it kind of does have something to do with it when he is personally on a commercial saying they repaid their loan back in full and really all they did in simple form was take money from one pocket it and put it in another. I'm speaking from an outside the circle POV. People don't like to be lied to.

They gave back money that was loaned to them, because they dont need it.
Call it paying it back, or whatever you want, but GM no longer needs extra funds from the Goverment, and that in the end is the big news.
Of course you can spin it in any way to make it look poor. In the end, GM is becoming a profitable company, and despite a drastic move to do what was done, we now seem to have two strong automotive corperations still in the US, instead of what would have happend. We will only know how it turns out down the road, but as of right now it seems GM has its bearings and will become profitable for the future.

Not exactly. They took tax payer dollars and in return traded it for a virtual percentage of the company, not cash. They took actual money and in return traded paper that is currently worth nothing. And if GM ever goes public, is the gov going to turn around and hand out those stocks to the tax payers that paid for it? Nope. GM got free money at all of our expenses. And when the head of the Senate Oversight Committee for the TARP program goes on TV and says that GM is full of ****, I'm kind of inclined to believe her over some GM kool-aid propaganda. I also take it as a personal insult that GM went on TV with those commercials saying they paid everything back with interest with a big smile and a cheap suit, meanwhile they're laughing all the way to the bank.

wheres that watercooler when you need it :lol:

There is no doubt that GM got free money, but that "free" is debatable.
They have now been saddled with the "Goverment Motors" moniker for damn near a year now. Tea Baggers and other right wing, anti-Obama fans have stood fast by not buying GM product. They had to cut four brands, and thousands of jobs loose. They went through sevearl very public trials in front of goverment officials.

I want to hear more about this virtual stock stuff.

im sure youll hear it somewhere around the office tomorrow :lol:

She said that GM instead of giving back money, offered the gov guaranteed stock options and another percentage of the company. GM then goes on TV and says "we paid back the loan with interest!". So the gov goes on TV and says uhh... NO.

That's way better than they deserve. After 6 years of no profit and almost 90 billion dollar loss no business should exist.

I dont get that, since the goverment already owns a certain percentage? Why would you buy more shares of a company, when you already own a controling intrest of it already? Unless its to make more money in the end, I dont see how the hell it works. If this is the case, then there is some **** going down. She was on Colbert Report a few nights ago, and she was talking about it. She didnt say anything in contrast, but she made a face when Colbert said that "GM paid back the loan."


So put a few more thousand people out of jobs and possibly worsen the automotive sector world wide, not to mention the job market here in the US because GM didnt make any money over the last few years?
Then how do you support any of the bail outs? If you dont, then you would have been perfectly fine letting the world as we know it, spiral out of control?
While I dont agree 100% on bail outs and handing out my money, I sure as hell dont want to see this country fall apart based on a few people making major decisions, especially when some of them were betting that it would fail anyway.
What I dont get is why dont people support more regulation? Do you support more regulation?

This all could be just a moot point, and as a fan of GM, I do hope that thier IPO takes off, and the goverment sees most if not all thier money back.

Tea Baggers, how Keith Olbermann like...you seriously are a sheep sometimes. Do you honestly expect people to run out and buy a GM car right now? Some people REGARDLESS of political affiliation didn't agree with TARP and other forms of bailouts....but yet you expect them spend THEIR money on products they don't want? It's so damn arrogant to EXPECT people to go out and buy a GM product merely based on the fact that they're in trouble. It's called free-will and a supposed free market, if GM can't hack it against other companies then that's their problem, not ours. GM, IMO, makes better cars than a Toyota or Nissan but do you wonder why they can't make a profit? Do you want WHY they have the stigma they carry? Their PR sucks moose ****, they've ****ed over countless customers, supplies etc. How many dealerships/supplies/creditors got ass-raped with no KY through the bankruptcy proceedings? Do you know or do you not want to talk about that because reality is hard to face?

There's more to a company than its product and that's where GM fails miserably. I'm sure you'll spin it that I'm just some wacko Conservative who hates GM or that it's just some big conspiracy against the poor victim GM...the fact is A LOT of people are still mad about TARP and it's absolutely ludicrous that GM would make such bold statements that they paid back ALL of the loans when it's coming out that they haven't. That right there is enough to make me never EVER buy a product of theirs again. It's further proof they've learned nothing.

So what's next? Is it the "tea-bagger's" fault GM is still losing money?

***For the record I'm not part of this Tea Bag movement, it's mainly a sham of a movement with no direction. While they bring up some VERY valid points they offer no alternatives, just whine, bitch, whine, and bitch some more. I just find it funny you echo what douche's on MSNBC say.****

I just like the Tea Bagger moniker, thats all.

I never said I expect people to buy GM vehicles, ever. You have full right to buy what you want. I just stated it as a fact that GM has to overcome that. I didnt like how the Senators of states where there are foreign automakers plants tried to kill not only GM and Chrysler, but Ford as well. That is a whole different argument.

I never said you have to buy or you must buy GM or even American. I would rather you did, but its up to you. I think that GM offers some really great vehicles, but if people are willing to just disreguard them because of goverment intervention, I just find that narrow minded considering they stepped in to make sure that Americans can keep their jobs without having them all sign up for unemployment. You could turn around and call me narrow minded, but believe it or not I do actually like cars from other brands, and they arent American!

Thank the new Camaro for that...those things are everywhere.

thank the new camaro for what???

Through a bizarre coincidence, I met a guy last night who's an auditor who oversees large corporation financial interactions and we got to talking about GM. He wouldn't tell me if he was involved in the deal, but he was very knowledgeable about the GM deal to the point where he was referencing documents and reports that GM was handing over to the gov. He confirmed the story about GM trading debt for stock options and corporate percentages and went further. He explained that this was a premeditated move on GM's part and the point is to first acquire cash to spend and then to offer virtual stocks in return which requires no actual cash to return to the gov. The move is twofold; it boosts GM's credit and it puts GM in a position to now go get a loan from a bank for even more money, which is exactly what he said GM will do next. This will start the cycle over again. Once GM can't repay the next bank loan, they'll go to the gov for another TARP loan and since the gov now owns an even bigger percentage of the company, they'll be more inclined to hand out another loan, thus giving GM even more cash for free. He also said that once they get the bank loan they'll roll that loaned cash into an account and fudge the books and call that loan money profit and he's predicting GM in Q3 and Q4 of this year will declare a roughly $4-5 billion profit per quarter and that will actually be reflecting the money they got from the loan minus the actual loss they will have that'll be taken out of the loan.

He also went into detail about GM's accounting and operating details. He said that GM is so bloated and inefficient that in order for GM to stay afloat the way they are structured now, they'd have to sell 17 million new cars every year. That's roughly one new car per every fifth household every year. He said now that the gov has a controlling stake in GM, GM is now MORE likely to be inefficient because now the gov has a financial interest in not letting them fail.

I call ******** on everything.

Starting from the bottom up, the entire MARKET doesnt sell 17 million cars. At its peak, it only reached 15 million in total sales for everyone.
GM's original plan when it asked for money was that they could be profitable selling 20% of the cars @ a GM projected 12-13 million total cars sales a year. The government did not like that, and that was one of the reasons GM had to come back to the table with a revised plan.
I believe the American market only sold in 2009 about 10 million cars, about 2/3's off its peak.
So I think he is pulling numbers out of his ass. GM would most deffinatly be profitable if they sold 17 million cars a year, they would then have at current sales numbers, over 120% market share. 17 million cars is ********, no one will ever sell 17 million cars. If GM, Toyota and Honda combined to form ONE brand, they wouldnt sell 17 million cars.

As for the comment about GM not being able to pay the banks back, thats saying that GM is not going to be making a profit at all.
GM was planning on making a profit as of Jan 1st, 2010 when they made the VEBA contract with the UAW, saving them about 10 billion dollars a year. That was deal was made back in 2007.
GM has cut a many workers, as well as an assload of middle managers. They removed 4 brands and shut down a lot of dealers (some of them fought back and only a few won).
GM will need money and banks to loan them money to move forward, there is no illusion about that. Hell, the banks own the majority stake in Ford now! Ford is making money again right? No one is claiming they are just shifting money around? Their sales numbers are up, and so are GM's, so why would GM not be making money, but Ford is?

Government has no control over the day to day operations or the product planning inside GM. Has it effected some of GM's future products? Im sure some have been tweeked or moved around, but Id say some were due to the fact that they went through BK and have been working on a limited cash flow. I can think of at least 2 programs that have been shelved due to funding while coming up with more affordable and profitable options.
All of GM's new cars will be made for a profit, and they will make sure that the profit margin is there. Its a main reason the Aveo production will be moved to the US, and away from Korea because in the past GM would have to either sell a boat load, or lose money on every one.

I have no qualms about GM still being bloated, but its a massive company with 100 years of garbage still stuck inside. Ed Whitacre has been running through them, trying to find weak spots, and has fired many people.

I don't know anything about this stuff I just wish they didn't close Pontiac. That's all I have to say about that.

All I know is one way or another GM will never completely shut down. Not only does the government have a lot invested in them but they depend on GM for DoD vehicles and no I do not mean just HMMWV's. For anyone that's been to Iraq or Kuwait you know that 90% of all the civilian vehicles there are Gm products. From construction contractors to food service to supply facility workers and so forthe they use Chevy trucks both Silverado and the LUV. I'm not tryiong to start a debate because like I said I don't know anything about this kind of stuff I am just letting people know what I have seen and my thoughts on it.

Al, the point is that GM is so inefficient that they would HAVE TO sell 17 million cars per year in order to stay afloat. It's no big secret that corporations cook the books. Last year GM wrote off $13+ billion in pension money (how's that for taking care of it's employees?) and called that profit. They DID NOT make $13+ billion in sales, they just called the write off a profit. Now same with the trade off of company percentages for debt. The lack of a debt becomes a profit. Did GM sell 6 million cars last quarter? You can only trade off write offs for debt to a certain point until the actual differential between sales to overhead costs comes out again when GM reports record losses again. Like the guy mentioned, GM will now apply for large bank loans and call that influx of unearned cash a profit as well.

lol that reminds me of the old cartoon gag of two guys digging a hole and their throwing their dirt into the other guys hole :nod:

Then what exactly did that mean? If you don't expect people buy GM or whatever then why say this? So what exactly did you mean by this? So the "tea-baggers" should buy GM products or STFU? Should be the part of the solution instead of the problem? Is it their fault GM is full of fail? Or was this just another opportunity to slam those that doesn't share your point of view?

I'm not trying to start trouble but I thought it was odd that you'd say something like that in a criticizing manner yet you say people should buy what the want...kind of...odd. People not wanting to buy GM products due to them receiving our money is absolutely a valid reason to look elsewhere. While I personally don't think that way the reason has a lot of a validity to it. Again, I'll say it again....if it turns out there's something fishy going on their books and loan repayment I'll never buy a new GM product again, I don't care if they want to give me a new SS for $100.

Al you cant compare ford to GM, just for the main reason that aford didnt take a bail out. If ford fails the only people taht hurt (besides employees obviously) are the people that willing invested in the company. The American people as a whole were forced without asking to invest in GM. I mean i don't have to explain my self in this thread you know how i feel and we've had numerous discussions on this topic, but i will say that its a huge **** story, because like said about unless they become very profitable they are just going to keep borrowing whether its from a bank or the govt and when will it stop?

Tea Baggers should STFU, but for a totaly different reason. They dont want to buy GM cars, so be it. I find it silly that if the Tea baggers are so American, and so for American people and Buy USA, etc etc, then they would rather buy Toyota products over a GM product because of the goverments investment. When I bought my Malibu, I sure as hell looked at other brands, and there is a lot to pick from. But with several factors tied in, one being an American made vehicle, made by a brand I love, not to mention is a pretty nice car and drives very well and offerd everything I wanted.
People are not making that decision and I guess that fustraits me more, but to each thier own.

Well thats up to you, and to be honest I think that if GM was caught doing some seriously shady stuff with the books (above normal big corp shenanigans) then I think that will turn me off as well.

I can compare Ford to GM. Ford also recieved money from the goverment in nearly the same way GM did, through a DoE "bailout" if you will. Its an intrest free, pay it back whenever you want loan that has no strings attached.
The difference between Ford and GM is that Ford sold its soul to the banks,a nd GM sold its soul to the goverment. Ford just did it before the banks dropped funding and Ford's credit went into the **** house. In fact, Ford's move to mortage the whole company was seen as a very risky and possibly very harmful move in late 2007 when they had no new product, no vision, nothing while GM was turning out better and better product.
Also, the investment into GM was made prior to this current adminstration so I hope you are not tying it down to the current President.


To Steve's comment about writing down 13 billion dollars, that was part of the VEBA contract. GM and the UAW was praised and still should deserve praise for what they did with reducing massive amounts of money pouring into benifits. Our current state government could learn something from it. You think the teachers union in a little state like NJ is bad? They got the UAW to budge on a LOT of stuff.
The UAW and GM employees have a very nice benifits package

did they give you an employee discount for the malibu? :lol:

It's not the details of the deal I was referring to, it's that GM keeps reporting debt write offs as profit when in reality sales are not generating these profits. The point is that eventually you run out of debt write offs and bank loans and the record losses will once again return.

Easy solution - ask for another bailout.

Someone asked me if I was against all bailout - yes, if I remember correctly, I was. I surely am now. They already established a bad precedent, when that stupid volcano erupted the airlines were asking the .gov to be compensated for their "downtime" and their lost revenue.. WTF kinda business is that?

GM hasnt posted a profit, so that makes no sense either?
Last month, GM sold more cars with 4 brands then they did with 8 a year ago.
There is a 33% gain in Retail sales across the 4 brands.

Everything you have said about GM could easily be said for Ford as well? Ford could just be using the loans from banks to say that they are making money.
That is pure speculation and total ********. The guy should have lost all credability when he said that GM had to sell 17 million cars in order to be profitable. GM, as of 2 years ago, could be profitable if they sold 25% of 15 million total cars sold in the US. To say that GM now has to sell more cars then the current market has been buying is insane, and I take whatever that guy said to you as nonsense.
You dont want to believe me, thats fine. Im just a GM fanboi that has no idea what Im talking about.
GM will just fall apart in 6 months anyway.