What would you pay for a restoration??

[HardcoreZ28]

Ok here's the deal. Right now I work in good old Corporate America. I wear a shirt and tie to work everyday and watch co-workers pass my desk all day long looking like they have no reason to live. I want to eventually open a restoration and performance shop.

Out of curiousity, if money was not really an issue for you, what would most of you pay to have a car restored? We're talking mostly 60's and 70's musclecars. I also want to do performance and custom work to late models, but the majority of my business will be the resto work.

Just shoot out some prices.

[twiztidz28]

ok are we talking about a full restoration. just using the frame and body? are we using stock parts?

A full resto from the gorund up will take about 6-7 months at the most if worked on every day. you could probably do it shorter like 4 if you bust your ass. with help it would be even shorter. price for a full resto encluding paint. your looking at about 30-40 grand depending on the car availiabilty of parts and such. if custom parts have to be made then were talking a lil more. my dad use to do restos and i helped aand that is what most full restos from the ground up was. used as much of the stock body as we could and fixed what we had to.

[Untamed]

I've had the same desire and went so far as to put together a business plan, look up the licensing information in Trenton, do marketing research on used cars - specifically F-bodies, and put together financing information for investment capital using private and/or public groups. I also gathered information on what it would take to go beyond being an auto parts / mechanics / maintenance services dealer to actually sell used cars (like partial restorations that get used F-bodies up and running for those people on limited budgets).

Having said all that, you first need to determine who your market is. Currently, full restorations (frame-off, factory spec, very minimal performance or cosmetic changes) can run in the five figures - affordable only by car enthusiasts who are in their 40's, established careers, usually married, and can afford a $15K+ price tag. The cost of the base vehicle dramatically changes depending on the resto (a '69 Trans Am costs an arm and a leg, while an '81 TTA isn't nearly as bad).

You are better off not limiting your restoration work to just a limited type of car. People who do resto work on cars, don't just choose Second Generation vehicles only - unless its a part time job ( I know you said 1st and 2nd, just making a point). If its a full time job, consider doing all 4 generations of F-bodies. My original plan was to limit myself to the Firebird line (my favorite) but quickly saw that it wouldnt be worth a full time job. If you know little about either Camaro's or Firebird's, either learn more about the other, or hire a guy who knows and has the same passion. Why same passion? Because you wont make a dime the first few months you do work, and you (and your partner) have to be willing to forgo paychecks for a while to get the business off the ground. Friends and family who are willing to be the first customers, usually can't afford major work, much less full restos. Plus you need to do the accounting, materials handling, sales and marketing... ad naseum.

Here is my suggestion:

Age:

17-25: Under $2,000 with a payment plan for the youngest.
26-35: Under $5,000 with a payment plan.
36-45: Under $20,000 with a payment plan for those who need it.
46-???: They can usually afford whatever they want, though make your prices under $25,000 to be competitive with everyone else. If they are considering a restoration by you, and not doing it themselves, they won't need a payment plan.

Remember, its not just the price of the car and parts, its the labor AND ATTENTION TO DETAIL AND CREDIBILITY. People will pay big money for high value. If your restorations are show worthy, they'll pay for it. If you're helping a friend of a friend who is on his way to college, charge a simple fee for finding a running car, make it road worthy then paint it. Thats enough to make most of us happy, but wont get you the big bucks.

Oh, and don't get me started on the effects of the economy on that type of business....

- Dave, who has the tools, the manuals, the desire and a wife who supports the idea.... but not the space or the formal education. (yeah, shameless plug)

[HardcoreZ28]

I don't plan on limiting myself to a certain vintage car, I just think the demand for 60's and 70's cars will be higher. I do mean complete restorations from the ground up using stock parts when available. The $20 - $30k range is what I was thinking for a full resto plus the cost of parts. I can paint myself so that will save a lot of money for me. Only thing I can't do right now is weld but I plan on learning soon. I understand the whole age range and money issue, but there are plenty of people in this area that are 40 + and make 6 figures a year who would pay for a top quality restoration. I don't know yet if I want to take on a partner because I'm very picky when it comes to quality and how things should be done. But if I did it myself and even only cranked out 2 maybe 3 cars a year that's $45-$90k a year to start off.

I don't like to brag that much, but my work is excellent given the proper budget. My father and I restored his 76 Datsun together and it's one of the top in the country (wins 1st place in almost every import class he enters, Best of Show in all Nissan/Datsun shows, etc...). My IROC is very, very nice considering it was restored on a college student's budget and gets driven about 8,000 miles a year. And right now I'm restoring a 65 T-Bird with my father that is going to be ridiculous. Everything is being powdercoated, chromed, or painted....no rattle can stuff. The powdercoat and paint I do myself so I can decide if I like the way it comes out or not.

If anyone is seriously interested in getting into this business as well I'd be highly interested in sitting down for some serious discussion.

[Untamed]

If anyone is seriously interested in getting into this business as well I'd be highly interested in sitting down for some serious discussion.

Very interested actually. You're in Bridgewater and I'm in Hillsborough. That makes it easy, distance-wise, to get together. If nothing else we can make a dinner out of it, trade some ideas, lament over being stuck behind a desk, and talk about muscle cars until my wife tells me to shut up and eat before the food gets cold. *looks around* Am I the only one who does that?

I'll PM you my home number if you have any interest.

- Dave

[NJSPEEDER]

most good resto/custom shops charge 150-200 an hour + a 15-25% mark up on all parts.
your major investmenst are gonna be knowledgable man power and a ton of research tools like assembly manuals and data bases.


later
tim

[HardcoreZ28]

Untamed you've got a PM. I probably won't be online again until tomorrow night possibly, otherwise monday morning.

Tim what do you mean by data bases?

[HardcoreZ28]

I meant I won't be online again after I leave work in an hour

[Untamed]

most good resto/custom shops charge 150-200 an hour + a 15-25% mark up on all parts.
your major investmenst are gonna be knowledgable man power and a ton of research tools like assembly manuals and data bases.

That depends on how much effort someone is willing to put into the business on the front end. There's the cheap, easy, and self-made way of organizing a SQL or Access database to keep all the accounting, sales, inventory and billing information. There are lots of home business software out there (like Quickbooks) that can accomplish this. Not very expensive.

Getting ahold of the tech manuals can be tricky. I agree with you there. More and more manuals are being put on CD for around $40 per CD. Depending on what kind / how many cars the shop plans to work on, that can get pricey.

As for hourly wages, that depends on how much value the business owner (maybe sole proprietor) places on the labor. Just marking up parts gets a small profit through the door. Charging -something- for labor is where the money is at. New businesses would do well to value their personal labor low, covering costs or making a small profit on parts to begin with, then work off the building reputation to charge a little more within 1 quarter of opening (3 months). It becomes a sort of grand opening special. Once theres a solid reputation, stick with whatever the market charges to remain competitive, and enjoy more profitability.

Now, I'm no expert. These are just my opinions. These posts are more of an attempt to get a thousand-count of posts on this forum to look cool or something. ;-)

[HardcoreZ28]

Untamed....I like the wayyou think. Reputation is EVERYTHING in a business like this. As far as databases that's no problem. I learned Access and Excel in High School and College and use Excel everyday at work. Computers are fairly easy for me. As far as tech manuals I'm not so knowledged on them. Everything I've done so far has been with a complete car as a starting point. I've found that my digital camera and video camera have been some of my most useful tools. The nice thing about old cars is the simplicity and lack of clutter under the hood. Manuals would be great though for wiring and under dash components. Once again though at only 2-3 cars a year (for a one man business) $40 a pop on manuals is a minor expense. Also the research of checking other cars of the same model at car shows in invaluable. You can see where other people's weak points and strong points are and use them to your advantage.

[NJSPEEDER]

i was refering to databases outside the business function stuff.
you woudl need to have around a tone of assembly, parts, cross reference, specifications, color chips, blah blah blah....you get teh idea.
at minimum you woudl need access to a stagering amount of info, if not have a good portion of it on hand at all times. some of these things are very easy to get, the old mopar guys have part numbers and records for everything, the model a and t ford crowd has been researched to death, and teh pontiac historical society has a ton of useful info available. the trick is when you get into the less common vehicles(copo/special production) and have to find info on how to repair or reproduce a part that may have been a one off or only ever appeared as a prototype.
having someone on the staff that is very good at and like to do research woudl be a huge asset. the records of the research done on every individual car(if a resto to verify num's matching and stuff) as well as general info would need to be carefully documenteed and organized.
if you get a chance to visit any good resto shop you will see books all over the place becuase accurate information is the key to perfect restos.

later
tim

ps quickbooks is prolly the easiest acounting/time/product management program in history. highly recomend it if you woudl rather spend your time playing with the cars instead of the books :)

[Untamed]

i was refering to databases outside the business function stuff.
you woudl need to have around a tone of assembly, parts, cross reference, specifications, color chips, blah blah blah....you get teh idea.
at minimum you woudl need access to a stagering amount of info, if not have a good portion of it on hand at all times. some of these things are very easy to get,

Ah yes, absolutely correct. There's no real happy medium between being able to cater to a wide audience and having a small operation. Unfortnately, the shops that seem to have the best reputation, also have the experienced mechanics who seem to have all the obscure knowledge in their heads - not on manuals. Like they say, there's no substitute for experience.

It's a lofty goal for a small operation to be able to tackle a large range of cars for resto work. Those who specialize, can often maintain a great wealth of information about specific vehicles, building a great reputation for those vehicles, however they cater to a much smaller audience, and consequently, make a smaller amount of money. If all he plans to do is 2-3 cars a year (definately a part time job) then taking time to do the research and acquire the (written) knowledge about the vehicle becomes a little more attainable. I agree with you there. Pouring through webpages, catalogs, shop manuals, yellow pages, and purusing car shops/shows, swap meets, other clubs, etc. becomes very important and time consuming. Certanly lots of things to consider when opening a "small and simple" restoration business.

Thanks for the input, Tim.

[jims69camaro]

i dunno what happened to my post, but i was the first to respond - and it disappeared.

basically, you have the right idea as far as pricing - the only thing i would keep in mind is not to exceed the market value of the cars too much. yeah, i know, true enthusiasts are not in it for the money. yet there is still something to be said for being able to sell the car for more than you paid for it.

i am good with wrenches, lots of experience changing parts, swapping motors, stuff like that. what i lack in actual experience building up a ride, i supplement with my thirst for knowledge. i am constantly reading.

i could be interested in a contingency position - basically i could come in as needed. until the court case settles i won't know how much i'll have to 'fool around with' so i cannot at this time commit to a partnership, but i would be interested in turning wrenches for you and maybe more down the road. and i think reputation is everything - and it all starts with a little friendly customer service.

i have been developing a relationship with bob emerson at speed freaks speed shop out in amelia oh, and if you were interested in stocking a small parts counter, he could hook that up. he blows away the other big names in the internet/mail order parts business as far as price is concerned (ex: Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, $117 plus shipping $8; jeg's $128 plus what amounts to a shipping charge of $12 (they don't call it shipping, lol); summit $125 plus shipping ($10-15)), and his shipping is reliable (UPS). while he's mostly a performance parts house, i am sure he could get good prices on restoration stuff. sometimes it's who you know. oh, and the web site, which he quickly admits does not even come close to showing all of the parts he's either got in stock or has access to (probably drop-ship situation), is at http://www.speedfreaksspeedshop.com/index.html

you don't need any fancy software to set up the books, keep track of inventory, and the like - i can do it with Excel.

oh, and, it might be nice to have a '69 camaro sitting in front of the shop. :D

[Ian]

If anyone is seriously interested in getting into this business as well I'd be highly interested in sitting down for some serious discussion.

Very interested actually. You're in Bridgewater and I'm in Hillsborough. That makes it easy, distance-wise, to get together.

I am in hillsborough too. I would definitly be down for starting a resto shop. I graduate in two weeks from wyotech after taking automotive technology, chassis fabrication and high performance engines, and street rod and custom fabrication. If it has to do with cars, I can do it. Let me know if you guys are serious about this and want my help.

[Ian]

TTT, this is too cool to let go.

[jims69camaro]

TTT, this is too cool to let go.

Untamed you've got a PM. I probably won't be online again until tomorrow night possibly, otherwise monday morning.

patience.

[Ian]

Just to let you all know, I am very good at welding. I can MIG, TIG and gas weld. I also learned to fabricate sheet metal panels and full chassis. I am very interested in this, keep me in the know please.

[JL8Jeff]

Guys, it really depends on what the customer is looking for. A true frame off restoration will run $50-100,000 easily. I used to be skeptical when people told me that, but right now I'm in the middle of having my 69 Z28 JL8 car restored and I can tell you the cost will be in the $70-100,000 range when it's finished. You can't cut corners and you have to take as much time as it takes to get it right. Original parts are priced outrageous and soon will be used up anyway. If you're really serious, talk to Rich at PRC in Bridgewater where my car is being restored(732)356-7765. His shop charges $40 an hour, but they're meticulous and my car has already had over 500 hours in work and it's not even painted yet. But my car is going to be a $125,000 when it's done so I could justify the cost of the restoration. If the car being restored is only going to be worth $30,000 when finished, nobody is going to pay $50,000 to have it restored. Take a look at the cars at Englishtown swap meet and just look at the sub-frame and you'll be able to tell which cars were really frame off restored and which ones were quicky "restored". I would suggest coming up with different levels of restoration to offer. But even then, most people don't have all the money up front so you'll need to do some sort of monthly plan like I do. Take a look at some of the pictures on this page http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/jeffhansbury@comcast.net/JL8/ and you'll see some of the work done to my 69 Z28. The body was chemically stripped at Redi-Strip in Allentown, PA. That alone cost $1700. GM quarter panels cost $1800 a pair. It add up really fast.

[HardcoreZ28]

OK I'm back from a long weekend of rugby drunkeness in Conn. It's awesome that some of you guys are really interested in this post. Ian I would definately love to talk to you tomorrow night if you'll be at Fudd's...I'll have the white IROC.

I've seen the shop in Bridgewater I believe. It's the one that's actually in back of like Bridgewater Garage or something like that right? I talked to that guy about a year ago and he had a lot of cool things to say.

As far as pricing and different levels of restoration those are things I've kicked around. Like I said for a full resto I'd be looking at $20-$30k for labor plus the cost of parts, but it would absolutely be a top notch job. This is something I'd like to start part time next year maybe even out of my garage at home and then after I get a few cars under my belt or a few firm commitments move to full time status.

[Ian]

Ian I would definately love to talk to you tomorrow night if you'll be at Fudd's...I'll have the white IROC.

Sorry, I won't be there. I'm still at school. But I'll be at the meeting the 25th.

[JL8Jeff]

$20-30K plus the cost of the parts will put the restoration in the $40-50K range and then add to that the original cost of the car. Most of the 60's musclecars are probably worth $20-40K so you can't go over the market value. If you really want to start your own business, pick a rare model and do a top notch job on it and use that as your selling point.

[HardcoreZ28]

I'd say that $40-$50k is about the going price for a professional resto job of top quality. We all know that people never get back what they put into a car......their loss is my gain I guess.

[jims69camaro]

ok, so where are we with this?

[HardcoreZ28]

Ha we're at me still having about a year left to finish restoring my father's T-bird and then using it along with his Datsun and my Camaro as advertising tools. Then hopefully me escaping from the clutches of Corporate America into a job I might actually enjoy and be passionate about.

[Untamed]

You'll need at least 6-9 months to launch the business - assuming you don't cut corners like work out of your own house, provide your own financing to start up, and have employees willing to work for future pay-offs, eliminating the need for an actual payroll from week 1.

So.. having said all that, and echoing Jim's words, where are we with this?

- Dave

[HardcoreZ28]

As I said I am literally waiting to finish up this T-bird. I have to keep my current job for a while because I have money to pay back to my parents and then to save up some starting capital. As far as employees willing to hold off for a future payoff, that's not a big concern. I really think at first I am going to go solo. It will take me longer to do a car, but atleast it'll be done to my standards. Eventually I would like to pick up a good bodyman and maybe some part timers to do things like strip parts and such. As soon as the bird is done I'm going to take that and my father's Datsun to a lot of shows and put signs in the window advertising.


On a side note as some encouragement.....get your hands on last fridays Wall Street Journal...there was an article in there on investing in classic cars....quite inspirational.

[jims69camaro]

yeah, those guys at WSJ are on the cutting edge...

it all depends on how much you hate your job and how much you really can afford to seperate yourself from the weekly paycheck. my situation may be unique in that i've already done that. i'm waiting on some things to happen in order to decide where i'm going to spend the rest of my life, but that doesn't preclude an investment opportunity, should one surface.

i've always been into the muscle car scene, since before i could drive. my dad would take me out to the shows and i'd daydream for 8 hours or so until it was time to head back home. how awesome would it be to get paid for doing something you've always loved?

[HardcoreZ28]

Oh don't worry it'll happen. I just know I need to pay off my debt first then I'll start my advertising. If I can get even one person to commit for like $25k plus parts then I'll probably leave my job and go full speed into the resto business. Although it would be a decent cut in pay, I'd love it a lot more and would find a way to get by for the first year or two.

We'll see what happens come spring.

[Untamed]

Heh, hope you aren't married. Nothing worse than listening to your wife complain about being unable to buy new shoes. Er... maybe that's just me.

When you're ready to call a meeting of the minds to discuss how to make it happen, give out a shout. Maybe we can set some time aside next month at Fudd's to discuss it. I missed the last one, but should be able to make the next one.

- Dave, who has a small mountain of paperwork that would begin a resto / used car business.

[jims69camaro]

Heh, hope you aren't married. Nothing worse than listening to your wife complain about being unable to buy new shoes. Er... maybe that's just me.

When you're ready to call a meeting of the minds to discuss how to make it happen, give out a shout. Maybe we can set some time aside next month at Fudd's to discuss it. I missed the last one, but should be able to make the next one.

- Dave, who has a small mountain of paperwork that would begin a resto / used car business.

i agree. although buying your wife a new car can quell the itches for new shoes... ;) i figure i'm good for another year or so until she starts up again. a new car == 2 years of wedded bliss. we've been at it for 7 now, so i figure i've got a pretty good record. :D

yeah, i wouldn't mind being involved in that discussion. i'd make a trip out to fudd's for that.

[HardcoreZ28]

We can definately talk about it at Fudd's the next time we meet up. I am definately interested in talking about this as much as possible.

As far as the wife issue, I don't have to worry about that one. I'm too young and luckily my girlfriend has 2 years of college left and even then I doubt she'll be ready to talk about marriage if we're still together......but she's the best and already promised to support me if I go ahead with this.

[HardcoreZ28]

In fact I'm game for meeting up somewhere another night if it's good for those interested. For the next month tuesday's and thursday's are no good for me due to rugby, but any other night during the week is, including friday.

Let me know if you guys want to do something sooner.

[Untamed]

Unfortunately I'll have to wait for the Fudd's meeting. My wife does her Mom's Club dinners once a month, so the Fudd's thing will become my chance to get out (have 3 kids). Isn't that terrible? Gotta find her something to do so she owes me. *facepalm*

Jim - Seven years huh? I'm through my ninth. The new car thing doesn't work anymore because she sees cars like vacuums - a necessary evil. Shoes, clothing, vacations... those are special, and in some cases, more expensive.

Anyway, looking forward to October. I'll bring the abbreviated versoin of paperwork for people to puruse to see what it might take (as of Feb 2004) to launch a new business in NJ and get the licensing to sell used cars (if that becomes part of the business).

- Dave

[jims69camaro]

Jim - Seven years huh? I'm through my ninth. The new car thing doesn't work anymore because she sees cars like vacuums - a necessary evil. Shoes, clothing, vacations... those are special, and in some cases, more expensive.

yep. i know about those other things, as well. the vacation thing was going to be once a year, but waiting on social security and twidling my thumbs until then...

Anyway, looking forward to October. I'll bring the abbreviated versoin of paperwork for people to puruse to see what it might take (as of Feb 2004) to launch a new business in NJ and get the licensing to sell used cars (if that becomes part of the business).

- Dave

yeah, i guess selling used cars is going to be part of it, as it becomes part of any mechanic shop. if the parts car has a vin, i would imagine that qualifies...

[HardcoreZ28]

I would definately like to see as much info as possible on starting the biz. I don't plan on selling used cars, but who knows. What form of business did you look into starting? LLC or something else? I was looking to start an LLC last year but it fell through for reasons out of my control.

[HardcoreZ28]

Well guys, the newspapers are taunting me again. After the article in the WSJ last week, today there was one in the Courier News. I didn't get a chance to read it yet but my father pulled it out for me. Being in debt sucks! If it wasn't for the $10k I still owe my folks I'd be out advertising my work.

By the way anyone have any ties to the owner at Thul's machine shop? I'm preparing to go see them about the hack machine work they did on my old engine and I am willing to sue if needed. Their negligence cost me over $4k and the guy who did the work says I'm SOL because it was almost 4 years ago and I assembled the engine myself. I feel I still have a valid case though because things like improper line bore tolerances and improper rotating assembly balance don't change over time.

[Untamed]

I would definately like to see as much info as possible on starting the biz. I don't plan on selling used cars, but who knows. What form of business did you look into starting? LLC or something else? I was looking to start an LLC last year but it fell through for reasons out of my control.

Nah, my plan was to go for a full S Corporation (Incorporated) to protect my personal assets should someone decide to sue me. (look to your own experiences, ironically enough)

As for the used car idea, it doesnt have to be used for a pure restoration business. I had high hopes of re-selling cars that were at least made usable, for those people who had limited budgets but enough skills to take the car the next step.

[jims69camaro]

i tripped across this site (http://www.musclecarsunlimited.com/) this morning. interesting.

[Untamed]

Jim, good example of a "backyard" business. There's a lot of merit in being less choosey about the type / make of cars that you restore, giving you the opportunity to bid on more restoration jobs. Plus working at home reduces the cost of operation (but increases the risk of financial exposure later).

However, my personal opinion leans towards specializing. Less opportunities to work with, but a far better chance of building that all-important reputation. Look at www.texastransams.com , Dave Mars built it from the ground up with his father. While he doesnt get many resto's a year (maybe two orders, taking 12-18 months for a full frame-off) his quality is suposedly the best, and people around the country seek him out.

There's a trade-off that needs to be discussed - bid on all muscle car resto opportunities to get more deals per year, or specialize and build a reputation as an expert in your limited space? Tough choice.

- Dave, no F-body, no P-body, and a minivan parked on the driveway. I'm so whipped!

[HardcoreZ28]

I'd love to specialize in Chevy in general, but my love for most if not all classic American musclecars would insure that I do just as good of a job on them all.

I know it's not show winning or anything, but I took 3rd place at E-Town yesterday in the 70-89 F-Body class. This was a stock class that I lost a lot of points for since I have many non-stock performance parts. The first place car was great and there's no way I could have matched it on my college student budget that I had when doing my car. The second place car probably only beat me due to it's completely stock buildup. Just more inspiration for me.

[Untamed]

Here's a taste of irony: Had chinese for lunch today. Fortune cookie fortune - The secret of getting ahead is getting started.

There ya go.

[HardcoreZ28]

Hahahahah....ironic indeed. So when is that next meeting at Fudd's that you wanted to sit down and talk a little at?

[Untamed]

If it's every second Tuesday, then Oct 12th would be it. As far as I know, I'll be there. I still dont own an F body, so I'll just oggle everyone elses like some young newbie.

Maybe i should join the growing ranks of the P-bodies. Plenty of Fiero husks lying around....

[jims69camaro]

i'll plan on being there 10/12, then. you can ogle my car. ;)