vehicle prep and upgrades PRIOR to next years 500hp sbc with N20 engine swap

[IROCZman15]

Hey guys, I figured I would put this topic out there to the group to see about getting some advice and input from you guys about my plans to take the car to the next level. I won’t have the budget to buy my new engine package this winter, but I am certain that right around this time next year, I’ll be ordering up the engine that this car needs. My plans are for a gen 1 style small block chevrolet with a modern efi setup on it. I will absolutely NOT be going with any type of LS style setup. I am uninterested, so please don’t mention LS to me. That is not the type of engine I want under the hood for a plethora of reasons. Also, please don't freak out and shout at me about how there are cheaper options out there.. feel free to show me, but please don't get amped up about stuff, or my $spending.. unless I am totally misguided.

Sorry this is a long post with lots of writing, but I’m just putting it all out there.
I am pretty dead set on the major components/features of the engine, and have been sourcing out crate engines and long blocks, across the net, as well as reading many forum posts, reviews, magazine articles, and product information. I want a Dart SHP block, forged crank and pistons, roller cam and rocker setup, great cylinder heads, topped with a Holley Sniper Efi system (or FiTech), and capable of taking 200 wet shots of N20 with ease(on a carb style plate). The goal is for naturally aspirated 500+ hp/tq at the flywheel, supplemented with the N20 on track days. Engine has to be relaible, and not just for racing.. I drive the car all over and it has to be able to handle 4+ hour long trips. I want something a little more than a 383, so I have been looking at 406, 421, 427, 434 cid packages.

Here is my top choice:
http://www.nyesautomotive.net/406_525hp_EFI.html
This is my second choice, however with the Efi instead of the carb setup in the link. http://enginefactory.com/434CSB575HP.htm
That company is very local to me here in NJ and I stopped by their shop last month to discuss broad details and even brought the car for them to look over.

I have several other similar engine options, but that is not the primary focus of this thread. What my goal is here, is to ask for some ideas/input on modifications and upgrades I can/should do to the car PRIOR to dropping in the engine.

In a nutshell, the car has a crate 350 longblock that I was stuck getting back in HS when I blew up the old 305. It is dead on reliable, but very underpowered. I have a “Pro Street” 700R4 transmission package from Dana at Pro Built Automatics and an Edge racing 2,600 rpm converter. Those were brand new as of October 2016. Unfortunately just October of this year, it started acting up on the 3-4 shift, so just this past Sunday I removed the transmission, and will be shipping it back to Dana for a refresh, which is covered under his 18 month warranty. The package was rated to 675 hp/tq, but I might maybe have him upgrade it to the 750 hp package. Maybe. The rear will be the weak point of the powertrain after the engine is done, but I can live with that until it blows, and get a 12 bolt from moser, strange or currie. It is currently the stock axle housing with 3.73 richmond gears and a posi unit.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/540/32732064406_4493611981_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RSqoo3)DSCN5056 (https://flic.kr/p/RSqoo3) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

The car has a S&W racing subframe connector kit welded in, along with their torque arm and its relocation mount. Fully adjustable front and rear suspension parts from UMI performace. Upgraded front and rear brakes are from Ed Miller at flynbye, 13” up front and 12” out back (C4HD setup, PBR calipers, raybestos rotors, braided lines). The front is lowered on 2” lowering spindles, and all corners have MOOG springs. Shocks struts are curretly Tokico adjustables, but those are coming out in January and some Koni yellows are going in. The car weighs 3,422 pounds as of August this year, and that is with a full tank of gas and full tank of nitrous, but without me in it. 18x8 “ and 18x10” Boze forged aluminum wheels with Nitto 555 tires that are good enough to last me one more full year. Removed heat and air conditioning, MSD Digital 6 ignition control box, line lock, deleted smog setup, radiator is 8 years old but always flushed clean, auxillary transmission cooler, full interior with sound system, Dyno Dons coated headers and y-pipe ( I think 1.75” headers ??), to a hooker 3” cat back exhaust with an electric cut out along the main-pipe.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/600/32619573632_a41b8db363_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RGtQMW)DSCN2436 (https://flic.kr/p/RGtQMW) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/768/32619560422_7611322824_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RGtLSb)DSCN3130 (https://flic.kr/p/RGtLSb) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr


So, with all of the above being mentioned, I am looking to tackle some of the modifications that the new powerplant will need, over this winter. The car is currently up 24” of the ground (in my garage), since I just removed the transmission and driveshaft two days ago. I am wondering what I can do now.

Fuel system:
The new engine will certainly require me to upgrade my fuel system, especially the in-tank pump. After some research, if I wasn’t using the wet nitrous shot, I probably would be fine with a 255lph pump. I’d rather not risk running out of fuel though, so I am thinking… just go with one rated at 340lph like the aeromotive one: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-11569/overview/year/1987/make/chevrolet/model/camaro
…. My question is, if I were to put this (or any other recommended pump) in the car now would it wreak havoc on my current fuel system and TPI?? Or would it just work as normal and return unused fuel back to the tank like the current/stock setup? Could anything be damaged? Should I do the fuel pump now since the car is up in the air, driveshaft is out, and I will be taking down the rear-end soon to install Koni Yellow shocks anyways? I also run a Holley AFPR on the Tpi set in the neighborhood of 49psi if memory serves me correctly. Also, how about fuel lines? Should I be looking to upgrade my fuel lines for a bigger diameter feed/return line? If so, how will this work at the tank bulkhead area ?

Trans:
Mentioned above, can go more into details if needed. Should be back in about 4-6 weeks either with a freshened up 675 hp limit or with an upgraded 750hp limit.

Driveshaft:
Stock steel one currently, won’t last long, so I will eventually destroy it with the new engine, and end up ordering a performance one from Denny’s or elsewhere

Rear end:
Would love to install a 12 bolt this year, but might not be able to budget $ for it. Also, slightly curious to see how long the 10 bolt might last with the new engine next year. Could probably order one from strange,currie,moser and keep it off in the corner of the garage for when the 10 bolt falls apart though. Not sure if I want to go with a ford 9” though.

Exhaust:
Kinda skeptical about the inside dimensions of the headers and hooker 3” setup choking the new engine. Maybe I could keep the headers, and then eliminate the y pipe and have a true-dual 2.5” setup fabricated ? not sure that I should do that now though with the current weak 350 ? that would be overkill and prob hurt performance

Cooling:
While the car never has overheating issues, it might be a good idea to get a head-start on this maybe. The radiator is a stock replacement style, and has been in the car for 8 years. Every two years I drain it, and drain the block by taking out the knock sensor. I do a flush job and refill. Everything comes out clean-ish. Water pump is stock. 180 degree thermostat. BOTH puller fans are wired to spin anytime the ignition is on. Should I invest in a bigger aluminum radiator or hold off? I’d like to reuse the dual puller fans, and I’ll probably just end up putting them on a toggle switch to a relay that I can control from the dashboard. The new engine will come with a water pump on it already.

Pulleys and accessories:
I have the option with the engine shop in NJ to have a set of March pulleys and brackets put on. Their price is expensive though. My stock PS pump and reservoir is doing just fine. I run a 140 amp chrome powermaster alternator that is 2 years old and working great. I could reuse those I would think? I have a Hitachi high-torque mini starter too that I could reuse as well.

Roll Cage:
With the power that the new engine setup will put down, I would hope to be running below the 11.49 second mark, which would mean that I am required to have at least a 4 point roll bar setup to run at Englishtown, Island, Atco etc. I will never be doing an 8 point cage, and the most I would ever do is a 6 point setup with door bar swingouts. Stopped by ProFab Chassisworks here in Nj and they quoted me $2,200 as a starting price! With options closer to $3,000..and at that point I said to myself, that $ would much better be spent a full 12 bolt rear end instead. So, yea, I’ll need a age, but I might wait until I am required to have it, since having this car with a weak 350 and a cage really isnt a cool vibe.

Wheels tires:
Tough one here….I love my wheel setup but they are heavy and too pretty to beat to hell in any type of drag/road course racing or autoX. I will need 4 new tires on these at the end of next year, probably a 200 treadwear nitto, bfgoodrich, or falken. For specific drag racing, maybe I’ll find a light set of centerline convo pros but they would have to be 17” diameter to clear the C4HD brake setups. Might wait on this until the car is setup, running, and already making passes.


What else am I forgetting here?? I know I typed a LOT, but I wanted to put it all on the table, so hopefully I can map out a well thought out plan of attack. Since the car is up in the air and not going anywhere for a good 3 months.. I want to tackle anything I can (within reason) to get the ball rolling in the right direction for 500+ hp in winter of 2018/19.



https://farm1.staticflickr.com/256/32773001535_17426a2ff8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RW3cyB)DSCN4291 (https://flic.kr/p/RW3cyB) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4380/36931844195_a032d46204_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YgxmAp)IMG_7519 (https://flic.kr/p/YgxmAp) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4380/37099178492_3e77b892c7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YwjZfu)David-Martin-1987-Chevrolet-Camaro-DriveOPTIMA-NJMP-2017_184 (https://flic.kr/p/YwjZfu) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

[Blackbirdws6]

First off hats to you for a well detailed first post of this thread. Without a specific budget, it's tough to tell you exactly what to do but here would be my recommendations.

- Check over your motor and trans mounts while everything is going to be out. It is the best time to replace them of course.

- Upgrade the trans to the 750HP level now. No sense going with a 500HP engine and hitting it with a 200 shot when the trans won't be able to handle it. That would be spending money twice.

- Spend the money on a rear and driveshaft so you can feel confident that if you have the bite, it shouldn't break.

- Skip the roll bar for now unless you think there is a chance it will roll over lol. Let them kick you out at the track first.

- If the 3rd gen fuel lines are basically the same size as the 4th gens, I don't see you needing to upgrade them. I'm still on stock lines from the tank but admittedly at the limit of my fuel system. I would go with the bigger pump though just to plan ahead a touch.

- Leave the wheels alone for now. Get the car running and driving the way you want, then worry about the jewelry.

Your cars looks phenomenal so if you give it a nice drivetrain refresh for next season, that will keep it fresh to you for the coming year. Then you can decide how much further down the rabbit hole you wish to go.

[wretched73]

You'll want bigger headers for sure, 1 7/8" would be the min.

And without a budget, its impossible to give you direction on the motor. You're going to need a lot of cubes to reliably meet your need.

Something like this- http://www.shafiroff.com/drag-race-nitrous/434-small-block-drag-race.php

[Blackbirdws6]

How about well proven, forged LTx engine that is ready for some nitrous?

[sweetbmxrider]

I think the trans is still going to be an issue. I would seriously consider other options like th400, t56, 4l80, etc.

The 340 needs all the wiring upgraded, including inside the tank through the bulkhead. Racetronix had stuff for 4th gens, maybe they have something for you or you can adapt a kit to work. Maybe even change to a 4th gen steel or plastic tank, you'd have to look into that though.

You are looking at a 5 point roll bar. That means a driver side door bar. It can be a swing out or fixed. I went swing out so I could remove it for street use. I would definitely wait as long as you can before putting one in though unless you love the idea and know you'll use the car enough to warrant it.

Are you sticking with drag racing or going around corners too?

How about well proven, forged LTx engine that is ready for some nitrous?

Oh no he didn't :rofl: Its not nitrous ready btw

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

What about CTW wheels for racing? But based on your priorities and gameplan I wouldn't think that should be top of your list but it may behoove you to keep an eye out for a sale.

I would absolutely upgrade the trans for 750 given your plans, it'll be way cheaper and easier now than later!

Did you speak with Josh @ JSP? Aside from his own cars, he has built a lot of powerful yet reliable cars that go long distance, especially in third gens :wink:

[PolarBear]

LSx ALL TEH THINGS!!!!

But in all seriousness, lol. I would go for the Holley over the FiTech, these is little to no support for FiTech, you heard the guy this summer with the Chevelle. Customworks can get you a great price, and he does phone support too.

As for the fuel pump and lines, I think the stock lines are going to be good for 700ish horse? There is a calculation somewhere, but you should be good there. Also if you think you need a bigger pump, put it in now, it isn't going to mess with the TPI since the FPR handles the flow, you may need to tweak your fuel pressure though, not sure on that.

I would also recommend you go to Josh for basically everything else you have mentioned, especially the rear. I know he sells one of them, but I forget which.

Also, your short tube headers are probably going to hold you back more than the 1 3/4" tubes, You would gain a little with the 1 7/8, but I think you would gain more from long tubes over the shorts, but I may be wrong.

Are you sticking with drag racing or going around corners too?

He is definitely going around corners too

[IROCZman15]

Brian: thanks. I will certainly inspect and replace the engine mounts net year when the old one comes out. easy enough. the trans mount is good. only 14 months old. just looked at it yesterday. I agree, to skip doin the rollbar setup ahead of time and wait until it is absolutely necessary. the $, the weight, the extra limitations to interior free movement etc. If I can budget $ or work a crap ton of overtime before March, maybe I can afford to do a driveshaft and rear end. the driveshaft from Denny's will be around $600 and the rear setup would be another $2,800 ish. Also definitely holding off on the wheels since that will be an expensive endeavor and the main focus i to get the car prepped for the engine power level, and then rework things from there. and with that, I tank you for letting me know that your fuel lines are stock and with your power level and fuel demands that is peace of mind for me.

wretched: also thanks. I agree that I should plan on doing the headers. bummer, these are in such good condition, but to do it correctly, a header and 2.5" dual exhaust system will have to be budgeted for. Ive also spent a good bit of time browsing on the Shaffiroff site and all of their stuff is way too high dollar and too high horsepower for a street/strip setup like I am going for

Adam, you are correct about the fuel system wiring needing to be upgraded. I did read about that on thirdgen.org a while back too I forgot to mention in. I think you are correct that there are wiring kits available, so i'l plan on that. I thought you had someone interested in your LT engine a few months ago? I think regarding the transmission, that since my current one is fixable under warranty for free, i'll send it out and have it upgraded to be the 750 horsepower capable one. IF for some wild reason that fails, i'll move in another direction, most likely turbo400. I do like hte overdrive of the 700r4, especially for long trips out to Carlisle, and maryland, upstate NY, etc. I'm also in agreement about the swingouts. I would keep them removed for most of the driving, and just put them in at the track. but as mentioned above, i'll save $ and weight now, and only do the cage when absolutely necessary. I think I can get Ted from our LeMons team to weld in the cage, he does good work. If not, i'll see if Pro Fab Chassisworks has wiggle room in their price. My other option is to go out to S&W Racecars in PA (actually only 10 minute drive from my wife's parents house!!) and see if they would weld in and certify the 6 point setup. shall see

Nick, good idea. I had not thought of Josh at JS Performance. Maybe i'll send him an email, and point him towards reading this thread. If he is able to build something like I mentioned above, that could be possible. It is a bit of a drive(compared to "the engine factory" which is over in Lebanon NJ) , but if price is drastically different for the same power/reliability/workmanship/parts I could do that. CTW could be good for wheels too. That will wait as you mentioned.

bear: I do remember what he (Brian Coyle) was saying about his FiTech setup and lacck of tech help trobleshooting it... I subscribe to Holley's youtube videos and have read a lot in magazines and online about their Sniper efi system and I am definitely drawn mostly to that. I like the touch screen handheld display for the dashboard and their video tutorials. They even have one that is built to work alongside nitrous setups. They also have fuel pumps in 255lph. I think walboro and Aeromotive are the only ones I've seen with the 340lph. Good to hear that I can reuse my oem lines. I'll do a bit more research too. As for longtubes, you are right, and thats probably what i'll need. I gotta do some solid research there and find ones that wont be too low, since my car is pretty low already up front. Then I could go over to that place that has been mentioned on this board before (bergen county) and have them fab up a true dual exhaust with x pipe, muffler and tips out the back. shoot, that will have to wait until the engine is in also. Wondering if i could use my current exhaust with the new engine for testing purposes and to get it up to the shop for the exhaust install.

and yes. I do plan on doing BOTH drag racing and corner carving. more autocross, because the only road-course track I know of locally is NJMP and thats kinda far to be running in multiple times a year. I am only 20 mins from island dragway.

[LTb1ow]

I would highly recommend getting rid of the 60e or getting the best that is covered under your warranty and roll the dice.

For every one person that says their 60e lasts race after race and no freshens up needed, there are twenty that blow up after one or two hard launches. If you get a EFI system like Holley or MS, you can run a 80e which gets you OD with a solid trans. (just don't get one rated at 750fwhp and make 750wtq :rofl:)

With regards to the EFI system, make sure you get one that is either easy for you to learn how to operate, or has solid local support for tuning. You will be past the mail order level of tune IMO.

[BonzoHansen]

bear: I do remember what he (Brian Coyle) was saying about his FiTech setup and lack of tech help troubleshooting it...

Last I saw he took his EFITech out. It was fighting him at the UMI event in August.

[TaKid455]

Why not use EFI connection setup? Uses all over the counter GM sensors and controlled by the E38 or 411 ECUs. Can readily tune the fuel & spark curves/ tables via HP tuners. Can also control your trans. I know a guy that can build a solid 4l60. Got one in the works for a torquey 2nd gen.

Can go too big on the fuel pumps within reason as the system is regulated. Upgrade to 14 GA wire and 20 A fuse w/ relay. OE lines are fine.

BOTH puller fans are wired to spin anytime the ignition is on. NOOOOO!!!

Should I invest in a bigger aluminum radiator or hold off? I’d like to reuse the dual puller fans, and I’ll probably just end up putting them on a toggle switch to a relay that I can control from the dashboard. -

I have a solution for this. Not cheap, but solid.

Rears - Go for the 9" and call it a day.

[BonzoHansen]

I agree, fans on all the time is not great idea. I'm running a mishimoto rad (Josh is a dealer) in the Z, with 4th gen fans, a DCC fan controller and a stewart water pump. Never gets hot, not ridiculous in price. Depending on EFI setup you go with you can probably use that for fan control as well.

Most third gen tanks are unbaffled right? Given the usage you might want to look into more modern setup. Depending on the EFI route you go would a 4th gen plastic tank and fuel module be a reasonable step up?

Dave, this would be way easier over some beers :)

[PolarBear]

Why not use EFI connection setup?

He would wind up spending a LOT more on the EFI setup because, I believe, he is thinking TBI for the injection, not port over the Holley.

Dave, you can also wire your fans to come on at specific temps with the Holley or a 24x setup, so you wouldn't HAVE to change them if you don't want

Also, Josh can do pretty good on driveshafts. I got more for less than than what you're saying here, so I would check him out on that too

Last I saw he took his EFITech out. It was fighting him at the UMI event in August.

He seemed set on keeping it, but he also said the phone support sucked. What I got from him was basically, if you have any issues with it you have to figure it out on your own because they either can't, or won't help.

I cringe any time I see people buying them now, not just from Brian, but also form Customworks. IMO the ONLY thing the FiTech has going for it, is price, and I think you're getting what you pay for here.

Most third gen tanks are unbaffled right? Given the usage you might want to look into more modern setup. Depending on the EFI route you go would a 4th gen plastic tank and fuel module be a reasonable step up?

I think maybe 91 and 92 were the only years for the baffled tanks, and they're not really that great. The 4th gen tank is almost as close to a bolt in as you can get, especially if you're running "returnless". All I had to do was modify the fuel filter bracket and everything screwed together with the 4th gen fuel filter

[LTb1ow]

Why not a nice hogged out single plane, plate kit and a swept elbow to a LSX throttle body? Run a 0411 PCM and have the advantage of HPT etc for local support.

[wretched73]

Why not a nice hogged out single plane, plate kit and a swept elbow to a LSX throttle body? Run a 0411 PCM and have the advantage of HPT etc for local support.

Or this

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/EDL-7137.jpg?rep=True

Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifolds 7137

[IROCZman15]

bit of an update:

I have been hard at it with research, emails, and planning . If only I had a lot of extra $... everything would be happening this calendar year, but since I don't, I have to plan things out sensibly.

I have exchanged emails with Nyes engines, Ohio Crankshafts, FiTech, Racetronix, and a few others. I am pretty damn certain I will be going with a 406, 421, or 434 gen 1 SBC with the Holley Sniper EFI system and a nitrous plate. I can buy it now via credit card and some of my car-fund savings account, but I am going to hold off and see what else I can get accomplished in the meantime.

The transmission will be getting shipped out on Thursday for a teardown and refresh, along with upgrading it to the 750 hp level offered by ProBuilt automatics (i still have to confirm this with Dana, but it is my plan). Probably will take about a month for a tunraround, but thats ok with me as long as it is done the best it can possibly be.

Fuel system: Racetonix offers the FULL wiring upgrade kit that I would need, including relays, grounds, power wire to alternator etc. http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPWH-005&eq=&Tp=
I checked flow ratings and horsepower ratings and I am confident that an Aeromotive 340 lph in-tank fuel pump will be just what I need for the 525hp +200 wet shot.
https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/product/340-fuel-pump-gm/
I will need to plumb in a separate fuel pressure regulator for just the nitrous feed line later on, but that is once the new engine and n20plate is in and operational. Much research has shown that my factory fuel lines do have the proper diameter and flow to support my upcoming fuel demands so the main lines under the car will be staying.
Also, to solve my infrequent fuel starvation(when racing only)issues I had a few options, but I am pretty sure I want to go with the Holley Hydramat product. probably this one: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/hydramat/hydramats/parts/16-104
or the 15"x15" version. anyone have any input on this? the only thing I am curious about, is how I am going to attach it to the new aeromotive pump inlet...and how I am going to do this when the assembly is INSIDE the tank hole..?
Therefore soon i will be ordering the racetronix hot-wire kit and the Aeromotive 340lph pump and the Holley Hydramat. Anyone have any last minute words of advice on that???

Yesterday I ordered the Koni Yellow struts and shocks from Founders performance. They called me today to let me know the rears were out of stock for a few weeks, but that is fine with me. I went with the 3rd gen front struts and the 4th gen rear shocks because the 4th gen shocks are ON-CAR adjustable...where the 3rd gen style shocks need to be removed from the car for any adjustment.

My MSD Digital 6+ ignition box is at MSD getting tested and repaired.

I got one wheel fixed that had very minor curb rash on it, but it was enough to bother me. USA wheels in Fairfield NJ did it for about $160

I will be holding off on ordering a driveshaft, rear axle assembly, roll bar, wheels, tires, and instead leaving the $ in my car-fund bank account so it can go directly towards the engine payment.

I will be removing the whole rear axle from the car when I drop the fuel tank to upgrade the pump. I want to pull out both axle shafts and install longer wheel studs. For full lug-nut engagement, I still can go another 1.5 full threads...so I'd rather be safe than sorry and just do it. I think these are the correct ones, but i will double check my measurments:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-7708
http://www.jegs.com/i/ARP/070/100-7708/10002/-1


I also emailed Josh at JS Perfrmance, but have yet to hear back. That is fine with me since it has been the holidays and people get busy.


That is it for now. If anyone has any input on the wheel studs, racetronix hotwire fuel pump wiring kit, aeromotive 340 fuel pump, holley hydramat, or anything else...feel free to let me hear it. I will probably order some of this stuff mid week next week.

[PolarBear]

The Ractronix wiring looks like outside the tank only, not sure if you were going to upgrade in the tank too. And while you're ordering from Racetronix, why wouldn't you just order one of their pumps or dual pump setups? They may have a solution to connect the hydramat, maybe?

Studs look right, but you should measure the knurl diameter, that is really the important measurement, but I think those are the same ones I bought too.

I don't know if Josh gets around to email too much, best to call him.

[PolarBear]

F-ing computers

[IROCZman15]

cool man thanks.

I just now checked my spam email folder and found that Josh did email me. Excellent. !


I'll double check the knurl on the studs yup.

I thought about a dual pump setup... read a few things about how if one pump fails at WOT and the other one is still running, can cause a ultra lean condition and lean pop the engine. Id rather have a total single pump failure and just stall out instead of a short lived lean condition and catastrophic failure. I could go with the Racetronix pump.. are they as reliable and well built as the aeromotive and walboros ? I am still waiting on an email back from Racetronix where I ask them if the fuel pump wiring kit is ALL inclusive. Ill send another email in a few days if I dont hear back by then

[sweetbmxrider]

Aeromotive, hands down. Just make sure ALL wiring is upgraded.

[LTb1ow]

I know it's gonna be a wet system but I just do not believe a single 340 can do what you are asking.

I would recommend a separate tank up front for the nitrous system and leave the in tank pump for motor only

[Joey D]

Dave, LSX ALLLLLLLLL DAY

[IROCZman15]

it has been a while since I updated this but I wanted to get some work done to show for it before posting individual updates all the time. also I was busy for several weeks installing a very complex drop-ceiling in my basement and running electrical wiring, then installing can-less LED recessed lighting. now that that is done, my attention can swing back to the car projects.
Here is a rundown of where I stand along with some photos. (Don't anybody give me a hard time about the car on concrete blocks, there are also 4 jackstands under there as well. It is mighty well supported. the end.)


The transmission is still in Georgia, but as of a few days ago the builder had it all disassembled and found a piece of metal that was holding a plunger in place. I'm no transmission guru but he told me that this caused some scuffing on a plate and possibly could have caused the 3-4 clutches to not work properly. While it is there he is installing a few more parts that will make this trans capable of holding 750-800 flywheel horsepower.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4797/40564297721_e01a5ec2db_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24NwCtt)IMG_0522 (https://flic.kr/p/24NwCtt) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4663/40521715982_cd2da2ea66_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24JLopy)IMG_0482 (https://flic.kr/p/24JLopy) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4778/40521715572_01a285d281_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24JLohu)IMG_0746 (https://flic.kr/p/24JLohu) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr


I decided that since I was taking out the fuel tank to install the 340lph pump, as well as doing the larger wiring upgrade, I might as well increase the fuel feed/return lines and go with braided. After emails with Holley, aeromotive, racetronix, etc etc I was told that the Holley Hydramat would not work with my desired pump/tank/pickup setup. I then put that $200 I was going to spend on the Hydramat towards buying the braided lines and -AN fittings.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4762/40521715792_6e5c5d7bf1_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24JLomh)IMG_0604 (https://flic.kr/p/24JLomh) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr



I got everything from Racetronix, and with Jacks help, we compiled a long list of parts, fittings, wiring, and so forth to get me a kick-ass fuel system. I am keeping the stock tank, hanger, sending unit, float, and bulkhead, but aside from that, everything will be new (and better) leading up to the TPI setup. Since the TPI setup will be getting removed when I do the engine project next year, I just used adapters to go from the -AN lines to the saginaw fittings near the TPI rails.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4662/39853658724_321bd6c057_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23HJqfY)IMG_1153 (https://flic.kr/p/23HJqfY) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4721/39853658074_ec4ee36e49_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23HJq4L)IMG_1225 (https://flic.kr/p/23HJq4L) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr


The fuel line is P.T.F.E. Teflon lined, stainless steel braided, and then coated in a snazzy composite coating. this is great for under the car and easy to wipe down, but I may peel off the coating on the hose that is visible in the engine bay to expose the fancy braided steel lines. maybe next year though
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=TFT1170-08B&eq=&Tp=
I went with -8an (1/2") line for the feed line and -6an (3/8") for the return line. I am leaving the vent line as is from the factory at this time.

Fittings are P.T.F.E. style and I have to assemble each fitting onto the hose after determining the hose length. There are an assortment of adapters too. Everything is black anodized and so far all are going on well.
http://www.racetronix.biz/items.asp?Cc=FIT-TFE&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc=

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4791/40521712532_1e84025173_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24JLno5)IMG_1231 (https://flic.kr/p/24JLno5) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4801/39669197365_92769ef7e5_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23rr1jH)IMG_1232 (https://flic.kr/p/23rr1jH) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

The pump is a Racetronix RXP340E which will actually flow closer to 380lph with the upgraded wiring kit (so I was told)
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=RXP340E&eq=&Tp=
I also got their billet fuel filter which uses a removable filter element that is also magnetic. installed it with their billet filter mount as well.
-the pump, lines, wiring, filter, fittings etc are all E85 capable too, and not that I plan on running E85 but it is nice to know I could have the option to do so.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4800/40564300641_b7d1f5372e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24NwDkP)IMG_1243 (https://flic.kr/p/24NwDkP) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4711/40564296361_f0e41d2860_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24NwC52)IMG_1247 (https://flic.kr/p/24NwC52) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4618/40564298531_b99db74abd_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24NwCHr)IMG_1267 (https://flic.kr/p/24NwCHr) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4605/40564297941_9263501370_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24NwCxg)IMG_1271 (https://flic.kr/p/24NwCxg) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr



the wiring upgrade they make can certainly be built by hand to save money, but I decided to get everything I needed for wiring pre-built from them.
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPWH-005&eq=&Tp=
http://www.racetronix.biz/customkititems.asp?kc=BCWA-FL98HD&eq=
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=ITWH-002&eq=&Tp=


I am about 50% done with the fuel system project so far; need another full day to probably complete it. Then the tank can go in and I can check that the pump primes and there are no leaks.


****QUESTION, if i don't have a transmission or rear end in the car, but the engine is in, would it be possible or problematic to test the fuel system and crank the engine over to let it run for a short moment? again, no transmission, torque converter, exhaust from the y-pipe back, no driveshaft, rear axle. thoughts? I simply want to make sure the fuel system is functioning and re-set the fuel pressure via my Holley fuel pressure regulator at the TPI.. prior to reinstalling the exhaust, axle, rear suspension etc. Could this damage anything at all or cause a problem in any way shape or form ??



the rear axle will be staying as is for now. I did decide to get some slightly longer wheel studs so that I could feel comfortable by having a full 7or8 turns of thread engagement on my rear wheels. While taking the axles out I was stopped dead in my tracks at finding a very odd sheared off bolt head lying in the bottom of the axle carrier. the fluid was dark and slightly metalic, but there was this small head of a sheared off bolt. It is a tapered head that looks to have been installed via a torx. I spoke with some experts on this board and online and nobody seems to think it ever belonged to anything inside my specific axle. The last three times (in the past 6 years) this rear has been opened up was by me and me alone. I did not put it there and do not recognize it. The rear is original to this car minus the richmond 3.73's. So it is a 10 bolt, 26 spline, series 2 carrier, G80 RPO code rear. Anyone have any oddball thoughts about this bolt head (seep photos)
--Regardless, I will be putting in the longer wheel studs and putting it all back together in hopes that I can get many more miles out of it this year. In the long run I will need a better rear and driveshaft to handle the big power for next years engine project, but I don't have and extra $4,500 for a 12 bolt and new driveshaft at the moment. I am hoping this 10 bolt lasts a while and in the meantime I can save up, buy a 12 bolt and keep it off to the side in the garage in case this rear fails suddenly on me.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4675/40521714582_6eb941fcb1_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24JLnZq)IMG_0780 (https://flic.kr/p/24JLnZq) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4662/25693620437_4f9c3459fc_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/F9swcP)IMG_0783 (https://flic.kr/p/F9swcP) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4610/40521714842_aaea653c21_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24JLo4U)IMG_0758 (https://flic.kr/p/24JLo4U) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr



My Koni yellow struts and shocks have arrived and will go in when I reassemble everything.
My MSD ignition box is back from having two failed transistors replaced and tested by MSD.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4778/40564307581_3b964825e3_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24NwFpt)IMG_0344 (https://flic.kr/p/24NwFpt) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4795/39853659294_88edbf9139_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23HJqqN)IMG_1039 (https://flic.kr/p/23HJqqN) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/), on Flickr


feel free to share comments, concerns, good or bad feedback, or advice.

for the full album of photos, here is a link:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123927173@N02/albums/72157693254915234/with/40564295751/

[Blackbirdws6]

Looks like you have been busy! I'm enjoying the pics and thorough posting.

To answer your question about starting the engine without a trans, I'd hold off. The engine rpm may climb unexpectedly without any sort of drag. I'd verify FP with key on and check for leaks then move on to the next part of the project.

[LTb1ow]

Just hotwire the pump and let it push fuel around.

Beauty of EFI

[deadtrend1]

What experts did you talk to? Thats one of the bolts that hold the posi unit together...

A new 12 bolt is not even close to 4500 dollars..

[IROCZman15]

What experts did you talk to? Thats one of the bolts that hold the posi unit together...

A new 12 bolt is not even close to 4500 dollars..



several, including a guy on thirdgen.org who has been building rear ends for three decades.
if you know a way to pull up a photo or exploded diagram view of said rear posi unit, please share. I'd love to know what my fate may be. this bolt may have broken off a long time ago or just recently. last time I had the cover off and changed rear fluid was about 1.5 years ago.


as per prices on the 12 bolt, that is kinda what I have been coming up with when doing pretend orders on moser, strange, and currie websites. (that price includes the $600 driveshaft i will NEED to match the rear, from dennys driveshafts) I also looked on hawks, and may give JS josh a call. I do want a 12 bolt and not a 9".

I would really like to keep my current rear brake package becasue it works well, and I already own it so why buy another.
it is the exact kit at this link: http://flynbye.com/catalog/i11.html
BUT WITH THESE BACKING PLATES: http://flynbye.com/catalog/i182.html
(those backing plates were needed because i went from drum to disc)

from researching moser, currie, strange's websites, they obviously wouldn't use those backing plates, but how would I go about ordering/researching how to make this brake package work.

the reason I ask is when I go to Moser's site,
http://www.moserengineering.com/12-bolt-built-to-order-rear-end-package.item
click "rear end packages" in the store, "12 bolt built to order", .. in brake packages, would i just click "using stock brakes" ? and then use my backing plates? will this work with their axle flanges and bolt-in axles (non C-clip) ? I have emailed them twice but no response so I may have to call. in reality, this is the only thing holding me up from piecing together an order.... (and finances). I would really hate to not reuse my perfectly fine working brake package. see below and/or website

the options I chose on this page were
http://www.moserengineering.com/12-bolt-built-to-order-rear-end-package.item
- Kendall LS additave
- 3 liters Motul fluid
- residentail lift gate
- bolt in axles
- 82-92 camaro *** see here, right here !!!! "can not use stock brakes" !!!!!
- 33 spline
- Trutrack 33 spline
- 3.55 ratio
- 1350 series pinion yoke
- aluminum girdle
- 5 x 4.75 bolt pattern
- sealed bearing
- 12 x 1.5 " studs
- no ABS
- using stock drum brakes **which is what my backing plates currently are for ** but wont work ...
- sway bar mounts and adjustable LCA mounts (their site will only let me pick one of thesee?!?)
- semi-gloss black powdercoating
$3,300.75


Driveshaft:
1350 series nitrous ready
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/c30_driveshafts_1967_to_2002.html

[WildBillyT]

What experts did you talk to? Thats one of the bolts that hold the posi unit together...

A new 12 bolt is not even close to 4500 dollars..

Nailed it.

http://www.2040-parts.com/_content/items/images/64/1073564/010.jpg


Factory 26 spline GM Auburn posi screw.

[IROCZman15]

ok, awesome, thank you guys. the day i first found it i knew it was obviously not a ring gear bolt or a main cap bolt as I could physically see them. that led my thought process into t inking it was something inside the diff.. and not being an expert i asked around. no worries though, I am glad to now know what it is and where it came from.

looks like there are 5 of them total. i'm missing one. certainly not good at all, but not an immediate death sentence for the whole rear.. would you agree? might have to go a little easier on the burnouts and launches for a while while I save up money for a 12 bolt. thoughts opinions ?

[BonzoHansen]

i wouldn't run it. so now the other bolts are more stressed and one already broke on its own.

[LTb1ow]

Why are you fixed on the 12 bolt?

S60 is another option

[IROCZman15]

i did look at combinations of the strange S60 and the for 9" and fabricated rear ends as well. I guess I am not fixed on the 12 bolt 100% but I have done some resaerch and reading on Thirdgen.org and people seem to have success with it on setups with the power level I plan on being at

I wish I had the $4,000 is that it would cost to just buy or have one built right now, but I donnt...so either I sideline the car until I can afford it, or I put the 10 bolt back in and drive normally without launches or burnouts etc

as mentioned, the brake setup is really my only dilemma


did a tiny bit more work on the fuel system this morning, plugged in the pumps etup and new bulkhead wiring to the existing oem fuel pump connector and connected the battery. the pump primed. waited 5 mins, did it again. that was a nice moemnt, because it means that I did the in tank wiring correctly, 9which involved removing wiring and pins from oem connectors and putting them into new ones from racetronix), and the bulkhead wiring is correct.


going to try to finish up the braided lines and fittings tomorrow daytime, and then runt the main wiring harness from the alternator, under the car, to the tank . then get some fuel and test the pump

[BonzoHansen]

Why are you fixed on the 12 bolt?

S60 is another option

there is a rear I never see in a car designed to turn corners.

[BonzoHansen]

i did look at combinations of the strange S60 and the for 9" and fabricated rear ends as well. I guess I am not fixed on the 12 bolt 100% but I have done some resaerch and reading on Thirdgen.org and people seem to have success with it on setups with the power level I plan on being at

I wish I had the $4,000 is that it would cost to just buy or have one built right now, but I donnt...so either I sideline the car until I can afford it, or I put the 10 bolt back in and drive normally without launches or burnouts etc


short term you could buy a new center unit.

[LTb1ow]

there is a rear I never see in a car designed to turn corners.

Learn something new every day

[wretched73]

Check out the 9" rears sold by quick performance

[BonzoHansen]

Learn something new every day
i can only surmise it has to do with size & weight (and HP loss?). I assume the extra shock load that you see in drag racing warrants that kind of setup, something cars in other forms of racing problaby don't typically see. Just a guess on my part.

[Featherburner]

i can only surmise it has to do with size & weight (and HP loss?). I assume the extra shock load that you see in drag racing warrants that kind of setup, something cars in other forms of racing problaby don't typically see. Just a guess on my part.
10-15 pounds heavier than a 9" and "eats" less HP than a 9" due to 9" pinion location.

[IROCZman15]

FUEL SYSTEM IS COMPLETE AND WORKING PROPERLY.

Yesterday I finished up the lines and connections at the tank bulkhead. cut the vent tube and the "honk" valve metal lines off and ran new fuel rated rubber lines from the tank. I also wired in the wiring harness that I got from racetronix already prebuilt. It gets power from the alternator, so the voltage will be above 14volts to feed the pump. the wiring was a little long so I had to loop it onto itself back by the tank. it came with the built in relay, connectors, and chassis ground terminal. The body-mount clamps I got fit the -6 return line perfectly, so that is hard mounted along the chassis and underbody. I have some billet clamps that attach the -6 line to the -8 feed line along the path too, and then the wiring, vent tube line, and the brake line to the rear axle are all zip tied together. The filter is large, so I was limited on areas to mount it, but I found a good enough spot for it.


When it was all said and done I connected the battery and tested for voltage. I put the keyON and heard the pump prime. it did. I then removed the coil wire from the distributer and cranked the engine a few times to build fuel pressure in the line and check for leaks. no leaks. Figured, what the heck and reconnected the ignition. after a bout only 2 seconds, the engine started up and ran. let it run at idle for about 10 seconds and shut it all off. went underneath with a dry papertowel and checked for leaks. no leaks. let everything sit for about 15 mins and cranked it over again. ran for 10 seconds at idle and turned it off. no leaks. as was suggested to me on TGOi supported the underside of the engine for balance/safety.


so hopefuly that totaly wraps it up for the fuel system portion of this winter's project
I'll now reassemble the rear end after I put in the new longer wheel studs. I hear what you guys are saying about buying a new posi unit, but I really would like to NOT put any more $ into this 177,000 mile rear axle assemble. Those hundreds of doallrs would be way better off going towards the new rear end. I'll just not hammer on the car until I have the axle here or being built.

still completely unsure about what path I will go with rearends, and what to do about this brake setup.


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4605/38864425990_91018864e3_z.jpg

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https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4610/25803920857_fe467e0af5_z.jpg

[sweetbmxrider]

Nice progress dude

[IROCZman15]

so since the last update I have gotten the car completely back together and back on the road

I left the rear end "as-is" with the hopes that it can survive through most/all of 2018 while saving up for a new purpose built rear (as earlier discussed above by us all). so, the exhaust, heat shields, rear axle, brakes, suspension components, lines, etc are all done. I installed new slightly longer wheel studs in the axles because I wanted a few more turns of thread engagement, and now I feel better having about 7.5 turns of thread engagement when bolting on my rear wheels. I upgraded the rear shocks to the Koni Yellow 8241-1140sport adjustable shocks...which are specifically for 93-02 fbody. the reason i got these instead of the ones for the 82-92 fbody is because these are ON-CAR adjustable, while the 82-92 versions have to be taken OFF of the car to be adjusted and then reinstalled. the 82-92 are dual valved though, and these are only single valved.. but the on-car adjustment is important to me. my rears are currently set at 1.0 turns up (out of a total of 2.5)

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/966/41363914155_dced786a2e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/262bSzH)

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/963/41544253794_2b2399bc88_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/26i8agQ)


reinstalled and rewired the repaired MSD Digital 6 ignition box also. installed a new speedometer cable because the old one had a split in the housing where it mated to the transmission and leaked fluid slightly. ATP cable #03159 P/N Y815 80" long. got both of my oem sun visors recovered at a local upholstery shop because the fabric was getting loose and that just didnt jive with my mint headliner.

Decided to do the "4th gen coolant tank mod" and get rid of the location of my factory tank from the passenger inner fender. cut out most of my battery tray since it had become rusty and because I had to cut a pear shaped hole in it anyway to install the tank setup. replaced the tray with a piece of 1/8" sheet aluminum which I cut the pear shaped hole into. primered and painted it red and dressed the hole with some rubber vac tubing to eliminate any tank rubbing on the sharp edges. filled in the holes on the inner fender with epoxy, then body filler, sanding, primer, paint etc. cleans up the engine bay a LOT by not having the bright white goofy plastic tank there. my battery now sits higher but does not come close to interfering with the hood.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/981/42219378962_dbf7399798_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/27jMmsW)

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/949/41544249804_47e05324f4_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/26i8963)

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https://farm1.staticflickr.com/952/41388863665_91323c17fb_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/264oKcF)

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/897/41569118694_24954c2f43_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/26kjAK1)




...finally got the transmission back from the builder who upgraded it after repairing the worn 3-4 clutch pack and also resurfacing a few components that had some wear. he also found that a plunger in the valve body was stuck in place by a piece of metal that somehow found its way into the system. it COULD be from the old exploded transmission which COULD have left pieces of metal in the system... However, in 2016 I did do my very best to flush the lines, and the trans cooler inside the radiator using TWO cans of the trans system flush aerosol can product after explosion of old trans. I now have installed an in-line magnetic transmission fluid filter made by magnefine in case there are any additional particles that may be in the system. trans has been beefed up to" hold 750-800" flywheel hp. details here: https://probuiltautomatics.com/shop?olsPage=products%2F700r4-pro-street-elite-1988-1993&page=1&sortOption=descend_by_price
-- (actually it looks like Dana just changed his website around and now doesnt list the full details of each product on the website anymore?? hmm. interesting. oh well)
- put a drain plug in the pan also to help prevent any future messy trans fluid spills when removing the pan. While installing the crossmember, 2 out of the 4 bolts started to become stripped. I know this is a common thing for these unibody fbody crossmember setups and happens after repeated removal/installs due to the cheap-o metal captured nuts that GM welded inside the frame. I did my research on thirdgen.org and I was successful with the easiest repair method.... This simply involves re-tapping the bolt holes to a larger size and installing larger 7/16" bolts. the other methods involve cutting side access holes into the frame, or removing the interior and carpet to drill access holes through the floor to weld in new nuts. perhaps in the future i'll do that if the interior is out, but for now the new bolts are holding snug.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/975/28392540128_18ed2a77c8_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KfXbZW)


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/829/41544262274_39a1d366a2_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/26i8cN3)


Installed the front Koni yellow struts P/N 8741-1030Sport. these are specific for the 82-92 fbody. I currently only have them cranked 1.0 turns up from zero. greased all steering and suspension components and cleaned up underside of the chassis. brought the car for an alignment and got everything sorted out how I wanted it to be. also set the driveline angle at 3deg according to my tremec driveline angle finder app. (cool free app by the way)

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/959/42265948251_35563f023b_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/27oU2TH)


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/908/27395307217_483ba1dcf9_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HJQ7p4)




after a few short test drives and another bolt check underneath the entire car I took it out for a good 20 minutes and everything felt fine. the trans doesn't seem to like shifting from 1-2 at very low rpm throttle input, it kinda bucks two or three times after the shift...again when basically coasting. I'll see if this goes awayand do some research as well.
I checked fuel pressure since I was worried that the new upgraded fuel pump/system might have disrupted the psi and found that when I dialed the pressure down to the stock 48 / 42 psi settings (vac hose off/on) the engine did not like it at all. It seemed to run the happiest when at 51psi/44psi so I left it set at that. Got the nitrous tank filled at Bruce's Seed shop and did a few quick 3-4 second rips with that to ensure that my nitrous related MSD box wiring and fuel system stuff was in order... and it was.


So for now it will be on the road for a while. I have no immediate plans on the calendar yet for any autocross or drag racing. I do want to do some autoX at the Meadowlands this year, but might hold off on drag racing since I am still driving around with the hurt rear and do not have the $ to buy a new beefed up one. I plan on some long fun cruises, cruise nights, car shows, the UMI autoX event, and some general thrashing when appropriate. I will need to do a full blown intense wash, strip, claybar, polish, sealant, wax session in a few weeks when the pollen is all gone. I stopped by CTW Paul's house and picked up a LOT of awesome detail supplies from him for a great price. (also picked up a full cat-back Magnaflow exhaust setup for my truck). Thats all, just wanted to update. Still slowly saving for a rear axle and for the big engine project. hopefully this winter, but dang my wifes college bills have really been eating into my engine savings account! oh well. thats life.

[ar0ck]

Now this is the stuff I like to see on the forums! Looks incredible!

[sweetbmxrider]

Excellent work as always!

[Blackbirdws6]

Really enjoying the thorough explanation, detailed pics and commentary. Keep it coming and glad it's back on the road.

[WildBillyT]

Looks great!!

[deadtrend1]

I would make a strap for that battery. The 4th gen trays have a habit of breaking.

[IROCZman15]

I would make a strap for that battery. The 4th gen trays have a habit of breaking.

woah, I had no idea about that. that is sure good to know. I'll do some research and see if I can make one (or something) that looks classy but provides support. thank you


drove the car into work tonight (30 minutes, 17 miles) all is working well except I can hear intermittent noises from the rear end (which is hurt and missing one sheared off diff/ring bolt head) i'll check fluid in a week or so after driving it more miles, maybe i'll play around a tad more with setting the driveline/pinion angle too. i only hear the noise when not on the throttle, when the gears are "coasting". also, when i am put-putting very low rpm's the 1-2 shift is a bit jerky, but when I am at any moderate (20% an up) throttle input the 1-2 shift is rock solid and feels great. i guess it just doesnt like to be limped from 1-2 . interesting.

[IROCZman15]

So, it has been about a year since I last updated this, and I am happy to say that this upcoming winter the engine replacement will be happening. During 2018 I put a few thousand miles on the car, and did some autoX with it. over this past winter I removed the old hurt 10 bolt and replaced it with a Moser 12 bolt (link: http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68687) It should hold 900 Horsepower from what Moser Engineering told me. new 12 bolt housing with 3" tubes, fully welded all around. 33 spline axles. Detroit TruTrack rear Diff. 1/2"x2" screw-in wheel studs. ball bearings on the housing ends. no-clips. solid pinion spacer. chrome-moly pinion yoke. aluminum rear cover. built in adjustable lower control arm mounts. powdercoated black. heavy and beefy. I also had a driveshaft made by Denny's Driveshafts which I was told is good to hold about 1,500 horsepower. 3" tube. chrome-moly slip yoke. high speed balanced. lifetime warranty. I had to sort out some wild ignition issues which melted down my distributor cap and fried a diode in my MSD Digital6 ignition box also. The car got a full 4 corner alignment and drive-line angle was set. I had the mis-aligned rear hatch, so I removed the deck-lid and reinstalled it so everything lines up properly. I now have a few hundred miles on it this year and I am super happy about it all.

However I am getting amped up to get things moving towards the engine swap. Working overtime as much as I can to collect the funds so I can buy the engine flat-out. I am 99% sure it will be the engine I listed in post#1 a while back. http://nyesautomotive.net/406_525hp_EFI.html a 406 with EFI. basically a new DART SHP block, Callies crank and rods (NOT the Eagle ones.. scroll to the bottom of the link page for callies crank/rods). Dart Pro1 cylinder heads. Holley Sniper tbi tyle EFi (possibly might upgrade to the Holey Super Sniper unit). Dyno Tested to 525 hp, and shipped to my door. I spoke with them and they can file the rings and make any other mods needed so that I can run a 200-250 progressive wet shot of nitrous too. The holley sniper can control cooling fans, nitrous progressive shots, tune settings and so forth.

My biggest dilemma is going to be the exhaust and headers. I currently have the DynoDon's 1 3/4" short/mid-length headers. they are awesome for my current setup.. and perhaps might be "ok" with the new engine N/A, but not for the engine when its on the nitrous. I am pretty sure I will need a set of 1 7/8" or bigger headers. Biggest problem--- my car is a street car and it is LOW. In all practicality, I don't think a set of long tube headers will work. I spent a lot of time on Thirdgen.org and the hooker and other long tube headers would probably sit way too low for my already low street car. I might have to just get a set of headers custom built for the car. Expensive! bummer. As for the rest of the exhaust, I don't have any desire to run a dual exhaust.. nor do I think it would be easy, since I have the S&W subframe/torque arm kit that has a low crossmember under the driveshaft. I think I will go with a 4" mufflex exhaust system... with a proper muffler.


I think the plan for 2019 is to drive the car to events, shows, do some autoX and maybe even chug it down the 1/4 mile a few times. Around November, PRIOR to pulling out the engine, I would like to get the car over to S&W racecars in Pennsylvania and have them install a 6 point roll-bar setup with swing-outs on both sides. After that is done, I can drive the car home and start pulling it apart. I want to relocate the Optima red-top battery to the rear (under pass side trunk area), and redo all the needed wiring. I will also need to install an On-OFF kill switch too. Then I'll remove the current engine (and probably transmission too). I want to spend some time in the engine bay patching holes, relocating things, running new nickle-copper brake lines, and then paint the engine bay. Once things are proper in there, I can install the new engine with the trans (prob both at the same time). Will have to see if my 2,800 rpm Edge racing converter should be replaced?? Then bolt up my existing DynoDon's headers to just get the engine running and car sorted out. If those are a problem, I'll have to decide if having a custom set of headers built is the best way to go.
I am NOT sure what I will be doing with the accessory drive or pulleys yet. I ONLY need a water pump, power steering pump, and alternator. I might wind up just using my existing 140 amp powermaster alternator and existing power steering pump. I see online companies (march, Eddie motorsports, billet specialties, etc) want about $1,800 for nice billet accessory drive kits. That might be out of my budget for this year, it might just have to wait. my current parts/brackets aren't super pretty, but if I can use them while saving up $ for a fancy accessory drive setup, that might be the way to go.

I also plan on installing a brand new radiator since the engine, water pump, hoses, etc will be brand new. I will probably go with a large 2 core radiator, as I have read that some 2 cores work better than some 3 core radiators. I'll need a new catch can too. I want to keep the current (oem stock) dual puller fans too. so if I can find a proper radiator that the fan mounting assembly will work with, that would be awesome. again, the fans will be controlled by the Holley Sniper computer .

all in all, the car is pretty much set for 2019. I am going to enjoy it as it is now and patiently wait for the big stuff to begin in November.

anyone that has any thoughts, ideas, recommendations, negative/positive comments, feel free to share. any parts recommendations or links to important stuff is appreciated.

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[Blackbirdws6]

Nice to see you are ready to roll for the season.

I think my only question, not a critique, is why this engine is the one getting the nod? I'm not knocking the decision but just curious.

[IROCZman15]

Glad you asked, I should have gotten into that a bit,

I always had intentions of keeping the car a gen 1 sbc. so LT, LS, LSX, LXX, XXL, etc are all eliminated right away. I want a solid block for long term use and a Dart Little M is too over the top, so a Dart SHP is the best fit.

I began searching for fully built engines a few years ago and came across the usual stuff from BluePrint engines, Skip White, White Performance, Proformance unlimited etc etc. Spent a lot of time reading reviews too. I am certainly not skilled enough to assemble my own stout short or long block. (I MAY TRY to tear down my current camaro's engine and give it a freshen up later on) but I would not trust myself with all sorts of expensive engine components, so I want a pro shop to do it. Ohio Crankshaft had some good engines too.

I read many reviews when I searched even deeper than just a simple google search for Nyes Performance engines. Dug into a bunch of threads on yellowbullet.com and actually even reached out to some people via PM on other internet sites who had a Nyes engine. all had very good things to say. I stopped by The Engine Factory in Lebanon, NJ a year or so ago, and they said they could build just what I wanted for $13,900 or I could have a 434 cubic inch for $15,900. Price was a bit too far out of reach for me when I could have the Nyes one for $11,000 plus shipping. There are local engine building shops nearby too, and I'm sure they could do it, but since Nyes builds these combinations of engines quite often, they probably have it down to a really good science, whereas Im sure a local shop could do it too, but they may not have all the variables as fully refined as Nyes probably does.

I wasn't set on a 406 for displacement, but from what I have learned (and been told), the rotating combination of a 427 doesn't jive with my intended use and nitrous. I was told by two people to flat out not go with a 427 nitrous setup. basically, I could go with a 406, 421, 434.

I want EFI, but I'm not a tuner and don't want to overly be obsessed with tuning and data-logging a street/strip/show/car. I want what the holley sniper (and holley super sniper) seem to offer, self learning tuning, various inputs and outputs, datalogging, and basic drive-ability reliability. I am not looking to grab every single hp capable out of the engine either. .... I want to be able to fire up the car, drive it with minimal worries, and hammer on it at will without constantly tuning a carb or an advanced efi system or having parts be on the ragged edge of driveability.

if anyone knows of some fully built/dyno'd engine combinations like this, please let me know. I have several months before I purchase an engine still.

[B4C]

One of my co-workers just purchased a blueprint 427 long block and it is bad ass. Hes running the fast ez efi with it too. Think he paid $8000 for the long block. Why the nitrous? Why not just stay n/a?

[IROCZman15]

One of my co-workers just purchased a blueprint 427 long block and it is bad ass. Hes running the fast ez efi with it too. Think he paid $8000 for the long block. Why the nitrous? Why not just stay n/a?


nice!! I looked (online) at a bunch of info on the FAST EZ-EFI stuff too. that was my second option behind the sniper, with then the FiTech stuff as a 3rd place option. what kinda car does he have it in? i'm guessing its making about 550 when all assembled ?

I'm going to have the nitrous as a bonus for track use. I already have a 100-150 shot on the car now so the car is wired, plumbed, and everything for nitrous. I don't think it would make much sense for me to remove it? All i'll have to do is get some bigger jets, get a solenoid mounting plate/bracket for the sniper, and get an actual intake spray plate to sit below the sniper unit on the intake. If the current 340 lph pump and -8 feed line aren't capable of a 200-250 shot, then i'll just run a smaller shot and have fun with that. ... if ever needed I could add a small dedicated tank/pump/lines for the nitrous use, but that's PROBABLY ONLY if I am really chasing down a goal e.t. at the track. possibly. but as for now, since the car is setup for nitrous, my thought is that it make sense to keep it and run it occasionally with the new engine. with the current slug motor, I do use it a lot because the engine is weak; next engine wont be!


anyone else? I know I type a lot and its daunting to read, but i try to put as much info out there so people have a full-circle idea of my thoughts/gameplan

comments? criticisms? thoughts? major red flags?

-cheaper places to have the 6 point roll bar done? S&W racecars wants about $3,200 for a bar with swing-outs in chrome-moly tube
-ideas for radiator and water pump?
-thoughts on headers and exhaust?
-torque converter upgrade from the edge racing 2,800 rpm?

[B4C]

He put it in his 85 z28. The torque is crazy. I looked at efi setups for my wifes 86 trans am and the Holley sniper was my first choice as well. She also wanted to swap the 700r for a t56. Once I priced it all out it made more sense to just LS swap it.

[LTb1ow]

I have had good success with FTI, and Circle D converters.

[IROCZman15]

I am about 2 months away from ordering the engine. I have the full amount of $ saved and ready in my bank account. I also have the $ saved for the 6 point roll-bar install at S&W racecars. I still need to earn a few thousand dollars more to save for what I have been calling "the extras", which include a new torque converter, radiator, battery relocation box, wiring, and on/off switch, power steering box rebuild, engine bay makeover and paint, and maybe a set of drag slicks to mount onto my 16" iroc wheels. I am thinking somewhere about $3,500 for that stuff.


in the next few weeks I might start asking for input on what questions I should make sure I mention to the engine building company. cam specs, gap rings for a 200-250 wet shot, engine weight, stuff like that. I have never been down this road before, and since I am spending some big $ here, I want to make sure I ask all the right questions to people that are knowledgeable and then i can have a near perfect gameplan.

[Blackbirdws6]

My big recommendation is to spend the extra money to have the engine run on a dyno as close to the configuration as you plan to run it in the car. This will ensure you get it broken in properly and prove the combination is doing what is intended. It will give you some piece of mind to know the engine is sound so if you have issues when installed in the car, it's likely something on your end isn't right.

When selecting the final engine spec, think far down the road how you will plan to use the engine. Do you want something to provide max power or sacrifice a little top end to gain more mid range. Ask for the complete build sheet including part numbers should you need to replace anything down the road. Ask what plugs should be run for different conditions or if not wanting to make it complicated, ask what plug and gap should be used to handle both NA and nitrous.

Ask if after the engine is broken in, do you need to check over head bolt/stud torque, etc or not needed.

Ask what oil they recommend for break in and after break in use.

[LTb1ow]

Don't compromise the motor for the 10-20% time you are going to be racing it, make sure it will always be ready to go for DD duty.

[wretched73]

Who is going to be building the engine for you?

[IROCZman15]

Awesome. Thanks fellas!! I had thought of a few of those things,
But you brought up a few things I hadn’t thought about. Thank you

When I sent a few emails last year they assured me that it would be a perfect street motor that after some initial tuning/self learning time.. would be very reliable on the street and able to be hammered on at the track as well. I totally agree that it should be a street engine first and foremost, like you said, not compromising street driveability to gain a few more top end horsepower. I will ask them for the full detailed parts list, numbers, plugs, oil, recommendations for water pump, and torque specs. I probably won’t even hook up the nitrous for a few months of so since it will be a big jump up to the +500 horsepower/torque ball game. I want to make sure the car and powertrain is happy before drilling a 200 shot and trying to run a low number. I still want to autocross this car too which is why I didn’t want turbo or blower configuration. Mid range horsepower would be optimal. Street car.

Nyes performance engines will be building the engine . Top to bottom. I spend a lot of time over the past few years reading and reaching out to people who have their engines and I can only find one bad review on them (by some dumb dirt track racer bozo) on yellowbullt.com and when he complained, the yellowbullet people ate him alive and had nothing but good things to say about nyes engines. I am NOT using the eagle crank and rods but instead paying the extra $500 for the Callie’s crank and rods. I will also pay the extra $100 for the arp 2000 level bolts.

http://nyesautomotive.net/site/mobile?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnyesautomotive.net%2F406_5 25hp_EFI.html#2619


I ha e more correspondence but here are two of Their shorter emails to me:
“Hello Dave
I think the 406 would be a great combo for your car with the Holley Sniper system, we can get the cam correct for cruising and racing, as for the wet nitrous it will work but you will need a seperate fuel pressure regulator for the nitrous system. The fuel pump in the tank is a great idea and makes for a clean install. Let me know what your zip code is and i will get you a total price with freight.
Thank you
Pat”

And

“Hello Dave
We use the Sniper system and it works well on this engine, we would open up the ring gap a bit for the 150-200 shot and should not need to do anything else different, we do use ARP head bolts on this engine. As for savings for lack of a fuel pump we can deduct $200.00 if we don't send a pump.

Thank you, if you have any other questions please let me know
Pat”




So


I plan on keeping my current exhaust setup for a bit while I get the car sorted out. It is DynoDon’s 1 3/4Inch mid length headers to a 3” holley cat back, and a 3” electric cutout with aero chamber muffler. After talking to a bunch of drag racers in the pits at events and knowledgeable people online, it’s probably the very lowest I should have with the engine, but will work. It would be about $2000 or more for a set of 2” headers and a 4” magnaflow exhaust with muffler. I won’t have that in the budget. My Dyno dons headers should bolt right up to the dart pro1 heads.

I’ll have to figure out bracketed for the trans Tv cable, reroute the -8 and -6 fuel
Lines, redo all the front accessories and brackets, too. My mini starter and alternator should work just fine. Air filter and assembly will also have to be figured out. Maybe a drop-base style ? Remember I’ll gain about 3/4” in engine height when that nitrous plate does go on.

[LTb1ow]

I know its not apples to apples, but I trap 139 area with a 3 inch downpipe to a cutout mid car.

Run it with what you have ad it picks up a ton with cutout open, maybe look into replacing parts but don't go replacing stuff that may work.

[sweetbmxrider]

I would think a whipple or whatever flavor you like would be awesome for auto x?

[IROCZman15]

I know its not apples to apples, but I trap 139 area with a 3 inch downpipe to a cutout mid car.

Run it with what you have ad it picks up a ton with cutout open, maybe look into replacing parts but don't go replacing stuff that may work.


yup, thanks Matt. that's the plan for at least the 2020 season. Run it with the exhaust as it is. good to hear you are doing good with your 3" setup and the car runs a stout speed and quarter mile. many other racers I've chatted with agree that I shouldn't be bottle-necking the engine too much, especially N/A...and leaving the electric cutout open too.


adam. I had briefly considered that. it would change the whole configuration of the engine (no holley sniper) and I would probably have to run an intercooler. was hoping to avoid excess intake pipes winding all over the engine bay (for cosmetics and work access). also, since the ultimate hp/tq goal for the car was low-mid 700's, that blower/engine setup would be always setup/tuned for that amount of power on the street. dare I say it,...but that might be too much for me on the street with this car. with the nitrous setup, I can run about 500+ hp on the street n/a and then grab the other 200 hp at the track when I turn on the bottle. but a whipple style blower would be way more of a reality compared to a centrifugal blower in my list of possible choices. thanks

I chatted with some of our crew yesterday at atco too and also had a short chat with the guys at the Holley booth about the sniper unit. either the sniper (600 hp) or super sniper(650 hp) will be what I wind up getting. I discussed computer tuning stuff with polar bear yesterday too and most of that stuff is currently wayyyy over my head. I'd like to learn it for sure, but I'll start from the beginning with the simple had-held display/programmer that comes with the sniper. eventually, possibly I can learn enough to step up to a lap-top.

[Blackbirdws6]

yup, thanks Matt. that's the plan for at least the 2020 season. Run it with the exhaust as it is. good to hear you are doing good with your 3" setup and the car runs a stout speed and quarter mile. many other racers I've chatted with agree that I shouldn't be bottle-necking the engine too much, especially N/A...and leaving the electric cutout open too.


adam. I had briefly considered that. it would change the whole configuration of the engine (no holley sniper) and I would probably have to run an intercooler. was hoping to avoid excess intake pipes winding all over the engine bay (for cosmetics and work access). also, since the ultimate hp/tq goal for the car was low-mid 700's, that blower/engine setup would be always setup/tuned for that amount of power on the street. dare I say it,...but that might be too much for me on the street with this car. with the nitrous setup, I can run about 500+ hp on the street n/a and then grab the other 200 hp at the track when I turn on the bottle. but a whipple style blower would be way more of a reality compared to a centrifugal blower in my list of possible choices. thanks

I chatted with some of our crew yesterday at atco too and also had a short chat with the guys at the Holley booth about the sniper unit. either the sniper (600 hp) or super sniper(650 hp) will be what I wind up getting. I discussed computer tuning stuff with polar bear yesterday too and most of that stuff is currently wayyyy over my head. I'd like to learn it for sure, but I'll start from the beginning with the simple had-held display/programmer that comes with the sniper. eventually, possibly I can learn enough to step up to a lap-top.

Not swaying you towards a blower but a PD one (like a whipple) would typically have a watercooled system and not a traditional intercooler (a to a).

[BonzoHansen]

Go big or go home (http://kurturbanperformance.net/home/) :)

or here (http://nelsonracingengines.com/engines/chevy.html) :)

or here (https://www.mastmotorsports.com/pages/engines). :)

[IROCZman15]

Go big or go home (http://kurturbanperformance.net/home/) :)

or here (http://nelsonracingengines.com/engines/chevy.html) :)

or here (https://www.mastmotorsports.com/pages/engines). :)


a Nelson engine with mirror image turbos would cost more than every vehicle I own combined !!

[IROCZman15]

I have been in contact with S&W racecars over the past few months and we were initially shooting to have me drop the car off mid November, but they have two builds over there that have had customers add-on to the project so the timeline has shifted and I should be dropping the car off in about 3-4 weeks. I am hoping that mayyyybe around thanksgiving actually since I'll be out in PA just 8 mins away from the shop at my in-laws house for Thanksgiving. fingers crossed
- I am still undecided between a mild-steel vs a chrome-moly bar setup.?? Thoughts?

I did decide that I wanted to NOT have the two diagonal bars going from the main hoop and over to the driveshaft hump. I wont be seating passengers in the back, but i will want the space accessible for gear/stuff. Since I will be getting door-bar swingouts which will also be removable... I am hoping to have them weld in a lower (yet non-NHRA legal), support bar for chassis stiffness. It will be permanent and mounted to the same plate that the front of the swingout bar will mount. chassis stiffness when the upper bar is removed is the goal here.

I made a sketch of all of this and it is attached below. I also will be getting the 5 point harnesses with the quick disconnect cam-lock style lock. I want the rear support bars to be bent so I can maximize trunk space and possibly put some sort of sound system on top of the trunk hump between the bars.



Since the roll bar project is delayed, I might go ahead an order the engine now. I was going to wait and do this early December but maybe I'll do it now. Nyes racing engines told me they get really busy starting early January, so November December is the best time to order it and have it built. I called and spoke to them a few weeks ago for about 25 mins. The engine (link above in other posts) will make 525+ streetable horsepower and 500+ tq. It makes power down low and mid range. This will work well with my 1 3/4" mid length headers since it will not be an all-out righ revving top end horsepower engine setup. The rings will be opened up for a 200-250 shot of nitrous as well.
I will be sent the complete build sheet with parts numbers, specs, and info. Engine comes dyno tested and with dyno sheet. 20-50 or 15-40 valvoline VR1 recomended. there should be no issues with blowby or cranckase pressures due to opening up rings for nitrous use. does not use a pcv system, just drop in breathers, Dart Pro1 heads on a Dart SHP block; the Dart specs can be found online....or if i find time i'll post them here.

-any final thoughts from the group before I order this??
when I call them this friday, I am going to ask about:
will I need a vaccum pump for brake system?
-does SHP block require a special type of ol pump or will basic SBC long/short just bolt right up?
-compression ratio?
-specific engine mounts for dart shp block or traditional sbc?
-throttle cable bracketry and TV cable advice?
-can I use evans waterless coolant in this all new engine and all new radiator/hose/pump setup?
-anything else??


so, any last advice on roll bar? might be leaning to mild steel bar. not sure if chrome moly is actually much weight savings... when I did the research its all about wall thickness and less material. CM is more brittle and needs to be tig welded. mild steel has more "bend" than break to it. more expensive for a few pounds of weight savings. and on a street car that will do moderate racing, I might go with mild-steel.?


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[TaKid455]

will I need a vaccum pump for brake system? - This is relative to cam. Engine builder will answer this. With today's advancements and your power level, I'd push to run it without. Less crap. I would look into an external vacuum scavenger/ remote breather system instead.

-does SHP block require a special type of ol pump or will basic SBC long/short just bolt right up? - Engine builder question.

-compression ratio? - you & engine builder. Don't polute that area. Stay below 11:1 - 10.5:1 for pump gas w/ Alum heads. This is also relative to cam as you can position the lobes to increase or decrease cyl pressure. I've made good power on 8.5-9:1 engines with proper cams. Watch the DCR. This is more critical.

-specific engine mounts for dart shp block or traditional sbc?
-throttle cable bracketry and TV cable advice? - keep it simple. I like to run factory stuff if its clean and works.

-can I use evans waterless coolant in this all new engine and all new radiator/hose/pump setup? - yes

-anything else?? - needs boost


so, any last advice on roll bar? might be leaning to mild steel bar. not sure if chrome moly - Don't crash

[Blackbirdws6]

My $0.02

- any final thoughts from the group before I order this?? Any chance to spend a little extra money to get the engine broken in on a dyno to confirm all is well before it goes into the car? I'd highly recommend this and it can help avoid finger pointing down the road. It also reduces your risk in breaking the engine in properly. New build, new things, short run cycles, iffy tuning, etc.

- will I need a vaccum pump for brake system? As mentioned, I would avoid this and comes down to cam selection. It doesn't sound like you are planning to go wild so you should be OK but def double check with the builder.

-does SHP block require a special type of ol pump or will basic SBC long/short just bolt right up? No clue, builder should know also as mentioned.

-compression ratio? Running 93 pump is the goal I assume so I'd run as much compression as you can with some safety buffer. I assume their 525 crank HP states the static CR and this should be easily doable. My engine (383 SBC basically, is 9.5:1 SCR and did 510+crank hp with a moderate boost cam) hopefully can put things into perspective.

-specific engine mounts for dart shp block or traditional sbc? Outside my wheelhouse, builder should know.

-throttle cable bracketry and TV cable advice?Keep it simple, if stock is bad then replace but if that will work, go with that.

-can I use evans waterless coolant in this all new engine and all new radiator/hose/pump setup? Yes

-anything else?? Remind me if you are going FI or if this will be a carb setup. I ask because there are some really interesting FI setups that may provide you with better engine control, safety mechanisms built in (especially on nitrous), etc.

As for the bar, I went mild steel as the weight savings wasn't a major priority (maybe it should have been haha) and the welders I knew at the time did not TIG.

[LTb1ow]

I may be out of my wheelhouse on this as well, but using such heavy oil weight to me seems like a sloppy engine build. (Now granted that could be normal for heavy N20 huffers) But I would inquire about that.

[wretched73]

I may be out of my wheelhouse on this as well, but using such heavy oil weight to me seems like a sloppy engine build. (Now granted that could be normal for heavy N20 huffers) But I would inquire about that.

Maybe the engine has a flat tappet cam and needs oil with the extra ZDDP the flat tappet requires?

IDK of any light weight oils with extra ZDDP but I could be wrong

[BonzoHansen]

flat tappet cam? no no no no no no. its not 1989. :lol:

Amsoil makes 10/30 in their z-rod line. But with a roller cam it isn't really needed.

I have roughly 14.5" at idle and have no power brake issues.


Edit: above link is beat, i think it is this one. That says roller lifters.
http://nyesautomotive.net/406_525hp_EFI.html
"Erson hydraulic roller cam and lifters"
"This engine is fully machined, balanced, assembled, and dyno tested."

If the builder says 40 or 50 weight, he should know, he set the bearing clearances.

[WildBillyT]

Maybe the engine has a flat tappet cam and needs oil with the extra ZDDP the flat tappet requires?

IDK of any light weight oils with extra ZDDP but I could be wrong

VR1 10w30 has enough. Not the cheapest but readily available.

I'm with Matt, I'd ask why 20w50 is spec'd.

[IROCZman15]

thanks for the replies fellas, much appreciated. I'll try to answer as much as I can here.

as for the oil, when I asked him which oil, he made mention of Zinc several times when telling me that the VR1 was his trusted suggestion. I will recheck with him about why. I am aware that AMSOIL also makes a zinc heavy oil (z-rod)so I'll see what his thoughts on that are as well.

I am glad to hear that I probably wont need a vac pump for the brakes. would love to avoid having to do all that. I would also prefer to use stock style/configured: water pump, motor mounts (rubber), and accessory drive configured components.

I have TPI currently so my TV able might work but not sure about my accelerator cable. also the throttle bracket will have to mount to the efi setup. I am not going with a carb because I am not a carb tuner. I am also not going with a complicated direct port injection, or any complicated ecu needing a laptop. It will get the Holley sniper unit that allows some tuning and datalogging. it has built in nitrous controller, fan contrllers, self contained ecu, small touchscreen display for dashboard, and is self learning. I would like to learn to tune eventually, but Im not jumping into it now. I am not smart enough and do NOT want to deal with self-caused problems and get pissed off if it goes awry. I want it to just work... dont care if I can gain a bit more power with a different ecu, not worth my sanity.

I will check with them about the compression ratios. I know he said it is street friendly and strip friendly so I am assuming it will be in that 10:5 range.

http://www.nyesautomotive.net/406_525hp_EFI.html
but with the upgraded Callies crank and rods, not the eagle rods


I think mild steel roll bar is going to be the winner come install time. Makes more sense to me. Thanks for the advice too

will probably order this bullet next week.

[sweetbmxrider]

When would you plan on having the door bars out but need the bracing there via the additional bars? Do you have sfc's already? Because that would seem redundant. I don't like the look of the rear bars either, I would question if it meets NHRA rules as well and if they would do their job when you need them most.

[IROCZman15]

Thanks for the input Adam. I’ll gladly take any and all input and opinions and think them over. As for the roll bar setup, my sketch is merely my ideas based off of some roll bars and roll cages I’ve seen in 3rd/4the gens that are dealing with power levels I hope to be at. I do have subframe connectors, I have the S&W subframe kit that has the main bars, a cross member and some floor bolt through plates with an outer bar to the drivers side rocker area too. I plan to keep the upper (NHRA legal) bars/swing-outs removed pretty often. I do plan to drive this car pretty aggressively on the street, at autocross, and of course at the strip. The way the S&W main sfc bars are, I’d say they are more inner compared to the bmr style that run along the rockers. If Im going to be throwing +500 tq n/a and perhaps nitrous at it, I would want to have a lower door bar there so I don’t expand the paint crack at the top of my windows/roofline to grow in the event that I get a little heavy on the throttle on the street. A goal of mine is to pull a wheelie on the street and in my driveway, so those lower bars would hopefully be good for the chassis flex. It’s a slightly crazy goal but With slicks and a torque-y motor... I can dream. When I get back over to S&W and drop the car off, I’ll chat about the roll bar design and they will have the finals say when it comes to safety and NHRA/SFI tech

Side note, I went to the concrete plant by my house today and was upset to learn how much weight I added to the car with the 12 bolt rear, beefier driveshaft, full sound system in, and a completely full gas tank but no driver..... 3,580. (+/- 20 pounds on their scale). Wow. I know I’ll be adding weight with the roll bad but I hope the engine project and engine bay cleanup can help me shave some down.
- put 71 miles on it today and did a few nitrous rips to the point where now I have no more bottle pressure to do any more in 2019.

[LTb1ow]

If you are sticking with a car that will be raced more than straight line stuff the nascar style double door bars is a good idea. The chances of another car trying to introduce itself to your body is higher in that aspect of racing. Pretty popular on protouring stuff.

[IROCZman15]

If you are sticking with a car that will be raced more than straight line stuff the nascar style double door bars is a good idea. The chances of another car trying to introduce itself to your body is higher in that aspect of racing. Pretty popular on protouring stuff.

very true. I will have a discussion with Mike and Randy at S&W when I drop the car off in a few weeks. If they think the double door bar is overkill, I wont do it. For me it was more about chassis rigidity since I do plan to keep the swing-out bars out of the car most of the time and only put them in when I am doing a track event.



spoke to Pat at Nyes Racing engines again today. valvoline 15-40 VR1 oil is his strong recommendation. I decided not to get a high capacity oil pan because I have read on thirdgen.org that the dyno-don's headers/y-pipe will not work with a non-stock oil pan... and I plan to reuse my dynodons setup for at least this next upcoming year. Dart SHP block will use a factory configured water pumps as well as factory style motor mounts. he will have the cam spec'd to provide good vacuum for the street and i should not need a vacum booster for the brakes. the static compression ratio will be around 10.4:1 or 10.5:1 and will run on 93 octane fuel. the engine will make awesome mid range hp as opposed to high rpm power. the engine will be given a full break-in while at their shop and then afterwards it will be put on their dyno and tuned. I requested videos and photos and he said sure thing.

engine order was placed today and payment was made for the bulk of it. it will arrive at my doorstep in about 4-5 weeks.

[IROCZman15]

about 3 more weeks until the engine arrives !

I dropped off the car at S&W racecars this morning. they wont be able to get to it next week due to other customer projects, but they were nice enough to let me drop it off early since I brought it to my in-laws for Thanksgiving and their house is 8 mins away from the S&W shop.

we discussed the lower permanent door bars and they agree that it would certainly aid in chassis strength since I will not be keeping the upper door bars in year-round. went with mid steel tube, all TIG welded joints, No diagonal support bars over to the driveshaft tunnel, Stroud 5 point 3" wide black harnesses with cam-lock. figured out my seat position and handed them the keys. was told a few weeks . when I go pick it up I am going to ask their opinions about flexplate and trans shields, the battery relocation, kill switch wiring, and how to get the SFI approval sticker on the roll bar.

[IROCZman15]

without going into too much detail yet, I figured I would just put a small and disappointing update on here.
.... I had a super unexpected, probably expensive, personal life-emergency come up recently. Not sure how much detail I'll disclose, but I had to make the wise decision to ask for the car back from S&W because I don't know how my situation will play out. They were very understanding, and I left them a few hundred bucks for their trouble. They made it very clear that i was certainly allowed to bring the car back to them in the future for the roll bar project. Luckily, they had not started on the car yet, so that was good and I went out there last week with my cousin to pick it up. I drove it home in the cold rain in traffic, and it made it, despite engine misfires and all that. S&W did already order the 5 point safety harnesses, so they will be shipping them to me. I'll either keep them or sell them online, but with no roll-bar in the car, they can't be installed.

Regarding the engine, I spoke to Nyes and they are also very understanding of the emergency. They offered to put things on hold for short term or even for long term and I will be getting back to them soon. They have the block machined already and most of the engine components have arrived.

That is it for now. not looking for any replies, but I am just working on figuring out some life stuff now and will get to car stuff as it comes.

I might have some $ and "free" time to still re-locate the battery to the trunk and put in a kill switch on the tail light. Something I have wanted to do for a LONG time regardless of future racing/tech rules. it is not too expensive and maybe I can work on it in the meantime as a smaller inexpensive project (when compared to the engine, roll bar, radiator etc). I'll have to study up on wiring diagrams and see how much cash I can re-allocate for wire, end terminals, clamps, and an on/off switch. shall see.
For many years I typically would disconnect the negative terminal on the battery when I was parking the car for anytime longer than a week, and that gets old, annoying, and has been opening up the threads on the optima terminal over time. An on/off switch would be a much better solution, and would allow more engine bay space etc. I'll do it so it is NHRA legal for if I ever do get to race this thing, so yea.
If/when I post about it, its just a small project I'm working on to keep myself content while sorting out the personal situation stuff. Any help/advice on the wiring is appreciated. I have already read a LOT and seen some diagrams online about it. I talked to Ron Francis wiring guys during the UMI autoX event too. I want it to be done right the first time and never to have to be altered ever again.

photos of it over at S&W
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[wretched73]

Sorry to hear about this update, hopefully you can get back on track sooner rather than later

[IROCZman15]

thanks man, I had a pretty well shaped plan for how the next 3 months would play out, but unfortunately things took an unexpected turn. roll bar can wait. I'll need the $ for other life things instead. The engine will still be built since I paid for 2/3 of it already and the block/parts are ready to be assembled. pat will send over photos once they get started.

In the meantime, I will be proceeding so relocate the battery to the rear of the car and install the master kill switch in the tail-light. After much research, I THINK I have come up with a proper gameplan.

I have attached a schematic that I drew, so if anyone sees anything wrong with it please let me know. Some people have had luck with not using a battery --> engine block ground wire, and just using chassis grounds, but I want to eliminate all possible sources of faulty electrical issues, so I plan on running one. Also, in the Ron Francis wiring booklet, it says to run this important ground wire.

Unsure if I am going to use welding wire, or just buy some SGX or SXL cable?

Also unsure about a plastic vs a metal battery box. It will be going sideways in the area of the trunk where the spare tire used to be mounted. I'll have to fab up a flat/level plate for it to sit on, and also mount it to the "frame-rail" under the car. Even though its an AGM optima battery, I'll have the box be vented. Thoughts about the best box to use?

Not wanting to put the dual "dump/charge? terminals outside the car like most drag cars have... instead I'll have a junction box/jump terminal mounted under the hood for the + jump spot. I have read that using a mega fuse on this line is a good idea.. but NOT to use any fuse on the positive battery/kill switch --> the starter wire since amps get high and it would blow the fuse often.

Double pole, single throw kill switch mounted in the rear drivers side tail-light.

Will ground both cylinder heads to eachother and then the block to the chassis, as well as the block back to the battery negative... and the battery negative to a chassis ground at the rear of the car.

a question I have (and may call holley about) is if I do turn the kill switch off often, when parking the car for short term, will this cause the "memory" and "settings" in my Holley Sniper EFI unit to be erased???

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[wretched73]

Looks good to me, I rewired the battery in my truck and that's how I did it.

Two quick things, that may not even be important-

Make sure 4g is big enough for your alt and how long that cable will be, and I'd also put an inline fuse between the alt and battery. People seem to go both ways on this, but I figured it wouldn't hurt

[LTb1ow]

Looks good to me, I rewired the battery in my truck and that's how I did it.

Two quick things, that may not even be important-

Make sure 4g is big enough for your alt and how long that cable will be, and I'd also put an inline fuse between the alt and battery. People seem to go both ways on this, but I figured it wouldn't hurt

I just bought a long spool of 0 gauge and ran one line from starter to kill switch and one line from alternator to battery.

Then a 0 gauge ground chassis to alternator case.

I do not have a fuse or circuit breaker on my setup, may look into it this winter pending how my car goes. Running a dedicated ground from block to battery may be overkill IMO.

[IROCZman15]

Went to Bruces speed shop today to see what he had for NHRA rated sealed battery boxes. Picked up the Taylor 48200 box for $93. it specifically holds the type of optima red top 75/25 battery that I have. I ran into a snag when i went to put the box in the spare tire location, .. the box is just about 1/2" too wide to fit down to the floor of that area. Its being blocked by the stamped metal support inside the fender, that I think is there primarily to hold the spare tire and jack. i will never be putting a spare tire back there, and I havent had one there in 10+ years anyways. I know that any metal in these cars around the body is structural of some sort, but would cutting/bending this stamped bracket have any huge negative consequence?

I looked for other NHRA rule 8:1 type legal battery boxes, and the dimensions of the ones that would qualify, well, most are wider.. actually nothing is narrower that will pass tech. I dont want the battery in the trunk well because I will need that space for sure. Thoughts on manipulating the inner fender bracket/spare tire mount to gain clearance in order to make the Taylor 48200 box work? Need photos?
__________________

[sweetbmxrider]

You either yank that or build a shelf to keep it at/above frame rail height.

[IROCZman15]

You either yank that or build a shelf to keep it at/above frame rail height.

awesome, thanks for confirming I was ok to do that. I went ahead and removed it. Built some shelves out of angle aluminum to sit the box on sideways. then through bolted it through the floor with 3"8 threaded rod (as per NHRA) while using some tube aluminum supports to act as vertical supports surrounding the 3/8" threaded rods to keep from pulling the box down when it is all tightened up. it is all loosely mocked up for now, and its pretty solid. I know we don't have an actual rear frame-rail there in our cars, but my aluminum angle is bolted to the U shaped stamped channel of the floor which is as close as we can get to a frame-rail I'd say. no photos currently.

I was working in the garage with the main door open just 2 days ago when that snow storm came by. snow flew in everywhere within a few minutes. what a mess!

pulled the nose and bumper and hood support and hood off of the car for the engine removal/install portion of this winter's projects. just to avoid scratches or clearance problems since I intend to pull and install the engine and trans together.


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The next area I have to handle is the battery disconnect switch. This car will be a street/strip/autocross car and I do want the switch to be mounted in the passenger tail-light (black panel by license plate) and I want it to be the type of switch that you turn (not a push/pull handle). My questions arise about the type and capacity of the switch :
-Should it be a 4 pole switch or the 2 pole switch? The car has an 1 wire alternator (Powermaster Model #37802) which produces 140 amps max and 95 amps idle.
- is a high capacity/weatherproof switch the type I need? such as the Longacre # 52-45791 switch ? max amps and continuous amps seem to fall within parameters? or longacre 52-45783 ? the car is a street car so weather and water might exist so i am thinking the "weatherproof" version is worth the extra $10
- http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1643&prodid=11288&pagetitle=Weatherproof-High-Capacity-Battery-Disconnect-w%2f-Panel---4-Terminal-
- I want a switch that has a "dress plate" like the one above for a cleaner install, but on the inside of the car, will I need to drill a big 3" hole in the sheetmetal in order to feed the thick wires to the back of the switch, or is the switch housing long enough that it will protrude past the inner sheetmetal. (I will be installing the oem black panel over everything when its completed, but was just curious if I should plan on cutting a huge hole to route the wires to the backside of the switch?
- I think the 3/8" stud size would work well with the 1gauge positive cables, but not sure if I went with 0 gaugge cables would need bigger terminals and a bigger stud size??

The wire itself:
- will 1 gauge welding wire be sufficient for the positive power wires connecting battery, switch, starter, amp, and junction block? or do I need to go find 0 or 1/0 wire? the local speed shop only has up to 1 gauge red wire and he says he uses it on all the race cars he builds with no problems.
- will 2 gauge black coated welding wire be sufficient for the ground wires. from battery to chassis, from cylinder heads to eachother and then to chassis, and a ground wire from engine block back to battery? or do I need to upsize the ground wire to something bigger than 2 gauge?

wire routing:
- see attached diagram. I created this after much research and I would like feedback from you guys who know this stuff well enough. the one thing I am defintiely unsure about is, should the power wire coming from the alternator be going to the optima battery, or go to one of the studs on the kill switch? I'm thinking this would depend on if I got a 2 pole vs a 4 pole kill switch right? or ?

fuses:
- I intend to run a 175 or 200 amp megafuse on the positive wire coming from the alternator and heading to the back of the car (see above..either to batt +, or to kill switch terminal). a fuse here is a good idea right?
- I also intend to put a fuse after the junction block (in engine bay) on the wire leading to the fuse block... the junction block will send power to the starter's solenoid and to the fuse panel. a smaller fuse would be needed here since I plan to use 8 gauge wire from the JB to the fuse panel. correct? The junction block can also act as a jump-post for if I need to jump start the car from the front ?



please let me know your thoughts and tech advice. my next step is to find the proper kill switch, order it and install it. then remove some interior components and run string-lines in the car and engine bay to get an approximate number of feet I will need when ordering all the wire. then I'll have to know what size wire is ok, as mentioned above 1g for power and 2 g for ground? or ?


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[LTb1ow]

For the sake of keeping my battery terminals clean/simple, there is only one lead per post. Hot to switch and ground to chassis.

Alternator hot feeds the battery post on the switch if I remember correctly, I can check later today. Other side of switch has starter/car power/fuel pump.(Two post switch)

On the topic of fuses, technically if you want to protect all runs, you would want a fuse on the hot side right at battery, and one right at alternator. That would protect both runs while engine was running.

[sweetbmxrider]

Alternator and battery are on the same side of the switch, yes.

Grounds should be equal to power leads.

Your link doesn't work but I looked around a bit and saw what you were referring. Its tough to tell with that switch but the push pull style can be shortened up to have a clean install and keep it tight to the sheetmetal without a foot of rod out the back if you know what I mean. I was thinking you could make an extension for the rotary style you are looking at but you would have to figure it out after purchasing.

I'm not sure why they do separate circuits for the alternator on the 4 pole style. I never had an issue with a 2 pole.

On the topic of fuses, technically if you want to protect all runs, you would want a fuse on the hot side right at battery, and one right at alternator. That would protect both runs while engine was running.

What about a fuse on battery ground?

[LTb1ow]

Alternator and battery are on the same side of the switch, yes.


What about a fuse on battery ground?

On a ground, you would only worry about a hot lead shorting to it. So if you have your hots protected, then the ground can be sans fuse.

Now, that goes out the window IF your main ground point is a lousy one and the line shorts to ground providing a better ground and then arcing. But thats pretty out there odds wise.

[sweetbmxrider]

On a ground, you would only worry about a hot lead shorting to it. So if you have your hots protected, then the ground can be sans fuse.

Now, that goes out the window IF your main ground point is a lousy one and the line shorts to ground providing a better ground and then arcing. But thats pretty out there odds wise.

I meant fuse the battery ground instead of fusing the alternator and battery.

And personally, I'd look into circuit breakers that can be reset if a short does occur.

[IROCZman15]

cool, thanks guys. much appreciated. it may be overkill but I will runa 1 gauge ground cable from the engine block --> the battery terminal. Ron Francis and other sources recomend this. so that would mean I would have two ground wires coming into the battery box. one for the battery --> chassis ground at the rear of the car, and another for the battery--> engine block ground. I'll have to drill another hole in the Taylor box then, and use a gromet to seal it... if that is legal to add another hole to the box?


from my calculations I will need:
about 48 feet of red 1 gauge power wire
31 feet of black 1 gauge ground wire
18 1 gauge ring terminals for 3/8" studs
2 battery terminal mounts 1 gauge
2 fuses (or possibly resettable circuit breakers???)
10 feet of 8 gauge red power wire (from junction box to dashboard fuse panel)
2 8 gauge ring terminals
a 4 post weatherproof kill switch (longacre 52-45791)


I have never looked into a re-settable circuit breaker setup. didnt know it was a thing for automotive electrical. any links to specific ones you would recommend??? I have the high output alternator (specs listed above) and a high torque mini starter, and might eventually put a amp/sub woofers back in the car also...

[TaKid455]

1 GA should be fine but we always run 1/0. Always a power & ground front to rear along with the rear chassis ground. The diagram has a ground going from L - R on the block. Sure but not necessary unless you maybe have ground junctions on each head for the later EFI stuff. Maybe I am mis reading it. Didn't see a body ground from the engine/ frame to the body. Yes , its a unibody but still. This can be a simple braided cable. Nothing fancy.

Always get more length than you calculate and see where the price breaks are. A few bucks may get you a bit more length. Dont forget good shrink tubing. We use soldier pellet lugs for 4 ga and larger. You may find it cheaper to get supplies from multiple sources.

I agree with the resettable CB idea over fuses. You're fuse box will handle the fuse loads(systems) .

[IROCZman15]

Thanks Larry!
Bruces speed shop only had the 1 gauge wire in house, but they can order more of it, or 1/0 if I request it. unfortunately their shop will be closed from X-mas all the way to January 2.. so that's unfortunate. Therefore I was considering buying the wire tomorrow and some terminals to just get started, but probably not having everything I'd need to complete the job. Bruce has always been friendly with me, and he told me that If I buy cables and terminals from him, he would gladly let me use his $600 hydraulic lug/terminal compressor in the back of the shop with his help. I shop there often, but sometimes the prices are high. Their price for 1gauge welding cable is 20 cents and inch. ... So I'm undecided if I'll buy everything there, or shop around elsewhere instead.

As for the ground connecting both cylinder heads, I had read somewhere that it was a good idea, but its extra, and not really required. Also, There is a wire from the engine block/head to the body/chassis, its a blue line and is drawn by cylinder #1 in my sketch. Larry, Is this what you are referring to, or did you mean another ground wire I am missing still? Please let me know. I've seen that braided/woven ground lines often, I could do that, or use some sheathed black 1 gauge wire remaining from my other grounds, but I'll definitely have one from the engine block/heads --> chassis/frame.

When I was measuring, I was a bit generous with the measurements. I err'ed on the side of adding a bit extra wire. I even built in a 1 foot "slack loop" that I will leave under the rear passenger seat bucket in case lines/wires need to be moved or adjusted. My first thought was that I might need the slack for a future roll bar install (at S&W hopefully), and if I ran the lines tight along the doorframe, they would have extreme difficulty getting them slacked enough to be moved in order to safely weld down the 6"x6" floor plate for the main roll bar hoop. So i've added in some extra length to the lines.

I have read about the solder pellets. If for some reason I decide not to use Bruce's hydraulic wire crimper and go the solder route, I will do it with solder pellets.


I gotta do some research next about this re-settable circuit breaker!! that concept is brand new to me. I would like to mount it in the spare-tire area to be hidden but accessible. what line(s) would it go on? a heavy amp one on the line coming from alternator --> kill switch??? how about a lower amp one on the line going from the engine bay junction box--> the under dash fuse panel ?? none on the line going to the starter right?

Thanks guys!

[wretched73]

For what its worth, Stock my truck had Negative battery -> frame -> block -> drivers side head -> pass head -> firewall -> hood

So since cyl head to cyl head ground was done on a stock vehicle, I'd definitely do it on any other vehicle.

I wouldn't do a slack loop, That is a lot of waste and a lot of mess. IMO, you're overthinking a bit here. S&W is professional, they won't have a problem moving some wires to avoid burning them

[IROCZman15]

thanks man. I eliminated the slack loop idea. I still may generate some slack when i finally mount all of the wiring down, so that should give some play for future roll bar install.



today I bought 75 feet of 1 gauge wire, in red.* Bruce did not have any 1 gauge in black, and for some reason the black was going to be almost twice the price for the same size 1 gauge wire if they had to order it.* so I just got 75 feet of 1 gauge red. I will clearly label it as " - ground" with the new label maker I bought, every foot or so once I finally mount the cable in the car.*

today I also bought a 200 amp re-settable optifuse weatherproof circuit breaker to install in-line between the alternator and where that line connects to the kill switch.* it will be about 18" away from the kill switch. (does this sound right, is this the correct type of circuit breaker?!).* I also bought a red junction block/jump post that I will be mounting up in the area where the battery USED to be. it will have the battery feed line terminal, the starter feed terminal (both 1 gauge 3/8 hole) and then a smaller gauge terminal/wire that will go to a smaller distribution block nearby, that I can run all my positive leads and relays positive wires to ..(taking them off of the starter's lug, and also for MSD box, and nitrous relay).*

I laid out the 1 gauge cable throughout the car, cut it to length, and labeled it.* I put shrink wrap onto the cable loosely, prior to cutting off the insulation on the ends, and loosely installing the 3/8 terminals* (I used a 5/16" hole terminal for the alternator connection, its smaller).*I tried to "clock" them accordingly, so that once they are crimped, the wire wont need to be twisted to have the terminal sit flush. tomorrow I will go to the speed shop and use his hydraulic press to crimp all these terminals on.* then i can run the wire in the car and secure it down.*

I will NOT be using those taylor battery post mounts in the photo. instead I am using the ones just to the left that are crimp on style, instead of the taylor screw-together style.


the last thing I need to buy (i think.. I hope) is the longacre 4 post weatherproof high-capacity kill switch* part number*52-45791* * *.anyone have any thoughts or other recommendations*on this switch? or else I'll buy it tonight.*


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[sweetbmxrider]

Sorry between the holidays and the server being down, I wasn't able to hop on here. Circuit breaker looks good, emergency vehicles usually have that or something similar for all of the additional gear installed.

I was going to suggest getting in touch with Brian to see what heat shrink he used. You might have the right stuff but it has that weatherproofing snot inside that melts out and makes a nice bead at the end of the wrap. Really nice stuff, just gradually build the heat up into it. Once you find the sweet spot, you will have some nice looking heat shrink ends!

[IROCZman15]

thanks. glad you guys mentioned the circuit breaker idea. once I did some research on it, I realized it was going to be much better than an ANL fuse since I would just have to re-click the circuit breaker if needed, instead of carrying around a pack of fuses and wrench to change them out (if ever needed).
- I wish I had got the adhesive lined shrink-wrap, with the glue like you mentioned. I have a cheaper brand that just shrinks. I've seen the glue lined stuff.. I think we used it in our 24 hours of lemons car.


sorry in advance for the long, detailed, update here....


I ordered the longacre kill switch, and it will be here on thursday. when I get it's front dress plate mounted, and gently carve out some of the plastic tail-light housing structure behind it, how am I going to get the four 1 gauge wires to the back of the switch.. I am pretty sure I'm going to have to cut some hole(s) in the car's sheet-metal, especially to fit the four large wires, that all have to come in at different angles, to sit on the 4 posts of the switch. I was wondering how people did theirs basically. I know the inner trunk plastic dress panel will cover any holes I have to make in the metal, but I was curious how others had routed their wiring from inside the car, to the back-side of the switch basically. somehow the 4 wires have to get through the sheetmetal behind the tail-light



I brought all the mocked-up wiring over to Bruce's speed shop and used his hydraulic press back in the workshop area. that thing is cool and did a damn good job crimping on all of the 1 gauge terminals.... except the two terminals for the battery posts.. we soldered those ones together. photos below.

I then routed all of the wires in the car, labeled them accordingly, and mounted them in place with a combination of 1/2" clamps and zip-ties. Aside from the 4 wires that mount to the kill-switch, I have everything taken care of in the trunk area and the interior of the car.. up to where the wires will enter into the engine bay, by the firewall and lower foot panel on the passenger side

I wired the ground wire, alternator wire, and starter wires up momentarily in the engine bay. then I bolted the "companion connections" together where the kill switch will go, and then hooked up the battery. turned the car on, and let it run for a minute. was happy that it started and ran! I then unbolted one of the 2 "connections" that are where the kill switch will be (battery wire -> all engine bay wiring) and the engine instantly died. dome light an other electronics died also. Awesome. Next I tried the same with the other set of connections that will be at the kill switch (alternator-->circuit breaker-->battery). engine was running and immediately shut off when I undid the bolt. great! So, it seems like the wiring is correct and once the kill switch is in, it all should work properly. cool!
... question though, should the engine die when I click the circuit-breaker to trigger it "blowing"? I had the engine running and I hit he button to trigger the circuit breaker, but the engine did not turn off or do anything at all... should it have? or is the circuit breaker just there in case of a massive amp spike, yet will not impede current if I were to manually trip it?? is the circuit breaker "directional" and perhaps I have the feed in/out connections to it backwards? its in-line between the alternator wire and the kill switch wire, mounted in the trunk close to the battery box and kill switch area.. not underhood. you can see it in one of the photos below, should i flip it upside down in case it is directional??


I have a 4 post kill switch coming in the mail, not the 2 post style.
the longacre wiring schematic can be viewed here: http://www.longacreracing.com/instructions.aspx?item=46345&article=High%20Capacity%20Battery%20Disconnect%20S witch


Positive wiring setup goes like this"
~ Battery top post ---> post A on kill switch ---> large junction post in engine bay --> one wire to starter and another to the future positive junction strip
~ 95/145 amp 1 wire alternator ---> 200 amp circuit breaker mounted in the trunk area ---> post B on kill switch ---> battery side terminal


Ground:
~ Battery top post ----> engine block ---> chassis ground (and soon will be grounding both cylinder heads together as well)
~ battery side post ---> chassis/frame ground at rear frame-rail of car

with the 4 post style kill switch, I thought this was the appropriate place to put the circuit breaker. I know the circuit breaker is not a kill switch, but I had figured that if I manually tripped it, the car would shut off. I guess not though .....
..... the reason I did not put any type of fuse or circuit breaker on the battery--> starter wire is because I read that the huge power surge that the starter needs to function would constantly trip the breaker/fuse. I had read that a circuit breaker should only be used in the alternator line in case of a problem power surge, the circuit breaker would trip.. and prevent harm to anything beyond the circuit breaker. is this correct? I am not a pro at this, so I am doing research and asking questions while trying to learn and understand as best as I can.




got the bulk of the interior back installed. once the kill-switch is here, i'll wire that up and take the car out for a short drive. after that, I'll be spending the rest of the winter working in the engine bay.. pulling out the old engine, redoing brake lines, eliminating proportioning valve, removing old radiator, removing old wiring and relays, welding up unused holes, primer, paint, and then installing the new engine.

some photos below of the progress... let me know if anything seems odd or wrong. thanks guys


the taylor box is bolted through the "floor" of the spare tire well, but it does not sit on the "floor". I built two aluminum side-shelves on each side of it, bolted the bottom of the box to these. next, I used the NHRA required 3/8" threaded rod to bolt the whole battery and box assembly to the "floor" of the spare tire unibody. I also cut some hollow aluminum tube to use as spacers between the bottom of the box and the foor.... to keep the box from deforming if I cranked too hard on the nuts at each end of the 3/8" rod. it may sound confusing, and I wish I took a photo of it, but it is damn solid.



Next, I am currently searching for a nice looking power distribution block to put up in the engine bay. I'll want to fuse this also. I am not sure if I want to/or need to use a ground wire junction block. I had planned on running the grounds in the engine bay over to a nice clean metal part of the chassis. should I use a distribution block?

here are some that I have in mind:
1. https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...f90AR8Q8wIIhwM

2. https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...DHQ4PBDzAgjzAg


3. https://www.ebay.com/i/152141092075?...UaApOvEALw_wcB


4. https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...f90AR8Q8wII6QI


thoughts? do I need a ground junction block? what size fuse should I put prior to the power distribution block so it doesn't get blown away if something goes awry when the starter is cranking?

Basically the Battery postive line will go to a positive jump-post in the engine bay. one wire will go directly to the starter. the other wire will go to a 150(??)amp in line circuit breaker, and then it will go to the power distribution block for all things engine and chassis that require a positive power lead.

I was thinking this for the distribution block because it has several large and several small screw terminals to use. thoughts? https://12voltconnection.com/product...busbar-3-8-red

And for the circuit breaker (instead of an ANL fuse) I was thinking this: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...iABEgKcxvD_BwE
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[sweetbmxrider]

If the circuit breaker is inline with the alternator charge wire, its only going to stop the alternator from charging the battery. You would continue to run off of the battery. Its purpose is to prevent excessive amperage that would cause the wire to heat up, melt through the insulation, and arc out against the body/ground. I had suggested putting it on the ground wire from the battery to the chassis. I think you are running two now so you wouldn't be able to do this but the idea would be the surge of amps would still trip the breaker, it would protect all of the wiring instead though. Of course, I could be dead nuts wrong :rofl:

[wretched73]

Wiring looks good.

Honest question, what is the benefit of 4 terminal battery disconnect vs 2 terminal?

[IROCZman15]

yes, thanks Adam. I sometimes get in my own thoughts too much and forget that the simplest answer is usually true. So you are right, the alternator was disconnected when i triggered the circuit breaker, but this alone will not stop the engine from running off of battery. makes sense.


wretched73: thanks. I read a lot about 2 post vs 4 post switches. I am not using a remote starter solenoid which could complicate things more.. and I didnt want to run the alternator wire back to be on the same terminal of the kill switch as the battery feed will be on..because.... Even though a 2 pole switch will take away power to the ecm and fuel pump etc, the alternator still feeds the battery for a moment or two while it slows down. the way my simple brain (still learning this topic as I go along) understands it, is that a 4 terminal switch instantly cuts/separates all the battery, alternator, electrical feeds instead of allowing the alternator to have a short "run on" period, which could be dangerous in a bad crash/emergency? but, when the alternator power is cut-off abruptly, a random surge can possibly pass through the wire and cause problems/spikes.. which is why a circuit breaker device is used to halt that surge. the 4 post switch adds in the need for a few extra wires, but it is recommended to ensure quick and immediate power disconnect for everything in an instant.

anyone else with more knowledge care to elaborate and/or to correct me?


I just ordered a 150 amp circuit breaker and the bus-bar/distribution block a little while ago.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZM7DLZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZM7DLZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KVW7F5X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KVW7F5X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I don't think I'll be using the black "ground" one, but I might decide to. unsure if I want all grounds going to it, or If I will just run grounds elsewhere nearby each component that needs a ground. I might use the block though, . I'll have to see how much space I have in the old battery tray area and how I can lay things out; neatly, spaced apart, and safely.


thanks for the help everyone. keep the comments, suggestions, and advice coming. This is my first time doing this, and I want it to be done correctly.

[IROCZman15]

My Longacre 4 terminal switch arrived and I had some time to install it to test my wiring.
the switch (and my wiring) works!! car fires up, and when I flip the switch off, it kills everything instantly. AWESOME

switch works great. a very solid click when turned on/off. I tested voltage at many connection points and terminals. battery itself was 12.33 volts. I got pretty much that same exact number at every connection point...even up in the engine bay at the jump-post, I got 12.32 volts!!

Project complete


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and a video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y9kT-HgKb8

https://youtu.be/3y9kT-HgKb8







next, I'll probably drive the car around a little bit just to enjoy a running engine for a few more miles. then, I'll switch focus to the engine bay, and begin removing what needs to come out.

I am still super bummed out about not being able to have the roll bar and seat-belt harness project done this winter. it will have to wait. the harnesses did arrive, and just to make myself more bummed out I laid them onto the seats just to get an idea of what it would look like. sad

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also, I have to install the junction block/distribution block in the engine bay, and the 150 amp circuit breaker too. those just arrived yesterday.


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[wretched73]

Install looks nice and clean, looking forward to more progress

[IROCZman15]

picked up the 3 ton engine hoist from my neighbor. I plan to take the old engine out with the trans attached to it.* if that proves too difficult, I will seperate them.* He also let me borrow a transmission jack too.*


Today I drove the car for one last time with this engine in it. it was mid 40 degrees here in NJ today.* The car ran rough, stalled while idling a few times, and SES light was on.* This engine has been in the car for 19 years and has had a lot of use/abuse. It has served me very well enough for a little 305 Gm replacement engine that was never ment to have 20-25 bottles of nitrous fed through it recent years. It is time for an upgrade, but it does feel sad to take a "running" engine out of the car and make the car inoperable for a short period of time.* luckily it is winter and I dont need to have the car road worthy for a few months.*

Then I parked it in the garage and removed the nitrous solenoids, nitrous wiring, nitrous lines,* evap canister and vacuum hoses, radiator, fans, trans cooler, etc.**

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my magnetic trans fluid filter did have some metallic sludge on it, butt here is no way for me to tell if this was accumulate in the radiator's trans cooler from the previous transmission meltdown back in 2016. even though I did flush it out then, if you read some of the older posts in this thread, I had a piece of old trans debris get stuck in the valve body of the new trans from Dana at Probuilt automatics a few years ago. I then put in the magnetic trans fluid filter, but have never checked it or replaced it (until now).* I plan on getting a new aluminum (but on the more budget friendly $ spectrum) and hope that it and my B&M trans cooler will be clean and clear for years to come.

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i guess next I will start removing the alternator, PS pump, headers, wiring, and transmission related stuff.* I'll drain trans fluid and engine oil also.*

​​​​​​​anyone have any thoughts or input so far?

[Joey D]

Leme know when engine cmn out. If im off ill comeby and help

[wretched73]

Just FYI, It is a real PITA to remove trans and engine because you need to clear the radiator support. I'd suggest unbolting the trans and taking them out separately.

[LTb1ow]

If 4th gens are like 3rd gens, I would say just pull car off of engine/K member and trans/cross member. Very simple to do. Roll the assembly out, then yank motor off K if you need to toss it back under the car to remain a roller.

[IROCZman15]

thanks fellas.
yea, I have seen a bunch of guys on thirdgen.org take the engine/trans/cradle out from the bottom. It might be the way I do things in the future, but I wanted to try it the traditional way this time, which is my first time for an engine pull on a 3rd gen. I have fought with coil springs before, and it was a toss-up between the out the top method and fighting the bellhousing bolts VS. fighting the coil springs back into place if I took the whole front cradle out.

even though I have a 3 ton hoist, and took out the radiator etc, I listened to some wise advice from people here and TGO and decided to take the engine out and trans out seperately.. this time.

So, I removed the transmission today in a few short hours. driveshaft iout, trans lines are also out, converter, and the DynoDons y-pipe are also removed also. since it is my first engine pull on this type of vehicle, its probably much safer and less risky to simply just pull the engine out on it own.. right out of the top.

I plan to do this Saturday, unless the rain seems to be a problem. Joey D said he might come help, as well as a few neighbors. I am hoping it is pretty simple and things go well.

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[wretched73]

IIRC make sure the distributor comes off before you yank the motor. I didn't and it made life more difficult than it needed to be.

[IROCZman15]

Cool, I had read that on TGO as well.
Full distributor removed right, not just the cap ?

[wretched73]

Yup, full thing. It gets really cuz of the wipers

[IROCZman15]

Engine is out!

prior to hooking up the engine I removed: distributor, alternator, evap canister, wiper motor, vac lines, fuel lines, power steering lines, the complete wiring harness, transmission, tv cable, throttle cable, headers, y-pipe, spark plugs, fans, radiator, trans cooler, etc. all that was left was the 2 thru-bolts in the engine mounts.


Joey D and one of my neighbors came by today and we setup the hoist and load leveler and pulled out the engine pretty quickly and effortlessly. I was going to do a video, but decided just to do a few photos instead.





So I guess next will be to remove the steering box and ship that out for a full rebuild. start figuring out the sheetmetal work... basically I want to fill in some of the unused holes and smooth them over before painting in there. I also want to make a few sheetmetal panels to mount the underhood wiring components (distribution block, charging post, relays, circuit breaker, etc) onto. I also plan to redo the brake lines, and completely eliminate the combination valve/proportioning valve all together. I want to get some NiCop lines and flare them neatly and not run them right next to the exhaust header like factory ones were.

For me and my skill level, the hardest part of this whole project is going to be the wiring and connections. I can do the basic wiring stuff, but nothing super advanced. PolarBear offered to help me out and possibly even build a new harness. My old harness has so much stuff on it, and I would love to only keep what I need for components like the body connections, alternator, wipers, fans, O2 sensor, coolant temp sensor/senders, etc. This will be a challenge for me, so i might have a LOT of questions for the board as time goes on.


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question about this... this distributor and cap are 10 months old. why is one of the plug terminals a very different color? its from jegs. the whole unit.
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[sweetbmxrider]

Looks good. The wiring is easy, plenty of knowledge on this board to guide you with that. I'd send that pic to jegs and see if they'll replace it. Almost seems like that one post is a different quality metal and oxidized or something like that.

[IROCZman15]

yea, when I get some time, I'll call or email Jegs about it. looks like its a different metal on that one distributor cap's post. very interesting, but odd.


project update:
after pulling the engine out on Saturday, I removed the rest of the "stuff" in the engine bay. brake booster, brake master cylinder, line lock, old combination valve, brake lines, fuel lines, steering shaft, steering box, msd box, aluminum firewall plate, engine mounts, etc.

I shipped the oem steering box out to www.powersteering.com and they will do a full rebuild/refresh on it. since its the original one with 175,000 miles on it, and I plan to keep this car for a long time, as well as wanting to do more autcross, it felt like a smart decision. One of the fittings was frozen in the box, so in removing the fitting (of the return line) it broke.... I will need a new "return" hose aka "fluid cooler" line, so I'll have to find somewhere that sells those. any suggestions? Is the $13 one from autozone and advanced auto parts pretty much good enough?

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I got the motor mounts out, and took them apart. the rubber was deformed, but not destroyed. I ordered some Polyurethane ones from Prothane. they should be here friday. I'll paint the metal clamshell and install the poly inserts, but have heard its quite a challenge to get the new mount's bolted into place...

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I de-greased the K member and lower body/suspension parts. Did a bunch of cleanup work and stripping with the wire wheel as well. I then got out the welder and spent a good amount of time filling in probably upwards of 30 holes in various parts of the engine bay sheetmetal that I don't plan on ever needing. They were mostly from the factory and were used to mount many components that I have removed from the car permanently. I then did a single coat of body filler, and starting tomorrow I will be sanding that down and doing another layer. then primer



I also had a large 3" wide U-bolt/clamp that I used to make a "tow hook" for possible future use. If this car ever needs to be brought around on a trailer or towed, I wanted a central hook/reciever that I could strap tow hooks to. I welded a piece of steel angle iron to the tapered section of the K member to make a larger flat bottom to the Kmember. then I welded the U bolt to it horizontally. I wish I had an ARC welder with me, but I did the best I could with my Mig welder. I did as many passes as it took, and the welds got sloppy after a while, but hopefully it is structurally solid. Bonus: it also gives me a larger flat spot for me to put a floor jack. I always hated putting the floor jack on the K member because of the small flat area right next to the angled/tapered front section. The new to hook is horizontal so it only added about 1/2 in reduced ground clearance...however my S&W torque arm crossmember, exhaust, and air dam plastic are much lower than this new tow hook is, so it will not be the lowest object under the car.

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Next I have to work on cutting some panels out of 1/8" think aluminum to clean up the firewall, battery tray, evap charcoal canister tray, and some other open areas. I plan to sheet metal screw OR rivet these in place, and then they will get painted red like the rest of the underhood sheetmetal.


I also gotta take some time out to work on the brake system and figure out what fittings/adapters I will need. I will be buying a 25' roll of 3/16" Nickel-Copper line and making my own lines for a clean and orderly appearance.

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Below are some photos of where I filled holes on the framerails, firewall, upper radiator support, and strut towers. Welded the holes shut and ground them smooth.

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[IROCZman15]

several sessions of body filler, sanding, smoothing, and finally, the holes I wanted to fill are now hidden. I then got some 1/8" aluminum sheet-metal for $30 at a local sheetmetal place in Dover. Made up some paper templates for the firewall, battery tray, evap canister tray, and some of the areas on the inner fenders that were left open from the factory and seem unsightly to me. the one on the passenger side with the horizontal hole cut in it if for the three 1-gauge wires to come through (power, power, and ground). the plate where the battery used to be will be where my power distribution block will be, a jump post, and a 150 amp circuit breaker. so far, nothing will be on the drivers side plate. maybe in the future I could mount a small fuel cell for a nitrous system's independent fuel pump.


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I acid etched the primer and seam sealed the aluminum panels in place. I don't mind the sheetmetal screws, since I am not going for any Riddler awards with this car, and also because I can't weld aluminum. I know some people will not like the screw heads, but thats the only way i could think to do it, knowing rivets weren't really a feasible option. its still just a street car built in a my small garage.


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Sanded the every surface underhood with 220 sandpaper. wiped everything with prep-solution and tack-cloths. I sprayed 3 coats of primer. was nice to see everything in "one color" for a change.

I toyed with the idea of removing the UMI strut tower mounts and painting under them. For the first time in years, I am super incredibly happy with the alignment I currently have on the car; since I have redone the alignment in the spring of the past 4 years. I am getting tired of bringing it somewhere only to have the shop be leery of setting the specs to my request, and STILL have yet to find a shop that helped me set it exactly how I wanted it to be. Therefore I decided to leave the strut tower mounts exactly where they are and keep my alignment. The new engine and battery relocation will change my corner weights, but i won't know how that will effect the car until it is all set and done. If the alignment is way wacky then. I'll get it corrected.. and figure out a way to touch up the paint under the strut mounts if they are to shift significantly in any direction.


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Today, my dad came over and we painted. Dupont (Nason)brand Flame Red, which is the exact same color as the exterior of the car. prior to this year, my engine bay paint was simply rattle can paint that I would spray every few years. no more of that! He used to paint custom vans, choppers, and cars back in the 70's and 80's, and was locally famous for his air-brush murals. (see this link for his old artwork https://www.freewebs.com/iroczman15/mydadsoldartwork.htm ). he sprayed the first coat of paint to show me how it was done, and then I sprayed the remaining 3 coats. 4 in total.



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Polyurethane motor mounts from Prothane arrived.
I will install them in a day or two, after I paint the K-member, steering linkages, and radiator opening with POR15 black, by hand. does the orientation of the mount look correct to you guys? I referred back to my photos to figure out the position of the metal tabs in the insert, but if something is wrong, please let me know asap


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next is the POR15 black chassis paint, and then I wills tart working on the brake line system and positions.

[Joey D]

If only everyone who works on their cars was as detail oriented and meticulous as you the car world would be a better place. Nice work.

[IROCZman15]

thanks Joe

I got the K-member and some other chassis/suspension components cleaned up and then coated with black POR-15 turned out nice.

Also mocked-up and bent all new NiCopp brake lines too. I will finish those and post photos tomorrow once everything has been adjusted and the system is tested. will need to bench bleed the master and also bleed the systemwhile checking for leaks.
-was considering going to a DOT5.1 fluid (not DOT 5), but I am unsure. I wont be doing any road course racing this year, possibly just autoX, drag racing, and street duty. thoughts on brake fluids?

also, I am beginning my research for an aluminum radiator. direct fit if possible. it wont be blocked by any A/C condenser, so it will get a straight blast of moving air from the camaro's open grill. I plan to use the two factory puller fans, which will be controlled by the Holley Sniper. thoughts and opinions on radiators. Trying to stay around the $400 range.. not the $900 range of the high end radiator companies. 2 or 3 core, but as Direct fit as possible. full aluminum with automatic transmission cooler fluid ports too.

I was also thinking about the evans waterless coolant since everything in the cooling system will be new and I won't need to cleanse the system out of old coolant. Does evans coolant allow me to NOT need a coolant overflow tank then? I read that somewhere... and that could save me some money if I didnt need an overflow/reserve tank?

[IROCZman15]

So I got the K-member, tow hook, steering components, radiator housing, and wonderbar painted black with some POR-15.
I also painted the brake booster gloss black, as well as the UMI strut mounts, just to freshen things up.
I also installed the Prothane Polyurethane motor mounts.. and I think they are facing the right way up too!



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I bought a 25' roll of Nickel Copper NiCopp 3/16" brake tubing as well as a variety of fittings and bent up my own brake lines.* I wanted something much cleaner and more simple than stock. I eliminated the stock style combination valve/proportioning valve, because I already have an in-line Wilwood valve mounted under the car that I can adjust with the knob adjuster.* I think the brake like project came out nice and it is simple, clean, and now the brake lines don't pass* millimeters away from any of the hot exhaust headers or rotating steering shaft.* I bench bled the master cylinder, and then my wife helped me bleed the whole brake system while checking for leaks.* *all went well


here is the old brake line mess:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49391881398_d61d34acaa_c.jpg



and the new setup:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49436585566_3e406ebc23_c.jpg


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49436806802_048e29c310_c.jpg

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I started to install the under-hood electrical components (Positive power jump-post, 150 amp circuit breaker, and power distribution block.. but thats about as far as I can go for now.. until the engine arrives in a* few weeks, and then I can figure out what wire lengths I need for the array of electrical components.


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So, in the meantime....
I'm struggling to figure out the best choices for my cooling system overhaul. I made a thread about it here..
* **https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/cooling/768081-affordable-aluminum-radiator-water.html
ANY advice is super appreciated!!!



FYI I am not a mechanic; this is simply a hobby for me.. and I* know I got involved in a big project here. So far it is going very well. Lots of research here on njfboa, but mostly on TGO and elsewhere has helped.. but I am definitely hoping for some more feedback from the group here!* * basically,* if I am making any bad (or good) choices regarding parts, mechanics, etc, PLEASE let me know. I would rather know about it now and fix whatever I can, instead of troubleshoot a bigger problem later.* I know I am going to have some difficulty with the wiring (and eliminating the factory harness/electronics) so I am certainly going to need some help with that.

thanks guys

[BonzoHansen]

I am very happy with the 3 core Mishimoto radiator I bought. Got it from Josh.

[sweetbmxrider]

Ceramic coat all that beautiful paintwork now! Since you drive the **** outta your car :lol:

[IROCZman15]

thanks Scott and Adam. Man, I wish I had the $ to ceramic coat the paint job. that would be helpful. sadly, I have no way to get the car to a place, and my budget for this build has gotten much much tighter since Early December (I had to abort the roll--bar part of the build). I'll do my best to keep the paint clean and pretty underhood

I did see that Mishimoto rad for sale and I remember you discussing it with me at the UMI event. it is one of my top contenders



I hope to place the order for the cooling system parts at the end of this current week.

- Fans: using stock ones with self-built relays and wiring (have had much advice from Polar Bear with the wiring, he is a huge help) I will use TWO 40 amp relays ..one per fan. fans will be controlled for on/off temps by the holley sniper unit, which is a negative ground trigger ? i think? and then from the +power bus-bar I will use a 6" fusible link wire (14 gauge) connected to a 10 gauge power wire.


- Thermostat and housing - still To be determined...


- Evans waterless coolant: 4 gallons


- Hoses - basic rubber ones from local auto parts store


- coolant expansion tank: an inexpensive fabricated/polished aluminum one, preferably with a single fluid port which is located on the bottom. $20-50 range for this piece, maybe this champion one: https://www.championradiators.com/3x9_overflow_tank yet, I have to keep looking around though


- water pump: SBC oem style mechanical LONG water pump. in the $100 range for a polished or chrome one that has increased flow and clockwise rotation, Tuff-Stuff makes a bunch (which confuses me), milodon, ac delco also, etc. thoughts? I will be painting and REusing the belts/pulleys/etc from my OEM style 87 accessory drive setup. photos are above when I pulled the motor out a few weeks ago.
Choices:
1. ProForm $120
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-67264/overview/year/1987/make/chevrolet/model/camaro

2. TuffStuff (one of them) $143
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-1448nb/overview/year/1987/make/chevrolet/model/camaro
...note.. I don't know why so many TuffStuff pumps would work and I don't see their differences ?

3. Other? suggestions??


and lastly, radiator: I am pretty set on a 2 row "direct fit" style. I do like the polished and fabricated aluminum style over the oem "stamped" style. I know I will need to trim the rubber mounts a bit; not worried about that. Since I do NOT have $800 for a Dewitts, Griffin, or BeCool......I am very tempted by the 2 row "Chinese ones"

heres my choices:
1. Champion 2 core 3/4" rows $180
https://www.jegs.com/i/Champion-Cooling-Systems/166/EC951/10002/-1?ymm=4294829839+4294829791+4294829509


2. Cold Case 2 row 1" rows $360
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rad-lmp590a/overview/year/1987/make/chevrolet/model/camaro

3. Mishimoto 2 row unknown row width? $3.10
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mio-mmrad-cam-82/overview/year/1987/make/chevrolet/model/camaro


4. TPIS 2 core 1" rows $345
https://www.tpis.com/parts/view/262



I spoke to Nyes racing engines yesterday, and they are hopeful to have the engine complete or almost complete this week. If so, that would be great. I have almost run out of things to work on under the hood until I have the engine mounted and then comes the wiring process of everything and reassembly of the car.

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

While it's all apart and before the engine mount kit comes in, why not do the ceramic at least underhood yourself? It isn't rocket science, and with your attention to detail and patience should be fine and a lot cheaper. You may want to PM Kat on here, I know he's done a bunch.

[LTb1ow]

If the sniper is like the terminator stuff, you can make your I/O +,-, or -pwm

I would bump the fusible link size up, not sure what the factory fans draw but keeping it all #10 is probably a safe bet.

[IROCZman15]

Ok. Cool. Good to know about the sniper

I thought for fusible links you had to build them 4 wire gauge sizes smaller than the wire they are protecting? Basically If I have have 10 gauge power feed wire to the fan motors, to protect it I would have it connected to a 6” length of 14 gauge fusible link wire coming directly off the bus bar/power distribution block. I thought I read that’s how to do it ? I certainly could be wrong about this though

[BonzoHansen]

I don't get the love for evans, but have at it i guess. If you ever race somewhere that requires water you are SOL. I just run 50/50 with a bottle of purple ice.

I'm using a Stewart stage 2 water pump. 180* stat. I just use a basic high flow Robert Shaw style stat. I tried the Stewart one with bleed holes and my car would not heat up so i put a regular one in. Not sure if i got a bad one though.

Why not the 3 row Mishimoto? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mio-mmradcam82x/overview/

My car never gets hot.

I'd give each relay its own link so if one fails the other fan still runs.

Are there covers for all those exposed hot terminals?

[sweetbmxrider]

I’d go with fuses over the links. If they go, it’s a pain in the ass replacing.

[IROCZman15]

Yea. There is a red plastic cover for the bus bar but not one for the jump post, I’m not sure if I’ll leave it exposed, probably not, I’ll find a way to cover it and still look good

Regarding the 3 row radiators, people have said that the middle row doesn’t do “that” much, it just radiate heat to the outer two rows. Lots of the 3rd gen guys are doing great with the oem replacement small 2 row style and they make decent power.

I was absolutely going to run a complete and separate set of wires and relays for each fan. Each one will be independent Sorry if I mid-spoke earlier. Each fan will run its kwn set of wires from the bus bar and it’s own relay

As for the links, polar bear and I chatted about it and decided fusible links would be cleaner install than blade fuses But I think as I mentioned above I need to use 14 gage link wire with a 10 gauge power wire? Not 10 gauge fusible link with 10 gauge wire right?

As for the Evans, its a lot more expensive indeed so I’ve been on the fence about that. Lower psi in the cooling system, reduced boil over, and such were some
Of the good points. Price and in-store availability were the negatives. However. Evans is NHRA approved for use, so if I ever did a NHRA event, I would be ok. At autocross and events like optima Usca and UMI autocross they never checked it but I highly doubt they would , so regarding track events... I think Evans would be legal and safe ?

[BonzoHansen]

yes, link is lighter gauge than the circuit it protects. problem with fuses on fan circuits is the initial voltage spike on start up. fast blow fuses don't always like that.

[IROCZman15]

yes, link is lighter gauge than the circuit it protects. problem with fuses on fan circuits is the initial voltage spike on start up. fast blow fuses don't always like that.

Yes I think it sounds like you agree with me that a fusible link wire is better than a blade if you set up for the fans. Is that what I’m reading correctly. Basically PolarBear and I discussed that the fuse would have a potential to blow up on the initial start up of a fan motor since it’s a high amp draw at that first time it kicks on and then it levels out and lowers down the amperage. However a fusible link would not blow, like a blade fuse would ... so that’s why we were leaning towards using the fusible link to set up.

I know that from the factory there’s a single 20 amp fan fuse in the fuse block holder under the dash. This would mean that a 20 amp or 30 amp inline fuse probably be sufficient since I am Using the oem fans, but I’d rather use a fusible link setup. Scott is that what you are in agreement on? And Adam does this also make sense to you, or I mistaken in how I am describing this?

The other option I discussed with PolarBear was the small automatic resetting circuit breakers like the ones that are underneath the dash in the metal cases on the fuse block(like for power windows etc). however, Since I already have the 14 gauge fusible link wire and it would make for a clean set up that I could easily inspect almost every time I open the hood I was thinking I would just do two fusible links coming off of the bus bar going to the two relays which go to the two fans. Thoughts ?

[LTb1ow]

Disregard my comment, my mind was reading it as fused section of 14 not a fusible link of 14.

That being said, having a fuse to replace is much easier. My car is setup with relay per fan and each fan has its own fuse.

[BonzoHansen]

DAVE, what side of the circuit is that fan fuse on?

EDIT: the fuse under the dash is on the trigger side, the main power is protected by a link. That is what I would expect from GM.
(1987 Camaro 5.7L diagram)

[sweetbmxrider]

From 80s and early 90s automakers, sure. It’s 2020, I think fusible links are out of style :lol: Use whatever you do prefer to work with

[IROCZman15]

yes, Scott that is correct. the 20 amp fuse in the oem fuse box is on the trigger side of the relay. that wire joined in with all those ECM wires that came through the firewall on the passenger side, many wires. as part of my engine bay cleanup, that entire wiring harness on the passenger side is gone and permanently removed. The remaining OEM wiring coming through the firewall is just going to be from the C100 connector behind the brake booster. So, thats where i will have to find a wire that is hot-in-run to tap into for my switched ignition source at #86 on the relay. I was thinking of using the power wire (red?) that goes to the Unused windshield wiper's washer motor (I no longer have a tank for washer fluid or any need for it)


I confirmed that the Holley Sniper setup uses NEGATIVE ground triggers.. so it appears to be different than the other Holley software you are using Matt. The negative ground trigger (output) wires from the sniper are green and blue. one will go to #85 on each relay.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the OEM style dual fans for 3rd gens are NOT 2 speeds. they are just on/off right? not low/high/off ?
- If that is the case, I will have the sniper turn on one fan at lower temps than the second fan....and hopefully I never get hot enough to need Fan #2 to even come on at all!


I sketched out a diagram to help me make better sense of all this.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49461357276_5d589e07ba_c.jpg


this video here also helped me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKXhwZWTVK4
along with Scott and Polar Bear in text messages.

here are the old relays, and you can see why I didnt want to reuse them; deciding it was better to start fresh with new weatherproof relays, wiring, fusible links, and only reusing the fans, fan brackets, and short length of oem wire that will connect to the fans.
- it bothers me to see how poor condition that wiring was, and it was hidden from my normal view under hood. no more of that messy hidden stuff going forward
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49460877313_ee297458aa_c.jpg


so, let me know if my diagram/plan needs any corrections.
also, I will be making final decisions on cooling system components on Friday, so any other suggestions/advice is helpful.

[BonzoHansen]

From 80s and early 90s automakers, sure. It’s 2020, I think fusible links are out of style :lol: Use whatever you do prefer to work with

well, its an 87, so i was saying what i expected in that.... lol


OEs are also moving to PWM stuff. I run one too. A fuse works better in that situation since there is no initial hit. I think the maxi fuses used now might be better to take that initial hit, although I am not sure about that.

[LTb1ow]

well, its an 87, so i was saying what i expected in that.... lol
OEs are also moving to PWM stuff. I run one too. A fuse works better in that situation since there is no initial hit. I think the maxi fuses used now might be better to take that initial hit, although I am not sure about that.

Once I get my car running again, first project will be running a PWM fan controller. So much nicer than a 100% on , or 0% off.

But, to minimize that without having PWM, you can utilize the three relay setup 4th gens got. Lil more complicated but I believe it lessons the hard on/off cycling.

[BonzoHansen]

If i were using relays I'd do 3 as well.

My DCC controller has been great.

[PolarBear]

I suggested the series/parallel configuration with 3 relays, but he doesn't want the complication of the wiring

[IROCZman15]

I do understand thebenefit of the 3 relay method. I think I will try to run it the most basic way I can, and then if I have cooling/fan/load problems, I can add a relay and do the 3 relay setup. Still doing my best to learn wiring/electronics, so basic and simple is the realm I am trying to stay in. (for now)

ordering radiator, water pump, t stat housing, and evans tomorrow.

[IROCZman15]

Update:

got the power steering box back from www.powersteering.com where it got a full rebuild with various new parts. also was blasted and painted. it will certainly tighten up my steering even more, so thats good for autocross and street driving. cost $340 shipped.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49490107972_37e19a2f54_c.jpg

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worked on some wiring and covered a bunch of wires in new black split-loom. I know there are other options for wire-covering and fancier stuff; however I have not seen anything that I particularly like or want on my car. I do prefer the look and ease of using the oem style plastic split loom, so that's that.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49489504963_64e231f707_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49490213462_20a0c3c63f_c.jpg


I also spent a good amount of time cleaning most of the bolts, nuts, washers, and hardware on a wire wheel so that when I bolt everything up, the threads are clean.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49490108002_460410b262_c.jpg






pulled off the old power steering pump, water pump pulley, crank pulley, brackets, etc. cleaned them up with a wire wheel. Primer and painted. If I had the extra spending money I would get a bunch of new fancy billet pulleys and components; however I do not. I can always add them later on. I am pretty sure my OEM style alternator upper bracket won't work anymore. So I am either going to have to find a new bracket for it, or change over to a Mid-mount setup. I kinda think the mid mount setup would look better, because on the driver's side, the Power steering pump is mid-mounted. therefore mounting the alternator mid-mount on the passenger side would be more visually appealing? All I would need then is a mid-mount bracket setup, and then measure for a different belt? thoughts??

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49489396883_9cee71c0f4_c.jpg


this existing alternator:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49490108027_e3a897f5b7_c.jpg


I ordered a new water pump. The proForm one fit my budget and has the increased flow. it is "polished" and had good reviews.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49489986181_9cdcc70d7f_c.jpg




I went with a Champion 2 row (1" wide rows) polished aluminum radiator. Many people I have talked to with higher horsepower thirdgens are using this radiator with good success. The engine builder recommended a 160 degree thermostat, so I got a 160 stat from Meziere. PolarBear was a big help with getting me to order the proper 40 amp relays, sockets, and wire terminals.. for the two oem fans that will be controlled by the holley sniper.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49490195412_5c5c07a1bb_c.jpg


I have yet to order a coolant expansion tank/overflow tank, as I want to see how the radiator and my wiring sits before ordering a ill-fitting tank. Also, have not ordered a t-stat housing, since possibly mine can be reused? I will be buying new hoses to replace my old ones; however, I don't think lower coolant hoses come with the "spring" inside them anymore.. the metal coil that keeps the hose from collapsing on itself? I would like to use that I would think?











oh, yea,


...




and....






the engine is built, broken-in, dyno tested, and has been shipped to my house as of yesterday!!!


On the dyno it cranked out 531 horsepower and 513 foot pounds of torque N/A !!!




AWESOME

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49489986131_683ee48397_c.jpg








I need to order a few more things in the next few days, and I am sure a few more after that.

Upcoming order includes:

- fuel line heat shielding
- fuel line fittings to get my current -8 and -6 lines to mate up to the sniper
- a oil dipstick, specific one for Dart SHP block LOK-ED-5001 ??
- a nicer disptick for my 700R4 to match the oil dipstick
- oil valvoline VR1 15-40 I guess about 7-8 quarts, some for spare ?
- valve cover breathers exposed element or shielded with metal??
- air filter and air filter housing
- a different throttle cable? I have not done research on this yet..
- a different TV (kickdown) cable ? probably?
- replacement header gaskets for my dyno don's headers. the ones I currently have are Earls # 29DD3B. I don't see why these wont work on the Dart heads?


I am NOT doing anything to hookup the nitrous to this engine for a while. I'll need to get everything else sorted out and get myself comfortable with 531hp/513 tq before even thinking of sending a 200 shot at it.


I think I plan on using my current torque converter too for now. it is an Edge racing 9" converter with 2800 rpm stall. thoughts ? Once the build sheet for the engine gets here with the cam specs, I might call the converter company and see what they recommend I do.


so, thats where I am at currently. I have run out of tasks to work on until the engine actaully arrives, and once it is mounted in the car, I can work on running wiring, fuel lines, exhaust, transmission mounting, etc.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49490213457_4e3327120e_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49490213427_d2ba59d0fa_c.jpg

[LTb1ow]

I am not sure on the motor but if it huffs a little it may be wise to run a remote puke tank to keep your motor clean.

Also, first thought is a 2800 converter is going to be wayyyyy to small behind that motor. Def call them prior to installing :lol:

Car is looking great, def going to be a show car engine bay :nod:

[Joey D]

Looks great. Im down for engine install and efi hookup. Keep me posted.

[The_Bishop]

On the converter: It all depends on what it is. If it's a 'budget' 9" converter (Non-billet) I wouldn't install it. Will probably be too tight (as LTB1ow says) and if it's a non-billet one will probably balloon and take out your transmission. I wouldn't skimp on the converter if you're this far along; saving a couple of bucks here might cost you a lot more later on.

[sweetbmxrider]

And you have to decide if you want a good na converter or a good nitrous converter....

[IROCZman15]

Cool, thanks fellas. the converter is an Edge Racing converter that I bought in 2016 and was spec'd out by Dana at ProBuilt Automatics. He and Andre at Edge Racing Converters assembled it to be a 2800 rpm stall 9.5 diameter. It is called a street edge lock up converter. it is not billet, but it has anti-ballooning plates built in, because they knew I was using nitrous often. I wouldn't really call it a "budget" converter because it cost about $600, but I am no expert; hence why I ask many questions!

I called Andre the day before I took delivery of the engine and discussed this with him. He said he needed to look at the Cam specs in order to decide if my converter will work for this year of N/A no-nitrous use, or if it will be too tight. As of today, I have the cam specs (see my new thread, link below) and I tried to call him later in the afternoon but he was gone for the day. He did mention, that I could send in my current converter to have it reconfigured for about $250 (plus shipping each way) Or I could buy a brand new one. I will find out more when I chat with him, hopefully tomorrow.

so, I would still like to keep this particular thread going for a little longer, since I still have some more non-engine "vehicle" topics to ask about, discuss, and post photos of...
.. however I decided to make a whole separate thread regarding getting the actual engine installed and running. it can be found here: http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?p=954008#post954008

- sorry for dual threads, I figured since it might be better to keep these topics separated, hope that is ok.

one photo for here, but more can be found at the new thread, and even more can be found at this photo album link which i will add to as I take more photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iroczman15/albums/72157713006026381


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49499094273_9c5172e596_c.jpg


The gameplan is to install the engine on saturday, and then work on the plumbing, wiring, components. I am developing a LOT of questions in these areas, so feel free to read/help/yell at me at my other thread: http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?p=954008#post954008