Brake Upgrade Options

[Blackbirdws6]

It has come time to spend some reasonable coin on a new braking setup for the firebird. It seems the past 2 rentals have been tough on my brakes so it's clear I need a better option. For reference, I upgraded my stock 97 brakes to the new dual piston setup on the 98-02 cars.

I tried NAPA premium blanks and adaptive one ceramic pads. The car proceeded to hot spot the crap out of them. I thought maybe trying a slotted rotor would help dissipate the heat a little better so I tried the Brakemotive setup. The rotors are drilled/slotted and came with ceramic pads. Those got trashed pretty well too at the last track rental but thankfully didn't crack.

It's clear I need to go for a bigger brake package as I think I'm simply overwhelming the stock style brakes with 140mph trap speeds and a 4200lb race weight. I may be able to get away with a good set of blanks with a non-ceramic pad but I'd rather not keep tossing away money on lackluster setups. Going with anything bigger will require new front runners since nothing will tuck behind the 15" Welds.

I've seen folks go to C5/C6/CTSV1/CTSV2 setups but I will admit to being a bit overwhelmed with the options. My street wheels are the 19" CCWs so those should fit just about anything.

Let me know your thoughts.

[BonzoHansen]

You are trying to haul down a somewhat heavy car from high rates of speed. I might give Tobin at Kore3 a call if you want to go with OE options, or look into Baer or Wilwood options. Mind you a change up front may require changes out back to keep braking balance in line, as well as a possible m/c change. If the ABS is still in play that is another layer complexity to consider.

[Blackbirdws6]

I have an email to Sam Strano and will do some of my own homework. The car still has ABS and understand a change to the front may require updates to the rear. I'm trying to weigh out options that will do the job and don't necessarily shatter the piggy bank. I need to budget $ for new front runners too but that's not critical unless I was looking to race earlier in the season which is unlikely. The brakes do not need to be road course worthy.

Driving the HC makes me dislike the braking for everything else I own lol.

[MDSheds_SS]

Parachute FTW! Lol

[Blackbirdws6]

Parachute FTW! Lol

LOL. Don't think the state troopers on 287 would appreciate use of a chute. I like the visual though.

[Featherburner]

LOL. Don't think the state troopers on 287 would appreciate use of a chute. I like the visual though.I'll put in a good word with the Troopers. Hell, they may pull over and help you repack it on the shoulder.:rofl:

[Blackbirdws6]

I'll put in a good word with the Troopers. Hell, they may pull over and help you repack it on the shoulder.:rofl:

Perfect :rofl:. I'd guess they help me pack and then have a flat bed come by to impound it. Worth it?

Scott - I've been doing some more reading and it seems a better brake package on the rear of these cars can cause all sorts of fun issues so most folks focus on the front.

[BonzoHansen]

You need a team!

http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/az13_batmobile_07-580x346.jpeg

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/3165355/bat-chute-pickup-service-o.gif

[BonzoHansen]

Perfect :rofl:. I'd guess they help me pack and then have a flat bed come by to impound it. Worth it?

Scott - I've been doing some more reading and it seems a better brake package on the rear of these cars can cause all sorts of fun issues so most folks focus on the front.

What problems? What did they do, just upgrade the back?

[unstable bob gable]

A Queen Mary sized anchor maybe?

[Blackbirdws6]

What problems? What did they do, just upgrade the back?

Pads kicking back, shuddering etc. This was with an upgrade up front.

A Queen Mary sized anchor maybe?

Roads are bad enough in NJ. I don't want to make them worse.

[BonzoHansen]

Pads kicking back, shuddering etc. This was with an upgrade up front.


not sure what the shuddering thing is about, pad knock back is something you typically talk about when turning corners. that is why open track cars are serious auto crossers are using full floaters instead of c-clip setups. I've never heard drag racers talk about that much, but could I suppose. But your current brakes will do that too, they are not immune to knock back because they are stock or small. You should talk to pros for their opinion. You do not have a typical interweb car.

You run a dana 60 rear? what ends are on them, GM?

[Blackbirdws6]

It's just what I read so I'm not making any claims of real knowledge here. S60 just has backing plates for the factory 93-97 calipers.

Strano got back to me with some questions so we will see where it goes. I will send a few more messages this evening.

[LTb1ow]

And don't forget to toss in the massive weight transfer you get when your car dives on heavy braking. I know you are trying to fix that via heavier springs but thats something that can't be overlooked either.

[Blackbirdws6]

Yup. Good point.

Strano got back to me and I'm not sure if he is trying to just get me out of his hair or is legitimately providing sound advice. He basically said a set of better pads would be his solution. I thought I was pretty clear with everything and told him I understood that with better breaking comes noise and dust.

I'm sure non ceramic pads will help but I guess I expected a more thorough answer.

[WildBillyT]

What do the rear brakes look like? Are they roasted too?

[Blackbirdws6]

What do the rear brakes look like? Are they roasted too?

Rear brakes look normal.

[BonzoHansen]

Id personally call Tobin at kore3 and wilwood and get their $0.02

[TaKid455]

Wilwood has a setup that fits behind 15" rims.

The V setup seems to be the most liked and best bang for the buck.

I run the C6Z brakes on the 78 TA and they are awesome. Huge improvement over the C5 setup. I do have pad knock back on the rear due to C clip axles which will be addressed in the future via installing floating axle ends.

High speed( such as velocities you mentioned) aggressive stops are not an issue. I worry more about the people behind me stopping in time than me hitting the people in front.

GM calipers, Hawk pads and DBA rotors. I'd switch to an aggressive pad and cheap stock blank rotor for track days.

Tobin & I have done a good bit of business together.

[unstable bob gable]

I've had very good luck with EBC pads. I run the Yellows on my Viper truck, and reds on my R/T. Hell I'm even going to throw a set of Reds on the front of my 2 Dolla Cavalier even though the pads are worth more then the car. Lol

[Blackbirdws6]

Id personally call Tobin at kore3 and wilwood and get their $0.02

I will be making a few calls this week if I get a moment. It's no rush since I rarely race in the warmer months anyway.

Wilwood has a setup that fits behind 15" rims.

The V setup seems to be the most liked and best bang for the buck.

I run the C6Z brakes on the 78 TA and they are awesome. Huge improvement over the C5 setup. I do have pad knock back on the rear due to C clip axles which will be addressed in the future via installing floating axle ends.

High speed( such as velocities you mentioned) aggressive stops are not an issue. I worry more about the people behind me stopping in time than me hitting the people in front.

GM calipers, Hawk pads and DBA rotors. I'd switch to an aggressive pad and cheap stock blank rotor for track days.

Tobin & I have done a good bit of business together.

Once I have all the options laid out clearly, I will see what makes the most sense. Good brakes I consider to be generally a safety item but it's more needed for 1/4 mile passes. I horse around on the highway but I'm no 1320 video star.

I've had very good luck with EBC pads. I run the Yellows on my Viper truck, and reds on my R/T. Hell I'm even going to throw a set of Reds on the front of my 2 Dolla Cavalier even though the pads are worth more then the car. Lol

I had EBC greens a while back. They were fine but the car was much slower then.

[WildBillyT]

Rear brakes look normal.

Not trying to complicate things, but if it's nose diving maybe an adjustable prop valve would help?

[The_Bishop]

Here's an off the wall question: Are you breaking in the pads correctly?

See here: https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=6446_6443

[unstable bob gable]

Ya might also consider cryogenically treating whatever new brake items you try. I've heard a lot of positive things due to the treatment.

[SS Performance]

Wilwood offers several options.

They have pads of several compounds for different applications as well as brake kits,

They have kits with different rotor sizes that will fit with 15 inch wheels.

If you go with a brake kit, regardless of manufacturer, I would stay away from cross drilled rotors. On vented rotor they tend to develop crack due to not having the insides chamfered.

Good luck
Craig

[Blackbirdws6]

For those following along, here is a pic of the rotor.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w170/bmdeluca/The%20Bird/The%20Rebuild/0412161936_zpsxgv917hy.jpg (http://s176.photobucket.com/user/bmdeluca/media/The%20Bird/The%20Rebuild/0412161936_zpsxgv917hy.jpg.html)

Not trying to complicate things, but if it's nose diving maybe an adjustable prop valve would help?

The soft front springs and heavy nose result in all the dive under braking. I have my shocks at full compression and it doesn't really matter. I have a new set of front springs I will put in sometime soon. It won't solve the issue but it should help.

Here's an off the wall question: Are you breaking in the pads correctly?

See here: https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=6446_6443

I followed the break in procedures for every set I've owned. The issue I'm hearing is the ceramic pads simply can't tolerate the rather instant/rapid heat when I brake from a 1/4 run.

Ya might also consider cryogenically treating whatever new brake items you try. I've heard a lot of positive things due to the treatment.

Never heard of that but I will look into it.

Wilwood offers several options.

They have pads of several compounds for different applications as well as brake kits,

They have kits with different rotor sizes that will fit with 15 inch wheels.

If you go with a brake kit, regardless of manufacturer, I would stay away from cross drilled rotors. On vented rotor they tend to develop crack due to not having the insides chamfered.

Good luck
Craig

Thanks Craig. I didn't think the drilled rotors would give me any benefit but they only came this way from Brakemotive. I actually only wanted slots. I will be contacting the bigger name companies to see what they offer. If I can keep my front drag wheels and get reasonable braking, it will save me $1,400.

[SS Performance]

The basic rule for rotor sizes is 3 inches less than wheel diameter. So you should be good up to about 12 inch rotors. Some wheels might allow a little bit more but you should be safe with 12's. There should be a good selection in that size that will work with your budget.

Good luck
Craig

[Blackbirdws6]

So here is the rundown of options after speaking with a few vendors. In general, the consensus is that while the rotors could be more efficient, the pads are likely the culprit since they are not able to withstand the heat. Going with a big brake setup won't result in necessarily better braking with the drag setup since I only have so much tire to work with. This was a good point made by Kore3.

Strano:
Try new pads that can take the heat. He recommended Hawk HP+ front pads and HPS 5.0's for the rear.

Kore3:
Better pads would help but the next good option is a front C6 caliper, good rotors and pads. They sell the kit for about $700 and it would work well with the stock rear calipers. The nice thing is that all of the parts are off the shelf sans the new brackets. He advised if I have the 93-97 spindles that it would be best to mod them versus doing the same to a set of 98-02 spindles. The 98-02 spindles could be resold easier if unmolested of course. I would be looking at another $1,400 for new front wheels.

Stoptech
Better pads would be a good first step but they would be happy to sell me a big brake kit. They did have an interesting thought of running a decent street pad and then switching pads before I head to the track. It's not a terrible idea since I would prefer less dust during street duty.

Wilwood
These folks have a new brake caliper/rotor setup that will fit under a 15" wheel but it's mainly labeled for drag use. I'd still have to check if they would clear my 15" Welds if I went this route. They sell bigger brake setups but you are still confined to their products.

To start, I think I will try a new set of pads and see how I like them. If I find it just doesn't work, I will make it rain on some new parts.

The question now becomes which pads I try.

[Dudbird113]

Drop a boat anchor out window? If you got the money strange brakes or something along those lines

[TaKid455]

I agree with Tobin. Was going to state that in my earlier response. Your seeing high heat for a brief period of time for a single use vs repeated on road course. Experiment with $$$ rotors and cheapos. Easy to change out.

I run Hawk HP+ and like them. They a little dusty. Gunmetal rims hide lots of it.

[Blackbirdws6]

Drop a boat anchor out window? If you got the money strange brakes or something along those lines

Strange brakes are drag oriented so those would not be ideal for primary street use. I already have a boat anchor in the front of the car. :bertstare:

I agree with Tobin. Was going to state that in my earlier response. Your seeing high heat for a brief period of time for a single use vs repeated on road course. Experiment with $$$ rotors and cheapos. Easy to change out.

I run Hawk HP+ and like them. They a little dusty. Gunmetal rims hide lots of it.

That's what I'm thinking. Try different pads and just accept the dust. If I ruin another set of rotors/pads, then I will just need to spend the coin on something bigger. In reality, the brakes really only need to haul me down once from high speed. I'm no 1320 video highway star so I do not need anything real crazy.

[qwikz28]

I think you should come take a look at my setup before making a decision. I have a Wilwood 4 piston setup and LS1 rear brakes. I had the toughest time figuring out why the brakes sucked when I got them. Had a long thread about bleeding the brakes because I just couldn't figure it out. Turned out to be the pads, as once I put in Wilwood's race pad, the car stopped so well that it would hurt your chest if the pads got hot and you didn't modulate properly. It's not for everyone, but it offers flexibility you don't get from stock style brakes, but there are some pros and cons to consider.

Also, Wilwood makes a bolt on kit for C5 Vettes that could be used on our cars with brackets. That will save you a good chunk of change.

[Blackbirdws6]

I think you should come take a look at my setup before making a decision. I have a Wilwood 4 piston setup and LS1 rear brakes. I had the toughest time figuring out why the brakes sucked when I got them. Had a long thread about bleeding the brakes because I just couldn't figure it out. Turned out to be the pads, as once I put in Wilwood's race pad, the car stopped so well that it would hurt your chest if the pads got hot and you didn't modulate properly. It's not for everyone, but it offers flexibility you don't get from stock style brakes, but there are some pros and cons to consider.

Also, Wilwood makes a bolt on kit for C5 Vettes that could be used on our cars with brackets. That will save you a good chunk of change.

I'm not counting out the Wilwoods but I think it's worth messing with a different pad on my current setup. If I need a bit more, then I will weigh the options of a different rotor/caliper/pad.

[qwikz28]

Makes sense. Just figured I'd throw that out there before you called an audible and splurged on a new kit.

Just an FYI, 98-02 backing plates are near impossible to come by in new condition these days. If you are even considering it, keep an eye out sooner rather than later.

[Blackbirdws6]

Makes sense. Just figured I'd throw that out there before you called an audible and splurged on a new kit.

Just an FYI, 98-02 backing plates are near impossible to come by in new condition these days. If you are even considering it, keep an eye out sooner rather than later.

Is there a real benefit to swapping in the LS1 rears?

[qwikz28]

I don't know. I'm sure others would chime in. Just a heads up from what I know.

[Blackbirdws6]

I don't know. I'm sure others would chime in. Just a heads up from what I know.

I appreciate the feedback on the Wilwood setup. I may take you up on checking those if I get antsy and looking to pull the trigger.