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Quote:

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon (Post 601784)

they were trying to market their cars to the people that would buy a bmw....thats the whole reason behind the g3 g5 g6 g8 idea.

gm's late motto and stigma as of lately

If you mean that them going with an Alpha Numerics means that they want to market thier cars after people taht want to buy BMW, you are wrong...again. Im detecting a pattern.
The use of alphanumerics is a way to taking the image of the individual car, and shifting the image to the brand.
You dont own a 535, you own a BMW
You dont own a C300, you owne a Benz
You dont own a A4, you have an Audi.

GM's motto as of late? Cant say I agree with you. But then again Im a GM fan boi, and you are a GM hater...so yeah, this is going no where

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubba428 (Post 601792)

its gonna sell great the first 3 months...and then it'll fall off and flop...just like the GTO. Don't get me wrong al I love the car, I just see no real future for it

Um...wtf are you talking about?
GTO sold liek **** for the first three months. In fact, untill rebates and actuall enthusiats started getting behind the car, the car sold like crap.
with 05 and 06, the additional power made more and more people come to the realization that the GTO actually is a real performance car, and something that is more then just a straight line drag car.
Camaro presold 14k units
Camaro sold, in a month, 6k units. Thats nearly half of the orders from October to March, sold in 30 days, with a plant ramping up, on top of making cars for pre-sales.
Not bad at all.
Better indication of sales would be the Challenger or Mustang.
Unlike the GTO, the Camaro has both the performance and retro design that all the kids crave.
Unlike the GTO, the Camaro has a lower cost V6 option
Unlike the GTO, the Camaro has a vast and growing option list
Unlike the GTO, it can actually be made in vast quanities, and locally.

GM taking the GTO racing, and not drag racing, was a great idea.
And the GTO went "drag racing" anyway...if you call a fiberglass shell over a tube frame a GTO.

There isn't anything wrong with wanting a car to appeal beyond the enthusiast market. But when you specifically set out to disregard and ignore that segment, the ones that carry a passion for the name, it's going to backfire. You have to remember, the majority of people who knew what a GTO was before 2004 were 40+. The YAMs (young affluent males) that GM said they were targeting with the GTO most likely never heard of or knew what a GTO was. Yet what were they into buying? BMWs, Benzs, etc. All they knew it was a Pontiac, and no way were they going to consider a Pontiac over a BMW. Sales should have been driven by enthusiasts first and then focused on a larger market.

It's clear GM learned from their mistakes with the Camaro. What they are doing with that car they should have done with the GTO: give it retro cues from the past and gobbs of performance, let it work the show circuit for a couple years and build press and gauge public interest, then bring it to market.

If GM could have done it again, Im sure they would have if they had planned on actually making a GTO for American consuption.
But Lutz came into GM around late 2001 and took hold of his Vice Chairman reigns around late 2002.
In that time he got his hands on everything and anything made by GM Global. You could have done a million things to Pontiac to make it better.
I dont think that RWD is the answer, but I think a sportier feel and a move higher in market position.
There is really a million things that went wrong with Pontiac, but somehow still remained one of the best selling brands in America.
When Pontiac started to make different and better cars, shedding the cladding, including RWD cars in the line up, and more then just one, adding turbocharging and massive displacmenet engines...sales dropped like a rock.
You could blame it on the Alphanumerical names, you could blame it on the lack of Firebird/Trans Am, or you could blame it on Lynn Myers...
People will debate this for years.

i kind of agree... with the camaro floping after the first year... only because of the added stress the govt is putting of these car companies (especially the ones they control) to make more fuel efficient and less emissions vehicles.. i think along with larger trucks and and suvs and other sports cars like it will cease to exist in the comming years.... aside from enthusiasts and GM lovers... (which i am, at least pre-bailout GM) the camaro will not sell to average people due to lack of excitement about a company that is in the gutter... correctly if im wrong but thats just the trend that i see comming...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28 (Post 601800)

:rofl: i'm just going to keep tossing have assed comparisons out there just to watch you wear out you keyboard

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28 (Post 601883)

You could blame it on the Alphanumerical names, you could blame it on the lack of Firebird/Trans Am, or you could blame it on Lynn Myers...
People will debate this for years.

I think it's a culmination of many people who just didn't get it once Delorean left. Pontiac was slowly being destroyed for the last 40 years. There's just so many things that could have been done different, they're just too long to get into. And like you said, it's going to be debated now until forever.

Depends on how you how you define "destroyed".
Pontiac's sales peaked when it was full of FWD sedans, Azteks and Trans Sports.
There are probably at least 4 different ways you could have done things.
There are some cars that were great ideas. like the 6000STE AWD, Aztek, G6, but executed like dog ****.
Pontiac had the ability to become an Acura or even Infinity type brand had they kept to the formula.

the 6k awd was a tank and could barely get itself out of its own way. the aztek was a turd that in your own words ''if it wasnt for the design and chassis the vehicle wouldve been great'' :rofl::rofl::rofl: and the g6 was the closest thing we'll ever get to having another chevy beretta....which is actually a winning combination.

pontiac shouldve stayed with their current ''formula.'' haha love the puns.
they always offered some type of daily drivers that followed the good better best category then some performance on top of everything.

89 was the last great model year for PONTIAC as a whole. their lineup was awesome.

grand am, grand prix and trans am. all decent cars. all have fun daily driving base models....but the difference was...they had an ultra high performance model for each.

88/89 turbo grand am
89 mclaren turbo grand prix
89 turbo t/a

thats the formula they never shouldve abandoned. as you get later on in the 90s pontiac loses focus (as such most gm brands did) and just started shoving 60 degree motors in everything....causing the cookie cutter effect that gm is now trying to ditch

I have one thing to say here.

I'm sick of the GTO being called a failure. It was slated for a 3 year run from the damn beginning and it did f'ing well once the 6.0 was offered just like Al said.

People are all piss and vinegar about that car because they were seeing concept shots of the retro mustang to come and cried a tear when they didnt get it from their GTO. The GTO gave every late gen granam/granprix enthusiast (and apparently theres quite a few) what they wanted, a rwd manual v8 modern styled pontiac.

the "HUMBLER" they did on the 70 GTO was pretty cool, i dont kno why they didnt try that with some of the other cars like the trans am, camaro, or chevelle

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28 (Post 601775)

Imminent failure of Camaro? I must have missed the memo of selling 6 thousand models in its first full month was the first sign of death?

First off, fellas and fellettes, #1 Pontiac owner is female, between the ages of 25 and 40.
So you are torn between you fan base of muscle car fans, who from 74 to 02 only really had 1 car to drool over, the actuall Pontiac owner, and the future of the market.
Pontiac was a full line brand, and was always a full line brand. The Aztek, design wise, was a total failure.
The idea of an active crossover, a sporty people hauler...well...lets see
BMW X3 and X5
Porsche Cheyene
Audi Q5
MB ML320/350/500/550/63
Infinity FX35/45-47/50
Nissian Murano
Ford Edge
Mazda CX-7 and CX-9
Toyota Venza
Upcoming Honda Accord based 5 seater CUV

Just a few off the top of my head
yeahhhhhh...lets say GM missed the boat, big time. Problem is, not only did they have a ticket, they were FIRST IN LINE!
They botched it with trying to wrap a Trans Am face over a Minivan chassis.

Anyone want to know the #1 car Mustang owners were looking at the time of thier purchase, outside of the Mustang?
The Pontiac Grand Am. Not Trans Am, not Camaro...Grand Am.

Ok, you must not understand english. I am supporting the idea of the car, not the car itself. I dont like the design, but its the idea, the function, the concept....that was great.
The chassis and ****** design work was what made it a failure.

Pontiac never intended to target BMW owners.
They wanted BMW's idea of pure driving performance. Handling, braking, feel, design...THATS WHAT THEY WANTED!!
But like you, and many others, you interped the comment Lutz made as he wanted to become a BMW fighter.
Why they would LOVE the idea of having a BMW owner trading in his 5 series for a G8, the idea is to make thier cars follow the BMW philosphy.

The Aztek was one of the first crossovers, but sure as hell wasnt the first successful one, not by a long shot.
Lynn Myers sure wasnt the best person put in charge at Pontiac, but she had some forsight. Maybe it was wasted on a brand like Pontaic

The people who put the nail in the coffin are the same people that brought it there. Pontiac, like so many other older brands, could never run away from its past, and its owners who cling to it. Lynn Myers was trying to make cars for people that actually bought Pontiacs who might actually return and buy more cars.

Coming up with a good idea and then not giving people what they want is a classic indication of not knowing your market properly. The idea of a crossover was a good one, but only a few people want a hideous POS with a tent in the back.

where did this vid go. I wanted to show itto someone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alamantia (Post 756775)

where did this vid go. I wanted to show itto someone.

x2:|

it went to the same place pontiac did...