So GM finally realized the new "GTO" sucks...
 

Good to see GM finally realizing this. Now they need to just stop dicking around and bring back the Firebird.

:stupid:

lol
let's see. the US was the last market in the world the platform was being used it, it doesn't meet upcoming safety standards, but some desk jockey critic knows that it is being dropped because of questionable styling. lol
you will also note the end of the article says "for now". a similar vehicle will reappear, and it WON'T be a firebird.

Oh I know there wont be a Firebird... case that would make sense. :)

don't confuse economic sense with your wants.
building 2 cars on the same platform to compete for the same market segment is foolish. that is how oldsmobile and plymouth both vanished, a lack of original products. don't think for a second that GM would risk the same mistake with the excitement division just for the sake of a name plate.

but it wont be the 5th gen fbody if it comes out, wouldnt it be 2nd gen zeta?

But dont get me wrong Ill take a black 5thgen trans am, with a ls7!!!!

HA. If its foolish to have two cars off the same platform them y did they do it from 1967 all the way to 2002. I thinks it was cool to have the two cars together. Having a lil GM rivalry goin on.

They just accept anyone into college nowadays, don't they :roll:

Same platform AND SMALL MARKET SEGMENT.

Hm, if it's so foolish why did they do it for so long while they sold less and less cars, then give two of them (for the sake of this argument) the axe??? I don't know, selling less cars because your cars are competing with themselves is a good thing right??? Especially in the sports car market, I mean more people buy sports cars than SUVs and midsize sedans right?!?! And the firebird would piss all over the Camaro just like it has in the past, since it was selling less units it totally pissed all over the Camaro right?

I'm not talking about sales. I see ur point. Either way i still think chevy should just go all out with the vette, even more than they are, and give Pontiac the f-body.

So do you enjoy bending over for David Hasselhoff?

Ok. so david hasselhoff has suttin to do with this? Explain how? Plz?! Hey kasey u kno a kid named John D'Eletto? he goes tyo willy P was going out with a girl named Laura.

Denial and trying to word your way around the question, huh... we all know you wish you were a certain 3rd gen from a certain TV series...

and no i don't think so

Of course sales were down, what was the last time you saw an f-body commercial more than once a year? Pretty hard to sell something when you dont advertise it.

And I think two cars on the same platform IS a good idea. Both cars appeal to different people. They have different options and look totally different. If anyone says the Firebird wasnt succesful, they are full of ****. The only reason for the demise of the f-body was GM's lack of advertising and buyers incentives. Period. Dont pull out the "noone wants sports cars" because look at the Mustang. Its not about competing with each other, its about choice... the buyers are out there, youve just gotta go get em.

Heres a scenario:
Someone wants a sports car. They dont like the Camaro, they think the Mustang is ok, but they love the Firebird. Well the Firebird no longer exists, so what do they buy? The Mustang, and GM loses a sale.

I mean christ, its not like they actually had a hard time selling the cars as it was, imagine if they actually tried.

it comes down to the name game really.
Corvette is a segment unto itself anymore. as the best bang for the buck line of sports car in the world. that is a large gap from the twenty-something value performance group that the name Camaro appeals to both the mind and wallet of.
while the Firebird was always the styling leader, the Camaro was the side that maintained the competitive and performance image more strictly and gained a broader recognition base as a result.
pontiac also has the advantage of the best known muscle car name in history on it's side to consider, the GTO. with a chevy Camaro for someone to buy as a younger and not as well financed performance car, then a pontiac GTO for those who still want the performance but need a bit more luxary and can afford it, and the CTS-V and Corvette to top it off for those who can afford a pricey weekend fun-mobile and want every drop of performance that can come with it.
it is a food chain of performance that, unfortunately, doesn't leave room for two cars to compete with in the same company for the same segment.

if you can find some way to show that enough units could possibly be sold to justify all of the product development, tooling, assembly line development, and marketing of two cars in the same segment please let us know.
the system does not work based on getting every possible sale. it is based on moving the most units with at the lowest possible costs and maximum margain.
if you think jsut offering a firebird along with the camaro woudl do anything to hurt the mustang you are mistaken. even at the peak of f-body popularity the mustang moved nearly as many units as the camaro and firebird combined. subtract out the extra expense of all the double stamping and assembly facilities and you can see why the mustang is much more profitable for ford than the f-body ever was for GM.
it isn't a lack of love for the firebird that prevents it's return. it is freshman level economics.

It comes down to this. The Firebird and Camaro split the budget for the Fbody, both had to share advertising money, etc etc. Having 2 cars off the same chassis in teh same market, especialy in one that is very small.

Actualy, you want to know what the #1 car Mustang owners also looked at durring the purchase of there Mustang? It was the Pontiac Grand Am coupe.

And more facts, the 2004 GTO sold more units the Trans Am's did in 2002, and sold more units then Mustang Cobra did in 2004.

First off, the GTO doesn't suck. The car takes the cake in performance over just about any f-body ever built...

GM didn't market the late 4th gens because they knew the f-body wasn't going to be around much longer. By 1997, GM knew the cars were living on borrowed time.

The best thing to have would be both cars back and selling well. But the more I look at it, it's not going to work. The Camaro really was the Firebird's worst enemy. Everyone says about the 4th gens that the Firebird/Trans Am was better looking and more stylish than the Camaro. So why didn't people buy more Firebirds? Because the Camaro was more affordable. I've met some Camaro owners and they said they wanted a firebird or T/A originally, but the Camaro was cheaper.

njspeeder hit the nail right on the head.

Are you kidding me? I mean, seriously.

$31k, 400hp, smooth lines, and better handling than any factory f-body ever built.

FTW!!!11

and before we get into the whole "it looks like a grand prix" thing, take a look at some old pictures. you will note that in 1964 the grand prix, GTO, tempest, le mans, and even teh bonneville had strikingly similar lines.

Id take a black on black LS2 GTO anyday of the week over a 4th gen camaro.

Well, if you look at the last F-bodies and the current GTO, the numbers swing higher in GTO's favor. GTO does 0-60 in what, 4.7 seconds I believe. The 4th gens were somewhere in the low 5s. The solid rear vs. IRS may change some things in the quater mile, but overall I think you'd have to say GTO. And I'm just talking stock production cars here. I know there's the Yenko's, and all the other rare supercars of past years, but stock for stock...is there any you can think of? Maybe the SDs?

GTO is a different type of sports coupe. It deffinatly rides a lot nicer, yet still gives you the performance and handling that you expect out of a 400hp car. Its engine is plenty powerful, its interior outclasses ANYTHING from GM, forget Fbody. Pound for pound, the GTO is a much better car then the Trans Am was.

I remember getting into a huge interweb fight with this guy on GMI. He bitched and moaned that the GTO was trash, it was a dog, it was total crap. I told him time and time again to test drive it and your mind will change. Over and over he would say the same ****, and I would just tell him to drive it. This went on for about a year, untill one day he made a thread about the 04 GTO he just bought. He test drove it, loved it, great power, great everything, and bought one for about 28k after everything said and done. I deffinatly think that I am gunna get a 04 or 05 GTO when the lease on the Maxx is done.

It's definately more comfortable than the Fbody, that's what I like about the GTO. However a '04 GTO is NOT faster than a LS1 4thgen, sorry. I've also been in a LS2 GTO and while it's quick it's still a low 13 second car, just like the Fbody.

I'd buy a LS2 GTO for the comfort and performance but it still isn't leaps and bounds over a LS1 4th in performance...I really beg to differ.

I'm still waiting to drive a GTO, but my neighbor has an '05 and I've had the luxury of riding in it a few times. I can say between driving my Firehawk and being in the GTO, you feel a big difference in the goat. You feel the 400 horses through out the whole car. It constantly plants you in your seat. The car feels completely solid, not rickety like the 4th gens tend to. The car is drunk on torque, corners on a dime, and has great stopping performance. We were at a stop, and my neighbor showed me how the car "sits." I don't know how it does it, but just before the car comes off the line, it lowers its rear a few inches so the rear wheels get a better grip before it launches.

I just don't see GTO being completely dead. When Bob Lutz came to GM, his first order of business was GTO. He even went out to Australia himself and drove the Monaro to make sure it was a worthy car to carry the GTO badge. I'd really like to see them wait a year or two, get it up to standards and redesign it a little bit and give it a big unveiling in Detroit like they did with Camaro.