Roll Bar for daily driving

[LTb1ow]

Being as I am bored as hell at work, and been reading up on a pure daily driver and roll bars. Lets have at it.

Is there a way to have a roll bar in a say 95% street car and 5% track car with it being safe?

I would think that if you have a quality seat, with the main hoop far back from the seat and seat either braced to bar or a quality braced seat, then have stock seatbelts for daily use and harnesses for track use.. its safe?

A lot of very heated opinions on this, ironic that "street" cars need a bar to run at a NHRA track. But I digress.

[Blackbirdws6]

What do you mean by safe and I assume you are referring to a 6-point? I'm not up on the specific NHRA rules that would pertain to your car.

[Featherburner]

Nothing ironic about it.

[LTb1ow]

What do you mean by safe and I assume you are referring to a 6-point? I'm not up on the specific NHRA rules that would pertain to your car.

Yes, and same as you, I need a 6pt and harness for potential ET or my current trap I believe.

Nothing ironic about it.

A new vette will run off factory floor needing a bar..so the NHRA knows more about crash safety than GM and the DOT..? Ironic to me.

[Blackbirdws6]

Yes, and same as you, I need a 6pt and harness for potential ET or my current trap I believe.



A new vette will run off factory floor needing a bar..so the NHRA knows more about crash safety than GM and the DOT..? Ironic to me.

Well I like my swing outs since I keep them out of the car unless I am headed to the track. I don't know if they are allowed any longer but I didn't get any crap for them this past year.

[Featherburner]

A new vette will run off factory floor needing a bar..so the NHRA knows more about crash safety than GM and the DOT..? Ironic to me.NHRA knows more about racing safety on their tracks than GM and DOT? Yeah, I think so. Ironic, not at all.

[sweetbmxrider]

A new vette will run off factory floor needing a bar..so the NHRA knows more about crash safety than GM and the DOT..? Ironic to me.

What is the trap speed? Oh right, double any posted speed limit :nick:

Being several feet from a concrete median with any sort of 3000+ pound death machine barreling down next to me, I see there is a difference.



My jeep has a factory roll bar with 3 point seat belts, what's your question again?

[LTb1ow]

Nevermind.

[WSex]

The roll bar in my car interfered with the belt system. So those had to go bye bye. But it's quite easy to get in an out of the car with the bars.

[BarneyMobile]

Matt, your car still won't be NHRA legal with only a 6 point roll bar. A 6 point is only good to 10.0 or 135mph.

[BonzoHansen]

fwiw a new vette has a lot more crash protection than a car designed over 20 years ago and then modified. /offtopic

I guess you need to figure out how a much cage needs to be built to pass NHRA rules and then see if it can be installed in such a way that your head cannot come in contact with it in a crash, and that you can leave the 3 points in place as IIRC it is illegal to drive around with a harness on. Assuming this is a bar with door bars and not a full cage. IMO a full cage has no place on the street. I think we sadly saw the consequences of that not too long ago. Of course your back seats are off limits with a bar of any sort.

[WildBillyT]

Being as I am bored as hell at work, and been reading up on a pure daily driver and roll bars. Lets have at it.

Is there a way to have a roll bar in a say 95% street car and 5% track car with it being safe?

I would think that if you have a quality seat, with the main hoop far back from the seat and seat either braced to bar or a quality braced seat, then have stock seatbelts for daily use and harnesses for track use.. its safe?

A lot of very heated opinions on this, ironic that "street" cars need a bar to run at a NHRA track. But I digress.

From what I can gather:

1.) Gotta keep the regular seat belts for DOT purposes
2.) Use a quality seat
3.) Don't dick around with mounting the harness
4.) Swing outs are legal, and I *think* you can have them double-pinned, so you can completely remove the door bars for street use.
5.) You may actually be in cage territory, not bar.

FWIW, I'd do it.

[WSex]

Well I know the harness is illegal in street because it won't slack. And you're neck goes crrraaaack.

[WildBillyT]

fwiw a new vette has a lot more crash protection than a car designed over 20 years ago and then modified. /offtopic

I guess you need to figure out how a much cage needs to be built to pass NHRA rules and then see if it can be installed in such a way that your head cannot come in contact with it in a crash, and that you can leave the 3 points in place as IIRC it is illegal to drive around with a harness on. Assuming this is a bar with door bars and not a full cage. IMO a full cage has no place on the street. I think we sadly saw the consequences of that not too long ago. Of course your back seats are off limits with a bar of any sort.

Agreed on that. I am assuming he is talking about a 6 pt which would have adequate head clearance.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc319/SicMonte/Monte/IMG_2966-1.jpg

Like so. The crossbar would be slightly below shoulder height so there's no problem there. Yes, I know the door bars are not legal in this pic.

[WildBillyT]

Well I know the harness is illegal in street because it won't slack. And you're neck goes crrraaaack.

What?

[BonzoHansen]

Well I know the harness is illegal in street because it won't slack. And you're neck goes crrraaaack.

belts do stretch in accidents, they are deigned that way. but yes harnesses less so. and most street morons install them wrong so they do more harm than good - oooh spinal compression hurts. Plus if you don't have a cage the roof might crush you in a rollover - 3 points actually let you move by design.

[WildBillyT]

belts do stretch in accidents, they are deigned that way. but yes harnesses less so. and most street morons install them wrong so they do more harm than good - oooh spinal compression hurts. Plus if you don't have a cage the roof might crush you in a rollover - 3 points actually let you move by design.

It's amazing how many people mount to the floor. :bertstare:

[sweetbmxrider]

There are DOT approved 5 point belts.

My jeep has front spreader bars from the factory with a piece of cloth around it. My seat can recline under the main hoop. I should be wearing a helmet when I drive it with my 3 point belts.

Most newer cars have cinching belts, they pull you tight against the seat, the air bag deploys, you smash your face into the bag, life is good aside from bag burns on your arms and maybe some powder in the eyes.

I'm still wondering what you were talking about with seat depth etc? Sure a flimsy kirkey should be supported by the cross bar but stock seats survive highway wrecks.

In my humble, biased, and mostly incorrect opinion, you either do it right for the track and sacrifice safety on the street or keep it right for the street and sacrifice safety on the track. If you try to do both, neither will be safe.

And Rob is right, you are 10 point halo land brah.

[WildBillyT]

There are DOT approved 5 point belts.

My jeep has front spreader bars from the factory with a piece of cloth around it. My seat can recline under the main hoop. I should be wearing a helmet when I drive it with my 3 point belts.

Most newer cars have cinching belts, they pull you tight against the seat, the air bag deploys, you smash your face into the bag, life is good aside from bag burns on your arms and maybe some powder in the eyes.

I'm still wondering what you were talking about with seat depth etc? Sure a flimsy kirkey should be supported by the cross bar but stock seats survive highway wrecks.

In my humble, biased, and mostly incorrect opinion, you either do it right for the track and sacrifice safety on the street or keep it right for the street and sacrifice safety on the track. If you try to do both, neither will be safe.

And Rob is right, you are 10 point halo land brah.

If you are talking about the Schroth belts, yeah, but they have to be mounted in the stock belt mount areas from what I remember. Or something like that, there's a technicality.

[Dudbird113]

If i was you id go track oriented setup. Either way a cage or roll bar=killer lol

[LTb1ow]

There are DOT approved 5 point belts.

My jeep has front spreader bars from the factory with a piece of cloth around it. My seat can recline under the main hoop. I should be wearing a helmet when I drive it with my 3 point belts.

Most newer cars have cinching belts, they pull you tight against the seat, the air bag deploys, you smash your face into the bag, life is good aside from bag burns on your arms and maybe some powder in the eyes.

I'm still wondering what you were talking about with seat depth etc? Sure a flimsy kirkey should be supported by the cross bar but stock seats survive highway wrecks.

In my humble, biased, and mostly incorrect opinion, you either do it right for the track and sacrifice safety on the street or keep it right for the street and sacrifice safety on the track. If you try to do both, neither will be safe.

And Rob is right, you are 10 point halo land brah.

This is the point of the thread basically.

Obviously I need a bar of some sorts but I daily drive the car for the most part so making it so the bar doesn't kill me in a accident round town, how would you do it.

I think a pure 100% NHRA passing bar is not that paramount, as most of the tech I have seen at T&T nights/rentals is nonexistent.

[sweetbmxrider]

Don't put anything in it and take the gamble at the track or throw something in it and take the gamble on the street. I drive my car and don't think twice about it. Like I mentioned, my jeep has a roll bar that I could easily smash my head into. Its actually worse than my car and it rolled off of the assembly line like that.

[Dudbird113]

Let me ask you this, what is the intent of your car?

[LTb1ow]

A car I can race at the track without worrying about slamming the brakes at the 1/8 and also daily drive making sure I make the bar so that its safe.

[Dudbird113]

For how fast you should go i think cage is in order. I see no reason why you wouldnt be safe on the street with a full cage with a swing out bar. Seat and belt wise idk about. You could leave the bars in the door if your worried alot.

[BonzoHansen]

Because when his head hits that cage in an accident on the street with no helmet it might kill him

[V]

pad the hell out of it?

long shot, but what about a very custom cage build? i forget if your car is hardtop or ttop but something along the lines of running the side upper cage bars where the main section of the top bracket are? kind of revising them higher so they are "in" the roof line of the car. then back down at the a and b pillars. basically making them part of the roof and windshield frame structure.

[Dudbird113]

So put some padding on that crap. Cant be a scary mary all your life.

[sweetbmxrider]

Because when his head hits that cage in an accident on the street with no helmet it might kill him

I understand what you are saying and all, but what is the difference if my head slams the bar or the ttop latch or the windshield frame or the door or the steering column? I think if you were in an accident that had enough inertia to overcome the stock belt and allow your head to reach any of those points, you are going to be lucky to survive in a stock car with air bags that are older than 10 years. From what I have been told, they are supposed to be retested then so that is a gamble as well. I can understand that the bars are a few inches in diameter so those points are coming closer to you. I just don't see pillows where they would cover. The windshield is really the only thing that has some give and that area isn't greatly effected. Could be my young and dumb mindset though :lol:

So put some padding on that crap. Cant be a scary mary all your life.

Yeah roll bar padding is a joke.....

[deadtrend1]

This is where a custom cage will be tighter to the edges of the car then a mail order one.

[BarneyMobile]

I drive my car on the street with a bar and have never worried about hitting my head on it. My main hoop is padded but my head comes no where near hitting anything. At some point a full 10 point cage is going in and even then I still won't worry. If this car isn't your daily, why worry so much about the topic? Theres more times that a cage has saved lives than taken lives.

[BonzoHansen]

in most cases the cage bar is closer to your head and harder than most things listed, and properly has no give. steering columns are by design & law collapsible, steering wheels flex. dashes also give, etc. you are probably not hitting a windshield with a OE belt unless it fails, but glass gives too. The cage steel does not give at all.

I'm not sure of the best way to describe it or if this will come out good in text, but I'll try. Hitting a roll cage would be more a more concentrated hit. You hit a flat surface with a tiny bit of give you spread out the energy/impact. I'm at a loss for a really good analogy, but I guess would you rather smash my head into the flat part of some 3/4" plywood than the side. both will hurt. I suspect one hurts much more.

No old (I mean more than say 10 years) car is much great at side impacts. That is the reason for the proliferation of side impact airbags. But adding steel closer to your head can't be good for an unhelmeted, un-hans deviced head. And in a cage it's the bar that runs high front to back that worries me most. And if a car needs halo bars at a given power level, well, that is race only. Again we saw that happen not too long ago.

It's not the 135mph crash you need to worry about on the street. You can never be protected from every possibility. Using outlier examples to support an opinion is illogical. If your example changes one key point - distance to the head - you no longer have a valid comparison. You need to be protected from the 80% of things that do happen. It's getting t-boned by a 18 year old girl reading a text that runs a rad light at 30 mph. If you get hit on the passenger side you should walk out. With a cage you might not. I've seen guys locally driving cars with cages that I would not get in because of that scenario.

I'll add this personal note too. I had my car on the track at NJMSP. I had it up to at least 125. No problems, everything went great, I wanted to do it all day, and started planning for other track events in the future. I plan on adding a little more power soon that would make 140 in the same spot easily attainable. My car has no cage or even a bar. But the more I think about it, and the more I talk to smart people, the more I realize either it gets a cage and becomes a race car or I cannot be on those tracks. All I need is a rad hose to pop or the guy in front of me to oil the corner and my family is in trouble. And I know I am not alone in that reassesment as it was the talk at Optima. Street cars with more power than winston cup cars and drivers with far less ability = something bad is going to happen soon. The guys that ran the track event I went to are now revamping their series because they have the same thought process. So I get the whole crossroads decision. I'm just glad I have not had the time & money to overbuild my car without thinking it through to the end. Which I did not. I saw what 'other guys were doing' and felt I'd be ok. I was wrong.

I spent a good 30 minutes talking to Ron Sutton while I was at SEMA. He is a well respected long time professional race car builder. He confirmed and added to my fears, for good reason. He has just begun a safety series at Pro Touring and Lateral-G (http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/103597-Safety-for-Pro-Touring-Track-Cars) that so far I have found rather educational.

Last point to further muck it up. If you plan to insure your car for what it is worth using collectors insurance, etc., a bar or cage will greatly reduce the number of carriers that will cover you. For instance Hagerty will not.

Sure it will never happen to you. But we know a local family it happened to, not a made up scenario to scare you.

[BarneyMobile]

The simple anwser would be, don't race at the track. If you want to race at the track, you know what you have to do.

[Dudbird113]

No matter what you do the sudden impact isnt going to prevent your brain from smashing into the inside of your skull.

[sweetbmxrider]

The only bar that you are concerned with, Scott, comes factory in my jeep....I understand all the points you are making too and agree that a passenger side based impact will send you head towards that spreader/halo bar but my car rolled off the assembly line like that. Maybe there is more space comparing the two platforms, I don't know. As far as a 6 point goes, no bar will interfere with any of the areas you mentioned aside from a door bar. I run removable bars, the most I'll suffer is going to be from the ankle biter as I never have the door bars in.

[deadtrend1]

Are we really comparing to a jeep? Which has had extensive tests done by the dot and factory, to a race cage that joe schmoe installed one weekend?

[BonzoHansen]

No matter what you do the sudden impact isnt going to prevent your brain from smashing into the inside of your skull.and most wrecks have sudden stops. Oh, wait....

The simple answer would be, don't race at the track. If you want to race at the track, you know what you have to do.I agree. I also liked your post about understanding the risks and using it on the street. I sense you understand you can't have it both ways without a risk in some aspect. I respectfully disagree with using it on the street primarily because of other people on the street, but you get it.

The only bar that you are concerned with, Scott, comes factory in my jeep....I understand all the points you are making too and agree that a passenger side based impact will send you head towards that spreader/halo bar but my car rolled off the assembly line like that. Maybe there is more space comparing the two platforms, I don't know. As far as a 6 point goes, no bar will interfere with any of the areas you mentioned aside from a door bar. I run removable bars, the most I'll suffer is going to be from the ankle biter as I never have the door bars in.

that is why I clarified the upper bar and not the lower door bar. I would likely use a 6pt in an occasional street car, knowing the back seats are 100% off limits to people. I understand we are talking about more than a 6 pt to pass NHRA tech at the power in question. to be in spec the cage bar is most likely closer than the one in your jeep. and a few inches may be the difference in both whether the head hits the bar, or how hard it hits it. If it needs a halo that is not even remotely comparable

I also don't know if the jeep comparo should let you be comfortable.

This is a good conversation.

[deadtrend1]

....

This is a good conversation.

I dunno, maybe I'm just too reading it too black and white here.

If you wanna go "x" fast at the track you need to abide by the rules or risk getting tossed. Having a full cage to run that speed is required. If you wanna drive it on the street and feel "comfy" then you have to sacrafice something somewhere. Speed at the track or headroom or make a strict track car or something.

[BonzoHansen]

I dunno, maybe I'm just too reading it too black and white here.

If you wanna go "x" fast at the track you need to abide by the rules or risk getting tossed. Having a full cage to run that speed is required. If you wanna drive it on the street and feel "comfy" then you have to sacrafice something somewhere. Speed at the track or headroom or make a strict track car or something.

I mean it's good as in I think it highlights that people make assumptions that seem perfectly logical on the surface but when you look deeper those assumptions are not so logical anymore. And if you are building a car you have to think ahead and be honest about intended use. I have absolutely made the same flawed assumptions at times.

[deadtrend1]

agree with you there

[sweetbmxrider]

Are we really comparing to a jeep? Which has had extensive tests done by the dot and factory, to a race cage that joe schmoe installed one weekend?

D4SaLst8aVY

Doesn't seem to do too well. Imagine a full size adult in the back, head is nailing the rear bar. Imagine a Front Passenger, probably wind up near the same fate. Just because it rolls off of the assembly line, doesn't mean its A-ok.

[Dudbird113]

You guys act like your going to get into a wreck on purpose. If we wanted a safe car we woulda bought a 5 star crash rated car or what not and not a f body. Just like we know the consequences of the speed involved with our modded cars. Its like having a 700hp car and complaining on gas mileage sucking.

[Demonicbird00]

heres my 2 cents and i agree w/ Rob

1. if you want to run at the track and be legal, you need a 10 point

2. if you dont want to put the safety equipment in it then dont race at the track

I have a 6point bar and i feel way safer in the car over a stock production car

you cant say "if you have a bar or cage its worse in an accident" you say "said person" died because they hit their head on the bar, there are always freak accidents

some people are alive today from wearing belts and theres people alive today from not wearing belts

and Bonzo, if you want to go faster on the road course you dont need to add power, add better brakes and tires and seat time. power is the last thing you do to go faster

-brandon

flame suit on

[BonzoHansen]

heres my 2 cents and i agree w/ Rob

1. if you want to run at the track and be legal, you need a 10 point

2. if you dont want to put the safety equipment in it then dont race at the track

I have a 6point bar and i feel way safer in the car over a stock production car

you cant say "if you have a bar or cage its worse in an accident" you say "said person" died because they hit their head on the bar, there are always freak accidents

some people are alive today from wearing belts and theres people alive today from not wearing belts

and Bonzo, if you want to go faster on the road course you dont need to add power, add better brakes and tires and seat time. power is the last thing you do to go faster

-brandon

flame suit on
No suit needed. I agree 100%. The idea of adding more power is what led my thinking down a particular path, all of which you touched on. The nut behind the wheel needs to be tightened.

My point is really mitigating risk - staying safe in the the 80%. I tend to think in the old 80/20 rule. You can't anticipate freak stuff, etc. - that's the 20%. I do not see where a cage (not a 4 or 6 pt) in the street is a good idea because IMO you've now added risk in situations that fall in the to the 80% category. I think adding a cage increases the likely hood of injury in more instances than helps in routine street driving. Which to me is very often under 50mph.

When does a cage help on the street? A rollover? If you rollover a car in the street I suspect you will have more of a chance of making contact than most regular accidents, not less - unless you have your harness & HANS on. So does the cage help in the 20%? Maybe, maybe not. Might it negatively impact crumble zones so the car does not absorb energy the way it is designed to? I don't know, I'm not really educated on it. But I know they talk about energy dissipation when indy cars disintegrate.

There are way more people alive today because of wearing seat belts than not. There are cases that a belt may have been problematic, but I think those cases are outliers and cannot be used in a logical discussion. Belts help in the 80% bucket (although I bet in the cases of belts it more like 99%)

[BonzoHansen]

You guys act like your going to get into a wreck on purpose. If we wanted a safe car we woulda bought a 5 star crash rated car or what not and not a f body. Just like we know the consequences of the speed involved with our modded cars. Its like having a 700hp car and complaining on gas mileage sucking.

so your point is you can't be safe and go fast? Or try to minimize the risks?

BTW the new camaro is 5 star crash rated.

[Mike]

so your point is you can't be safe and go fast? Or try to minimize the risks?

BTW the new camaro is 5 star crash rated.

Won't be when a cage changes the effectiveness of the factory crumple points. Which has been matts entire point in this thread. Things that make you safer in one arena will cause counter effects in the others.

Solution. Cage the thing and drive the gmc

[The_Bishop]

This is when you start to realize that driving what amounts to a race car on the street comes with some inherent risks. By rights, if the car is going to see track time it needs a cage. No matter what you might be thinking now, at some point you will want to see what it can do all-out. Eventually, you will be thrown out of every track near you if you persist in running with no/not enough cage. That's if you don't wreck and kill yourself. However, driving on the street with a caged car has it's own risks, and daily driving a car with 5-points is a PITA.

[LTb1ow]

Great responses guys, really good reading.

Basically what I am asking is if there is a way to make the 6pt NHRA legal and maximize the distance between the hoop and my head.

Door bars I can remove for street use etc, and rear seats are long gone so thats moot.

I would much sooner ditch the legal track racing than make the car full out race car.

I worry to much, drive close to 500miles a week and see some interesting stuff out there... :lol:

[sweetbmxrider]

My seats are in front of the hoop.

The bar/cage attaches to the strongest points in the car, like the front subframe and torque boxes, and creates a safety capsule to a point. Many new cars are designed like this, especially the little smart cars etc. I'm sure much of that was drawn from racing and f1 especially, they seem to be the cutting edge with driver protection in an accident from what I gather.

[NastyEllEssWon]

lol just get an open faced helmet and wear it on the street :D

[LTb1ow]

My seats are in front of the hoop.

The bar/cage attaches to the strongest points in the car, like the front subframe and torque boxes, and creates a safety capsule to a point. Many new cars are designed like this, especially the little smart cars etc. I'm sure much of that was drawn from racing and f1 especially, they seem to be the cutting edge with driver protection in an accident from what I gather.

Right, I know that, but as you can see, a crash means your head/body are moving a lot. Seat is not static but that bar is, so just concerned.

Is there a rule about the proximity of main hoop to seat back?

[coolmanvette75]

Gonna throw my 0.02 in here since I am in the same boat. I have a Wolfe 6pt sitting in my garage but have already come to the realization that I am going to be needing a full cage. From what I have researched, the 6pts are really not that bad as far as clearance goes. The hoop is decently far away and the door bars can be removed when you get swing outs with it (like I did). S&W makes a kit to convert a 6pt into a 10pt, which I believe is good to 8.50 (forget the mph). My friend has that conversion in his Vette and IMO I would not run it on a street car. His helmet rests on the bar when he sits in it, so clearance sucks. What I am going to do is put the 6pt I have in there now and get someone to do the 10pt conversion custom, so that I have the most head clearance from the halo possible. And just a tip when you are looking into it, the bar that goes across attaching to the 2 a-pillar bars behind the dash isnt required until 7.50, so you dont need that...

[Jersey Mike]

Matt, from what I've read here, I'd lean against the cage in your case.

You have NOT built a race car. Between the engine bay aesthetics, transmission and gear choices, and power levels you've made your decision clear. There were more "All Out" approaches you could have taken, but bypassed.

It's a great weekend warrior. Enough Go to make you giddy, fun summertime driver and car show/meet attendee. As for the 2-3 track days a year you'll do, you may very well slip through the cracks and get to run down the strip. Of course, eventually you will raise an eyebrow and get booted for not having a full cage, but in the meantime, you'll have a chance to reevaluate your appreciation of seat-time, be it on the track or everywhere else. You'll spend more than 90% of your time on the street. I'd design towards that, if I were you.




Agreed Scott, A+ thread.

[LTb1ow]

Gonna throw my 0.02 in here since I am in the same boat. I have a Wolfe 6pt sitting in my garage but have already come to the realization that I am going to be needing a full cage. From what I have researched, the 6pts are really not that bad as far as clearance goes. The hoop is decently far away and the door bars can be removed when you get swing outs with it (like I did). S&W makes a kit to convert a 6pt into a 10pt, which I believe is good to 8.50 (forget the mph). My friend has that conversion in his Vette and IMO I would not run it on a street car. His helmet rests on the bar when he sits in it, so clearance sucks. What I am going to do is put the 6pt I have in there now and get someone to do the 10pt conversion custom, so that I have the most head clearance from the halo possible. And just a tip when you are looking into it, the bar that goes across attaching to the 2 a-pillar bars behind the dash isnt required until 7.50, so you dont need that...

Not to be taken as me being a pain, but from what I read so far, converting a 6pt bar to cage with halo is much more work than buying a 10 pt cage new. So think that over before ruining the resale on your bar.

A 6 pt is good to what, bottom 9s no?

[sweetbmxrider]

Right, I know that, but as you can see, a crash means your head/body are moving a lot. Seat is not static but that bar is, so just concerned.

Is there a rule about the proximity of main hoop to seat back?

Not that I can recall, just the seatback is supposed to be affixed to it which would prevent what you don't want.

Not to be taken as me being a pain, but from what I read so far, converting a 6pt bar to cage with halo is much more work than buying a 10 pt cage new. So think that over before ruining the resale on your bar.

A 6 pt is good to what, bottom 9s no?

10.0/135 last I checked. How often do you even race? Track rentals, they don't care. If you do a T&T night, just beat up some 14 second street cars with some half throttle to the 1/8th then FULL PULLLLLLLL

[LTb1ow]

Not that I can recall, just the seatback is supposed to be affixed to it which would prevent what you don't want.



10.0/135 last I checked. How often do you even race? Track rentals, they don't care. If you do a T&T night, just beat up some 14 second street cars with some half throttle to the 1/8th then FULL PULLLLLLLL

Ok, so basically if I want to do a bar, plan on a new seat or two that will allow for correct harnesses and for them to be secured to bar so my head doesn't get introduced to it.

I only ask about this topic cause this year I would really like to make it to the LTXshootout and they will want a 6pt. Otherwise, yea, T&T/rentals would not cause me to care about a bar.

[Blackbirdws6]

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. You want to meet track requirements reasonably so a 6 pt is likely where you want to be since a 10pt will not be desirable for "street car" status. As you mentioned, make sure you have good seats that are solidly secured to the vehicle, proper harnesses and hope for the best. Hindsight is always a beautiful thing and anything can happen in a crash.... You will always find a crash story that supports any of the well thought out statements made in this thread.

[WildBillyT]

6pt makes a lot more sense in this case. A pro installation like deadtrend mentioned will get you a better quality fit and can also lead to increased safety.

However, you were running 137 launching soft. So I dunno where you will end up as far as being "over the line" speed wise.

[The_Bishop]

I'd go with a minimum of a 6 point, then. And in all likelyhood, a pro built/installed 6 point can be built to meet your critera probably far better than a bolt-in kit type.

[sweetbmxrider]

6pt makes a lot more sense in this case. A pro installation like deadtrend mentioned will get you a better quality fit and can also lead to increased safety.

However, you were running 137 launching soft. So I dunno where you will end up as far as being "over the line" speed wise.

Might slow down some between the correct gearing, added weight of safety equipment, and actually hooking up on the line. I think he was rolling the throttle too so it might go 140 instead :lol:

[LTb1ow]

http://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86561&d=1386223351

Looks like I can sneak the bar back a ways and if the seat is taller than my head, should be fine in that aspect.

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/103597-Safety-for-Pro-Touring-Track-Cars

Some good reading in that, makes me wanna go strip my car and save up for expensive safety gear. :lol:

[BonzoHansen]

Looks like I can sneak the bar back a ways and if the seat is taller than my head, should be fine in that aspect.

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/103597-Safety-for-Pro-Touring-Track-Cars

Some good reading in that, makes me wanna go strip my car and save up for expensive safety gear. :lol:

yup, that is the thread i linked to earlier.

[sweetbmxrider]

I skimmed it, I'll read it later as it looks like lots of good info but....

Driver weight … along with speed, g-forces, etc, plays a role in proper seat selection. The heavier a driver is, the stronger the seat needs to be built to not “fold up” under hard impacts. Racing seat manufacturers are in a tough spot, because the “it won’t happen to me” idiot racers buy seats that are light & cheap. So they need to offer light & cheap seats or they will miss sales to their competitors. This advice is simple … don’t be an idiot by buying the cheapest & lightest seat like this ...

http://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86575&d=1386223557

If you can literally flex your seat by moving around in it (parked) … well that my friends is what we call a clue. The seat needs to be strong enough to hold a heavy mass (you) in place during a high-G crash. Do not buy into the myth that the seat needs to flex with you. The seat & 5-7 point harness need to work together to contain you from flinging around in the cockpit in bad crashes. So paper thin “economy racing seats” with no bracing should not be considered safe.

I don't think he has sat in a kirkey OR he is much fatter/stronger/better looking than me. Mine is stiff, doesn't flex at all. I haven't secured it to my bar though, something I should do.

[LTb1ow]

I skimmed it, I'll read it later as it looks like lots of good info but....



I don't think he has sat in a kirkey OR he is much fatter/stronger/better looking than me. Mine is stiff, doesn't flex at all. I haven't secured it to my bar though, something I should do.

Did you read more in detail on that? He says he personally runs a kirkey, but its the heavy duty like .120 thick version.

This is a Wolfe bar, seems like with a 3 point stock seat belt, you are going into the bar on a rollover.
http://www.wolferacecraft.com/images/Install%20Pics/fbbar/fbwbar07.jpg

[Blackbirdws6]

I have some side shots of mine and with the seats all the way reclined, the bar is just aft of the seats. I would have to get in and see how far my head is from the bar but I recall it being pretty good. Things can move around in an accident obviously so that can change. Thankfully the Corbeau's are much stronger than the factory seats.

[Pampered-Z]

ET of 11:50 -10.0- slower then 134.9MPH you need a roll bar. That is typically a 6 point type. I have an S+W, which is an 8 point, has cross bars from the main hoop to the trans tunnel. I have swing out and I remove them when not at the track. NHRA rule is the side bar must pass between the shoulder and elbow, so its right at the arm rest on the door, making it a nuisance when cruising. I have my main hoop padded just for a bit of extra safty, and it does reduce some of the visabilty out the back window. NHRA rules define how must room between helmet and bars, and if installed this way, you are not going to make contact with the bar in a crash.

ETS 9.99 - 7:50 over 135 MPH is a roll cage - 10-12 point and a chassi certification. this adds the halo, down tubes at the dash, and through the firewall bars to tie everything together, window nets, parachutes ect. allot more race then street, My Guess, I haven't check the recent rules, but you use to be able to have swingouts.

7:50 -> 175MHP? Pro cage, with the bars that encase the drive. Don't think this is street legal due all the obstructed view. And with this you head can make contact with the bars.

Again, I would need to check the rule book. But NHRA use to have a clause for a "pure stock" car was exempt from some of the safety rules. Pure stock, if you even put in a CAI or changed muffler you were no longer stock.

I always use my 5 point harness have been pulled over a few times and they never questioned me using the 5 point and not the stock belts. But, I know they could.

For the shoulder belts, you can mount to the floor Y-belts, wrap around the cross bar, or mount to the cage. I have tabs welded to the cross tube for by belts.

** There are a few companies that sell roll bars that have thigh high side bars, and removable cross bars so you an use the back seat. these are NOT NHRA legal cages.

[WildBillyT]

Y belts are no longer legal IIRC.

[Dudbird113]

If you really wanted to you could use no cage and run to the 1/8, i know plenty of people that do that and have fast cars.

[sweetbmxrider]

Did you read more in detail on that? He says he personally runs a kirkey, but its the heavy duty like .120 thick version.

This is a Wolfe bar, seems like with a 3 point stock seat belt, you are going into the bar on a rollover.
http://www.wolferacecraft.com/images/Install%20Pics/fbbar/fbwbar07.jpg

I saw afterward and saw the quoted pic was the economy drag.

It all depends on where you install the main hoop as well. That seems a little forward compared to mine. You also can adjust the seat positioning so you aren't under the bar. Mine don't go under but I also have trans am seats, maybe they are taller.

[WSex]

I put mine as far back as I could especially since I have my seat all the way back. The roll bar dpesnt seem like a danger how I have it setup.

[LTb1ow]

Apologies if someone covered this already but with a bar, and no helmet... is a 5pt safer than stock 3pt belt? No airbags.

(I know its not legal DOT wise and I know it would depend on install and how its worn)

[WSex]

Apologies if someone covered this already but with a bar, and no helmet... is a 5pt safer than stock 3pt belt? No airbags.

(I know its not legal DOT wise and I know it would depend on install and how its worn)

No. Bc stock belts are designed tpbstretch and kind of catch you fall. While 5 pts hold you back with no excuses and let your neck fly forward. I guess unless you wear a 5 point a little loose.

[BonzoHansen]

Apologies if someone covered this already but with a bar, and no helmet... is a 5pt safer than stock 3pt belt? No airbags.

(I know its not legal DOT wise and I know it would depend on install and how its worn)

a bar as in a 4 or 6 pt? I'd use 3pts on the street I think.

[sweetbmxrider]

Either your face hits the steering wheel or side window or your head tries to go there and paralyzes you instead. Both are good choices.

[LTb1ow]

a bar as in a 4 or 6 pt? I'd use 3pts on the street I think.

A bar as in a proper 6 point roll bar. Hoop and downriggers etc.

Either your face hits the steering wheel or side window or your head tries to go there and paralyzes you instead. Both are good choices.

That was my thought, stock 3pt belt will slow you down but odds are, I would get a face full of steering wheel. Otherwise, 5pt would hold my body tight and neck/head would take shock.

[BonzoHansen]

Either your face hits the steering wheel or side window or your head tries to go there and paralyzes you instead. Both are good choices.

I'll take A of those choices. I've already done the 45mph head on into a truck that decided to make a left while I was entering the intersection going straight. Which I'd guess is a pretty typical street accident as far as speed & impact. I did not hit the steering wheel or get hurt, I had the OE 3 points on. Front of the car crumpled as best a 2nd gen is designed to. In fact you have to look for fatigue cracks in used 2nd gen hoods at the crumple points in front of the hinges. The hood in my back yard off the 81 Z I stripped has cracks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/Cars/th_16211114479.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SIBLY/media/Cars/16211114479.jpg.html)

btw the brand new S10 4x4 got totaled lol. I drove home. I could have had it all repaired including a new RR qtr panel for $2500. I should have!

[BonzoHansen]

That was my thought, stock 3pt belt will slow you down but odds are, I would get a face full of steering wheel. Otherwise, 5pt would hold my body tight and neck/head would take shock.

how fast do you intend on driving in the street that you plan to stretch the OE belt that far?

[LTb1ow]

how fast do you intend on driving in the street that you plan to stretch the OE belt that far?

Not fast at all, I drive the exact speed limit for the most part these days. Old person status.

Just curious on the tradeoff between a 5pts protection from body moving into roll bar, vs body held tight and head/spine taking all the shock.

Again, just bored at work and curious about the topic.

[BonzoHansen]

Not fast at all, I drive the exact speed limit for the most part these days. Old person status.

Just curious on the tradeoff between a 5pts protection from body moving into roll bar, vs body held tight and head/spine taking all the shock.

Again, just bored at work and curious about the topic.

no roll bar in front of you in 4/6 point setups, so non-concern. your seat should take car of movement backwards, they are designed to do that. That is why car seats got mandatory head rests in the 70s due to whiplash injuries. And old car guys that remove seat tops for the cool look are insane.

put your engineering hat on. Why do OEs still use 3 points and supplement with airbags instead of some other method? It isn't cost.

[LTb1ow]

no roll bar in front of you in 4/6 point setups, so non-concern. your seat should take car of movement backwards, they are designed to do that. That is why car seats got mandatory head rests in the 70s due to whiplash injuries. And old car guys that remove seat tops for the cool look are insane.

put your engineering hat on. Why do OEs still use 3 points and supplement with airbags instead of some other method? It isn't cost.

Your head can still travel up and back into the main hoop from a real bad rear end or angle rear shot. I don't think a 3pt would keep you secured enough for that motion IMO.

Logically speaking a 3pt is more idiot proof than a 5pt harness and much easier for a EMT/fire crew to cut you out of the car.

[BonzoHansen]

Your head can still travel up and back into the main hoop from a real bad rear end or angle rear shot. I don't think a 3pt would keep you secured enough for that motion IMO.

Logically speaking a 3pt is more idiot proof than a 5pt harness and much easier for a EMT/fire crew to cut you out of the car.

that would be quite a wreck to take move the body up and back. which in my thinking gets back to 80/20. what you describe to me sounds like a 20%er while the wreck I was in is an 80% example. And my neck did not snap. Seat choice matters, as well as exactly where that bar is behind you. And where NHRA wants it.

Egress is a discussion we have not had. That was one of the interesting takeways for me talking to Ron last month. He said his drivers practice getting out of the car. Another thing that seemed perfectly logical but I had never thought of. Harness, HANs, smoke, cage bars, I imagine it can get quite tense getting out of a car. Imagine someone else trying to get you out of a burning car if you are wearing a harness, which is unfamiliar equipment to most people.

[LTb1ow]

So it seems a good compromise (other than price wise :lol:) is to get solid mounted, non folding, high backed chairs, and mount the bar hoop as far back as legal via NHRA. Then run a 5pt harness and stock 3pt harness for street use.

Question then is, at the track, why do they not care about your neck injury just skull injuries? Assuming cause requiring a very pricey HANS device would be out of the question?

[BonzoHansen]

So it seems a good compromise (other than price wise :lol:) is to get solid mounted, non folding, high backed chairs, and mount the bar hoop as far back as legal via NHRA. Then run a 5pt harness and stock 3pt harness for street use.

Question then is, at the track, why do they not care about your neck injury just skull injuries? Assuming cause requiring a very pricey HANS device would be out of the question?

I cannot speak to what drives NHRA rules, they may be outdated, no idea. But I'm not sure how many front-enders you get into on a drag strip so maybe the rules skew towards different types of accidents. I really don't know..

i did some googling on HANs and tripped on this: http://www.autoracing1.com/goodboys/001031HANS1.htm
http://www.autoracing1.com/images/2000/nascar/hd2_200.jpg
http://www.autoracing1.com/images/2000/nascar/hd1_200.jpg

[WSex]

At the track what are you expecting to hit head on? Other than island.... I think keeping the oe belts for street and 5 pt for tracks is best bet.

[LTb1ow]

At the track what are you expecting to hit head on? Other than island.... I think keeping the oe belts for street and 5 pt for tracks is best bet.

The wall on either side of me...?

Have you seen any cars hit it? I saw one knock a jersey barrier a few feet, then bounce down the track..

[WSex]

The wall on either side of me...?

Have you seen any cars hit it? I saw one knock a jersey barrier a few feet, then bounce down the track..

key word. head on. unless you launch facing the wall.. possible.

[LTb1ow]

key word. head on. unless you launch facing the wall.. possible.

Yes, he 90* from something and nailed a wall head on.

Its possible.

[WSex]

idk man. pick your poison..... tie a rope from the main hoop to your helmet and enjoy.

[LTb1ow]

I got all winter to pick it, just wanted to hash out some thoughts I had on the topic.

[BonzoHansen]

Yes, he 90* from something and nailed a wall head on.

Its possible.

Plan for the 80%....

[LTb1ow]

Plan for the 80%....

You do know whose car this thread is about? Lets be serious here. :rofl: Anything is possible.

[WildBillyT]

At the track what are you expecting to hit head on? Other than island.... I think keeping the oe belts for street and 5 pt for tracks is best bet.

Expecting to hit dead nuts? Maybe the wall, maybe the guy that swerved into your lane by accident. **** happens.

[sweetbmxrider]

Yeah you could tbone someone or get out of the groove and take a hard turn into the wall.

[sweetbmxrider]

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oVc0LUDnKEU

lWJJhSSvP_Y

Accidents suck.

[LTb1ow]

Nice vids, pretty eye opening.

Guess I will stick to feeling safe in mai truck and live dangerously in the car.

[Dudbird113]

I know a while back a kid in my town (adult now) got his 4th gen sawed in half by a pole behind the driver seat. Both of them survived.

[The_Bishop]

Maybe stupid but somewhat relevant question; does a 6 point require the bar behind the seat for NHRA legality?

[sweetbmxrider]

Maybe stupid but somewhat relevant question; does a 6 point require the bar behind the seat for NHRA legality?

What bar? There is a diagram posted in here that shows helmet position relevant to the hoop. The crossbar is for seat bracing and belt attachment.

[WildBillyT]

Maybe stupid but somewhat relevant question; does a 6 point require the bar behind the seat for NHRA legality?

Crossbar? Yes. It can not be removable, either.

[The_Bishop]

Yeah, I meant the crossbar behind the seat. Don't understand why they don't make it removable, seems like it would encourage more safety equipment use if it didn't impact so badly on the streetable aspects of a car.

[LTb1ow]

Yeah, I meant the crossbar behind the seat. Don't understand why they don't make it removable, seems like it would encourage more safety equipment use if it didn't impact so badly on the streetable aspects of a car.

If the car rolls, the hoop is kept from flattening by that bar, think of the rafters holding your roof up. They keep the walls up straight.

Removable just adds in places for pins to sheer etc.

[sweetbmxrider]

You'd also run into the whole head smashing the rest of the main hoop deal. Hell, the rear bars over the top of your head wouldn't feel too great either.

[Featherburner]

Guess I will stick to feeling safe in mai truck and live dangerously in the car.As long as you realize it is just a feeling.

[LTb1ow]

As long as you realize it is just a feeling.

Eh, would rather be higher than someones bumper and have a nice working airbag system with ABS etc.

[KirkEvil]

Just wear a helmet whenever you drive on the street

[NJ Torque]

Just wear a helmet whenever you drive on the street



This is a good idea.

[The_Bishop]

Don't get me wrong, I understand structurally why that bar is there. Just seems to me that something could be engineered to make a joint that would be as strong as a welded joint but removable, even if it had to be bolted in to install instead of popping a pin in.

[sweetbmxrider]

You still have plenty of exposure to the main hoop and the downward rear bars. There is no way I would ride in the back on the street. Hit a big enough bump and you'll have a goose egg for a hat.

[BonzoHansen]

Yup, the back seat is off limits even with a 4pt

[NJ Torque]

You still have plenty of exposure to the main hoop and the downward rear bars. There is no way I would ride in the back on the street. Hit a big enough bump and you'll have a goose egg for a hat.

Yup, the back seat is off limits even with a 4pt


It actually wasnt bad at all in my GN with a 6 pt bar... once you were in the back it was pretty comfy. :kneeslap:

[BonzoHansen]

It actually wasnt bad at all in my GN with a 6 pt bar... once you were in the back it was pretty comfy. :kneeslap:

it's not about comfort. it is completely unsafe.

[The_Bishop]

Which is why I'm keeping my build mild. A big part of the enjoyment of my car is taking the family for drives in it and last I checked you can't fit a third person (my daughter) without the rear seats.

[sweetbmxrider]

If I had a family, I'd do just that.

[KirkEvil]

Never mind back seats, Kohler rarely has the front seat in the car. Lettuce be cereal, this is a racecar that is driven on the street. It will need a 10pt or at least a 6pt to sneak by. If you build a car to run 9s you should be ready to give up some safety and comfort on the street.

Install the main hoop far enough back to recline some or get seats with a high back for your dome piece. Either do removable swing outs or copy what I did with the door panels for more room. Wrap the bar in padding around the hoop and sides. Dont be a dumb ass when you do play on the street.

[Mike]

:themayor:One thread talking about no bar and one thread talking about 150mph traps.

[LTb1ow]

:themayor:One thread talking about no bar and one thread talking about 150mph traps.

Do I race officially? No. (IE I am not looking for 100% adherance to NHRA rules being as its a street car before race car)

Is this a race tech area to hash out what safety stuff I need? Yes.

Not sure why I can't plan for MPH and talk about the required safety stuff at the same time.

(And no way in hell that pile is going 150mph)

[LTb1ow]

To bump this back up, prior to hans devices catching on, a harness and helmet was all that you wore. Now, this seems like a great way to snap your neck no?

Harness holds you tight, added weight to head and hello whiplash.

PT thoughts on this Bonzo?

[sweetbmxrider]

Neck collar thing? I have a foam one from old man Bill.

[LTb1ow]

From what I have read, they are a useless piece of equipment meant to satisfy insurance underwriters.

[Mike]

Yeah. Pre Hans is a neck roll

[BonzoHansen]

Technically i think the head rest on the seat stops whiplash - the snap back. look at 60s muscle cars with those low back seats. I'll never have a car with those. I think what you are concerned about it breaking your neck and maybe basal (sp?) skull fracture - ala Dale Earnhardt. I'm not a doctor but i stayed at a holiday inn last month.

All the guys I know who road race seriously run a HANS. If i were at a point where i was wearing a firesuit and running a cage I'd probably consider a HANS a lot

[LTb1ow]

Technically i think the head rest on the seat stops whiplash - the snap back. look at 60s muscle cars with those low back seats. I'll never have a car with those. I think what you are concerned about it breaking your neck and maybe basal (sp?) skull fracture - ala Dale Earnhardt. I'm not a doctor but i stayed at a holiday inn last month.

All the guys I know who road race seriously run a HANS. If i were at a point where i was wearing a firesuit and running a cage I'd probably consider a HANS a lot

Yea, the seat rest will stop you from snapping back but lets say you smack a wall or sudden stop due to whatever, your neck/head/helmet are snapping forward and body is held tight (within some amount) by the harness.

Obviously not all sanctioning bodies say hans is required so just curious on this.

Again, theory talk here.

[Blackbirdws6]

Is it a good idea, sure it is. Do most do it, no. How much do the Hans devices go for these days?

[NJSPEEDER]

Depending on which head and neck restraint you get you are looking at anywhere from $350ish to thousands depending on brand, material, and design. Beyond price you also have to consider how you plan use the device.

Fixed units like the HANS brand restraints are intended for specific ranges of seating position and driver size. Some of the hybrid and Hutchins style devices can be adjusted for various lay backs and neck/upright angles. The only deivce that I believe was designed to be adjusted from the outset is the necksgen sold by Impact.

[WildBillyT]

To bump this back up, prior to hans devices catching on, a harness and helmet was all that you wore. Now, this seems like a great way to snap your neck no?

Harness holds you tight, added weight to head and hello whiplash.

PT thoughts on this Bonzo?

I take it you didn't leave your original belts in? Just checking.

[LTb1ow]

Belts are still in car, prob will leave em.

Just curious really, I mean even racing with full legit NHRA stuff (5pt, helmet, bar) seems like it won't help with neck whiplash if hitting something frontal hard.

[sweetbmxrider]

Belts are still in car, prob will leave em.

Just curious really, I mean even racing with full legit NHRA stuff (5pt, helmet, bar) seems like it won't help with neck whiplash if hitting something frontal hard.

This is true and anything can happen but my thought would be this is less likely to occur. Anything is possible, but I would think lower probability. I guess its up to you how safe you want to be.

[Mike]

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=racing+neck+collar&tag=mh0b-20&index=aps&hvadid=3527273869&hvqmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=t&ref=pd_sl_2uzba2oq4b_b

[NJSPEEDER]

Belts are still in car, prob will leave em.

Just curious really, I mean even racing with full legit NHRA stuff (5pt, helmet, bar) seems like it won't help with neck whiplash if hitting something frontal hard.


Belts and bars were never intended to control head movement in an accident. Bars are for preventing roof crush and intrusion in a wreck and the helment is meant to try to prevent some level of brain scramble in an impact.

If you want to control head movement the only way is with a supplimental restraint.

[LTb1ow]

I understand that, my question is posed towards why its not a huge issue to NHRA etc

[sweetbmxrider]

How high is the risk for a front or rear impact? Its not like you are turning or dealing with cars hitting the brakes.

[Blackbirdws6]

How high is the risk for a front or rear impact? Its not like you are turning or dealing with cars hitting the brakes.

He drives through Lakewood every now and again....:nick:

[LTb1ow]

Side story, coming home on Weds, in gf's civic and coming through Little Israel.. some lady in oncoming lane (in a minivan) decides to suicide abrupt left turn and cut us off, and then proceeds to rock the curb, poor poor tie rods, tire, wheel.. etc..

I laughed at the proving of stereotypes.

/off topic

[BonzoHansen]

He drives through Lakewood every now and again....:nick:

then he needs an exo-cage for, um, crowd control

[Dudbird113]

Driving through laywood is simple, stick to the outskirts unless its friday nite n saturday day haha

[sweetbmxrider]

He drives through Lakewood every now and again....:nick:

I know this is not srs but does he plan on wearing a helmet, hans, and harness every time he drives the car? In the sport of drag racing, I'm just not sold on the need for a hans at this power level AND level of "competition"

[LTb1ow]

I know this is not srs but does he plan on wearing a helmet, hans, and harness every time he drives the car? In the sport of drag racing, I'm just not sold on the need for a hans at this power level AND level of "competition"

Nope. Again, I am asking in theory about the risks of 5pt harness vs 3pt OE belt restraint.

Interesting subject as there is little or no actual testing done to show one is an improvement.

[BonzoHansen]

Interesting subject as there is little or no actual testing done to show one is an improvement.

no testing of what? HANs devices?

[LTb1ow]

no testing of what? HANs devices?

Restraints and roll cages/bars.

At least that I can find.

[sweetbmxrider]

Both belt types will result in whiplash. Probably one of the more common reported injuries that I see along with air bag burns.

[BonzoHansen]

Restraints and roll cages/bars.

At least that I can find.

that you can find is key, at least if I understand your comment correctly. I'd think there has been a lot of crash testing that results in the various sanctioning bodies rules. I don't think they generally make that info public.

[LTb1ow]

that you can find is key, at least if I understand your comment correctly. I'd think there has been a lot of crash testing that results in the various sanctioning bodies rules. I don't think they generally make that info public.

Yes, that is my comment's point.

I am not arguing HANS, 5pt harness, bars,cages etc provide a ton of protection, but I was looking for something more than, "The sanctioning body says you need it, deal with it"

Just interesting that something so important, is so hazy and vague.

[BonzoHansen]

NASCAR did they did a lot of research post-Earnhardt. I think the OEs were involved. that is how they changed their rules, including HANs. Guys sure get out of wicked wrecks in those cars.

I guess you have two choices. have faith in those rules or ignore them because you want to.

[Pampered-Z]

HANS is for 7:49 and quicker. 9.00 to 7:50 is a neck collar. The 5 point will hold you in place if you roll over. you can slide out a standard 3 point in a rollover ( I've done it )

[LTb1ow]

NASCAR did they did a lot of research post-Earnhardt. I think the OEs were involved. that is how they changed their rules, including HANs. Guys sure get out of wicked wrecks in those cars.

I guess you have two choices. have faith in those rules or ignore them because you want to.

That is not my point in all this.

I am looking at how safety systems sanctioning bodies react when subjected to normal driving scenarios.

I meet tech (sorta) as of now, but I am still rocking a heavy helmet and a fixed body, just seems odd that neck issues are not prevalent in this combo.

[BonzoHansen]

I misunderstood. But I very much doubt you will get the answer you are looking for.

[NJSPEEDER]

Multi point harnesses have been proven safer many times in accidents. That's why racing went to them years ago. Also, as long as the system can be clipped and unlocked with one hand it is ADA compliant and considered legal for a passenger vehicle.

On the other hand a roll bar without a helmet is a very real danger in an accident. Tubes are skinny and present a small focal point so even a seemingly light impact will cause more damage than flat or more broadly curbed surfaces.

The SCCA did a writee up about this many many years ago. Can't find it online and I am not in the mood for searching through 20+ years of magazines to find it.

[LTb1ow]

I misunderstood. But I very much doubt you will get the answer you are looking for.

I know, it frustrates me having to go off of "this is what is required, therefore it works" mindset. I can't tell customers that, why can the NHRA get away with it.

Need evidence, studies etc.

I digress.