter than the ls1 wheel styles have. I ground the center out till it slipped on and off fine then tightened it down and never had an issue, neither did you.

Now my simple mind's thoughts on this, acorns taper to center the wheel over the studs and exert outward force on the wheel through the taper while shanks pass through the wheel at a tight tolerance and exert clamping force through the washer behind the lug nut and hub/axle face. Now looking over my shoulder, a heavy duty dump truck has lug nuts with washers that push against the face of the rim, they do not pass through the wheel. This would make it a hub centric wheel while I think both of the others I mentioned first would be lug centric. This is only speaking from my hands on experience and not dealing with custom or aftermarket wheels that may do things differently.

[Dudbird113]

My racestars are hubcentric (same with my 5 spoke ta ones) they even include a plastic adapter ring that makes it the same size as my hub.

[BonzoHansen]

how far do you have to drill to fix the damage? How much material is left?

How much is a replacement rim?

[LTb1ow]

how far do you have to drill to fix the damage? How much material is left?

How much is a replacement rim?

I am not sure, as this is mainly an information gathering attempt. I will be examining the wheel with the machinist at work on Monday.

Replacement rim is prob going to be pricey as it is a GM ZR1 rim, but a repo is ~170 bucks.

Next question is if anyone knows a wheel repair place that will sell me the steel inserts. I can find em online but min $30 order and at like .87 a piece, I don't need that many :rofl:

[sweetbmxrider]

My racestars are hubcentric (same with my 5 spoke ta ones) they even include a plastic adapter ring that makes it the same size as my hub.

5 spoke abs wheels?

[Dudbird113]

5 spoke abs wheels?

Yep, idk why gm had a fetish with putting abs center caps on their wheels

[sweetbmxrider]

Yep, idk why gm had a fetish with putting abs center caps on their wheels

It was the 90s but how do you figure its hub centric?

[sweetbmxrider]

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/wheels-tires-49/wheel-tire-faq-general-topics-312442/#post3424654

WHY WON'T MY NEW WHEELS FIT OVER THE REAR HUBS ON MY 4TH GEN?

The 1993 to "late" 1996 4th Gen F-Bodies have a larger hub on the rear axle than on the front spindles. The rear axle hubs are about 0.03" larger in diameter than the front hubs. This problem was corrected in late 1996 model year or possibly in early 1997.

As a result, if you buy C4 or C5 wheels, or if you buy 1997 or newer F-Body wheels, they may not fit on the rear hubs of your 1993-1996 F-Body.

The solution is very simple. First, DO NOT FORCE THEM ON WITH THE LUGS! Very dangerous, and you may not be able to get them off. You need to lightly sand or grind (e.g. - Dremel) the inside diameter of the hub hole in the back of the wheel. Don't go nuts.... just remove enough metal so the wheel cleanly fits over the rear hubs, with no interference.

Think about doing this to all 4 wheels, so you can "rotate" the tires in the future.

This will not harm the wheels.... you are taking off the thickness of a sheet of paper. Just be sure you do a neat, smooth job. This will also NOT affect the centering of the wheels on the hubs. The 4th Gen wheels are "lug-centric" - they are centered by the conical lugs, not by the hubs.

[PolarBear]

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/wheels-tires-49/wheel-tire-faq-general-topics-312442/#post3424654

I don't buy the word of one person on an internet forum on something like this


I found this and I tend to think this is more accurate. If GM wheels were not hub centric there is no need for a tightly fitting hub inside the wheel
Hub-Centric:

Nearly all OEM Wheels are designed to be hub-centric. The automaker designs an OEM wheel to fit on a certain car or range of cars. The center bore of the wheel is sized to fit perfectly onto the axle of that car. This is a hub-centric connection, as the wheel is centered by it's connection to the axle hub. The lugnuts hold the wheel firmly to the mounting plate, but it is the wheel-to-axle connection that actually holds the weight of the car. This is quite an important distinction, as the lugnuts are designed to handle lateral forces that push the wheel away from the mounting plate. The forces that the hub and center bore connection are designed to withstand – the weight of the car forcing downward and impacts forcing upward – are at right angles to the forces that the lugnuts are designed for.

[PolarBear]

Futermore
Lug-Centric:

Hub diameter is therefore an extremely important consideration when fitting new wheels, whether OEM or aftermarket. If the hub diameter is smaller that the axle, the wheel will simply not fit. Most aftermarket wheels are therefore made with larger hub diameters to ensure that they will fit on a wide range of cars. This means that when the wheel is installed, there will most likely be a space between the axle and the hub instead of a firm contact. The wheel is therefore lug-centric, as the wheel is centered by the lugs rather than by the hub. There are some people who will say that driving on lug-centric wheels doesn't really matter as long as the lugnuts are the self-centering cone type, as they will adequately center the wheel. These people are wrong. Driving on lug-centric wheels means that any impact will apply shear force to the lug studs, forces at 90 degrees to those the studs are designed to handle. This can cause the lug studs to bend, leading to a vibration in the car as the wheel slips around on the mounting plate, and possibly damaging the wheel's center bore if it has enough play to contact the axle. To prevent this kind of thing, aftermarket wheels will usually need hub-centric spacers, small rings of metal or plastic made with various inside and outside diameters so as to fit inside the wheel hub and then fit over the axle, making a lug-centric fitment into a hub-centric one. Some aftermarket wheel makers advertise that all of their wheels are in fact hub-centric – what this means is that they provide the proper spacers for the customer's car, not that they custom-make their wheels for the many hub diameters out there. Most good wheel retailers, online or otherwise, will provide the correct spacers as part of the fitment package. If you do need to shop for a set, try one of the better online stores. In Real Life, most tire retailers will also either carry spacers or will know who does. Do not make the mistake of thinking that spacers are optional equipment, or that a retailer is trying to upsell you on some useless accessories. Hub-centric spacers are actually about as necessary for aftermarket wheels as lugnuts are. Keep the proper fitment for your wheels and you'll be driving happy for a good long time.

[sweetbmxrider]

So I should be dead? Cause my ls1 wheels and z06 replicas don't fit tightly over my rear axle, I had to grind them to fit and it ain't pretty. My drag wheels, well those things are a joke. Prostars have that floating center to them and that doesn't fit tight at all around the hub. All of that info seems to make some sense BUT I've done exactly what I shouldn't have and have no issue whatsoever. Manufacturers offer fbody wheels in 93-02 fitment when the hub fitment is not the same. Haven't seen any offer hub centering adapters. Who knows maybe tomorrow I'll crash and burn.

[PolarBear]

As I have said, I have run hub centric wheels lug centric and it has been OK, but I wouldn't take it to the track like that. I was mostly posting that to say that I am fairly confident that the wheels on the 4th gens are also hub centric, not lug.

[sweetbmxrider]

Hey, you could be right and I could be completely wrong. I have drag raced my car with either set of wheels and haven't had an issue either. I don't take twisties fast though, which I think would be much harder on the components.

[LTb1ow]

Hey, you could be right and I could be completely wrong. I have drag raced my car with either set of wheels and haven't had an issue either. I don't take twisties fast though, which I think would be much harder on the components.

Pretty much any 4th gen that drag races has lug centric wheels on "hub centric" axles.

Hence my confusion.

[The_Bishop]

BMX, those deathtrap wheels you are running are obviously causing you worry and stress. You should give them to me and I will dispose of them properly.





:laugh:

[BonzoHansen]

most aftermarket wheels are generally lug centric. you can usually get hub centric rings to compensate. OE wheels are usually hub centric. as i understand it hub centric wheels put less stress on the studs. I might guess less stress than guys who use BMW wheels on 5x4.75 hubs and those guys defend that usage. I'd run lug centric wheels but not wheels with incorrect bolt pattern. Caveat emptor...



BTW "i did it and nothing happened" is an illogical response.

[LTb1ow]

most aftermarket wheels are generally lug centric. you can usually get hub centric rings to compensate. OE wheels are usually hub centric. as i understand it hub centric wheels put less stress on the studs. I might guess less stress than guys who use BMW wheels on 5x4.75 hubs and those guys defend that usage. I'd run lug centric wheels but not wheels with incorrect bolt pattern. Caveat emptor...



BTW "i did it and nothing happened" is an illogical response.

In a single person's experience, yes, I would agree.

However, we are talking almost every single 4th gen on a drag wheel setup or non OE wheels.

[sweetbmxrider]

Or early fbodys swapping later fbodys wheels on.

[Dudbird113]

Pretty much any 4th gen that drag races has lug centric wheels on "hub centric" axles.

Hence my confusion.

My racestars are hub centric. Have a plastic adaptor ring