GM beats Toyota here and abroad now.
Moving south will do nothing for GM. It will destroy a city on the brink. GM has plants all over the US, Canada, and Mexico. Operating costs are gunna be the same no matter where they go. The cost to move the world hq of the worlds biggest automaker would be immense when they just moved into Renn Center, a very beautiful set of buildings.
Getting rid of thier divisions gets rid of years and years of brand management and recognition, and now have to restart all over again.
GM has cars right now that dont run on gas.
GM actually have better sucess as a foriegn brand then as a domestic brand. Yes...GM is admired every where else....but here.

Its because everyone thinks Honda's and Nissan's are so fantastic....thats why. OOOO 35 MPG lets throw a party. People don't realize that theres domestics that can get the same milage. Than when their starter breaks its $450 to fix. On a domesitic its like a $150-200 job. Parts on Jap cars are like double and triple the price of any domestic. People don't know anything thats why they buy the Jap ****, they hear it on TV and so they buy them. Their like sheep, they'll follow their blind leader off a cliff and not know the wiser.

At one time in this country, the unions were necessary to protect workers from big industry and provide saftey regs etc..etc..

Now they are eating themselves alive. The UAW is a prime example of this. Sorry to say, but a person on an assembly line installing seats (just an example) should not and can not expect to make more than $15-18 an hour or 30-36K a year. You can't bitch about the price of new cars and then also demand inflated wages, fully paid benefits and grand retirement packages. Those days are long gone.

Let GM buyout the current workforce clean house and reload with lower priced labor. At the same time they would be wise to retool their entire compensation structure, pay scales, benefits packages, etc..

I'm not saying sweat shop type pay scales, but the reality is that you can't pay someone 40 50 60k a year to work an assembly line job. The economics don't work in the long term.

At least the work would stay on our soil and direclty feed our economy both on the local level and on the national level.

Kids today need to be damn sure they have a willingness to work, a real degree and/or a real skill set up which they can build a career for the long term.

my 38 cents on the topic....your opinions may and probably will vary.

UNIONS, Thats why five watch while one works motto...... Unions are getting old in this country for that reason. But the ones that can keep it together, are the ones worth fighting for.

wat

i dont think people really understand what unions do for the workforce, INCLUDING non-union shops. if it wasnt for the unions on the outside looking in, making sure the non-union shops are at least somewhere on the up and up, the non-union workers wouldnt be making what they are (comparatively) and not have the benefits they do. now i am not a stick waving live-or-die union bigwig, but i just spent FIVE ****ING YEARS of my life going through an apprenticeship, five LONG, SHYTTY YEARS, and ill be god****ing damned if im going to let some asshat bash what i just spent half a decade getting into.

And that's good, but I assume you didn't spend those 5 SHYTTY years to learn how to work on an assembly line either. My guess is you are either a boilermaker/electrician/carpenter/pipefitter/steel worker/operating engineer etc. etc. etc.....and if you excell at what you do, and you bust your ass everyday you deserve all the good that comes your way.

But do you think a person on an assembly line with a very limited skill set making widgets or stamping fenders or bolting in seats or whatever, deserves the same payscale as you? Why do union electricians make more than union laborers? The SKILLSET.....

I guess that's my real bitch with the UAW and any other union that is bleeding companies dry. Certain jobs are only ever gonna net you so much income. You don't like it, get a better SKILLSET and get a better job. Then put in an honest 40hr (at least) week.

How many times have you seen a Verizon truck sitting in the corner of some parking lot and the guy is reading the paper for 3 ****ing hours? Or the PSE&G guy doing the same? Who do you think is paying for all that non-productive time? Would that behavior be tolerated on your job site? Or would you be told to pack your **** and go home?

When I had Verizon Fios installed the guy had 1 Ticket for the entire day, mine. So I asked what do you do now (install took 2.5 hours), call in for more? He laughed.

Know this. I maybe be a son of bitch, but I ain't no @ss hat.

Chris

Yup, exact same thing when I had it installed at my parent's house. 2 guys, showed up at 9:45 am (after they ate breakfast on company time), they spent 3.5 hours installing everything (we were chatting the whole time) and then they said they were off to get a late, long lunch, and then be done for the day.

- Justin

and just what kind of SKILLSET do you think youre going to get out of someone whos making $10/hr?? if you think the build quality of cars today are low, (which i dont) just imagine what they would be like if some jerkoff was making them for a whole $10/hr, barely making $300 a week. do you think he'd care if every single nut and bolt was torqued properly? do you think he'd care to see that threadlock was applied in the right spots? or that interior parts fit correctly, motors assembled within tolerance, wires connected right, etc etc?? the yugo was made by non-union labor. dont forget that. for someone making that little money, hes not going to give a **** if he does his job right. and if he gets fired.....so what, it was only a $10 job. theyll hire the next guy, who will be just as big of a bag of **** as the last one. do you really think that ONLY unions have people standing around all day? what do you do for a living? ive had plenty of jobs.....all non union......where half the time we stood around, waiting for this, or hiding from that, etc. talk to paul, smokingSS. he told us at the meet that he MIGHT do one hour of 'work' throughout his entire day.......in the ARMY. thats where YOUR TAX DOLLARS are going. you want to beat a drum, go show up there and tell them to find a broom and keep busy.

just because maybe you saw some people slacking off or taking advantage of free time doesnt mean EVERY union does it. many, many union men take pride in thier work, including me and alot of guys i work with. i have personally seen, first hand, the differance in quality of work between scab and union. ive had to go and FIX the things scabs have screwed up before. theyre not trained. they dont go through any kind of schooling or apprenticeship program. theyre not going to care if they lose their job, because anyone can get a $10/hr job. you think that goes the same for someone making UAW wages? he making money, benefits, retirement, plans for the future. he WILL do a good job because he doesnt want to lose the job he has.

you want lower priced labor. you want mexicans from under the fence? some punk kind fresh out of highschool who just barely works to have money for getting drunk or stoned? one of the first things hitler and stalin did once in power was to dissolve unions. is that the kind of thinking youre coming from? no matter what job you have now, there is NOTHING keeping your boss or employer from firing your ass and bringing in a mexican for $5/hr, give him a training video to watch, and send him off. i tell the same to my friend who works for seimens. no matter what training, degrees, experience he has, there is nothing guaranteeing his job from going to someone who will work for less. he has no say, no voice in the work force. the same goes for a guy i went to college with. hes now a surveyor. there are union and non union surveyors. he was recently liscened. so, he wanted more money, and threatened to quit if he didnt get it. his boss gave it to him.......you know why? because if he didnt, he could walk right out the door and join the surveyors union and make the same money with better conditions. if there was no surveyors union, looking in from the outside, his boss would have told him to go screw, and he'd find somone else willing to work for less money.

Dude, who said ANYTHING about paying $10/hr and bringing in Mexicans??

So you think an assembly line working should be making $50-60K a year? PLEASE. Not that my job is all high and mighty but an assembly line worker?????????????

It's working fine for Toyota and from what I've read the work force is happy there.

I'm sure GM is going to take any Tom Dick and Harry off the street that has NO experience :rolleyes:

Anyone who has a shred of pride and self respect will do a good job irregardless of their pay, if not, they don't deserve the job they have and should find work elsewhere. Is that idealistic, maybe? But fat paychecks are no guarantee to a job well done or to happiness. Do you agree that any given job has an upper limit as to what the job can and should pay? There are slackers in every walk of life, union and private sector, no doubt. I am sure that within your hall there are guys who are seen as top dogs because they bust ass and do good work and make it happen everyday. I am also sure that there are guys in your hall that don't quite live up to that standard and they suffer for it.

NOPE. That is not my line of thinking at all. Hitler? Stalin? That's far too slippery a slope to go near. What I am saying is that when a person or group (union or otherwise for that matter) reaches the upper pay limit for what the job can reasonably pay, they need to accept that fact and either be content or upgrade their SKILLSET so they can be more valuable to the company they work for and with that will come greater rewards. But for that same person or group to demand greater pay to point that it cripples the company's ability to be competative in the market place? That is wrong, that is counterproductive. That is what I believe the UAW has done to its own.

It's funny that you use this example. I am a land surveyor/cadd operator. Could my boss fire me, sure. Could he replace me and my SKILLSET for significantly less that what he is paying me now, NOPE. If he did terminate my employment, I'd have interviews within a week and be GAINFULLY employed within a month. Why? My SKILLSET, my work ethic, my ability. I show up and work my ass off everyday and get the job done, go the extra when necessary without being told. That's my job. And your buddy who just got his license could do the very same thing, either in the private sector or with the union. Why? His SKILLSET, and yes his boss knows this. Is it the union that gives your buddy this leverage? NO. That would be an insult to your friend. Its his SKILLSET that gives him the leverage. The union is one of the places he could go and be gainfully employed, but it is not the only game in town. There are plenty of firms in the private sector that would bid for his services. He is even better positioned than me because he has his license (I am still working towards mine). In a few years he will be able to name his price if he can't already. Not just anyone can show up and be land surveyor and ever fewer can show up and sign the plan. Just the same that anyone can't walk onto a job site and be a carpenter or a pipe fitter or a boilermaker.

Its the SKILLSET that set's all these people apart. I am a firm believer that if you have a strong SKILLSET and a strong work ethic, you will always be gainfully employed, union or otherwise. I think you would agree with that?

See you at the Meadowlands on the the 9th

Chris

just another sad example of how greedy this country is and how the rich get richer and the middle class stays the same

Unfortunately most of the middle class is so focsed on etting by that they never plan how to get ahead. It's really sad.

jesus ****ing christ theres no getting through to some people. not only are unions more skilled, but we are SAFER then scabs. we have conditions and safey issues that we are taught. once again, a scab outfit could order you to work around asbestos. if not....youre fired, and he'll find someone else that will. think that happens in unions? no.

you are completely ignorant to what it means to be in a union. you dont know what its like to be part of something thats bigger then the individual worker. you dont know what its like to have a brotherhood, to have support, backing, and a common voice, and you never will. i am ****ing DONE with this arguement and with you. there is nothing you will ever say that can change my mind or my views. fire back all you want, itll fall on deaf ears. this is the last time i open this thread.

Does that mean all the workers in BMW's plant in SC are less safe then ones in one of GM's plants? I'd have to disagree on that. OSHA didn't exist 'back in the day', but they do now. As do insurance companies that underwrite workers comp and liability insurance. Back in the day the union acted as a lone force of change, but now there are other forces at work too. And like Chris pointed out, we are specifically talking about assembly line workers.

There is a similar thread at every car forum right now. And it is all the same…’how can GM do this', yadda yadda yaddda. GM has no choice but to do this, and if you think otherwise you are terribly naive. GM can't 'fight the good fight' if it means loosing tons of money. Everything I have read says all this should result in reversing the negative cash flow generated by the North American business. What is the alternative, stay the course? If they do they will inevitably file for bankruptcy and then dump all the retiree benefits on the US tax payer, who will in turn give those retirees $0.10 on the $1 for their pensions. Welcome to the PBGC – an almost bankrupt version of the FDIC for pensions.

How about this - instead of hammering GM, why not go hammer the non-UAW factories out there? Or get in your elected officials faces? How the hell is GM supposed to compete with Toyota & Honda if the playing field is so uneven? Our government sure has no interest in helping the big 2.5 (I’ve downgraded Chrysler in my head to less then 1). And if you say ‘make better cars’, ugh, go look at the numbers. Adding $1500+ per car in legacy costs per car (a number that grows daily) sure puts them in a big starting hole. It is no coincidence that the new GM cars are much nicer and R&D is really starting to shine now that they did a lot of cost restructuring. But they need more. The market is changing, the global market is bigger then the US market. GM is trying to position themselves worldwide. And as Al has pointed out, they are leaders in many other markets, such as China.

I’m not a GM sycophant, and the General does not need my defense, but I know what I see & read.